"Boron Elgar" wrote :
> "Michael Kuettner" wrote:
>>Where was i lying, you dumb **** ?
> Dumb? Because I accurately and factually accuse *your* country of the
> bigotry that you attempted to smear MY country with?
Dumber than a brick-shithouse, in fact.
So your country hasn't invaded two countries under Bush , killed
most native Americans, put the rest into reservates, enslaved
and killed Blacks, put USAn citizens of Japanese descent into
concentration camps in WW II ? Wow.
Then there's Vietnam, the putsch in Iran which installed the Shah
while desposing an elected government.
The list goes on, btw.
All the time being a state - the USA.
From 1938-45 there was no state of Austria.
Got that, you dumb **** ?
> ****? Sweetie, I am sure you wouldn't know a **** if it sat on your
> face after you paid for it. Guys as *******ly and ignorant as you
> don't get laid without a cash in hand.
<snort> Dream on. You really seem to "think" that your foul mouth
powered by your delusions of adaequacy will get you somewhere ...
>>> And pig-****er.
>
>>No, I don't do pigs like you.
> Sorry, honey-lamb, I'm kosher. Besides. I have a real American man who
You're anything but kosher.
> takes care of me just fine.
Oh, so real American men do pigs ? Good to know.
> Look to your own history to make you case?
I know my history rather well; contrary to an undereducated
USAn bitch ...
> What's that? You have no evidence whatsoever that you come from a
> country that suffers from deeply rooted racism and bigotry? Oh, damn
> shame...
Nope; I don't come from the USA.
>
>>> Boron
>
>>Should be moron ...
> Really, care to match IQ scores? Incomes? I bet you'd lose Yodel-Boy.
Your IQ can't be measured, my dear. One has to dig for it.
Now to your link, you "wonder-brain" :
>
>
>>> Persecution and Deportation of Austrian Jews, 1938-1945
>
>>Yep, that happened _after_ the "Anschluss".
> You seem to have re-written history's take of Austria and its
> relationship to the Reich. Dream on. Pull out your Kurt Waldheim
> t-shirt and wear it proudly.
So you claim that that happened before the Anschluß ?
Come on, cite someting, pea-brain.
And learn to read posts, you little moron.
> Let's skip right to the modern history.
Oh, let's do !
> Go read up on what the Council of Europe thinks about Austrian
> treatment of minorities. THEN come back and try your self righteous
> bullshit on someone you can try to bully. I come with facts. Get over
> it. You're an incompetent spewer who cannot logically or truthfully
> back up anything.
The Council of Europe ? Oh, they put some stars on their website
and modelled it after the EU logo.
Little morons like you fall for that anytime.
Try to click on "Who we are".
You come with facts ? Your little USAn brain would implode ...
Rather elusive texts. "Founding fathers" returns an "Erreur 404".
They can't even get their website right, let alone their "facts".
It's a little hangout to feed some party-soldiers of various countries.
Austria's a member, btw.
<snip shit>
Here's the document moron was referring to :
<http://hudoc.ecri.coe.int/XMLEcri/ENGLISH/Cycle_04/04_CbC_eng/AUT-CbC-IV-2010-002-ENG.pdf>
Some little annotations :
Contrary to the USA, we have no green card policy. Meaning :
Contrary to the USA, we have to take the subeducated and
useless. Those suck at the public tit (meaning : I have to pay for
them).
Since some practice living like this in the 3rd generation by now,
we refuse to allow even more unwanted aliens.
Contrary to the illegal Mexicans in the USA, our "asylants" refuse
to work; our social security (which the USA lacks), pays for them.
Those who chose to work and become Austrians, are Austrians -
regardless of skin colour. Google for "David Alaba", as a famous
example. Or look at the phonebook of Vienna for lesser known
examples.
Those notes about "extreme violence against immigrants" lack
any cites; the most notable "extreme violence" over here is
commited by Turkish "Austrians" against Kurdish "Austrians".
Or by Tschetschens massakring Ex-Yugos for control over the
bordellos here.
All those crimes are - of course - Austrian ones.
Those are just some of the little details not stated in the "report".
Another nice example is the statement, that immigrants have
lesser chances for being educated.
Heck, our schools are not prepared to teach German to aliens.
USAn schools don't do that, either.
But anyone interested should just read the PDF of the do-gooders
above and form their own opinions.
> Nice try.....too bad the Austrian populace, like you, can't seem to
> get the hang of tolerance. Look to your own house before you toss
> stones at mine, you son of a bitch.
Oh, did I hit too hard, you poor dumb USAn moron ?
> Now let that all sink in and put a knot in your lederhosen, which I
> am sure are regularly filled mit schlag, you foaming, chauvinistic
> snob.
Shove a flagpole up your **** and masturbate while
humming your shitty anthem, you dumb ****.
That's the American way, after all.
Now, **** off or bring some cites that there was an Austria
between 1938 and 1945.
I won't hold my breath ...

On 25/09/2012 2:02 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
OL...he *is* rather fixated on my vagina, isn't he?
>>
>> It's another Austrian gene pool problem. It's best they don't breed
>> elsewhere.
>>
>
> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
> the Resistance during the war.
>
> Personal revisionist history.

So true. I knew someone who was in the Danish resistance. He really
was. He was one of the people who helped my father to escape after his
plane was shot down over Denmark. In fact, they had a clandestine radio
transmitter in their house. When I said something to him once about the
number of people in the Danish Resistance... IIRC the number I heard was
35,000. He said he would like to know where the hell they were when they
needed the help.

