On 7/6/2013 2:43 AM, Janet wrote:
> In article om>,
> says...
>>
>> On 7/5/2013 10:50 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>>
>>> As a restaurant owner I would certainly segregate him somehow from the
>>> rest of the public. Actually, I wouldn't even let him in my
>>> well-regarded restaurant in the first place. That is, unless there's
>>> some sort of law preventing asshole discrimination.
>>>
>>> -sw
>>>
>> Do you suppose he travels with cameras all the time? It wouldn't
>> surprise me if he did. I guess it also depends on what he was doing
>> dining in that restaurant in the first place.
>
> Pity you didn't read the link. He was on a fishing holiday with
> friends; they went out for dinner.
>
> If he was there with a
>> large group I'd think he was there with a production group of some kind.
>
> Fishermen on holiday do not tend to move round in large mobs.
>
> I can't believe the naivete.
>
> GR's TV show, is about failing businesses that have ASKED to be on a
> TV show in which GR will tell them what they're doing wrong and what to
> do to put it right. IOW, its all arranged in advance at the owners
> request. He does NOT turn up unexpectedly (with an entire production
> crew). It's a highly predictable formula, there's no secret about it or
> how he behaves on the show, every restaurant owner knew that when they
> put their own name forward to take part.
>
> You can't seriously think he takes a TV production crew with him in
> his private social life?
>
> Janet UK
>

Watch his BBC program, "The F Word" - he films extensively on his home
estate.

On 7/6/2013 7:10 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "graham" > wrote in message
> news
>>
>> "Julie Bove" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> In article om>,
>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 7/5/2013 10:50 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> > As a restaurant owner I would certainly segregate him somehow
>>>>> from > the
>>>>> > rest of the public. Actually, I wouldn't even let him in my
>>>>> > well-regarded restaurant in the first place. That is, unless
>>>>> there's
>>>>> > some sort of law preventing asshole discrimination.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > -sw
>>>>> >
>>>>> Do you suppose he travels with cameras all the time? It wouldn't
>>>>> surprise me if he did. I guess it also depends on what he was doing
>>>>> dining in that restaurant in the first place.
>>>>
>>>> Pity you didn't read the link. He was on a fishing holiday with
>>>> friends; they went out for dinner.
>>>
>>> I did read the link!
>>
>> Really?
>>
>>>>
>>>> If he was there with a
>>>>> large group I'd think he was there with a production group of some
>>>>> kind.
>>>>
>>>> Fishermen on holiday do not tend to move round in large mobs.
>>>
>>> I wouldn't know.
>>
>> Then don't comment!
>
> Whoa there, Graham! This is not a moderated group!
>
Just killfile retro-moderated, eh?

On 7/6/2013 8:41 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 08:58:39 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 06/07/2013 8:54 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>>> I'm saying that if a customer does not care to sit for hours (not
>>> feeling well? Exhausted after a long day of sightseeing? Have to get
>>> up at 4am to catch a plane? Whatever) the response isn't to sniff
>>> superiorly that this is Paris and go whisper to other customers how
>>> much better they are than the Americans! but to expedite their dinner
>>> in some way. It's called service.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> It's not just Americans. I am usually not in a hurry when I go out for
>> drinks or dinner. If I don't have time for a nice leisurely meal I don't
>> go to nice places. My younger brother is different. When he was with us
>> in a bar in Paris he was upset about slow service. He expects that a
>> waiter should be keeping an eye on the table and take new orders when he
>> is half way through his beer so he will have a fresh cold one when he
>> finished the first one. We are very different.
>
> That's the difference between a smart server and one with a job for
> life. The smart ones size up the customer and being culturally aware,
> steps up the service as necessary. I don't know about your brother,
> but we tip anyway when we like the waiter/waitress. Ignore us and no
> extra tip, because more than they deserve is already included on the
> bill. Pay attention to us and figure out how fast or slow we want to
> be served (ask directly, if you must) and we tip generously... over
> and above what it says on the bill, in cash, so there's no confusion
> that the money is to go to straight into the server's pocket.
>
> So -
>
> Dear European Waiters and Waitresses,
>
> Be snooty all you want. Make snide remarks and laugh at the Americans
> behind their backs, but the purpose of going to work is to make enough
> money to provide yourself with food, shelter and clothing. That's why
> it's called a j-o-b, not an inheritance. Put on your game face and
> adjust your attitude. The level of service depends on the individual
> and being a multicultural society, you should be able to accommodate
> for cultural differences. If you can't do that, then find a different
> job because the one you have isn't for you.
>
Bravo.

And would it kill them or their employer to have a few extra covers per
night anyway?

Is there some cultural objection to increased revenues per table?

