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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 15:04:36 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote:

> On 9/12/2013 1:57 PM, sf wrote:
> > On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 11:08:32 -0400, Nancy Young
> > > wrote:
> >
> >> On 9/12/2013 10:16 AM, Ophelia wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> "Cheryl" > wrote

>
> >>>> I like the name Stalky Stalkerton.
> >>>
> >>> Hmm it does have a certain ring to it.
> >>
> >> Why, oh why? didn't I name my cat that. Describes her to a T.
> >>

> > Maybe the next one?

>
> Maybe if it's a stalking nut job like this one. Ninja cat.
>

I like that, especially if it's all black.


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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

On 9/6/13 5:18 PM, ImStillMags wrote:

>>
>>
>> That's precisely what's already done in the US. Any server willing
>>
>> to work hard can earn a pretty darn good living wage... the slackers
>>
>> tend not to last very long so the subject is moot.

>
>
>
> No it's not, Sheldon. Washington is the only state I know that requires minimum wage be paid to servers. Every other state makes an "allowance" to restaurants to pay $3 o4 $4 an hour, so servers MUST depend on tips.
>


Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish
dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips.
She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips.
One size does not fit all.
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On 9/7/13 9:10 AM, George Leppla wrote:

> On land, I would prefer that servers be paid a living wage and not have
> to rely on tips. I've had a couple of jobs where I depended on tips
> (waiter, cab driver) and it gives you a whole new perspective on people.
>
> George L


One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is?
Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four?
Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become
accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever)
or what?
WHAT *is* a "living wage"??
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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question


"Goomba" > wrote in message
...
> On 9/6/13 5:18 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's precisely what's already done in the US. Any server willing
>>>
>>> to work hard can earn a pretty darn good living wage... the slackers
>>>
>>> tend not to last very long so the subject is moot.

>>
>>
>>
>> No it's not, Sheldon. Washington is the only state I know that requires
>> minimum wage be paid to servers. Every other state makes an "allowance"
>> to restaurants to pay $3 o4 $4 an hour, so servers MUST depend on tips.
>>

>
> Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish
> dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips.
> She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips.
> One size does not fit all.


Some people tip well. People that have been drinking can tip *really* well!
I worked at a golf course and sold pre-packaged snacks and also beer and
soda in cans. People often tipped me $1 per can or snack purchase. I did
hand them the snacks from behind the counter but the drinks were self serve
from a cooler. Crazy! But I suppose they took pity on me knowing that I
was working for less than minimum wage. I did not take the job to make
money. I took it out of boredom.

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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:08:02 -0400, Goomba >
wrote:


>
>Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish
>dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips.
>She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips.
>One size does not fit all.


Even a poor waitress should be able to make 8-ish an hour. When my
daughter was in school many years ago (25?) she made about $10 at a
local family place. In spite of regulations, much of it is tax free.
And every day is payday.


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On 2013-09-14 3:08 AM, Goomba wrote:

>
> Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish
> dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips.
> She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips.
> One size does not fit all.



Well yeah.... if you use the $8 figure. What if it was a livable wage,
one that you would get even though you worked in a tourist joint that
catered to British and German tourists, or people from other cultures
who are not used to the tipping culture.
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:13:52 -0400, Goomba >
wrote:


>
>One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is?
>Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four?
>Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become
>accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever)
>or what?
>WHAT *is* a "living wage"??


There will never be a clear definition. Start with a surviving wage
that gets you the barest of living and nourishing food and work up.
The US minimum wage does not even allow for that in most cases unless
you are living at home and use public transportation. That $7.50 is
livable for a high school student doing part time work after school.

I figure if you can't pay $10 an hour today for unskilled labor, you
probably should not even be in business. People that I know that rent
are paying $750 to $1200 a month in this area. You can barely cover
that at minimum wage so you need at least two incomes for the basics.

You mention smokes. A guy at work is having a tough time paying his
bills and can't make a credit card payment. He told me this hours
after he told me he spent $60 for a round of golf the day before and
he spends $400 a month on cigarettes. If we double his already good
wage, he'd be back in debt in a month due to the lack of self control.
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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:08:02 -0400, Goomba >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish
> >dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips.
> >She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips.
> >One size does not fit all.

>
> Even a poor waitress should be able to make 8-ish an hour. When my
> daughter was in school many years ago (25?) she made about $10 at a
> local family place. In spite of regulations, much of it is tax free.
> And every day is payday.


It really all depends on what restaurant you work at. And also what
shift you work. My daughter waitressed at a high end restaurant during
lunch shifts and got very little in tips. Working at a high-end
restaurant during the evening shifts, she often made more than I did
each day.

G.
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On 2013-09-14 3:13 AM, Goomba wrote:

> One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is?
> Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four?
> Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become
> accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever)
> or what?
> WHAT *is* a "living wage"??