Then there is Holland, which sadly acknowledged that there were far more
Dutch who joined the Freikorps than the Resistance.

Austria OTOH..... most accounts show that the Germans were welcomed with
open arms, that there was more support for the Nazis there than in much
of Germany. Yet, we are now being told that they were invaded ???? There
was no fighting. It's ironic that people make cracks about the French,
but they did put up a fight. It lasted longer than the fight the Poles
put up. The Austrians seemed to have been more interested in fighting
for the Nazis than against them.

"Dave Smith" wrote :

>> On 25/09/2012 2:02 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> OL...he *is* rather fixated on my vagina, isn't he?

Nope; I have seen a photo of you. Rather disgusting broad.

>>
>>>> It's another Austrian gene pool problem. It's best they don't breed
>>>> elsewhere.

Our "gene pool" is OK. The dumb ones went abroad.

>>
>
>> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
>> the Resistance during the war.
>
>> Personal revisionist history.

Ah, Moron again.
Just for the record : There should have been several thousand
death sentences for Austrians supporting the Nazis.
The Cold War put an end to justice against those swine.

<snip>

> Austria OTOH..... most accounts show that the Germans were welcomed with
> open arms, that there was more support for the Nazis there than in much
> of Germany. Yet, we are now being told that they were invaded ???? There
> was no fighting. It's ironic that people make cracks about the French,
> but they did put up a fight. It lasted longer than the fight the Poles
> put up. The Austrians seemed to have been more interested in fighting
> for the Nazis than against them.

<snort>
I've given some pointers, you ignorant little twit.
Another little hint : We've asked the UK for a treaty against German
usurpation. They refused. Then we got Italy. That pact was finished
when Hitler and Mussolini formed their pact.
All those things go over your pointy little head, right ?

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:07:35 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 25/09/2012 2:02 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>OL...he *is* rather fixated on my vagina, isn't he?
>>>
>>> It's another Austrian gene pool problem. It's best they don't breed
>>> elsewhere.
>>>
>>
>> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
>> the Resistance during the war.
>>
>> Personal revisionist history.
>
>So true. I knew someone who was in the Danish resistance. He really
>was. He was one of the people who helped my father to escape after his
>plane was shot down over Denmark. In fact, they had a clandestine radio
>transmitter in their house. When I said something to him once about the
>number of people in the Danish Resistance... IIRC the number I heard was
>35,000. He said he would like to know where the hell they were when they
>needed the help.

You mentioned about your dad getting shot down before. It must make
for a very impressive story. You should write it up.
>
>Then there is Holland, which sadly acknowledged that there were far more
>Dutch who joined the Freikorps than the Resistance.

It is only recently, within the past 5 years or so, that I first
learned of this.
>
>Austria OTOH..... most accounts show that the Germans were welcomed with
>open arms, that there was more support for the Nazis there than in much
>of Germany. Yet, we are now being told that they were invaded ???? There
>was no fighting. It's ironic that people make cracks about the French,
>but they did put up a fight. It lasted longer than the fight the Poles
>put up. The Austrians seemed to have been more interested in fighting
>for the Nazis than against them.
>
I agree.

Boron

On 25/09/2012 4:54 PM, Michael Kuettner wrote:
>
>
> "Dave Smith" wrote :
>
>>> On 25/09/2012 2:02 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>> OL...he *is* rather fixated on my vagina, isn't he?
>
> Nope; I have seen a photo of you. Rather disgusting broad.
>
>>>
>>>>> It's another Austrian gene pool problem. It's best they don't breed
>>>>> elsewhere.
>
> Our "gene pool" is OK. The dumb ones went abroad.
>
>>>
>>
>>> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
>>> the Resistance during the war.
>>
>>> Personal revisionist history.
>
> Ah, Moron again.
> Just for the record : There should have been several thousand
> death sentences for Austrians supporting the Nazis.
> The Cold War put an end to justice against those swine.
>
> <snip>
>
>> Austria OTOH..... most accounts show that the Germans were welcomed
>> with open arms, that there was more support for the Nazis there than
>> in much of Germany. Yet, we are now being told that they were invaded
>> ???? There was no fighting. It's ironic that people make cracks about
>> the French, but they did put up a fight. It lasted longer than the
>> fight the Poles put up. The Austrians seemed to have been more
>> interested in fighting for the Nazis than against them.
>
> <snort>
> I've given some pointers, you ignorant little twit.
> Another little hint : We've asked the UK for a treaty against German
> usurpation. They refused. Then we got Italy. That pact was finished
> when Hitler and Mussolini formed their pact.
> All those things go over your pointy little head, right ?
>
>

Was that the agreement about the crisis in the Balkans???? Oh no. That
was when the British wanted them to come to a conference to discuss the
problems but Austria was not interested. They were too buys trying to
get Germany to threaten France so that they could move on the Balkans
and not worry about the Russians. The Treaty of Versailles prohibited
Germany from annexing Austria. I don't know what you expected Britain to
do, or why you would expect them to do anything, since Austria was one
of the main aggressors in the mess than turned into WWI.

Is there any footage of Italians greeting the German soldiers as the
Austrians were?

From an email I recently received:

1938 Austria - Scary piece of history!!

Kitty Werthmann is 85 years old.