On 7/6/2013 8:43 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 08:22:57 -0400, Nancy Young
> > wrote:
>
>> On 7/6/2013 7:45 AM, graham wrote:
>>
>>> Precisely!
>>> A few weeks ago I was dining in a good retasurant in France and the waiter
>>> told me that in the other room there was a large party of Americans. They
>>> had asked if the resto could speed up a bit as they were used to fast
>>> service in the US!! It was tactfully pointed out that they were now in
>>> France!
>>
>> And? They are incapable of heeding the paying customer's request?
>> Give the travelers their food more quickly than you're used to and
>> let them go about their business. Running into the next room to make
>> snide remarks about other customers, sounds like a great place.
>>
>> I don't mind dawdling for a long time if I'm hanging out with friends,
>> but I do not wish to be stuck staying because of slow service. I'd
>> like to decide if I stay for hours.
>>
>> nancy
>
> You have a good point but...
> If possible they should do what they can. But they should not upset
> the pace of the kitchen and mess up 30 other customers for the sake of
> one table.
>
> OTOH, if you were visiting Saudi Arabia, would you insist on getting
> cocktails at the hotel pool while sunbathing in your bikini? You're
> an American, after all and they should accommodate you.
>
> If you don't like French dining, perhaps you should visit some other
> country.
>

Or perhaps they should grasp that swifter service leads to increased
revenue per table and less time spent with the apparently intolerable
Americans.

On 7/6/2013 8:56 AM, Pico Rico wrote:
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 08:58:39 -0400, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 06/07/2013 8:54 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>>>
>>>> I'm saying that if a customer does not care to sit for hours (not
>>>> feeling well? Exhausted after a long day of sightseeing? Have to get
>>>> up at 4am to catch a plane? Whatever) the response isn't to sniff
>>>> superiorly that this is Paris and go whisper to other customers how
>>>> much better they are than the Americans! but to expedite their dinner
>>>> in some way. It's called service.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> It's not just Americans. I am usually not in a hurry when I go out for
>>> drinks or dinner. If I don't have time for a nice leisurely meal I don't
>>> go to nice places. My younger brother is different. When he was with us
>>> in a bar in Paris he was upset about slow service. He expects that a
>>> waiter should be keeping an eye on the table and take new orders when he
>>> is half way through his beer so he will have a fresh cold one when he
>>> finished the first one. We are very different.
>>
>> That's the difference between a smart server and one with a job for
>> life. The smart ones size up the customer and being culturally aware,
>> steps up the service as necessary. I don't know about your brother,
>> but we tip anyway when we like the waiter/waitress. Ignore us and no
>> extra tip, because more than they deserve is already included on the
>> bill. Pay attention to us and figure out how fast or slow we want to
>> be served (ask directly, if you must) and we tip generously... over
>> and above what it says on the bill, in cash, so there's no confusion
>> that the money is to go to straight into the server's pocket.
>
> most resturants have a form of tip pooling. So, cash going directly into
> your server's pocket would not be fair, since they are also getting a port
> of the other servers' pooled tips.
>
>
>>
>> So -
>>
>> Dear European Waiters and Waitresses,
>>
>> Be snooty all you want. Make snide remarks and laugh at the Americans
>> behind their backs, but the purpose of going to work is to make enough
>> money to provide yourself with food, shelter and clothing. That's why
>> it's called a j-o-b, not an inheritance. Put on your game face and
>> adjust your attitude. The level of service depends on the individual
>> and being a multicultural society, you should be able to accommodate
>> for cultural differences. If you can't do that, then find a different
>> job because the one you have isn't for you.
>
> I have found European wait staff to be FAR more professional, respectful and
> courteous. In Europe, this is a profession. In the US, it is often a way
> station, until the server lands the job they are truly suited to and
> deserving of, you know, like A rated movie star, corporate president, and
> stuff like that.
>
>
It is indeed a specific profession in Europe, as opposed to a way
station - your observation is correct.

That being said, can they not recognize that different customers have
different needs and schedules?

Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?

On 7/6/2013 9:14 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Gary" > wrote in message ...
>> Ophelia wrote:
>>>
>>> "Sqwertz" wrote:
>>> > Gordon Ramsey always dines alone on his show. That's so other
>>> > customers won't feel uncomfortable when he stars badmouthing the same
>>> > food they're eating and enjoying.
>>> >
>>> > As a restaurant owner I would certainly segregate him somehow from the
>>> > rest of the public. Actually, I wouldn't even let him in my
>>> > well-regarded restaurant in the first place. That is, unless there's
>>> > some sort of law preventing asshole discrimination.
>>>
>>> +1 I can't stand the man!
>>
>> Keep in mind, this is reality TV which is always enhanced to the extreme
>> just to make ratings. I suspect that Gordon Ramsay isn't near as evil
>> as he
>> portrays himself to be. I think his temper is an "adopted personna" just
>> because it jacks the ratings on his shows. He has become the chef that
>> everyone loves to hate and he's taking the results to the bank every
>> week.
>
> Have you seen any of his other shows? Have a look at them!
>
Or for that matter check out the "River Cottage" series from Hugh
Fearnly Whittingstall - now that's classic Brit TV with NO attitude at all.