Are you really seriously trying to quibble over what a "living wage" is
after having posted something about a waitress opting for tips overs am
hourly rate of $8?
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On 2013-09-14 10:58 AM, Janet wrote:
..
>
> Brits ARE used to tipping at home, but with a different perception
> from the USA of circumstances when tipping is expected, and the amount
> to tip. We expect to tip for table service in restaurants (between 10%
> and 15 % of the bill) unless "service charge" has been automatically
> added to the bill; but not at self- service food counters. It's normal
> to tip taxi drivers too.


Maybe they tip at home. Over here they are notorious for not tipping. I
have some Dutch friends who cringe at the idea of being expected to tip
at all. We talked about tipping practices with a (French) waiter in a
restaurant in Bavaria. He said that he was well paid and did not expect
tips, but if anyone wanted to give him their money he would gladly take
it. He said that Germans leave small tips and that the French are really
cheap.


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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:42:53 +0100, Janet > wrote:



> Other countries, evidently not the US, have an hourly-rate minimum
>wage. In the UK, it's £6.31 sterling per hour for adults. Employers are
>legally obliged to pay this rate regardless of the type of work or
>number of hours worked.
> https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-...e-minimum-wage
>


That translates to about $10 US


> This is not to be confused with the UK Living Wage, which is £7.45
>per hour (higher in London). Many businesses and govt departments pay at
>least Living Wage.
>
> http://www.citizensuk.org/campaigns/...wage-campaign/
>


That is about $11.83 US or 5.6 Euro

The US has a minimum wage of $7.25, but some states have higher
minimums, maybe another dollar or so.

If you make a large portion of your wage from tips, such as waitstaff,
the minimum is lower. It can be as low as $2.13

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm
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In article >,
says...
>
> On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:42:53 +0100, Janet > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Other countries, evidently not the US, have an hourly-rate minimum
> >wage. In the UK, it's £6.31 sterling per hour for adults. Employers are
> >legally obliged to pay this rate regardless of the type of work or
> >number of hours worked.
> >
https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-...e-minimum-wage
> >

>
> That translates to about $10 US
>
>
> > This is not to be confused with the UK Living Wage, which is £7.45
> >per hour (higher in London). Many businesses and govt departments pay at
> >least Living Wage.
> >
> > http://www.citizensuk.org/campaigns/...wage-campaign/
> >

>
> That is about $11.83 US or 5.6 Euro
>
> The US has a minimum wage of $7.25, but some states have higher
> minimums, maybe another dollar or so.
>
> If you make a large portion of your wage from tips, such as waitstaff,
> the minimum is lower. It can be as low as $2.13
>
> http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm


:-( So why call $7.25 a minimum wage if some people are paid just a
third of that amount? How can customer tips ever be part of the wages
paid by employer?

Janet UK




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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 11:34:32 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> He said that Germans leave small tips and that the French are really
> cheap.


Maybe they've changed. I heard Germans were the worst and nobody
wanted to wait on them because they never leave a tip. We seem to
have a lot of French tourists around here lately (in the non-tourist
section of town), so I should ask a wait person sometime what they
think and update my opinion on the subject.

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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:08:02 -0400, Goomba >
wrote:

>On 9/6/13 5:18 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
>>>
>>>
>>> That's precisely what's already done in the US. Any server willing
>>>
>>> to work hard can earn a pretty darn good living wage... the slackers
>>>
>>> tend not to last very long so the subject is moot.

>>
>>
>>
>> No it's not, Sheldon. Washington is the only state I know that requires minimum wage be paid to servers. Every other state makes an "allowance" to restaurants to pay $3 o4 $4 an hour, so servers MUST depend on tips.
>>

>
>Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish
>dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips.
>She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips.
>One size does not fit all.


At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an
hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any
server want $8/hr salary instead. Obviously it's only the cheapo
******* patrons who don't believe in tipping who think waitstaff
should be salaried... little do the cheapo *******s realize that if
the proprietor has to pay a salary the menu would reflect a 20%
increase, the portions would reflect a 20% decrease, and quality would
suffer immeasurably. I've eaten in countries that don't tip, service
and food sucks... not to mention everything is unclean.
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On 2013-09-14 4:15 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
..
>
> At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an
> hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any
> server want $8/hr salary instead. Obviously it's only the cheapo
> ******* patrons who don't believe in tipping who think waitstaff
> should be salaried... little do the cheapo *******s realize that if
> the proprietor has to pay a salary the menu would reflect a 20%
> increase, the portions would reflect a 20% decrease, and quality would
> suffer immeasurably. I've eaten in countries that don't tip, service
> and food sucks... not to mention everything is unclean.
>


I would be curious to see the calculation that would lead an employer to
have to increase menu prices by 20% in order to pay their staff the same
money they are now making with tips that run around 15%. Since you claim
to be tipping generously, would you not already be paying that amount
anyway? You can pay $10 for a dish and then throw in an extra $1.50 for
the 15% tip, which totals $11.50, or you can pay $11.50 for the meal and
not be expected to leave a tip. It is still $11.50.
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:13:52 -0400, Goomba >
wrote:

>On 9/7/13 9:10 AM, George Leppla wrote:
>
>> On land, I would prefer that servers be paid a living wage and not have
>> to rely on tips. I've had a couple of jobs where I depended on tips
>> (waiter, cab driver) and it gives you a whole new perspective on people.
>>
>> George L

>
>One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is?
>Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four?
>Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become
>accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever)
>or what?
>WHAT *is* a "living wage"??


