I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK. Many
Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those when
there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots. Work that
one out

We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of Scottish
extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and neighbours, even
though we have English accents. We get the other side of it when away from
them ...

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>Work that one out
>
> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side of
> it when away from them ...

In this country it seems to go beyond North and South. I think people are
the most tolerant here in the PNW. Perhaps this is because the people who
settled this area were rebels!

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>>I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>>Work that one out
>>
>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>> of it when away from them ...
>
> In this country it seems to go beyond North and South. I think people are
> the most tolerant here in the PNW. Perhaps this is because the people who
> settled this area were rebels!

PNW?

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

Julie Bove wrote:
>
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
> >I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
> >Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
> >when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
> >Work that one out
> >
> > We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
> > Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
> > neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side of
> > it when away from them ...
>
> In this country it seems to go beyond North and South. I think people are
> the most tolerant here in the PNW. Perhaps this is because the people who
> settled this area were rebels!

It's not really north vs. south anymore, it's much more left/right
coasts vs. middle.

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>>Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>>>those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>>>Scots. Work that one out
>>>
>>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>>> of it when away from them ...
>>
>> In this country it seems to go beyond North and South. I think people
>> are the most tolerant here in the PNW. Perhaps this is because the
>> people who settled this area were rebels!
>
> PNW?

Pacific North West, Washington State, Oregon, etc.

Cheri

"Cheri" > wrote in message
...
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>>I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>>>Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>>>>those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>>>>Scots. Work that one out
>>>>
>>>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>>>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>>>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>>>> of it when away from them ...
>>>
>>> In this country it seems to go beyond North and South. I think people
>>> are the most tolerant here in the PNW. Perhaps this is because the
>>> people who settled this area were rebels!
>>
>> PNW?
>
> Pacific North West, Washington State, Oregon, etc.

Thanks very much
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK. Many
>
> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those when
>
> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots. Work that
>
> one out

Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or isn't, we would better understand.

On 6/22/2013 4:57 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in
>>> UK. Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you
>>> hear those when there are no English around ... otoh most English
>>> love the Scots. Work that one out
>>>
>>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other
>>> side of it when away from them ...
>>
>> In this country it seems to go beyond North and South. I think people
>> are the most tolerant here in the PNW. Perhaps this is because the
>> people who settled this area were rebels!
>
> PNW?

Pacific Northwest

On 6/22/2013 7:12 AM, Kalmia wrote:
> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK. Many
>>
>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those when
>>
>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots. Work that
>>
>> one out
>
> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or isn't, we would better understand.
>
>
William Wallace.

On 6/22/2013 10:38 AM, casa bona wrote:
> On 6/22/2013 7:12 AM, Kalmia wrote:
>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in
>>> UK. Many
>>>
>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>> when
>>>
>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>>> Work that
>>>
>>> one out
>>
>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or
>> isn't, we would better understand.
>>
>>
> William Wallace.

If you are thinking of the Mel Gibson version of history...it bears
little resemblance to what actually happened.

On 6/22/2013 9:12 AM, S Viemeister wrote:
> On 6/22/2013 10:38 AM, casa bona wrote:
>> On 6/22/2013 7:12 AM, Kalmia wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in
>>>> UK. Many
>>>>
>>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>>> when
>>>>
>>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>>>> Work that
>>>>
>>>> one out
>>>
>>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or
>>> isn't, we would better understand.
>>>
>>>
>> William Wallace.
>
> If you are thinking of the Mel Gibson version of history...it bears
> little resemblance to what actually happened.
>

I wasn't, but I was going to mention Cromwell next...

I generally delve a bit deeper then mere Hollywood fluff.

"Kalmia" > wrote in message
...
> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>> Many
>>
>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>> when
>>
>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots. Work
>> that
>>
>> one out
>
> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or isn't,
> we would better understand.

Atm they are not sovereign but some politicians and - from the results of
surveys - about 30% of the population want to be. Atm they are part of the
UK. They have a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh that controls some
government functions but the Scottish Nationalist Party, who are currently
in power, and some others want complete independence from the UK. This
hatred of some Scots for the English is not new. It goes back hundreds of
years. At the moment, Alex Salmond, leader of the SNP, is promoting a big
festival next year in remembrance of the battle of Bannockburn in 1314,
which the Scots delight in as one of their few military victories against
the English. Nothing to do with the fact that the referendum on Scottish
Independence is being held in September next year of course Unfortunately
half of them think Braveheart (the film) (with Mel Gibson - who has less to
do with Scotland than about anybody you could think of - in the lead role)
was a documentary!

I don't mind if Scotland gets independence (I live in Scotland) but the
Scots will find they won't have the money to spare as they do now. We (the
Scots) get (for example) free university tuition fees etc which the rest of
the UK can't afford. But they get a lot of money from the UK gov and the
assertion that income from north sea oil and gas, (which they will claim)
which are fast depleting resources, will fund all their socialist policies
is nonsense. The Scottish Nationalist Party (Salmond) make up policy on the
back of an envelope to try to sway the people, but it is often knocked down
and it is becoming embarrassing. One minute they are making bold assertions
about becoming a full member of the EU on the back of having been part of
the UK's membership, which is then flat out denied by the EU leaders and
bureaucrats, and the next saying that they would keep the Pound as their
currency, even though the Bank of England say that might not be allowed and
the EU is insisting that any new members adopt the Euro! They just say
whatever they think sounds good even though they haven't properly researched
the reality and implications and more and more Scottish people are
recognising them for what they are. It is a shame really, because if they
researched it and costed it properly they might have a chance.

They even decided to give 16 year olds a vote in the referendum, they said
on the basis that the kids would be of voting age when(if) Scotland became
independent, but really because they thought that the youngsters were a)
naturally attracted to the concept of independence and b) would be easier to
influence. Unfortunately for the SNP, surveys among the youngsters show the
percentage that are pro SNP (Scottish Independence Party) is not much higher
than in adults and even less of them have any respect or liking for Salmond.
The SNP is even losing voters in its former strongholds like the NE of
Scotland due to the hash they have made of things since being in the
majority after the last national elections.