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:29:19 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:



> One of my trips was a total disaster.
>I went with two of my brothers and their wives. One SiL was always late.
>really late, and wanted to sit around the hotel until mid afternoon and
>expected everyone to wait for her. I don't do group trips anymore.
>

Last time I did a group trip was early 1970's. No more. Only
exception was the trips to Las Vegas for work. We'd go for a one day
seminar and make a four day get-away for about 5 or 6 couples. Most
of the guys played golf on Friday. I don't play so my job would be to
take the ladies out for the day, buy them lunch, etc.

We do travel with one other couple though. Easy to work with and
flexible. They enjoy some of the "changes" along the way and none of
us ever get frustrated by problems.

On 7/6/2013 10:18 AM, Gary wrote:
> casa bona wrote:
>>
>> On 7/5/2013 11:29 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>>>> If you find that reference arcane - look it up, troll.
>>>
>>> <yawn>
>>>
>>> -sw
>>>
>>
>> You are manifestly gutless, Spin.
>
> Here's a saying that I heard years ago:
> It's ok to talk to yourself
> And it's ok to answer yourself
> You only need to worry when you set up appointments to converse.
>
> ;-D
>
Lol.

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:22:28 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:


>I really can't correlate religious law with asking if dinner could
>be served in under 4 hours or whatever the norm is there. A request.
>

You're an American. They should accommodate you. Yes, a bit extreme,
but sometimes tourist do make strange requests (demands?) of their
host country.

>> If you don't like French dining, perhaps you should visit some other
>> country.
>
>No wonder they have a Be Polite to Tourists campaign going on if that's
>their prevailing attitude.
>
>nancy


The campaign is all about making money, not loving tourists. They
want our money so they will act polite.

How do you decide to visit s different state or country for vacation?
Most people read a bit about it, learn some of the customs, maybe even
learn a few words of the language. If I like what I see, I go. If I
don't like what I see, I stay home. It is fairly common knowledge
that many countries in Europe take a very slow pace to dining.

Now I do agree that the server could probably pick up the pace a bit,
but if a dish takes 45 minutes to cook, it is going to take 45 minutes
to hit the plate and to request faster in going to end poorly.

Many places in Europe to not open until 7 PM. Should they open earlier
at the request of Americans in a hurry? Hey, we eat at 5 at home and
expect to here too!

I'm probably a little one-sided here too as we enjoy the slow pace. I
don't like it when your entree is brought and the appetizer is not
finished or they dessert cart stops when you are on the last few bites
of your dish. We even had one place serve the entree before the
appetizer. At least they tried too.

My first experience with good service was on the very first day of our
very first trip to Rome. We checked in tot he hotel, took a nap, they
took a short walk. We stopped for a Gelato. We told the server what
flavors we wanted. He scooped them to a dish and we were shown to
seats and a small table. They brought the dishes of Gelato (ceramic,
not paper) and a tumbler of water. Only after we finished and relaxed
a bit did they give us a bill.

It was nothing like the pay/order here window and pick up window at
many US ice cream stands. Yes, I was already in love with Italian
dining at that point. Real class.

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:

> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?

When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 7/6/2013 11:33 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>
>> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?
>
> When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
> is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.
>
Yes, isn't that interesting. It's almost a hostage relationship.

On 7/6/2013 11:36 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Last time I did a group trip was early 1970's. No more. Only
> exception was the trips to Las Vegas for work. We'd go for a one day
> seminar and make a four day get-away for about 5 or 6 couples. Most
> of the guys played golf on Friday. I don't play so my job would be to
> take the ladies out for the day, buy them lunch, etc.


Part of our business is arranging group cruises. Most of our groups run
in the 80 to 120 people range, but we have had many over 200 people.
Our largest was 434 people.

Running a group can be like trying to herd cats.... but most of the
time, once we get everyone on the ship, things seem to calm down. Some
people need more help than others but all in all, it is usually more fun
than work.

Next Saturday we have 42 people joining us in Seattle and leaving on an
Alaska cruise. We are really looking forward to this.

George L

On 06/07/2013 12:15 PM, Gary wrote:
>
> When I get haircuts , I usually wait a little too long inbetween (2-3 per
> year). Haircuts are $17. I always pay them $22-25. Since I wait so long,
> I'm just happy to get a haircut. I tip them well thinking my overdue thing
> will take them a bit longer. I leave happy just to finally get a haircut
> and they are happy with a nice tip. I know a few people that go there, pay
> the $17 and leave them a dollar or two tip. tightwads.
>


For years I have been cutting my own hair. I got fed up with my wife
complaining about the hair cuts I was getting from barbers. I got a
professional cut for my mother's funeral 6 years ago and I got one a
couple months ago. My wife complained about that last one. $17 for a
job that took her less than 5 minutes. $5-6 tip for a 5 minute hair
cut???? She got to keep the change for a 20 and I am back to cutting my
own hair.

On 7/6/2013 1:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:22:28 -0400, Nancy Young
> > wrote:
>
>
>> I really can't correlate religious law with asking if dinner could
>> be served in under 4 hours or whatever the norm is there. A request.
>>
>
> You're an American. They should accommodate you.

No, they should explain why they can't accommodate you, or
try to accommodate you.