America truly is the Greatest Country in the World. By: Kitty Werthmann

What I am about to tell you is something you*ve probably never heard or
will ever read in history books.

I believe that I am an eyewitness to history. I cannot tell you that
Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history. We
elected him by a landslide - 98% of the vote. I*ve never read that in
any American publications. Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in
with his tanks and took Austria by force.

In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our
workforce was unemployed. We had 25% inflation and 25% bank loan
interest rates.

Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young
people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they
didn*t want to work; there simply weren*t any jobs. My mother was a
Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we
cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry
people - about 30 daily.

The Communist Party and the National Socialist Party were fighting each
other. Blocks and blocks of cities like Vienna, Linz, and Graz were
destroyed. The people became desperate and petitioned the government to
let them decide what kind of government they wanted.

We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been
in power since 1933. We had been told that they didn*t have unemployment
or crime, and they had a high standard of living. Nothing was ever said
about persecution of any group -- Jewish or otherwise. We were led to
believe that everyone was happy. We wanted the same way of life in
Austria. We were promised that a vote for Hitler would mean the end of
unemployment and help for the family. Hitler also said that businesses
would be assisted, and farmers would get their farms back. Ninety-eight
percent of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany and have
Hitler for our ruler.

We were overjoyed, and, for three days, we danced in the streets and had
candlelight parades. The new government opened up big field kitchens and
everyone was fed.

After the election, German officials were appointed, and like a miracle,
we suddenly had law and order. Three or four weeks later, everyone was
employed. The government made sure that a lot of work was created
through the Public Work Service.

Hitler decided we should have equal rights for women. Before this, it
was a custom that married Austrian women did not work outside the home.
An able-bodied husband would be looked down on if he couldn*t support
his family. Many women in the teaching profession were elated that they
could retain the jobs they previously had been required to give up for
marriage.

Hitler Targets Education -Eliminates Religious Instruction for Children:

Our education was nationalized. I attended a very good public school.
The population was predominantly Catholic, so we had religion in our
schools. The day we elected Hitler (March 13, 1938), I walked into my
schoolroom to find the crucifix replaced by Hitler*s picture hanging
next to a Nazi flag. Our teacher, a very devout woman, stood up and told
the class we wouldn*t pray or have religion anymore. Instead, we sang
"Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles," and had physical education.

Sunday became National Youth Day with compulsory attendance. Parents
were not pleased about the sudden change in curriculum. They were told
that if they did not send us, they would receive a stiff letter of
warning the first time. The second time they would be fined the
equivalent of $300, and the third time they would be subject to jail.
The first two hours consisted of political indoctrination. The rest of
the day we had sports. As time went along, we loved it. Oh, we had so
much fun and got our sports equipment free. We would go home and
gleefully tell our parents about the wonderful time we had.

My mother was very unhappy. When the next term started, she took me out
of public school and put me in a convent. I told her she couldn*t do
that and she told me that someday, when I grew up, I would be grateful.
There was a very good curriculum, but hardly any fun - no sports, and no
political indoctrination. I hated it at first, but felt I could tolerate
it. Every once in a while, on holidays, I went home. I would go back to
my old friends and ask what was going on and what they were doing. Their
loose lifestyle was very alarming to me. They lived without religion. By
that time, unwed mothers were glorified for having a baby for Hitler. It
seemed strange to me that our society changed so suddenly. As time went
along, I realized what a great deed my mother did so that I wasn*t
exposed to that kind of humanistic philosophy.

Equal Rights Hits Home:

In 1939, the war started and a food bank was established. All food was
rationed and could only be purchased using food stamps. At the same
time, a full-employment law was passed which meant, if you didn*t work,
you didn*t get a ration card, and if you didn*t have a card, you starved
to death. Women who stayed home to raise their families didn*t have any
marketable skills and often had to take jobs more suited for men.

Soon after this, the draft was implemented. It was compulsory for young
people, male and female, to give one year to the labor corps. During the
day, the girls worked on the farms, and at night they returned to their
barracks for military training just like the boys. They were trained to
be anti-aircraft gunners and participated in the signal corps. After the
labor corps, they were not discharged but were used in the front lines.
When I go back to Austria to visit my family and friends, most of these
women are emotional cripples because they just were not equipped to
handle the horrors of combat. Three months before I turned 18, I was
severely injured in an air raid attack. I nearly had a leg amputated, so
I was spared having to go into the labor corps and into military
service.

Hitler Restructured the Family Through Dayca

When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government
immediately established child care centers. You could take your children
ages 4 weeks to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, 7 days
a week, under the total care of the government. The state raised a whole
generation of children. There were no motherly women to take care of the
children, just people highly trained in child psychology. By this time,
no one talked about equal rights. We knew we had been had.

Health Care and Small Business Suffer Under Government Controls:

Before Hitler, we had very good medical care. Many American doctors
trained at the University of Vienna. After Hitler, health care was
socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government.
The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors
for everything. When the good doctor arrived at his office at 8 a.m., 40
people were already waiting and, at the same time, the hospitals were
full. If you needed elective surgery, you had to wait a year or two for
your turn. There was no money for research as it was poured into
socialized medicine. Research at the medical schools literally stopped,
so the best doctors left Austria and emigrated to other countries.

As for healthcare, our tax rates went up to 80% of our income. Newlyweds
immediately received a $1,000 loan from the government to establish a
household. We had big programs for families. All day care and education
were free. High schools were taken over by the government and college
tuition was subsidized. Everyone was entitled to free handouts, such as
food stamps, clothing, and housing.