The fact is Scottish independence isn't going to happen this time or in the
near future and the SNP might well lose their majority in the next
elections.

Well, you did ask
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 6/22/2013 9:46 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Kalmia" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in
>>> UK. Many
>>>
>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>> when
>>>
>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>>> Work that
>>>
>>> one out
>>
>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or
>> isn't, we would better understand.
>
> Atm they are not sovereign but some politicians and - from the results
> of surveys - about 30% of the population want to be. Atm they are part
> of the UK. They have a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh that controls
> some government functions but the Scottish Nationalist Party, who are
> currently in power, and some others want complete independence from the
> UK. This hatred of some Scots for the English is not new. It goes back
> hundreds of years. At the moment, Alex Salmond, leader of the SNP, is
> promoting a big festival next year in remembrance of the battle of
> Bannockburn in 1314, which the Scots delight in as one of their few
> military victories against the English. Nothing to do with the fact that
> the referendum on Scottish Independence is being held in September next
> year of course Unfortunately half of them think Braveheart (the film)
> (with Mel Gibson - who has less to do with Scotland than about anybody
> you could think of - in the lead role) was a documentary!
>
> I don't mind if Scotland gets independence (I live in Scotland) but the
> Scots will find they won't have the money to spare as they do now. We
> (the Scots) get (for example) free university tuition fees etc which the
> rest of the UK can't afford. But they get a lot of money from the UK
> gov and the assertion that income from north sea oil and gas, (which
> they will claim) which are fast depleting resources, will fund all their
> socialist policies is nonsense. The Scottish Nationalist Party (Salmond)
> make up policy on the back of an envelope to try to sway the people, but
> it is often knocked down and it is becoming embarrassing. One minute
> they are making bold assertions about becoming a full member of the EU
> on the back of having been part of the UK's membership, which is then
> flat out denied by the EU leaders and bureaucrats, and the next saying
> that they would keep the Pound as their currency, even though the Bank
> of England say that might not be allowed and the EU is insisting that
> any new members adopt the Euro! They just say whatever they think sounds
> good even though they haven't properly researched the reality and
> implications and more and more Scottish people are recognising them for
> what they are. It is a shame really, because if they researched it and
> costed it properly they might have a chance.
>
> They even decided to give 16 year olds a vote in the referendum, they
> said on the basis that the kids would be of voting age when(if) Scotland
> became independent, but really because they thought that the youngsters
> were a) naturally attracted to the concept of independence and b) would
> be easier to influence. Unfortunately for the SNP, surveys among the
> youngsters show the percentage that are pro SNP (Scottish Independence
> Party) is not much higher than in adults and even less of them have any
> respect or liking for Salmond. The SNP is even losing voters in its
> former strongholds like the NE of Scotland due to the hash they have
> made of things since being in the majority after the last national
> elections.
>
> The fact is Scottish independence isn't going to happen this time or in
> the near future and the SNP might well lose their majority in the next
> elections.
>
> Well, you did ask
> --

And you just provided an information dense examination, thank you.

AS ever, not lot of easy answers when it comes to breaking of bits of
the kingdom, is there?

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Kalmia" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>> Many
>>>
>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>> when
>>>
>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots. Work
>>> that
>>>
>>> one out
>>
>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or isn't,
>> we would better understand.
>
> Atm they are not sovereign but some politicians and - from the results of
> surveys - about 30% of the population want to be. Atm they are part of
> the UK. They have a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh that controls some
> government functions but the Scottish Nationalist Party, who are currently
> in power, and some others want complete independence from the UK. This
> hatred of some Scots for the English is not new. It goes back hundreds of
> years. At the moment, Alex Salmond, leader of the SNP, is promoting a big
> festival next year in remembrance of the battle of Bannockburn in 1314,
> which the Scots delight in as one of their few military victories against
> the English. Nothing to do with the fact that the referendum on Scottish
> Independence is being held in September next year of course
> Unfortunately half of them think Braveheart (the film) (with Mel Gibson -
> who has less to do with Scotland than about anybody you could think of -
> in the lead role) was a documentary!
>
> I don't mind if Scotland gets independence (I live in Scotland) but the
> Scots will find they won't have the money to spare as they do now. We
> (the Scots) get (for example) free university tuition fees etc which the
> rest of the UK can't afford. But they get a lot of money from the UK gov
> and the assertion that income from north sea oil and gas, (which they will
> claim) which are fast depleting resources, will fund all their socialist
> policies is nonsense. The Scottish Nationalist Party (Salmond) make up
> policy on the back of an envelope to try to sway the people, but it is
> often knocked down and it is becoming embarrassing. One minute they are
> making bold assertions about becoming a full member of the EU on the back
> of having been part of the UK's membership, which is then flat out denied
> by the EU leaders and bureaucrats, and the next saying that they would
> keep the Pound as their currency, even though the Bank of England say that
> might not be allowed and the EU is insisting that any new members adopt
> the Euro! They just say whatever they think sounds good even though they
> haven't properly researched the reality and implications and more and more
> Scottish people are recognising them for what they are. It is a shame
> really, because if they researched it and costed it properly they might
> have a chance.
>
> They even decided to give 16 year olds a vote in the referendum, they said
> on the basis that the kids would be of voting age when(if) Scotland became
> independent, but really because they thought that the youngsters were a)
> naturally attracted to the concept of independence and b) would be easier
> to influence. Unfortunately for the SNP, surveys among the youngsters show
> the percentage that are pro SNP (Scottish Independence Party) is not much
> higher than in adults and even less of them have any respect or liking for
> Salmond. The SNP is even losing voters in its former strongholds like the
> NE of Scotland due to the hash they have made of things since being in the
> majority after the last national elections.
>
> The fact is Scottish independence isn't going to happen this time or in
> the near future and the SNP might well lose their majority in the next
> elections.
>
> Well, you did ask

I ought to have added, Sheila Viemeister, (the only Scot posting here) might
disagree I look forward to her views)

