On 6/18/2013 11:07 PM, Sqwertz wrote:

> But I argue that it's not a safety issue. Or at least an
> insignificant one.

You can argue that... but can you show any cites that would back up your
position?


>They could apply any one of a thousand other
> "safety issues" just as insignificant (such as losing weight, which
> would affect the outcome of many more surgeries than the one in
> question).

Agreed... but just because there are other factors doesn't negate the
effect of smoking on the body's ability to heal.... and you have yet to
provide any proof that smoking is an insignificant factor.

George L

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
b.com...
> On 6/18/2013 9:55 PM, Pico Rico wrote:
>
>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>> t...
>>> In article >, ost
>>> says...
>>>
>>>> A doctor can't FORCE you to eat healthy - never eat fast food or
>>>> processed food - any more than he can force you to quite smoking.
>>>> He can educate you about it and bitch and moan, but it's ultimately
>>>> YOUR decision.
>>>
>>> You're entirely missing the point, which is that no patient can force
>>> a surgeon to operate on them against medical safety.
>>>
>>
>> nowhere was it authoritatively stated that not quitting smoking would
>> lead
>> the surgery to be unsafe.
>>
>>
> The medical authorities only have anecdotal evidence at this point and no
> clear reason why. They have studies, but are unsure why tobacco use leads
> to delay in bone healing.
>

a "delay in bone healing" is a far cry from making the surgery unsafe.

"Janet" > wrote in message
t...
> In article >, ost
> says...
>>
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 02:19:57 +0100, Janet wrote:
>>
>> > In article >, ost
>> > says...
>> >
>> >> A doctor can't FORCE you to eat healthy - never eat fast food or
>> >> processed food - any more than he can force you to quite smoking.
>> >> He can educate you about it and bitch and moan, but it's ultimately
>> >> YOUR decision.
>> >
>> > You're entirely missing the point, which is that no patient can force
>> > a surgeon to operate on them against medical safety.
>>
>> But I argue that it's not a safety issue. Or at least an
>> insignificant one.
>
> Smoking is a highly significant risk during GA, post surgery etc.
> Worldwide medical research to prove it. See my other post for links or
> google "smoking general anaeshesia".
>
>
> Janet UK

"Patients are advised to quit smoking at least four to six weeks prior to
surgery. Abstinence for twelve hours is sufficient to get rid of carbon
monoxide. Ciliary function improves and nicotine levels return to normal
within 12-24 hours. Abstinence for 2 weeks helps return sputum volume to
normal levels. Laryngeal and bronchial activity is better in 5-10 days. "



perhaps we are talking about two different things. Quitting all together is
not the doctors call. Quitting a few days before some surgeries may be what
this is all about.

On 6/18/2013 7:42 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:57:33 -0500, Ema Nymton wrote:
>
>> Glad you quit smoking, congratulations. I know 3 sisters who went to a
>> plastic surgeon to discuss facelifts. He told the two smokers they would
>> have to quit smoking and they made an appointment 3 months later. One of
>> them quit, but not the other one, and he refused to do surgery on her.
>
> Now this is funny. A plastic surgeon with misplaced morals? If he's
> really worried about their welfare he shouldn't even be doing
> facelifts in the first place.
>
> -sw


This plastic surgeon specializes in reconstruction of the hand and arm,
but specializing in that is not enough to pay the bills. BTW, a doctor
refused to treat my sister for asthma, if she did not quit smoking.
Houston, where she used to live, is a big city, so she found another
doctor.

Becca

"Ema Nymton" > wrote in message
...
> On 6/18/2013 7:42 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 17:57:33 -0500, Ema Nymton wrote:
>>
>>> Glad you quit smoking, congratulations. I know 3 sisters who went to a
>>> plastic surgeon to discuss facelifts. He told the two smokers they would
>>> have to quit smoking and they made an appointment 3 months later. One of
>>> them quit, but not the other one, and he refused to do surgery on her.
>>
>> Now this is funny. A plastic surgeon with misplaced morals? If he's
>> really worried about their welfare he shouldn't even be doing
>> facelifts in the first place.
>>
>> -sw
>
>
> This plastic surgeon specializes in reconstruction of the hand and arm,
> but specializing in that is not enough to pay the bills. BTW, a doctor
> refused to treat my sister for asthma, if she did not quit smoking.
> Houston, where she used to live, is a big city, so she found another
> doctor.
>
Stupid woman!!