We had another agency designed to monitor business. My brother-in-law
owned a restaurant that had square tables. Government officials told him
he had to replace them with round tables because people might bump
themselves on the corners. Then they said he had to have additional
bathroom facilities. It was just a small dairy business with a snack
bar. He couldn*t meet all the demands. Soon, he went out of business. If
the government owned the large businesses and not many small ones
existed, it could be in control.

We had consumer protection. We were told how to shop and what to buy.
Free enterprise was essentially abolished. We had a planning agency
specially designed for farmers. The agents would go to the farms, count
the livestock, then tell the farmers what to produce, and how to produce
it.

"Mercy Killing" Redefined:

In 1944, I was a student teacher in a small village in the Alps. The
villagers were surrounded by mountain passes which, in the winter, were
closed off with snow, causing people to be isolated. So people
intermarried and offspring were sometimes retarded. When I arrived, I
was told there were 15 mentally retarded adults, but they were all
useful and did good manual work. I knew one, named Vincent, very well.
He was a janitor of the school. One day, I looked out the window and saw
Vincent and others getting into a van. I asked my superior where they
were going. She said to an institution where the State Health Department
would teach them a trade, and to read and write. The families were
required to sign papers with a little clause that they could not visit
for 6 months. They were told visits would interfere with the program and
might cause homesickness.

As time passed, letters started to dribble back saying these people died
a natural, merciful death. The villagers were not fooled. We suspected
what was happening. Those people left in excellent physical health and
all died within 6 months. We called this euthanasia.

The Final Steps - Gun Laws:

Next came gun registration. People were getting injured by guns. Hitler
said that the real way to catch criminals (we still had a few) was by
matching serial numbers on guns. Most citizens were law-abiding and
dutifully marched to the police station to register their firearms. Not
long afterwards, the police said that it was best for everyone to turn
in their guns. The authorities already knew who had them, so it was
futile not to comply voluntarily.

No more freedom of speech. Anyone who said something against the
government was taken away. We knew many people who were arrested, not
only Jews, but also priests and ministers who spoke up.

Totalitarianism didn*t come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until
1943, to realize full dictatorship in Austria. Had it happened
overnight, my countrymen would have fought to the last breath. Instead,
we had creeping gradualism. Now, our only weapons were broom handles.
The whole idea sounds almost unbelievable that the state, little by
little, eroded our freedom.

After World War II, Russian troops occupied Austria. Women were raped,
pre-teen to elderly. The press never wrote about this, either. When the
Soviets left in 1955, they took everything that they could, dismantling
whole factories in the process. They sawed down whole orchards of fruit,
and what they couldn*t destroy, they burned. We called it The Burned
Earth. Most of the population barricaded themselves in their houses.
Women hid in their cellars for 6 weeks as the troops mobilized. Those
who couldn*t, paid the price. There is a monument in Vienna today,
dedicated to those women who were massacred by the Russians. This is an
eye witness account.

"It*s true...those of us who sailed past the Statue of Liberty came to a
country of unbelievable freedom and opportunity. America Truly is the
Greatest Country in the World. Don*t Let Freedom Slip Away!
*"After America, There is No Place to Go."

The author of this article lives in South Dakota.

On 26/09/2012 8:28 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 16:07:35 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 25/09/2012 2:02 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>> OL...he *is* rather fixated on my vagina, isn't he?
>>>>
>>>> It's another Austrian gene pool problem. It's best they don't breed
>>>> elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>
>>> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
>>> the Resistance during the war.
>>>
>>> Personal revisionist history.
>>
>> So true. I knew someone who was in the Danish resistance. He really
>> was. He was one of the people who helped my father to escape after his
>> plane was shot down over Denmark. In fact, they had a clandestine radio
>> transmitter in their house. When I said something to him once about the
>> number of people in the Danish Resistance... IIRC the number I heard was
>> 35,000. He said he would like to know where the hell they were when they
>> needed the help.
>
> You mentioned about your dad getting shot down before. It must make
> for a very impressive story. You should write it up.
>>
>> Then there is Holland, which sadly acknowledged that there were far more
>> Dutch who joined the Freikorps than the Resistance.
>
> It is only recently, within the past 5 years or so, that I first
> learned of this.
>>
>> Austria OTOH..... most accounts show that the Germans were welcomed with
>> open arms, that there was more support for the Nazis there than in much
>> of Germany. Yet, we are now being told that they were invaded ???? There
>> was no fighting. It's ironic that people make cracks about the French,
>> but they did put up a fight. It lasted longer than the fight the Poles
>> put up. The Austrians seemed to have been more interested in fighting
>> for the Nazis than against them.
>>
> I agree.
>
> Boron
>
It would be advisable for Michael K to realise that war histories are
written by the victors, not the losers. The losers might like to rewrite
their shameful part in the war but it will hold no creedence in the
wider world. I know some Japanese young people who were totally ignorant
of Japan's role in WW II. One young Japanese lass found that she learnt
more about Japan's war history AFTER she left Japan. What she was taught
in Japan had been thoroughly sanitised. She is now a resident of
Australia. I suggest Michael leave Austria to find out what really
happened in his country before and during WW II.