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 6/22/2013 9:56 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "Kalmia" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in
>>>> UK. Many
>>>>
>>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>>>> those when
>>>>
>>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>>>> Work that
>>>>
>>>> one out
>>>
>>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or
>>> isn't, we would better understand.
>>
>> Atm they are not sovereign but some politicians and - from the results
>> of surveys - about 30% of the population want to be. Atm they are
>> part of the UK. They have a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh that
>> controls some government functions but the Scottish Nationalist Party,
>> who are currently in power, and some others want complete independence
>> from the UK. This hatred of some Scots for the English is not new.
>> It goes back hundreds of years. At the moment, Alex Salmond, leader of
>> the SNP, is promoting a big festival next year in remembrance of the
>> battle of Bannockburn in 1314, which the Scots delight in as one of
>> their few military victories against the English. Nothing to do with
>> the fact that the referendum on Scottish Independence is being held in
>> September next year of course Unfortunately half of them think
>> Braveheart (the film) (with Mel Gibson - who has less to do with
>> Scotland than about anybody you could think of - in the lead role) was
>> a documentary!
>>
>> I don't mind if Scotland gets independence (I live in Scotland) but
>> the Scots will find they won't have the money to spare as they do
>> now. We (the Scots) get (for example) free university tuition fees
>> etc which the rest of the UK can't afford. But they get a lot of
>> money from the UK gov and the assertion that income from north sea oil
>> and gas, (which they will claim) which are fast depleting resources,
>> will fund all their socialist policies is nonsense. The Scottish
>> Nationalist Party (Salmond) make up policy on the back of an envelope
>> to try to sway the people, but it is often knocked down and it is
>> becoming embarrassing. One minute they are making bold assertions
>> about becoming a full member of the EU on the back of having been part
>> of the UK's membership, which is then flat out denied by the EU
>> leaders and bureaucrats, and the next saying that they would keep the
>> Pound as their currency, even though the Bank of England say that
>> might not be allowed and the EU is insisting that any new members
>> adopt the Euro! They just say whatever they think sounds good even
>> though they haven't properly researched the reality and implications
>> and more and more Scottish people are recognising them for what they
>> are. It is a shame really, because if they researched it and costed
>> it properly they might have a chance.
>>
>> They even decided to give 16 year olds a vote in the referendum, they
>> said on the basis that the kids would be of voting age when(if)
>> Scotland became independent, but really because they thought that the
>> youngsters were a) naturally attracted to the concept of independence
>> and b) would be easier to influence. Unfortunately for the SNP,
>> surveys among the youngsters show the percentage that are pro SNP
>> (Scottish Independence Party) is not much higher than in adults and
>> even less of them have any respect or liking for Salmond. The SNP is
>> even losing voters in its former strongholds like the NE of Scotland
>> due to the hash they have made of things since being in the majority
>> after the last national elections.
>>
>> The fact is Scottish independence isn't going to happen this time or
>> in the near future and the SNP might well lose their majority in the
>> next elections.
>>
>> Well, you did ask
>
> I ought to have added, Sheila Viemeister, (the only Scot posting here)
> might disagree I look forward to her views)
>

It's worth noting that the horror Cromwell visited upon the Scots after
the Dunbar invasion included enslaving many and shipping them off to the
colonies.

But that is not Cromwell's sole legacy:

http://www.thereformation.info/cromwell.htm

For eight years the Scots had been demanding ecclesiastical harmony of
the English but in retaliation the Cromwellian regime enforced political
cooperation and ecclesiastical tolerance. With and from this flowed a
firm and impartial government that was relatively honest, even handed
and efficient. For good measure in an act of considerable magnanimity (
though they did not see it as such), the Scots were offered a union with
England and representation in the English Parliament .

~

On 3 September 1658 (his lucky day after the battles of Dunbar and
Worcester) the Lord Protector, Oliver Cromwell died, leaving the reins
in the hands of his son Richard who was not of his father`s calibre. In
a short space of time Richard Cromwell departed from the scene and the
army was left in power The demand for parliamentary power and abolition
of rule by the sword gathered momentum in England but it was in Scotland
that action took place. Here Lt. General Monk had discussions with
Archbishop Sharp and summoned representatives to Edinburgh to launch his
plan to restore a Scottish king and Scotland`s independence. They were
charged with maintaining order in his absence while he and his army
marched to London, arriving in February 1660. The English Parliament was
restored and the issue of the Union was raised but discussion was not
serious. In their fourth session in April the Parliament voted in favour
of restoring the old constitution and Scotland had her independence and
monarch once more. Charles was consulted by emissaries and the second
Declaration at Breda (almost certainly based on suggestions made by
Monk) confirmed his return. The terms this time were not dictated by
Presbyterian zealots, and were much more acceptable to Charles. With it
came a vengeful Restoration and in Scotland twenty eight years of
oppression, including the "Killing Time" of 1685, and the attempt of
James II to restore the supremacy of the Catholic Church.

On 22/06/2013 11:12 AM, S Viemeister wrote:
> On 6/22/2013 10:38 AM, casa bona wrote:
>> On 6/22/2013 7:12 AM, Kalmia wrote:
>>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in
>>>> UK. Many
>>>>
>>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>>> when
>>>>
>>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>>>> Work that
>>>>
>>>> one out
>>>
>>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or
>>> isn't, we would better understand.
>>>
>>>
>> William Wallace.
>
> If you are thinking of the Mel Gibson version of history...it bears
> little resemblance to what actually happened.
>


So true. He has been in a number of movies where the British had
committed atrocities against Mel's team, based on incidents that had
been committed by others. For instance, locking the people in a church
and setting fire to it. Never done by the British in the real world, but
there will be lots of people who will accept it as fact.

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>>Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>>>those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>>>Scots. Work that one out
>>>
>>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>>> of it when away from them ...
>>
>> In this country it seems to go beyond North and South. I think people
>> are the most tolerant here in the PNW. Perhaps this is because the
>> people who settled this area were rebels!
>
> PNW?

Pacific Northwest.