On 6/19/2013 4:06 AM, wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:22:22 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>
>> On 6/18/2013 6:56 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> Sin taxes... should be applied to donuts too ;-)
>>
>> You Canadians are real enemies of free will, aren't you?
>
>
> No call to be envious.
>

Indeed not.

God save your queen?

On 2013-06-19, Sqwertz > wrote:

> smoking at all - I just couldn't bring myself to smoke them!

Whattya make of these?

http://www.blucigs.com/

I'm sure glad that part of my life is past.

nb

"notbob" > wrote in message
...
> On 2013-06-19, Sqwertz > wrote:
>
>> smoking at all - I just couldn't bring myself to smoke them!
>
> Whattya make of these?
>
> http://www.blucigs.com/
>
> I'm sure glad that part of my life is past.
>
> nb


You and me both. It took me 50 years to do, but better late than never...
going on 4 years now. Saved a ton of money and can actually carry on a
conversation without the cigarette cough, but I still would never vote for
more cigarette taxes just because it doesn't affect me anymore.

Cheri

On 2013-06-19, Cheri > wrote:

> conversation without the cigarette cough, but I still would never vote for
> more cigarette taxes just because it doesn't affect me anymore.

Another govt scam, jes like DUIs. Don't actually discourage the vice,
jes make all the $$$$ possible for as long as possible, by whatever
crooked means. Tobacco kinda backfired due to all the self-righteous
busibodies butting (ha) into yer beeswax and inadvertently creating a
social stigma, so the govt hadda tax the holy bejeesus out of it to
keep that $$$$ flowing. Notice how alcohol is not discouraged. In
fact, it's encouraged. More brands and looser laws than ever, yet
don't get caught cuz yer govt will bend you over and ram it home with
a vengence.

nb

On 6/19/2013 1:15 PM, wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:15:14 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>
>> On 6/19/2013 4:06 AM, wrote:
>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:22:22 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/18/2013 6:56 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>> Sin taxes... should be applied to donuts too ;-)
>>>>
>>>> You Canadians are real enemies of free will, aren't you?
>>>
>>>
>>> No call to be envious.
>>>
>>
>> Indeed not.
>>
>> God save your queen?
>
> Well as head of state she is a lot more likeable than many others I
> can think of, she's never interfered with anything I want to do. I
> would have died rather than look up to GWB ! Arrrghgh, that's a fate
> far worse than death!!
>
Thankfully we have term limits, royalty is limited only by extreme
scandal or death.

On 6/19/2013 1:52 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:06:03 -0500, George Leppla wrote:
>
>> Agreed... but just because there are other factors doesn't negate the
>> effect of smoking on the body's ability to heal.... and you have yet to
>> provide any proof that smoking is an insignificant factor.
>
> I've healed just fine from several bone surgeries while smoking. They
> even said I'd be arthritic by the time I was 45 and so far that has
> not happened.

That is an anecdote... not a cite to any study that supports you claim.

FWIW.. I healed OK after three surgeries on broken bones while I was
smoking... but I have no way of knowing if I might have healed
better/quicker if I had quit. You say you healed "just fine" but have
no way of knowing what the process would have been like if you had not
been smoking.

So to recap... there are numerous scientific studies showing that
healing after surgery is better for non-smokers than smokers. You claim
that this is insignificant but have not yep provided one cite to support
your position.