--

Krypsis

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 23:07:42 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:


>
>Was that the agreement about the crisis in the Balkans???? Oh no. That
>was when the British wanted them to come to a conference to discuss the
>problems but Austria was not interested. They were too buys trying to
>get Germany to threaten France so that they could move on the Balkans
>and not worry about the Russians. The Treaty of Versailles prohibited
>Germany from annexing Austria. I don't know what you expected Britain to
>do, or why you would expect them to do anything, since Austria was one
>of the main aggressors in the mess than turned into WWI.
>
>Is there any footage of Italians greeting the German soldiers as the
>Austrians were?


These Austrian revisionist views are not rare, of course, and the sins
of the fathers continued into the next generation and beyond insofar
as attitudes, admissions and actions about reparations. Modern
Germany, as a whole, has taken a much more public and ethical face-up
to the past than Austria.

I have more than a passing interest in it, of course. My grandfather,
although Hungarian, lived in Vienna and emigrated from there, though
long before the war. And there are professors of ethics and history in
the immediate family, so these discussions are frequent.

Really, it gets to be a sort of joke...like listening to some
Afrikaner defend apartheid or a Southerner talking about states rights
and the Civil War.

Extreme nationalism, racism, bigotry - they are always around us. No
country is free of these attitudes. It sure is fun to watch this one
example of extremism implode, though. Ka-boom. All over the kitchen
walls.

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:

> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
> the Resistance during the war.

Hey, don't forget Italy
As W. Churchill said: "A strange people the Italians, one day the're 45
millions of fascists and just the next day they're 45 millions of
antifascists and partisans."
--
Firma predefinita

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:31:04 +0200, "ViLco" > wrote:

>Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
>> the Resistance during the war.
>
>Hey, don't forget Italy
>As W. Churchill said: "A strange people the Italians, one day the're 45
>millions of fascists and just the next day they're 45 millions of
>antifascists and partisans."

Indeed!

Boron

On 25/09/2012 6:28 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:

>>> Personal revisionist history.
>>
>> So true. I knew someone who was in the Danish resistance. He really
>> was. He was one of the people who helped my father to escape after his
>> plane was shot down over Denmark. In fact, they had a clandestine radio
>> transmitter in their house. When I said something to him once about the
>> number of people in the Danish Resistance... IIRC the number I heard was
>> 35,000. He said he would like to know where the hell they were when they
>> needed the help.
>
> You mentioned about your dad getting shot down before. It must make
> for a very impressive story. You should write it up.

I did.
http://www.airmen.dk/pdfs/FirsttoSweden.pdf

On 26/09/2012 8:57 AM, Krypsis wrote:


> It would be advisable for Michael K to realise that war histories are
> written by the victors, not the losers. The losers might like to rewrite
> their shameful part in the war but it will hold no creedence in the
> wider world. I know some Japanese young people who were totally ignorant
> of Japan's role in WW II. One young Japanese lass found that she learnt
> more about Japan's war history AFTER she left Japan. What she was taught
> in Japan had been thoroughly sanitised. She is now a resident of
> Australia. I suggest Michael leave Austria to find out what really
> happened in his country before and during WW II.


Being a baby boomer, I grew up watching programs about the war. Granted,
we had the North American slant, but most of us had a pretty good
understanding of the causes and the events. We knew about the air war,
an attempt to bomb Germany in submission. It was only later, as social
values changed, that some people questioned the morality of that. We
regretted the atomic bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki only because it
ushered in the nuclear age, where a war with atomic weapons could
destroy our planet.

We didn't regret the use of those bombs on the Japanese. They deserved
anything they got, and anything to send the war that they started.
Public attitudes seemed to change about two decades ago and each August
we would start seeing news articles that upon those atomic bombings
unfavourably. suggesting that they were war crimes. Nuts to that!!
Those newspapers and magazines should have been running articles about
the Japanese aggression in Asia and the atrocities being committed by
the Japanese soldiers. There were more people systematically raped and
murdered in the city of Nanking alone than died in both atomic bombings.

I have to give the Germans credit for having acknowledged the crimes of
their countrymen and for sharing a national shame over the actions of
Nazi Germany. We don't see that in Japan. The government has stifled
the information. Japanese students are not told about their country's
aggression or about their atrocities. They have tried to paint
themselves as victims in that war.

For that matter, there are a number of countries in eastern and western
Europe who should be a little more remorseful. While Nazi Germans led
the way, they had a lot of support in some places. While Germany gets
the blame for the Holocaust and the murder of millions of Jews, Gypsies
and others, they had no trouble finding people in the occupied
countries to do their dirty work for them. In some cases, even the
Germans were appalled at the zeal with which they did that work.

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:50:03 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 25/09/2012 6:28 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>>>> Personal revisionist history.
>>>
>>> So true. I knew someone who was in the Danish resistance. He really
>>> was. He was one of the people who helped my father to escape after his
>>> plane was shot down over Denmark. In fact, they had a clandestine radio
>>> transmitter in their house. When I said something to him once about the
>>> number of people in the Danish Resistance... IIRC the number I heard was
>>> 35,000. He said he would like to know where the hell they were when they
>>> needed the help.
>>
>> You mentioned about your dad getting shot down before. It must make
>> for a very impressive story. You should write it up.
>
>I did.
>http://www.airmen.dk/pdfs/FirsttoSweden.pdf
>
>

Wow. You must be very proud of him and all those wonderful people who
helped him.

This would make a great movie, you know.