On 6/22/2013 12:45 AM, Ophelia wrote:
> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
> Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
> those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
> Scots. Work that one out
>
> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
> of it when away from them ...
>

Ethnic identity is a funny thing. I always thought my wife's family was
all Irish but she later tells me that she had some Scottish blood
flowing through her. It doesn't change anything about a person but I
look at her at a slightly different angle now.

In the end, it doesn't matter. Her people came to America early on and
planted roots that ran deep and they helped build this country. We have
a bill of sale for a bitch and child that one of her grandfathers from
the mid-1800s purchased when humans could be bought and sold. Her family
came to raise hell in the new country and they've been raising hell
every since.

https://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.co...a-desperadoes/

On 6/22/2013 11:45 AM, Cindy Fuller wrote:
> The most egregious affront to
> Southern-ness was the tutti-frutti iced tea that most restaurants in
> Seattle are hell-bent on serving. These folks don't know from Luzianne,
> the premier brand of iced tea in the South that is not sold in WA.
>
> Cindy, who may have to put in another order for Luzianne teabags soon


Don't forget the Community Coffee. More popular in Louisiana but still
does a pretty good business here in SE Texas.

George L

"dsi1" > wrote in message
...
> On 6/22/2013 12:45 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>> Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>> those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>> Scots. Work that one out
>>
>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>> of it when away from them ...
>>
>
> Ethnic identity is a funny thing. I always thought my wife's family was
> all Irish but she later tells me that she had some Scottish blood flowing
> through her. It doesn't change anything about a person but I look at her
> at a slightly different angle now.

Hah! She is one of us then!!!!!!! <weg>

> In the end, it doesn't matter. Her people came to America early on and
> planted roots that ran deep and they helped build this country. We have a
> bill of sale for a bitch and child that one of her grandfathers from the
> mid-1800s purchased when humans could be bought and sold. Her family came
> to raise hell in the new country and they've been raising hell every
> since.

Too right!


> https://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.co...a-desperadoes/


Interesting stuff!

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 09:45:38 -0700, Cindy Fuller
> wrote:

> The most egregious affront to
> Southern-ness was the tutti-frutti iced tea that most restaurants in
> Seattle are hell-bent on serving.

What's tutti-frutti iced tea? Google didn't seem to know.

My favorite iced tea these days is an Arnold Palmer (a mixture of
black tea and lemonade made with real lemons)... when I can get it.
It's getting harder and harder to find a restaurant that makes real
lemonade these days. I'm not even asking them to juice the lemons for
me, because they can buy the juice - I just don't want Snapple or
Minutemaid or whatever it is they stock.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 6/22/2013 11:10 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 22/06/2013 11:12 AM, S Viemeister wrote:
>> On 6/22/2013 10:38 AM, casa bona wrote:
>>> On 6/22/2013 7:12 AM, Kalmia wrote:
>>>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in
>>>>> UK. Many
>>>>>
>>>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>>>> when
>>>>>
>>>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots.
>>>>> Work that
>>>>>
>>>>> one out
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or
>>>> isn't, we would better understand.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> William Wallace.
>>
>> If you are thinking of the Mel Gibson version of history...it bears
>> little resemblance to what actually happened.
>>
>
>
> So true. He has been in a number of movies where the British had
> committed atrocities against Mel's team, based on incidents that had
> been committed by others. For instance, locking the people in a church
> and setting fire to it. Never done by the British in the real world, but
> there will be lots of people who will accept it as fact.

If you're referring to "Patriot" you just shifted historical idioms.

sf wrote:
>
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 09:45:38 -0700, Cindy Fuller
> > wrote:
>
> > The most egregious affront to
> > Southern-ness was the tutti-frutti iced tea that most restaurants in
> > Seattle are hell-bent on serving.
>
> What's tutti-frutti iced tea? Google didn't seem to know.

I suspect it's a reference to the peach, raspberry,
kiwi-kumquat-whatever flavored iced teas that have become far too common
in many places leaving no normal unsweetened, unflavored iced tea on the
menu.

Nearly sure my clan is Scots/Irish. We love everybody except Frog Eating Frenchies. Actually we love them too..lol. We just make fun of them a lot for some reason. 50 Million Frenchmen can't be wrong huh?

"bigwheel" > wrote in message
...
>
> 'Ophelia[_9_ Wrote:
>> ;1842585']I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the
>> same in UK. Many
>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>> when
>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots. Work
>> that
>> one out
>>
>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>> Scottish
>> extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and neighbours, even
>>
>> though we have English accents. We get the other side of it when away
>> from
>> them ...
>>
>> --
>> --
>> http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/
>
> Nearly sure my clan is Scots/Irish. We love everybody except Frog Eating
> Frenchies. Actually we love them too..lol. We just make fun of them a
> lot for some reason. 50 Million Frenchmen can't be wrong huh?

<g>

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"dsi1" > wrote in message
...
> On 6/22/2013 12:45 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>> Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>> those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>> Scots. Work that one out
>>
>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>> of it when away from them ...
>>
>
> Ethnic identity is a funny thing. I always thought my wife's family was
> all Irish but she later tells me that she had some Scottish blood flowing
> through her. It doesn't change anything about a person but I look at her
> at a slightly different angle now.

Do you really??? How interesting) You need to be careful, she might don
a kilt and start doing a Highland Fling around her kitchen and start cooking
haggis for your dinner)))) If I were you I would keep a sgian dubh
handy, just in case <g>

> In the end, it doesn't matter.

No it doesn't. What matters (to me anyway) is not if they have Martian
blood but the kindness a person has in their heart.

Her people came to America early on and
> planted roots that ran deep and they helped build this country. We have a
> bill of sale for a bitch and child that one of her grandfathers from the
> mid-1800s purchased when humans could be bought and sold. Her family came
> to raise hell in the new country and they've been raising hell every
> since.

So, does she raise hell? btw how sad and dehumanising to call a woman a
'bitch' It is good those days are past when the selling of human beings
was acceptable.