They shouldn't go sniffling around to other patrons about how
stupid the American's request was, when we don't even know why
they asked. Not that it matters in my book.

> Yes, a bit extreme,
> but sometimes tourist do make strange requests (demands?) of their
> host country.
>
>>> If you don't like French dining, perhaps you should visit some other
>>> country.
>>
>> No wonder they have a Be Polite to Tourists campaign going on if that's
>> their prevailing attitude.

> The campaign is all about making money, not loving tourists. They
> want our money so they will act polite.

Of course. I'm saying they actually have to explain this to the
business people, that's the pathetic part.

> How do you decide to visit s different state or country for vacation?
> Most people read a bit about it, learn some of the customs, maybe even
> learn a few words of the language. If I like what I see, I go. If I
> don't like what I see, I stay home. It is fairly common knowledge
> that many countries in Europe take a very slow pace to dining.
>
> Now I do agree that the server could probably pick up the pace a bit,
> but if a dish takes 45 minutes to cook, it is going to take 45 minutes
> to hit the plate and to request faster in going to end poorly.

Why not simply explain that to the customer. Not say EH HEH, This is
Paris!!

It's laughable. Like out of a comedy.

> Many places in Europe to not open until 7 PM. Should they open earlier
> at the request of Americans in a hurry? Hey, we eat at 5 at home and
> expect to here too!

Ed, I really don't get why a simple request would be viewed so harshly.
We don't even know why they asked.

> I'm probably a little one-sided here too as we enjoy the slow pace. I
> don't like it when your entree is brought and the appetizer is not
> finished or they dessert cart stops when you are on the last few bites
> of your dish. We even had one place serve the entree before the
> appetizer. At least they tried too.

I would not enjoy that experience, either. I have encountered that
once.

> My first experience with good service was on the very first day of our
> very first trip to Rome. We checked in tot he hotel, took a nap, they
> took a short walk. We stopped for a Gelato. We told the server what
> flavors we wanted. He scooped them to a dish and we were shown to
> seats and a small table. They brought the dishes of Gelato (ceramic,
> not paper) and a tumbler of water. Only after we finished and relaxed
> a bit did they give us a bill.
>
> It was nothing like the pay/order here window and pick up window at
> many US ice cream stands. Yes, I was already in love with Italian
> dining at that point. Real class.

While I would expect to pay first at a stand, if it was a place with
servers and tables, that would be a different matter.

But ... are you saying you thought that the gossiping waiter had
class, whereas the tourist who asked if service could be faster is
no class? I don't think they're being judged in the right order.
We'll have to agree to disagree.

nancy

On 06/07/2013 1:33 PM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>
>> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?
>
> When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
> is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.
>


Having been in France several times and in other European countries
where tipping is not expected, I don't think that tipping improves
service or server attitude. In most places we had excellent service.

On 06/07/2013 1:48 PM, George Leppla wrote:
> On 7/6/2013 11:36 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> Last time I did a group trip was early 1970's. No more. Only
>> exception was the trips to Las Vegas for work. We'd go for a one day
>> seminar and make a four day get-away for about 5 or 6 couples. Most
>> of the guys played golf on Friday. I don't play so my job would be to
>> take the ladies out for the day, buy them lunch, etc.
>
>
> Part of our business is arranging group cruises. Most of our groups run
> in the 80 to 120 people range, but we have had many over 200 people. Our
> largest was 434 people.
>
> Running a group can be like trying to herd cats.... but most of the
> time, once we get everyone on the ship, things seem to calm down. Some
> people need more help than others but all in all, it is usually more fun
> than work.
>
> Next Saturday we have 42 people joining us in Seattle and leaving on an
> Alaska cruise. We are really looking forward to this.


That is the advantage of an organized tour. There is a set itinerary and
departure times. It is my experience that with smaller, non
professional groups, you always end up waiting for someone. In some
cases, it is always the same person. Some people seem to enjoy keeping
others waiting. It is a silly little power trip. When I am on a trip I
want to see and so things. It is my money and my vacation time, so I
want to do what I want to do when I want to do it. I don't want to be
dragged along to see what someone else wants and I sure as hell don't
want my time wasted waiting for them.


Even professional tours can be disappointing in some cases. My neighbour
had a friend who booked a tour of the Mediterranean that included
Pompeii. Pompeii was the reason he chose that tour. There was a bit of a
clique in the tour group and they met with the guide the night before
the scheduled Pompeii visit and arranged for him to take them elsewhere.

I don't know what the outcome was, but the guy was furious. He was
adamant with the guide about going to Pompeii but was told the others
had voted for the other.

In article >,
says...
>
> On 7/6/2013 1:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:22:28 -0400, Nancy Young
> > > wrote:
> >
> >
> >> I really can't correlate religious law with asking if dinner could
> >> be served in under 4 hours or whatever the norm is there. A request.
> >>
> >
> > You're an American. They should accommodate you.
>
> No, they should explain why they can't accommodate you, or
> try to accommodate you.

Maybe the French staff did; in French or accented English and got
blank looks.