Boron

On 26/09/2012 11:42 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:31:04 +0200, "ViLco" > wrote:
>
>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>>> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
>>> the Resistance during the war.
>>
>> Hey, don't forget Italy
>> As W. Churchill said: "A strange people the Italians, one day the're 45
>> millions of fascists and just the next day they're 45 millions of
>> antifascists and partisans."
>
> Indeed!
>
> Boron
>
I agree wholeheartedly. I started reading it and couldn't stop until I
had finished it. It was a noteworthy feat for the fact that he was the
first to escape from occupied Denmark. Luck was really on his side the
whole time I would suggest.

--

Krypsis

On 26/09/2012 10:12 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:

>>> You mentioned about your dad getting shot down before. It must make
>>> for a very impressive story. You should write it up.
>>
>> I did.
>> http://www.airmen.dk/pdfs/FirsttoSweden.pdf
>>
>>
>
> Wow. You must be very proud of him and all those wonderful people who
> helped him.


Yes, we are proud of him. He was very lucky. He was lucky to have
landed in a freshly plowed field after bailing out so low, lucky to have
had an extra crew member on board that night, so there were enough
bodies to account for the whole crew, lucky not to have been in his
regular position in the cockpit, lucky to have had help from good Danes
along his route across the island, and lucky to have hooked up with the
Resistance.

We met a number of the people who helped him. Jyner and Sylvia Tjorn,
Chris Hansen and a Lars Troen all came to visit at my parents house at
various times in the 70s and 80s. We spent an evening with Jyner and
Sylvia when we took Dad's ashes over for burial. We had a wonderful time
and my brothers and I wanted to adopt them as grandparents. If I am not
mistaken, Chris was the one who built the radio and he was later
president of Bang and Olaffson <sp?>

He got to do a lot of sightseeing in Copenhagen, and the Danish
Resistance were known for photographing their exploits, which explains
why there are photos of him with some of the Resistance workers. I
don't remember if I mentioned in that article that the day they went to
the police station to get ID papers (most of the police force was in the
Resistance) Sylvia took him to lunch at the Hotel L'Angleterre, which
was a billet for German officers. You might have seen that restaurant
in the movie Counterfeit Traitor. There is a seen where the Germans spot
the hero (William Holden) and gives chase, but dozens of Danes on
bicycles block their way.


>
> This would make a great movie, you know.


Indeed. It would make a great movie, and nothing would need to be
changed. Unfortunately, the Stirling bomber would become a B-17 and the
Canadian and British crew members would become Americans.

On 9/26/2012 4:25 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 26/09/2012 10:12 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:

>> This would make a great movie, you know.
>
>
> Indeed. It would make a great movie, and nothing would need to be
> changed. Unfortunately, the Stirling bomber would become a B-17 and the
> Canadian and British crew members would become Americans.

Why would Canadian movie makers do that?

nancy

Nancy Young > wrote in
. com:

>> Indeed. It would make a great movie, and nothing would need
>> to be changed. Unfortunately, the Stirling bomber would
>> become a B-17 and the Canadian and British crew members would
>> become Americans.
>
> Why would Canadian movie makers do that?

They wouldn't. I think he's thinking of movies like U-571 which
was an amalgam of two successful British missions to capture
Enigma machines but with Americans instead of British.

Why would they do that? Marketing, obviously. Also lots of US
series shot in Canada (with some US actors headlining) are said
to take place in the US, because that's where the source of
financing is. When my daughter was living in Toronto, her area
was popular and as many as forty tv shows could be shot around
there including a fair number of US shows. More for Vancouver.

Most of the series listed on the links below are said to be in
the US but are not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...ries_produced_
in_Vancouver

http://tinyurl.com/5s438eg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...ries_produced_
in_Toronto

http://tinyurl.com/bor4j3d

Hell, sometimes we even see the Canadian flag or recognizeable
skyline.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On 9/26/2012 5:54 PM, Michel Boucher wrote:
> Nancy Young > wrote in
> . com:
>
>>> Indeed. It would make a great movie, and nothing would need
>>> to be changed. Unfortunately, the Stirling bomber would
>>> become a B-17 and the Canadian and British crew members would
>>> become Americans.
>>
>> Why would Canadian movie makers do that?
>
> They wouldn't. I think he's thinking of movies like U-571 which
> was an amalgam of two successful British missions to capture
> Enigma machines but with Americans instead of British.
>
> Why would they do that? Marketing, obviously. Also lots of US
> series shot in Canada (with some US actors headlining) are said
> to take place in the US, because that's where the source of
> financing is. When my daughter was living in Toronto, her area
> was popular and as many as forty tv shows could be shot around
> there including a fair number of US shows. More for Vancouver.
>
> Most of the series listed on the links below are said to be in
> the US but are not.

I know they shoot in Canada a lot for a few reasons. One of
which is that it's lovely, but there are financial reasons as
well.

But it doesn't preclude Canadians from producing a film centered
around Canadians, if it's good, people will pay. Even Americans.

nancy

On 26/09/2012 6:19 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
ere including a fair number of US shows. More for Vancouver.
>>
>> Most of the series listed on the links below are said to be in
>> the US but are not.
>
> I know they shoot in Canada a lot for a few reasons. One of
> which is that it's lovely, but there are financial reasons as
> well.
>
> But it doesn't preclude Canadians from producing a film centered
> around Canadians, if it's good, people will pay. Even Americans.