> https://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.co...a-desperadoes/

Fascinating stuff!!! I've saved it to read properly later, thanks

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "dsi1" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 6/22/2013 12:45 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>> Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>>> those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>>> Scots. Work that one out
>>>
>>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>>> of it when away from them ...
>>>
>>
>> Ethnic identity is a funny thing. I always thought my wife's family was
>> all Irish but she later tells me that she had some Scottish blood flowing
>> through her. It doesn't change anything about a person but I look at her
>> at a slightly different angle now.
>
> Do you really??? How interesting) You need to be careful, she might
> don a kilt and start doing a Highland Fling around her kitchen and start
> cooking haggis for your dinner)))) If I were you I would keep a sgian
> dubh handy, just in case <g>
>
>> In the end, it doesn't matter.
>
> No it doesn't. What matters (to me anyway) is not if they have Martian
> blood but the kindness a person has in their heart.
>
> Her people came to America early on and
>> planted roots that ran deep and they helped build this country. We have a
>> bill of sale for a bitch and child that one of her grandfathers from the
>> mid-1800s purchased when humans could be bought and sold. Her family came
>> to raise hell in the new country and they've been raising hell every
>> since.
>
> So, does she raise hell? btw how sad and dehumanising to call a woman
> a 'bitch' It is good those days are past when the selling of human
> beings was acceptable.
>
>> https://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.co...a-desperadoes/
>
> Fascinating stuff!!! I've saved it to read properly later, thanks

My dad always said that we Heinz 57. We are a mix of all sorts of things
but we could only track my mom's family back so far. We assume that they
came from Ireland because of the name McElhiney. And she said it was said
of some of her older relatives that they were black Irish. Many of the
older relatives had black hair and dark eyes. But there is also Cherokee
Indian on that side of the family.

For some odd reason, my dad's mom hated the Irish. Especially the Irish
women. She would put them down. My dad said that when she was young, many
young Irish women came to this country and worked as maids for the wealthy.
My grandma looked upon them as gold diggers, just waiting to swoop in and
take any eligible men that might have been out there. But the very odd
thing is, after her husband died, she married a man who I think had an Irish
name. McCandless. So go figure. She was rather odd in many respects.
Said she would never eat foreign food. Italian and Mexican being foreign to
her. And yet she made German potato salad! But perhaps she didn't consider
that to be foreign because there was some German in our background as well
as French and English. I was told by some people that my maiden name was
Scottish but my dad said it was English. And my grandma's maiden name was
French but it records show that it was changed slightly when they came to
this country. Which was fairly common to do.

Ophelia wrote:
>
> Please define 'rednecks'?

Wikipedia does a decent job of defining them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

On 6/23/2013 1:19 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "dsi1" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 6/22/2013 12:45 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>> Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>>> those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>>> Scots. Work that one out
>>>
>>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>>> of it when away from them ...
>>>
>>
>> Ethnic identity is a funny thing. I always thought my wife's family
>> was all Irish but she later tells me that she had some Scottish blood
>> flowing through her. It doesn't change anything about a person but I
>> look at her at a slightly different angle now.
>
> Do you really??? How interesting) You need to be careful, she might
> don a kilt and start doing a Highland Fling around her kitchen and start
> cooking haggis for your dinner)))) If I were you I would keep a
> sgian dubh handy, just in case <g>
>
>> In the end, it doesn't matter.
>
> No it doesn't. What matters (to me anyway) is not if they have Martian
> blood but the kindness a person has in their heart.
>
> Her people came to America early on and
>> planted roots that ran deep and they helped build this country. We
>> have a bill of sale for a bitch and child that one of her grandfathers
>> from the mid-1800s purchased when humans could be bought and sold. Her
>> family came to raise hell in the new country and they've been raising
>> hell every since.
>
> So, does she raise hell? btw how sad and dehumanising to call a
> woman a 'bitch' It is good those days are past when the selling of
> human beings was acceptable.

The bill of sale is pretty much like one you'd get these days if you
bought a lawnmower or some firewood i.e., an accurate description of the
machine or lot and the price paid. It's a startling document.

My wife is not one for raising hell but her brothers tended to be wild
rovers when they were younger. They were hard to pin down and would move
around from state to state. Even the brother that was married and a
quadriplegic would get in his car and disappear for a while. Those guys
just had to keep on moving on. BD may have been referring to her brother
as the "wildest cat from Montana" in the tune "Three Angels."

>
>> https://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.co...a-desperadoes/
>>
>
> Fascinating stuff!!! I've saved it to read properly later, thanks
>

The funny part is that some folks from Montana considered Floppin' Bill
a guy that got rid of the rustlers and therefore, a hero, but I never
saw a movie where John Wayne tied a mill stone around a guys neck and
then throw the unlucky sod into a river.

"Julie Bove" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>
>> "dsi1" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 6/22/2013 12:45 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>>> Many Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear
>>>> those when there are no English around ... otoh most English love the
>>>> Scots. Work that one out
>>>>
>>>> We get to see that in action. Himself is Scots born, while I am of
>>>> Scottish extraction so we are treated as Scots with friends and
>>>> neighbours, even though we have English accents. We get the other side
>>>> of it when away from them ...
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ethnic identity is a funny thing. I always thought my wife's family was
>>> all Irish but she later tells me that she had some Scottish blood
>>> flowing through her. It doesn't change anything about a person but I
>>> look at her at a slightly different angle now.
>>
>> Do you really??? How interesting) You need to be careful, she might
>> don a kilt and start doing a Highland Fling around her kitchen and start
>> cooking haggis for your dinner)))) If I were you I would keep a
>> sgian dubh handy, just in case <g>
>>
>>> In the end, it doesn't matter.
>>
>> No it doesn't. What matters (to me anyway) is not if they have Martian
>> blood but the kindness a person has in their heart.
>>
>> Her people came to America early on and
>>> planted roots that ran deep and they helped build this country. We have
>>> a bill of sale for a bitch and child that one of her grandfathers from
>>> the mid-1800s purchased when humans could be bought and sold. Her family
>>> came to raise hell in the new country and they've been raising hell
>>> every since.
>>
>> So, does she raise hell? btw how sad and dehumanising to call a woman
>> a 'bitch' It is good those days are past when the selling of human
>> beings was acceptable.
>>
>>> https://yesteryearsnews.wordpress.co...a-desperadoes/
>>
>> Fascinating stuff!!! I've saved it to read properly later, thanks
>
> My dad always said that we Heinz 57. We are a mix of all sorts of things
> but we could only track my mom's family back so far. We assume that they
> came from Ireland because of the name McElhiney. And she said it was said
> of some of her older relatives that they were black Irish. Many of the
> older relatives had black hair and dark eyes. But there is also Cherokee
> Indian on that side of the family.
>
> For some odd reason, my dad's mom hated the Irish. Especially the Irish
> women. She would put them down. My dad said that when she was young,
> many young Irish women came to this country and worked as maids for the
> wealthy. My grandma looked upon them as gold diggers, just waiting to
> swoop in and take any eligible men that might have been out there. But
> the very odd thing is, after her husband died, she married a man who I
> think had an Irish name. McCandless. So go figure. She was rather odd
> in many respects. Said she would never eat foreign food. Italian and
> Mexican being foreign to her. And yet she made German potato salad! But
> perhaps she didn't consider that to be foreign because there was some
> German in our background as well as French and English. I was told by
> some people that my maiden name was Scottish but my dad said it was
> English. And my grandma's maiden name was French but it records show that
> it was changed slightly when they came to this country. Which was fairly
> common to do.