George L

On 6/19/2013 3:49 PM, wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:52:16 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>
>> On 6/19/2013 1:15 PM, wrote:
>>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 11:15:14 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/19/2013 4:06 AM, wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Jun 2013 20:22:22 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/18/2013 6:56 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>>>> Sin taxes... should be applied to donuts too ;-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You Canadians are real enemies of free will, aren't you?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No call to be envious.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Indeed not.
>>>>
>>>> God save your queen?
>>>
>>> Well as head of state she is a lot more likeable than many others I
>>> can think of, she's never interfered with anything I want to do. I
>>> would have died rather than look up to GWB ! Arrrghgh, that's a fate
>>> far worse than death!!
>>>
>> Thankfully we have term limits, royalty is limited only by extreme
>> scandal or death.
>
>
> I`ll take 60 years of Queenie over 1 of Bush !

You'll get that and the rest of the royals until you learn to claim your
own independence from institutionalized parasitism.

Oh wait...the dole...never mind...

"George Leppla" > wrote in message
...
> On 6/19/2013 1:52 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>> On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 07:06:03 -0500, George Leppla wrote:
>>
>>> Agreed... but just because there are other factors doesn't negate the
>>> effect of smoking on the body's ability to heal.... and you have yet to
>>> provide any proof that smoking is an insignificant factor.
>>
>> I've healed just fine from several bone surgeries while smoking. They
>> even said I'd be arthritic by the time I was 45 and so far that has
>> not happened.
>
> That is an anecdote... not a cite to any study that supports you claim.
>
> FWIW.. I healed OK after three surgeries on broken bones while I was
> smoking... but I have no way of knowing if I might have healed
> better/quicker if I had quit. You say you healed "just fine" but have no
> way of knowing what the process would have been like if you had not been
> smoking.
>
> So to recap... there are numerous scientific studies showing that healing
> after surgery is better for non-smokers than smokers. You claim that this
> is insignificant but have not yep provided one cite to support your
> position.
>


of course leaving your bones broken without surgery would have resulted in a
far worse result than having the surgery even though you didn't quit
smoking.

On 19/06/2013 3:37 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2013-06-19, Cheri > wrote:
>
>> conversation without the cigarette cough, but I still would never vote for
>> more cigarette taxes just because it doesn't affect me anymore.
>
> Another govt scam, jes like DUIs. Don't actually discourage the vice,
> jes make all the $$$$ possible for as long as possible, by whatever
> crooked means.

I don't think it is fair to suggest that anti DUI initiatives because
people continue to drink and drive.

I am by no means defending drinking and driving but I do have some
problems with criminal charges being laid over arbitrary blood alcohol
levels, especially when the penalties for those who have blown over the
limit are sometimes worse than those for people who were drunk and
involved in accidents with fatalities. For instance, a serial drinking
driver who was never involved in an accident was sentenced to five
years. Around the same time, a young woman who was drunk, lost control
and her passenger was killed..... 6 months of house arrest.

My concern is that the crashes with injuries and fatalies are the worst
cases. The penalties for those should always be more serious than the
situations where they have increased the chances of a fatal crash. It
is sort of like a year in jail for stealing a pack of gum but only a
month for robbing a bank.

On 18/06/2013 3:41 PM, George Leppla wrote:
> On 6/18/2013 9:39 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>> Your house, your rules. But as you say, grown-ups make their own
>> decisions. I'm glad Cheryl was motivated to quit. But I won't let
>> anyone, doctor or otherwise, tell me I*have* to. I know smoking is bad
>> for me.
>
> I should have been clearer. You do not "have" to quit smoking. But
> knee surgery is elective surgery... and the doctor does not "have" to
> accept you as a patient.
>
> Now if it were an emergency, all bets are off... but for elective
> surgery, a doctor has the right to expect that his patient will do all
> they can to limit surgical complications... or he can pass.
>
>


I can understand doctors in the US doing that. Malpractice suits are a
big business and I would not put it past some people to claim that they
were not sufficiently warned about possible side effects related to
smoking, like slower recovery.

I had a friend who was a doctor here and was lured to Texas by the
promise of a partnership in a lucrative practice and no state income
tax. It was the biggest mistake he ever made and he realized too late
that it had been a major mistake to move. He had delivered a lot of
babies here but he had to give that up because the cost of malpractice
insurance was too high.