The reality of the North American movie business is that it has to have
American appeal, and military movies have to have the audience rooting
for their own. I have seem way too many movies where Americans inserted
into the plot. Once example is the The Bridge over the River Kwai, where
William Holden played an American commando tasked with blowing up the
bridge that was built by (mostly British) commandos. That part of the
story is complete fiction. The bridge was bombed with air attacks.

On 9/26/2012 6:41 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 26/09/2012 6:19 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
> ere including a fair number of US shows. More for Vancouver.
>>>
>>> Most of the series listed on the links below are said to be in
>>> the US but are not.
>>
>> I know they shoot in Canada a lot for a few reasons. One of
>> which is that it's lovely, but there are financial reasons as
>> well.
>>
>> But it doesn't preclude Canadians from producing a film centered
>> around Canadians, if it's good, people will pay. Even Americans.
>
>
> The reality of the North American movie business is that it has to have
> American appeal, and military movies have to have the audience rooting
> for their own.

I don't think that's true, I think there are a lot of people who
appreciate factual military shows. If the movie's very good, it
would do well.

> I have seem way too many movies where Americans inserted
> into the plot. Once example is the The Bridge over the River Kwai, where
> William Holden played an American commando tasked with blowing up the
> bridge that was built by (mostly British) commandos. That part of the
> story is complete fiction. The bridge was bombed with air attacks.

What was the movie made in the 50s or something? I think movies
have evolved.

nancy

On Sep 26, 2:54*pm, Michel Boucher > wrote:
> Nancy Young > wrote s.com:
>
> >> Indeed. It would make a great movie, and nothing would need
> >> to be changed. *Unfortunately, the Stirling bomber would
> >> become a B-17 and the Canadian and British crew members would
> >> become Americans.
>
> > Why would Canadian movie makers do that?
>
> They wouldn't. *I think he's thinking of movies like U-571 which
> was an amalgam of two successful British missions to capture
> Enigma machines but with Americans instead of British.

Christ on a bicycle! Don't they teach history up in Canuckistan?

Here, read the story of the capture of the U-505 and its two Enigma
machines, under Chicago native, Captain Dan Gallery, in May 1944

http://www.msichicago.org/whats-here...ifacts/enigma/

You can visit it today, as people all over the world have for over 55
years.


>
> Why would they do that? *Marketing, obviously.

While it's true that the Brits captured an early, three rotor Enigma
in 1941, the 42 capture provided two of the advanced four rotor
machines.

Interestingly, the British efforts to decode Enigma built upon work
done by the Polish Cypher Bureau, which had cracked the three rotor
Military enigma, but not the five rotor version.

Nancy Young > wrote in news:506373e5$0
:

> But it doesn't preclude Canadians from producing a film centered
> around Canadians, if it's good, people will pay. Even Americans.

Canadians DO make films centered in Canada but with US films
getting the majority of screens, it's hard to get seen except at
the TIFF. In Québec, it's easier because there actually is a
strong market for French-language films but they rarely get seen
outside the province.

I'm surprised, with what you say that you are unaware of recent
anglo films such as Gunless, Bon Cop Bad Cop (ok, that's a
bilingual film) and The Trotsky.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

Nancy Young > wrote in
. com:

>> I have seem way too many movies where Americans inserted
>> into the plot. Once example is the The Bridge over the River
>> Kwai, where William Holden played an American commando tasked
>> with blowing up the bridge that was built by (mostly British)
>> commandos. That part of the story is complete fiction. The
>> bridge was bombed with air attacks.
>
> What was the movie made in the 50s or something? I think
> movies have evolved.

But audiences have regressed.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

spamtrap1888 > wrote in news:400686e4-1d5d-
:

>> They wouldn't. ÿI think he's thinking of movies like U-571 which
>> was an amalgam of two successful British missions to capture
>> Enigma machines but with Americans instead of British.
>
> Christ on a bicycle! Don't they teach history up in Canuckistan?

Not US history, no. Do they teach Canadian history in USAia?

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On 26/09/2012 7:37 PM, Michel Boucher wrote:
> spamtrap1888 > wrote in news:400686e4-1d5d-
> :
>
>>> They wouldn't. ÿI think he's thinking of movies like U-571 which
>>> was an amalgam of two successful British missions to capture
>>> Enigma machines but with Americans instead of British.
>>
>> Christ on a bicycle! Don't they teach history up in Canuckistan?
>
> Not US history, no. Do they teach Canadian history in USAia?
>
0

Holy cow. I had not realized that American history lessons were so all
encompassing that they actually learn stuff like that in history class.
Hell, most people don't even know who was on what side in the wars.
Take a poll of people you know about whose side Italy was on in the two
world wars. They might be confused, so you may have to break it down by
date.

On 9/26/2012 12:19 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
>
> I know they shoot in Canada a lot for a few reasons. One of
> which is that it's lovely, but there are financial reasons as
> well.