Janet UK

Gary wrote:
>Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>> When I'm
>> out of town and it's a one time event where I'll never be back I tip
>> the traditional 15%. But at home when at my usual haunts I don't need
>> to announce, they know I tip well, and that's why those are my usual
>> haunts... they invest in me with superior service and I invest in them
>> with superior tipping...
>
>I'm with you there. As I rarely go out to eat, I always tip well...25% or
>so. My daughter did waitressing for a few years so I know how they count on
>tips. I'll even do 25% if it's a serve-yourself buffet and some waitress
>checks on you once in awhile (to clean off the table). If you tip people
>well, they will remember you the next time you come and give you superior
>service.

I also don't go out to eat often as so many here seem to... I used to
eat out like twice a week but the last couple three years I've been
very disapponted in restaurant food so I'd rather eat my own cooking
at home... now I eat out like twice a month and nothing very pricey...
last time the dago joint a few miles down the road, they make
wonderful hot heros and very affordable... my favorite is their huge
sawseege parm w/peppers n' onions; $7.95 and I bring half home for
lunch the next day. Not the fancy-schmanciest joint but darn good
food, excellent service, and great value for hillybilly land:
http://www.paulspizzaandpasta.com/

>When I get haircuts , I usually wait a little too long inbetween (2-3 per
>year). Haircuts are $17. I always pay them $22-25. Since I wait so long,
>I'm just happy to get a haircut. I tip them well thinking my overdue thing
>will take them a bit longer. I leave happy just to finally get a haircut
>and they are happy with a nice tip. I know a few people that go there, pay
>the $17 and leave them a dollar or two tip. tightwads.

Ditto... I also get my haircut 2-3 times a year (GI cut), I hate
getting my hair cut so get it sheared as short as possible, my hair is
thick, no bald spots and grows fast. I've been going to the same
salon for ten years, I phone for an appointment and Lynn always fits
me in. The damage began at $14 ten years ago and is now up to a huge
$16... I always hand her $25 and say thank you.

In article >,
says...
>
> That is the advantage of an organized tour. There is a set itinerary and
> departure times. It is my experience that with smaller, non
> professional groups, you always end up waiting for someone. In some
> cases, it is always the same person. Some people seem to enjoy keeping
> others waiting. It is a silly little power trip.

I am betting George will tell you, tour organisers face exactly the
same problem when the clients are on land.

Janet UK

On 7/6/2013 4:43 AM, Janet wrote:
> In article om>,
> says...
>>
>> On 7/5/2013 10:50 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>>
>>> As a restaurant owner I would certainly segregate him somehow from the
>>> rest of the public. Actually, I wouldn't even let him in my
>>> well-regarded restaurant in the first place. That is, unless there's
>>> some sort of law preventing asshole discrimination.
>>>
>>> -sw
>>>
>> Do you suppose he travels with cameras all the time? It wouldn't
>> surprise me if he did. I guess it also depends on what he was doing
>> dining in that restaurant in the first place.
>
> Pity you didn't read the link. He was on a fishing holiday with
> friends; they went out for dinner.
>
> If he was there with a
>> large group I'd think he was there with a production group of some kind.
>
> Fishermen on holiday do not tend to move round in large mobs.
>
> I can't believe the naivete.
>
> GR's TV show, is about failing businesses that have ASKED to be on a
> TV show in which GR will tell them what they're doing wrong and what to
> do to put it right. IOW, its all arranged in advance at the owners
> request. He does NOT turn up unexpectedly (with an entire production
> crew). It's a highly predictable formula, there's no secret about it or
> how he behaves on the show, every restaurant owner knew that when they
> put their own name forward to take part.
>
> You can't seriously think he takes a TV production crew with him in
> his private social life?
>
> Janet UK
>
Yeah, I think some pretty stupid things some times. I should edit myself
better.


--
CAPSLOCK–Preventing Login Since 1980.

On 7/6/2013 2:44 PM, Janet wrote:
> says...
>>
>> On 7/6/2013 1:06 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>>> You're an American. They should accommodate you.
>>
>> No, they should explain why they can't accommodate you, or
>> try to accommodate you.
>
> Maybe the French staff did; in French or accented English and got
> blank looks.

Thing is, that wasn't in the telling of the story. They were
simply told that they were in France. As in, no we won't help
you out. We will, however, snicker behind your back.

nancy

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:

>On 7/6/2013 8:56 AM, Pico Rico wrote:
>> "sf" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 08:58:39 -0400, Dave Smith
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/07/2013 8:54 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm saying that if a customer does not care to sit for hours (not
>>>>> feeling well? Exhausted after a long day of sightseeing? Have to get
>>>>> up at 4am to catch a plane? Whatever) the response isn't to sniff
>>>>> superiorly that this is Paris and go whisper to other customers how
>>>>> much better they are than the Americans! but to expedite their dinner
>>>>> in some way. It's called service.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It's not just Americans. I am usually not in a hurry when I go out for
>>>> drinks or dinner. If I don't have time for a nice leisurely meal I don't
>>>> go to nice places. My younger brother is different. When he was with us
>>>> in a bar in Paris he was upset about slow service. He expects that a
>>>> waiter should be keeping an eye on the table and take new orders when he
>>>> is half way through his beer so he will have a fresh cold one when he
>>>> finished the first one. We are very different.
>>>
>>> That's the difference between a smart server and one with a job for
>>> life. The smart ones size up the customer and being culturally aware,
>>> steps up the service as necessary. I don't know about your brother,
>>> but we tip anyway when we like the waiter/waitress. Ignore us and no
>>> extra tip, because more than they deserve is already included on the
>>> bill. Pay attention to us and figure out how fast or slow we want to
>>> be served (ask directly, if you must) and we tip generously... over
>>> and above what it says on the bill, in cash, so there's no confusion
>>> that the money is to go to straight into the server's pocket.
>>
>> most resturants have a form of tip pooling. So, cash going directly into
>> your server's pocket would not be fair, since they are also getting a port
>> of the other servers' pooled tips.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> So -
>>>
>>> Dear European Waiters and Waitresses,
>>>
>>> Be snooty all you want. Make snide remarks and laugh at the Americans
>>> behind their backs, but the purpose of going to work is to make enough
>>> money to provide yourself with food, shelter and clothing. That's why
>>> it's called a j-o-b, not an inheritance. Put on your game face and
>>> adjust your attitude. The level of service depends on the individual
>>> and being a multicultural society, you should be able to accommodate
>>> for cultural differences. If you can't do that, then find a different
>>> job because the one you have isn't for you.
>>
>> I have found European wait staff to be FAR more professional, respectful and
>> courteous. In Europe, this is a profession. In the US, it is often a way
>> station, until the server lands the job they are truly suited to and
>> deserving of, you know, like A rated movie star, corporate president, and
>> stuff like that.
>>
>>
>It is indeed a specific profession in Europe, as opposed to a way
>station - your observation is correct.

I don't agree (perhaps yoose only frequent fast food/chain joints),
many folks in the US make restaurant server their life career, and
pull down very good money. This evening I'm attending The Big Bash
BBQ at Thunderhart, their club house restaurant servers have been
employed there for many years, they earn over a Grand a week in
tips... golf and ski resort resto workers all make big bucks. Hey
Andy, let's have a cold one at the 19th hole!
http://www.greatnortherncatskills.co...rse-sunny-hill

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 14:05:52 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:



>
>But ... are you saying you thought that the gossiping waiter had
>class, whereas the tourist who asked if service could be faster is
>no class? I don't think they're being judged in the right order.
>We'll have to agree to disagree.
>
>nancy
>

No, never said that. Anyone gossiping has no class be it in the US or
Europe. Some requests are easily satisfied, others, less so. While
it does sound like the waiter make little or no effort, what could be
done for the table has many factors in it. What did they order? How
busy is the kitchen?

Simple answer should have been "I'll see what I can do" even if he did
nothing.

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 14:05:24 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:



>
>For years I have been cutting my own hair. I got fed up with my wife
>complaining about the hair cuts I was getting from barbers. I got a
>professional cut for my mother's funeral 6 years ago and I got one a
>couple months ago. My wife complained about that last one. $17 for a
>job that took her less than 5 minutes. $5-6 tip for a 5 minute hair
>cut???? She got to keep the change for a 20 and I am back to cutting my
>own hair.

I've not been to (or needed) a barber for at least 10 years now. A
Wahl clipper with #1 attachment does fine now. Once or twice a week
I'll run it over the back and sides of the head and I'm done.

Hair is over rated. I should have started doing this years before.

On 06/07/2013 3:04 PM, Janet wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>> That is the advantage of an organized tour. There is a set itinerary and
>> departure times. It is my experience that with smaller, non
>> professional groups, you always end up waiting for someone. In some
>> cases, it is always the same person. Some people seem to enjoy keeping
>> others waiting. It is a silly little power trip.
>
> I am betting George will tell you, tour organisers face exactly the
> same problem when the clients are on land.
>
> Janet UK
>


Probably. My parents took a few bus tours through Europe and there
always seemed to be one or two people who were always late and holding
everyone up, or someone who was an obnoxious PITA, or a mooch.

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:35:39 -0600, casa bona > wrote:

> On 7/6/2013 11:33 AM, sf wrote:
> > On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
> >
> >> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?
> >
> > When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
> > is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.
> >
> Yes, isn't that interesting. It's almost a hostage relationship.

Hostage? No, they see it as a right.

Students rioted a few years ago when the government pushed the job for
life concept back so they would be on probation for the first two
years and could be fired without cause at any time.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031601908.html

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:16:04 -0400, Gary > wrote:

>Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>> I'm saying that if a customer does not care to sit for hours (not
>> feeling well? Exhausted after a long day of sightseeing? Have to get
>> up at 4am to catch a plane? Whatever)
>
>Hang on a second here while I find my violin.
>
>
>> the response isn't to sniff
>> superiorly that this is Paris and go whisper to other customers how
>> much better they are than the Americans! but to expedite their dinner
>> in some way. It's called service.
>
>Answer that problem is: McDonalds

Yep

>PS. Americans complaining about things while in other countries is one more
>reason the rest of the world often thinks of us as arrogant. "When in Rome,
>do like the Romans"

A voice of reason.
Europe and the rest of the world are not obligated to be like the U.S.