<g> We have a saying in Yorkshire ... There's nowt so queer as folk!

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Gary" > wrote in message ...
> Ophelia wrote:
>>
>> Please define 'rednecks'?
>
> Wikipedia does a decent job of defining them.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redneck

That is awful. Thanks, Gary.

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"dsi1" > wrote in message
...

> The bill of sale is pretty much like one you'd get these days if you
> bought a lawnmower or some firewood i.e., an accurate description of the
> machine or lot and the price paid. It's a startling document.

Yes, totally dehumanising Nothing more than a piece of meat. They were
lucky there were not in that position, but I suppose that is how things were
at the time

> My wife is not one for raising hell but her brothers tended to be wild
> rovers when they were younger. They were hard to pin down and would move
> around from state to state. Even the brother that was married and a
> quadriplegic would get in his car and disappear for a while. Those guys
> just had to keep on moving on. BD may have been referring to her brother
> as the "wildest cat from Montana" in the tune "Three Angels."

Lordy, Lordy!!! In their blood I suppose!

> The funny part is that some folks from Montana considered Floppin' Bill a
> guy that got rid of the rustlers and therefore, a hero, but I never saw a
> movie where John Wayne tied a mill stone around a guys neck and then throw
> the unlucky sod into a river.

Ackkkkkkkk

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Saturday, June 22, 2013 1:10:49 PM UTC-4, Dave Smith wrote:

> So true. He has been in a number of movies where the British had
>
> committed atrocities against Mel's team, based on incidents that had
>
> been committed by others. For instance, locking the people in a church
>
> and setting fire to it. Never done by the British in the real world, but
>
> there will be lots of people who will accept it as fact.

Not even in the US south?

On Saturday, June 22, 2013 11:46:57 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or isn't,
>
> > we would better understand.
>
>
>
> Atm they are not sovereign but some politicians and - from the results of
>
> surveys - about 30% of the population want to be. Atm they are part of the
>
> UK. They have a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh that controls some
>
> government functions but the Scottish Nationalist Party, who are currently
>
> in power, and some others want complete independence from the UK. This
>
> hatred of some Scots for the English is not new. It goes back hundreds of
>
> years. At the moment, Alex Salmond, leader of the SNP, is promoting a big
>
> festival next year in remembrance of the battle of Bannockburn in 1314,
>
> which the Scots delight in as one of their few military victories against
>
> the English. Nothing to do with the fact that the referendum on Scottish
>
> Independence is being held in September next year of course Unfortunately
>
> half of them think Braveheart (the film) (with Mel Gibson - who has less to
>
> do with Scotland than about anybody you could think of - in the lead role)
>
> was a documentary!
>
>
>
> I don't mind if Scotland gets independence (I live in Scotland) but the
>
> Scots will find they won't have the money to spare as they do now. We (the
>
> Scots) get (for example) free university tuition fees etc which the rest of
>
> the UK can't afford. But they get a lot of money from the UK gov and the
>
> assertion that income from north sea oil and gas, (which they will claim)
>
> which are fast depleting resources, will fund all their socialist policies
>
> is nonsense. The Scottish Nationalist Party (Salmond) make up policy on the
>
> back of an envelope to try to sway the people, but it is often knocked down
>
> and it is becoming embarrassing. One minute they are making bold assertions
>
> about becoming a full member of the EU on the back of having been part of
>
> the UK's membership, which is then flat out denied by the EU leaders and
>
> bureaucrats, and the next saying that they would keep the Pound as their
>
> currency, even though the Bank of England say that might not be allowed and
>
> the EU is insisting that any new members adopt the Euro! They just say
>
> whatever they think sounds good even though they haven't properly researched
>
> the reality and implications and more and more Scottish people are
>
> recognising them for what they are. It is a shame really, because if they
>
> researched it and costed it properly they might have a chance.
>
>
>
> They even decided to give 16 year olds a vote in the referendum, they said
>
> on the basis that the kids would be of voting age when(if) Scotland became
>
> independent, but really because they thought that the youngsters were a)
>
> naturally attracted to the concept of independence and b) would be easier to
>
> influence. Unfortunately for the SNP, surveys among the youngsters show the
>
> percentage that are pro SNP (Scottish Independence Party) is not much higher
>
> than in adults and even less of them have any respect or liking for Salmond.
>
> The SNP is even losing voters in its former strongholds like the NE of
>
> Scotland due to the hash they have made of things since being in the
>
> majority after the last national elections.
>
>
>
> The fact is Scottish independence isn't going to happen this time or in the
>
> near future and the SNP might well lose their majority in the next
>
> elections.
>
>
>
> Well, you did ask

What a wonderful one sided rant. From your information it appears that the Scots should be grateful to the English for looking after them.