Mostly it's financial - it's just cheaper to shoot up there. Some
productions aren't possible if shot in the US. The downside is that the
locations have a generic feel to it. It might look like the US but
something's different. Mostly, it's not gritty enough - everything looks
cleaner and clearer. OTOH, if you don't like grit, Canada might be the
place for you. :-)

>
> But it doesn't preclude Canadians from producing a film centered
> around Canadians, if it's good, people will pay. Even Americans.
>
> nancy

On Sep 26, 4:37*pm, Michel Boucher > wrote:
> spamtrap1888 > wrote in news:400686e4-1d5d-
> :
>
> >> They wouldn't. ÿI think he's thinking of movies like U-571 which
> >> was an amalgam of two successful British missions to capture
> >> Enigma machines but with Americans instead of British.
>
> > Christ on a bicycle! Don't they teach history up in Canuckistan?
>
> Not US history, no. *Do they teach Canadian history in USAia?
>

Sure. We had to read I Married the Klondike, the Autobiography of
Duddy Kravitz, and Les Nègres blancs d'Amérique

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:42:32 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 15:31:04 +0200, "ViLco" > wrote:
>
> >Boron Elgar wrote:
> >
> >> It is like everyone in France *after* WWII claiming to have been in
> >> the Resistance during the war.
> >
> >Hey, don't forget Italy
> >As W. Churchill said: "A strange people the Italians, one day the're 45
> >millions of fascists and just the next day they're 45 millions of
> >antifascists and partisans."

> Indeed!

It's survival mode... be agreeable to whoever it is that has invaded
this time.


>
> Boron


--
I take life with a grain of salt, a slice of lemon and a shot of tequila

Dave Smith > wrote in
:

> Holy cow. I had not realized that American history lessons
> were so all encompassing that they actually learn stuff like
> that in history class. Hell, most people don't even know who
> was on what side in the wars. Take a poll of people you know
> about whose side Italy was on in the two world wars. They
> might be confused, so you may have to break it down by date.

Allies in WWI, Axis in WWII (then Allies again, except for the
Republic of Salo).

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

dsi1 > wrote in
:

> It might look like the US but
> something's different. Mostly, it's not gritty enough -
> everything looks cleaner and clearer.

Downtown Winnipeg can pass easily for downtown Chicago as the
architecture is similar, and did in Chicago :-)

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

spamtrap1888 > wrote in news:6a2ef6c7-885c-
:

>> Not US history, no. ÿDo they teach Canadian history in USAia?
>
> Sure. We had to read I Married the Klondike, the Autobiography of
> Duddy Kravitz, and Les NŠgres blancs d'Am‚rique

Ok, first of all, literature is NOT history, and second of all it
is "The Apprenticeship of Duddy Kravitz" which leads me to think
that you either read it perfunctorily or not at all.

And did you read Nègres blancs d'Amérique in French? Or did you
just not want to type the title in English?

What about Félix-Antoine Savard and Félix Leclerc and Hubert Aquin?
Not history either, but damned good literature.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On 27/09/2012 9:48 AM, Michel Boucher wrote:
> Dave Smith > wrote in
> :
>
>> Holy cow. I had not realized that American history lessons
>> were so all encompassing that they actually learn stuff like
>> that in history class. Hell, most people don't even know who
>> was on what side in the wars. Take a poll of people you know
>> about whose side Italy was on in the two world wars. They
>> might be confused, so you may have to break it down by date.
>
> Allies in WWI, Axis in WWII (then Allies again, except for the
> Republic of Salo).
>


Part right. Italy had been a member of the Triple Alliance with Germany
and Austria-Hunagary, but it did not go to warm with them, arguing that
their alliance was a defensive one. Seeing the war as an opportunity to
gain some territory they wanted, it was easy enough to convince them to
renounce their treaty and to join the Allies.

Then there is Bulgaria, which also started off neutral then joined the
Allies, sued for peace in mid 1918, then re-entered the war.

Dave Smith > wrote in
:

> Part right. Italy had been a member of the Triple Alliance
> with Germany and Austria-Hunagary, but it did not go to warm
> with them, arguing that their alliance was a defensive one.
> Seeing the war as an opportunity to gain some territory they
> wanted, it was easy enough to convince them to renounce their
> treaty and to join the Allies.
>
> Then there is Bulgaria, which also started off neutral then
> joined the Allies, sued for peace in mid 1918, then re-entered
> the war.

And the Soviet Union which started off allied with the West in 1914
as a tsarist nation but ended up suing for peace and joining
Germany. However, when push came to shove, Italy was an ally.

--

Traditions are group efforts to keep the unexpected
from happening.

-- Barbara Tober

On 27/09/2012 1:44 PM, Michel Boucher wrote:
> Dave Smith > wrote in
> :
>
>> Part right. Italy had been a member of the Triple Alliance
>> with Germany and Austria-Hunagary, but it did not go to warm
>> with them, arguing that their alliance was a defensive one.
>> Seeing the war as an opportunity to gain some territory they
>> wanted, it was easy enough to convince them to renounce their
>> treaty and to join the Allies.
>>
>> Then there is Bulgaria, which also started off neutral then
>> joined the Allies, sued for peace in mid 1918, then re-entered
>> the war.
>
> And the Soviet Union which started off allied with the West in 1914
> as a tsarist nation but ended up suing for peace and joining
> Germany. However, when push came to shove, Italy was an ally.


It was not the Soviet Union at the beginning of the war. It was Russia,
and it was already subject to a lot of social unrest. The war was the
last straw for the people, who were fed up with the tsarist system. The
war devastated their economy and pushed even more people to fight
against the regime. The Bolsheviks were the most powerful faction when
the dust started to clear, and they wanted to end the war. The treaty
that ended that is another one for people to look at when they want to
argue that the Treaty of Versailles was too harsh on the Germans.
Russia, under the new regime was out of the war.