On 06/07/2013 3:11 PM, Nancy Young wrote:

>
> Thing is, that wasn't in the telling of the story. They were
> simply told that they were in France. As in, no we won't help
> you out. We will, however, snicker behind your back.


You have to understand, being in a major tourist city they had probably
all seen more than their share of American tourists, and you have to
admit that some of them are the basis of the stereotypes. I ran into a
few in my travels, like a girl in a food stand in Strasbourg who was
speaking louder and louder instead of trying French to tell the girl
that she wanted some KETCHUP!! IN A PACKETE!!! TO GO!!!! A day or two
later I was talking to another American girl who first thought I was
from California but when I told her I was Canadian she commented that it
must be horrible to be ruled by a queen.

Most of the others I met over there were very pleasant.

On 7/5/2013 9:41 PM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 7/5/2013 9:20 PM, Cheri wrote:
>> "graham" > snarled
>
>>> "Nancy Young" > wrote
>
>>>> Nothing wrong with that, and I've seen my share of jerks who linger
>>>> over empty glasses forever all the while you see people are waiting
>>>> to sit down, so I think it's nice that you'd finish up and free the
>>>> table.
>>>>
>>> Oh! FFS! Relax!!!!! If you want a fast turn around, go to McD's!!
>>> Graham
>>
>> Well, if you want to linger forever, go to McD's, preferably the
>> drive-thru and take it home.
>
> Honestly, stay how long you want, but once the bill's been settled
> and you see people are waiting, move on. Or order another drink.
> Either way.
>
> nancy
>
>
Yep, I agree with that. If you're done and have settled the bill,
there's no reason to sit there interminably. It would be different if
the restaurant was practically empty...

Jill

On 7/6/2013 12:08 AM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 7/5/2013 9:13 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>> It's not a matter of being a dick. You are a paying customer and you
>> suddenly find yourself being treated like a second class citizen. Your
>> money is as good as the celebrity. The owner can let you finish the meal
>> you are paying for and reserve the table for the celebrity.
>>
>> If the owner really wants to make brownie points with a celebrity he
>> can keep the kitchen open late and offer some special dishes.
>>
>
> I'd bet if the owner is going through all of the "trouble" of moving
> other customers, he probably isn't even charging GR and his entourage
> for their meal. It's all on the house.
>
We'll probably never know. The article gave *very* little detail.

Jill

On 7/6/2013 3:42 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 14:05:52 -0400, Nancy Young
> > wrote:

>> But ... are you saying you thought that the gossiping waiter had
>> class, whereas the tourist who asked if service could be faster is
>> no class? I don't think they're being judged in the right order.
>> We'll have to agree to disagree.

> No, never said that. Anyone gossiping has no class be it in the US or
> Europe. Some requests are easily satisfied, others, less so. While
> it does sound like the waiter make little or no effort, what could be
> done for the table has many factors in it. What did they order? How
> busy is the kitchen?
>
> Simple answer should have been "I'll see what I can do" even if he did
> nothing.

That would be the best response of all, agreed.

nancy

On 7/6/2013 5:43 PM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 7/5/2013 9:41 PM, Nancy Young wrote:

>> Honestly, stay how long you want, but once the bill's been settled
>> and you see people are waiting, move on. Or order another drink.
>> Either way.

> Yep, I agree with that. If you're done and have settled the bill,
> there's no reason to sit there interminably. It would be different if
> the restaurant was practically empty...

I did that inadvertently, but only for a minute or so. I had paid
the bill and was kind of moseying when I turned around and there
was a couple waiting for our seats. Ooops. I said sorry! but they
were very nice about it.

nancy

On 7/6/2013 12:19 AM, Cheryl wrote:
> On 7/5/2013 10:50 PM, Sqwertz wrote:
>
>> As a restaurant owner I would certainly segregate him somehow from the
>> rest of the public. Actually, I wouldn't even let him in my
>> well-regarded restaurant in the first place. That is, unless there's
>> some sort of law preventing asshole discrimination.
>>
>> -sw
>>
> Do you suppose he travels with cameras all the time? It wouldn't
> surprise me if he did. I guess it also depends on what he was doing
> dining in that restaurant in the first place. If he was there with a
> large group I'd think he was there with a production group of some kind.
>
No mention in the article about cameras or even much advance notice. So
we don't know. He went to Iceland to go fishing with friends. That
much the article *did* say.

Jill

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 13:22:58 -0700, sf > wrote:

>On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:35:39 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>
>> On 7/6/2013 11:33 AM, sf wrote:
>> > On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>> >
>> >> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?
>> >
>> > When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
>> > is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.
>> >
>> Yes, isn't that interesting. It's almost a hostage relationship.
>
>Hostage? No, they see it as a right.
>
>Students rioted a few years ago when the government pushed the job for
>life concept back so they would be on probation for the first two
>years and could be fired without cause at any time.
>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031601908.html


The French do think different than the rest of us. Can a country that
idolizes Jerry Lewis be normal?