Scotland is a beautiful country with a rich history. Its independence, although fragmented, until unification went back much further than the English..

Regarding fiscal independence it is far from clear whether Scotland will thrive without being anchored to the UK. Many studies have been done with varied viewpoints. What is clear is that Scotland has been exploited for many years by Westminster. Before oil was discovered in the North Sea their was almost no investment in Scotland and the transportation system to the outer reaches was decimated. There is also a good argument that the oil was stolen from Scotland for the support of the rest of the UK. If the model used in Alaska (where the state has control and income from the oil) had been used in Scotland we would be arguing that Scotland couldn't leave because of all the wealth they would be taking with them.

One should always examine both views, not just be guided by ones own blind prejudice. You say you live in Scotland. Please read some of the history and get a more balanced view of your country.

http://www.richardfisher.com

On 6/23/2013 11:13 AM, wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jun 2013 16:46:57 +0100, "Ophelia"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Kalmia" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 6:45:11 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>>>> I got to thinking about this later. It is pretty much the same in UK.
>>>> Many
>>>>
>>>> Scots hate the English. Most will not show it, but if you hear those
>>>> when
>>>>
>>>> there are no English around ... otoh most English love the Scots. Work
>>>> that
>>>>
>>>> one out
>>>
>>> Perhaps if you explain just how sovereign a nation Scotland is, or isn't,
>>> we would better understand.
>>
>> Atm they are not sovereign but some politicians and - from the results of
>> surveys - about 30% of the population want to be. Atm they are part of the
>> UK. They have a Scottish parliament in Edinburgh that controls some
>> government functions but the Scottish Nationalist Party, who are currently
>> in power, and some others want complete independence from the UK. This
>> hatred of some Scots for the English is not new. It goes back hundreds of
>> years. At the moment, Alex Salmond, leader of the SNP, is promoting a big
>> festival next year in remembrance of the battle of Bannockburn in 1314,
>> which the Scots delight in as one of their few military victories against
>> the English. Nothing to do with the fact that the referendum on Scottish
>> Independence is being held in September next year of course Unfortunately
>> half of them think Braveheart (the film) (with Mel Gibson - who has less to
>> do with Scotland than about anybody you could think of - in the lead role)
>> was a documentary!
>>
>> I don't mind if Scotland gets independence (I live in Scotland) but the
>> Scots will find they won't have the money to spare as they do now. We (the
>> Scots) get (for example) free university tuition fees etc which the rest of
>> the UK can't afford. But they get a lot of money from the UK gov and the
>> assertion that income from north sea oil and gas, (which they will claim)
>> which are fast depleting resources, will fund all their socialist policies
>> is nonsense. The Scottish Nationalist Party (Salmond) make up policy on the
>> back of an envelope to try to sway the people, but it is often knocked down
>> and it is becoming embarrassing. One minute they are making bold assertions
>> about becoming a full member of the EU on the back of having been part of
>> the UK's membership, which is then flat out denied by the EU leaders and
>> bureaucrats, and the next saying that they would keep the Pound as their
>> currency, even though the Bank of England say that might not be allowed and
>> the EU is insisting that any new members adopt the Euro! They just say
>> whatever they think sounds good even though they haven't properly researched
>> the reality and implications and more and more Scottish people are
>> recognising them for what they are. It is a shame really, because if they
>> researched it and costed it properly they might have a chance.
>>
>> They even decided to give 16 year olds a vote in the referendum, they said
>> on the basis that the kids would be of voting age when(if) Scotland became
>> independent, but really because they thought that the youngsters were a)
>> naturally attracted to the concept of independence and b) would be easier to
>> influence. Unfortunately for the SNP, surveys among the youngsters show the
>> percentage that are pro SNP (Scottish Independence Party) is not much higher
>> than in adults and even less of them have any respect or liking for Salmond.
>> The SNP is even losing voters in its former strongholds like the NE of
>> Scotland due to the hash they have made of things since being in the
>> majority after the last national elections.
>>
>> The fact is Scottish independence isn't going to happen this time or in the
>> near future and the SNP might well lose their majority in the next
>> elections.
>>
>> Well, you did ask
>> --
>
> I look at it as an expat in new Scotland and with regard to the vote
> when it comes, the heart says yes, commonsense says no.
>
> Been through this with the Quebec referendum several years ago (or as
> some of us called it, the Neverendum) and it strikes me as a very
> difficult thing to do. How everything would divide, such as share of
> National Debt, resources, currency ad infinitum.
>

Rene Levesque was a charismatic knothead, imo.

In article >,
says...
> I look at it as an expat in new Scotland and with regard to the vote
> when it comes, the heart says yes, commonsense says no.
>
> Been through this with the Quebec referendum several years ago (or as
> some of us called it, the Neverendum) and it strikes me as a very
> difficult thing to do. How everything would divide, such as share of
> National Debt, resources, currency ad infinitum.

Britain has past, successful experience of such division,
separation and allocation; last century in Ireland, and all around the
world as ex-colonies regained their independence to the degree they
wanted.

Janet in Scotland.

>

In article >,
says...
> What a wonderful one sided rant.


From your information it appears that the Scots should be grateful to
the English for looking after them.
>
> Scotland is a beautiful country with a rich history. Its independence, although fragmented,
until unification went back much further than the English.
>
> Regarding fiscal independence it is far from clear whether Scotland will thrive without being anchored to the UK. Many studies have been done with varied viewpoints. What is clear is that Scotland has been exploited for many years by Westminster. Before oil was discovered in the North Sea their was almost no investment in Scotland and the transportation system to the outer reaches was decimated. There is also a good argument that the oil was stolen from Scotland for
the support of the rest of the UK. If the model used in Alaska (where the state has control and income from the oil)
had been used in Scotland we would be arguing that Scotland couldn't
leave because of all the wealth they would be taking with them.

That is, of course, the reason Cameron is so terrified of a Yes vote.
It's extraordinary that anyone living in Scotland, can still be unaware
of the Crone report cover up.