On 7/6/2013 10:24 AM, Gary wrote:
> Ophelia wrote:
>>
>> "Sqwertz" wrote:
>>> Gordon Ramsey always dines alone on his show. That's so other
>>> customers won't feel uncomfortable when he stars badmouthing the same
>>> food they're eating and enjoying.
>>>
>>> As a restaurant owner I would certainly segregate him somehow from the
>>> rest of the public. Actually, I wouldn't even let him in my
>>> well-regarded restaurant in the first place. That is, unless there's
>>> some sort of law preventing asshole discrimination.
>>
>> +1 I can't stand the man!
>
> Keep in mind, this is reality TV which is always enhanced to the extreme
> just to make ratings. I suspect that Gordon Ramsay isn't near as evil as he
> portrays himself to be. I think his temper is an "adopted personna" just
> because it jacks the ratings on his shows. He has become the chef that
> everyone loves to hate and he's taking the results to the bank every week.
>
> G.
>
I do believe it's a public persona. He's been married for 17 years and
they have four children. I doubt he goes around the house cursing and
screaming. He might, but somehow I don't think so. I saw a Youtube
video of him teaching how to make a good scrambled egg breakfast.

He burned the toast and said "Damn, I almost set off the fire alarms.
That'll wake up and that will wake up the missus.

Oh, and he has a fooseball table in his kitchen. LOL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUP7U5vTMM0

Television aside, I seriously doubt this man would have as many
successful restaurants if he was a total ass all the time. Especially
not to the staff who run those restaurants for him. He can't be in all
those places at once. I've no doubt he drops in to check on things
without advance notice. My 2 cents.

Jill

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 19:17:46 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 13:22:58 -0700, sf > wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:35:39 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
> >
> >> On 7/6/2013 11:33 AM, sf wrote:
> >> > On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?
> >> >
> >> > When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
> >> > is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.
> >> >
> >> Yes, isn't that interesting. It's almost a hostage relationship.
> >
> >Hostage? No, they see it as a right.
> >
> >Students rioted a few years ago when their government pushed the job for
> >life concept back so they would be on probation for the first two
> >years and could be fired without cause at any time.
> >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031601908.html
>
>
> The French do think different than the rest of us. Can a country that
> idolizes Jerry Lewis be normal?

Ha! Well said, Ed.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

On 7/6/2013 2:22 PM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:35:39 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>
>> On 7/6/2013 11:33 AM, sf wrote:
>>> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?
>>>
>>> When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
>>> is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.
>>>
>> Yes, isn't that interesting. It's almost a hostage relationship.
>
> Hostage? No, they see it as a right.

Ok, that really ups the ante!

> Students rioted a few years ago when the government pushed the job for
> life concept back so they would be on probation for the first two
> years and could be fired without cause at any time.
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031601908.html

I am surprised to find that I agree with them, they're at the opposite
end of ageism - a blatant form of discrimination generally against elders.

How can a "without cause" law be something anyone would pass, especially
the French?

And thank you for a great archival fins on that article.

On 7/6/2013 4:29 PM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 7/6/2013 12:08 AM, Cheryl wrote:
>> On 7/5/2013 9:13 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>> It's not a matter of being a dick. You are a paying customer and you
>>> suddenly find yourself being treated like a second class citizen. Your
>>> money is as good as the celebrity. The owner can let you finish the meal
>>> you are paying for and reserve the table for the celebrity.
>>>
>>> If the owner really wants to make brownie points with a celebrity he
>>> can keep the kitchen open late and offer some special dishes.
>>>
>>
>> I'd bet if the owner is going through all of the "trouble" of moving
>> other customers, he probably isn't even charging GR and his entourage
>> for their meal. It's all on the house.
>>
> We'll probably never know. The article gave *very* little detail.
>
> Jill
>
>
You must not have read the other articles I posted to context this - oh
the travails of the killfile, eh?

On 7/6/2013 5:17 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 13:22:58 -0700, sf > wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 11:35:39 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/6/2013 11:33 AM, sf wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 10:33:36 -0600, casa bona > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Is there some objection to more revenues per table due to faster turnover?
>>>>
>>>> When it's a job for life, as it is in France, the only one who cares
>>>> is the restaurant owner... but we never hear about what they think.
>>>>
>>> Yes, isn't that interesting. It's almost a hostage relationship.
>>
>> Hostage? No, they see it as a right.
>>
>> Students rioted a few years ago when the government pushed the job for
>> life concept back so they would be on probation for the first two
>> years and could be fired without cause at any time.
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031601908.html
>
>
> The French do think different than the rest of us. Can a country that
> idolizes Jerry Lewis be normal?
>


Lol, NO!

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 18:39:16 -0600, casa bona > wrote:

> How can a "without cause" law be something anyone would pass, especially
> the French?

We have "at will" employment here in the USA.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.