"HEALEY ADMITS OIL TAX COVER-UP

The former Labour Chancellor, Denis Healey, has admitted his Government
played down the value of Scotland?s oil reserves in the 1970s because of
the threat of nationalism.

Now Lord Healey of Riddlesden, the Labour peer said tax receipts from
oil is the biggest factor behind Westminster opposition to both next
year?s and the 1979 independence referendum.

The 95-year-old also claimed the Westminster parties are ?worried stiff?
about Scots voting Yes in next year?s poll because of the valuable
income from the North Sea. Meanwhile he joined former Conservative
chancellor Nigel Lawson in backing a bid for the UK to quit the European
Union.

Lord Healey said the UK would ?suffer enormously? without the billions
of pounds of tax from North Sea oil. He said:

?I think they [Westminster politicians] are concerned about Scotland
taking the oil, I think they are worried stiff about it. I think we
would suffer enormously if the income from Scottish oil stopped but if
the Scots want it [independence], they should have it and we would just
need to adjust. But I would think Scotland could survive perfectly well,
economically, if it was independent. Yes, I would think so? with the
oil.?

In 1974 a leading Government economist, Professor Gavin McCrone, wrote a
report which stated that Scotland would have had ?embarrassingly? large
tax surpluses as a result of the North Sea oil boom. Lord Healey?s
Labour government decided to keep that document under wraps until it was
eventually released in 2005."

and that's apart from Scotland's rapid development as a world leader
in renewable energy generation.

Janet in Scotland.

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 10:03:01 -0700 (PDT), Helpful person
> wrote:

> On Saturday, June 22, 2013 11:46:57 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
> >
> >
> > The fact is Scottish independence isn't going to happen this time or in the
> >
> > near future and the SNP might well lose their majority in the next
> >
> > elections.
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, you did ask
>
> What a wonderful one sided rant. From your information it appears that the Scots should be grateful to the English for looking after them.
>
> Scotland is a beautiful country with a rich history. Its independence, although fragmented, until unification went back much further than the English.
>
> Regarding fiscal independence it is far from clear whether Scotland will thrive without being anchored to the UK. Many studies have been done with varied viewpoints. What is clear is that Scotland has been exploited for many years by Westminster. Before oil was discovered in the North Sea their was almost no investment in Scotland and the transportation system to the outer reaches was decimated. There is also a good argument that the oil was stolen from Scotland for the support of the rest of the UK. If the model used in Alaska (where the state has control and income from the oil) had been used in Scotland we would be arguing that Scotland couldn't leave because of all the wealth they would be taking with them.
>
> One should always examine both views, not just be guided by ones own blind prejudice. You say you live in Scotland. Please read some of the history and get a more balanced view of your country.
>

What baffles me is why any Scot would *want* independence, considering
Scotland's political power in the UK.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

"Helpful person" > wrote in message
...

>
> What a wonderful one sided rant. From your information it appears that
> the Scots should be grateful to the English for looking after them.

> Scotland is a beautiful country with a rich history. Its independence,
> although fragmented, until unification went back much further than the
> English.
>
> Regarding fiscal independence it is far from clear whether Scotland will
> thrive without being anchored to the UK. Many studies have been done with
> varied viewpoints. What is clear is that Scotland has been exploited for
> many years by Westminster. Before oil was discovered in the North Sea
> their was almost no investment in Scotland and the transportation system
> to the outer reaches was decimated. There is also a good argument that
> the oil was stolen from Scotland for the support of the rest of the UK.
> If the model used in Alaska (where the state has control and income from
> the oil) had been used in Scotland we would be arguing that Scotland
> couldn't leave because of all the wealth they would be taking with them.
>
> One should always examine both views, not just be guided by ones own blind
> prejudice. You say you live in Scotland. Please read some of the history
> and get a more balanced view of your country.
>
> http://www.richardfisher.com

Call it a rant if you wish, I was asked my opinion and I gave it. We have
lived in Scotland for many years and my work during that time was as a
Curator of Social History in the Scottish Museum Service, so I don't need
you to tell me about the history of this country. Of course it is a
beautiful country with a fascinating history, much (though far from all) of
which Scots can be proud, however, none of that has any relevance to the
current discussion!

Scotland has not been 'exploited by Westminster, in fact it has been
supported and subsidised by the rest of the UK. The exploration and eventual
tapping of the oil fields was done under the centralised government and
funding while Scotland has been part of the UK. It has never been
'independent' during that time and all income, taxation, etc. went to the
treasury and payments for all resources throughout the UK, including
Scotland, for defence, administration, and all other centralised services
were paid from the treasury. The devolved Scottish parliament was not
established until 1998 and did not first meet until 12 May 1999 whereas the
modern period of oil and gas exploration and extraction began in the late
1960s. As a unified nation under central government with no independent
Scottish administration at the time, or now (fully) for that matter, natural
resources extracted in that time can in no way be considered as belonging
to, or therefore stolen from, any one part of the UK. The UK does not have
the same political structure as the USA with independent 'states' and a
'federal' government, it is, still a UNITED kingdom, until recently with no
separated governance in the major parts.

I am fully aware of the alternative views but they are mainly based on
romanticism, ill-informed prejudice and the largely disproven wishful
thinking of self-serving power-hungry politicians, all of which are just as
misplaced as your own ignorant utterances.


May I ask how long you have lived here? I take instruction only from
resident Scots who actually know what they are talking about e.g. Shelia
Viemeister in this group!


http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Sun, 23 Jun 2013 12:19:19 +0100, "Ophelia"
> wrote:
>
>
> "dsi1" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Her people came to America early on and
> > planted roots that ran deep and they helped build this country. We have a
> > bill of sale for a bitch and child that one of her grandfathers from the
> > mid-1800s purchased when humans could be bought and sold. Her family came
> > to raise hell in the new country and they've been raising hell every
> > since.
>
> So, does she raise hell? btw how sad and dehumanising to call a woman a
> 'bitch' It is good those days are past when the selling of human beings
> was acceptable.

In those days, slaves where not treated as human beings. They were
chattel and that one was obviously used as a breeder.
>


--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.