I think that would depend on who you ask, everyone lives differently.
A LOT of folks nowadays have a passel of kids by a slew of women and
the only money they're concerned about is having enough for their next
drug fix. The women don't care about anything other than how best to
play public assistance and live on the dole, and how often they need
to sell their ass to pay for their drug fix.

Entry level jobs are meant for teens and students, but unfortunately
too many nowadays (the lazy useless *******s-waste of protoplasm)
rather than educate/train themselves to accquire more marketable
skills make those minimum wage jobs a career. When TF (The ****) did
Burger Flipper become a career??? The ONLY reason the economy sucks
(and for no other reason whatsoever) is because the word "Apprentice"
has become obsolete.
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:38:35 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:
> >

>
> I would be curious to see the calculation that would lead an employer to
> have to increase menu prices by 20% in order to pay their staff the same
> money they are now making with tips that run around 15%. Since you claim
> to be tipping generously, would you not already be paying that amount
> anyway? You can pay $10 for a dish and then throw in an extra $1.50 for
> the 15% tip, which totals $11.50, or you can pay $11.50 for the meal and
> not be expected to leave a tip. It is still $11.50.


It's a matter of perception. Increased menu prices often means more
goes into the pocket of the employer/owner, not the servers. We in
the US still value labor and have a healthy skepticism about how much
an employer values his/her employees. As a general rule, management
pays workers no more than absolutely necessary; so this is one way to
make sure labor is well compensated. We prefer the direct approach,
leaving out the middleman - which in this case is management.

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On 9/14/2013 4:38 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

>
> I would be curious to see the calculation that would lead an employer to
> have to increase menu prices by 20% in order to pay their staff the same
> money they are now making with tips that run around 15%.


Right, I'd guess 25% or more. The employer has to pa SS tax on those
wages, it will affect his rate on Workman's Comp. insurance. will affect
some other taxes too. Sales tax has to be paid by the customer making
that $1 tip a cost of perhaps $1.07 on the total

On a corporate level, it would reduce profits as a percentage. Income of
gross sales shows a 15% increase but profit as a percentage went down.
That does not sit well with the big chains and their bankers.

It seems so easy but has many repurcussions.






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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

In article >, gravesend10
@verizon.net says...
> At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an
> hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any
> server want $8/hr salary instead.


Why should it be "instead"? Pay them a living wage like a dignified
human being. Any tips are a bonus.

Janet UK
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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Goomba wrote:
>>
>>One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is?
>>Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four?
>>Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become
>>accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever)
>>or what?
>>WHAT *is* a "living wage"??

>
>There will never be a clear definition.


Of course there is, a living wage is dependant upon how one lives...
for a teen/student it's pocket money while living under mommy and
daddy's roof, in fact they should contribute something for room and
board. And for older people they need to advance their marketable
skills so that they can earn enough to live in whatever circumstances
they desire... if the best they can do is opperate a dozer for the
highway department they can still support a family and live decently.

>Start with a surviving wage
>that gets you the barest of living and nourishing food and work up.
>The US minimum wage does not even allow for that in most cases unless
>you are living at home and use public transportation. That $7.50 is
>livable for a high school student doing part time work after school.
>
>I figure if you can't pay $10 an hour today for unskilled labor, you
>probably should not even be in business.


Nonsense... that's a hipocracy to what you started out saying, about
"working up". Mommy and daddy can subsidize their no skill kids, NOT
an employer... small companies can't pay more than minimum wage for
unskilled workers... if you operated a neighborhood grocery store you
couldn't pay more than minimum wage for some teen to stock your
shelves and sweep your floors. When I was a teen in high school I
worked for mom n'pops and was very happy to receive minimum wage, but
I knew then that was not going to be my life's work.

>People that I know that rent
>are paying $750 to $1200 a month in this area. You can barely cover
>that at minimum wage so you need at least two incomes for the basics.


Puh-Leeze... no one with minimum wage can afford even $500/mo rent,
eat, pay utilities, and drive a car to work that miserable job.
Minimum wage is for while in training, not for a career. WTF do
people think they should be able to support a family as a burger
flipper... don't bother to answer or you'll be dumber than a burger
flipper.
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On 2013-09-14 5:10 PM, sf wrote:

>
> It's a matter of perception. Increased menu prices often means more
> goes into the pocket of the employer/owner, not the servers. We in
> the US still value labor and have a healthy skepticism about how much
> an employer values his/her employees.


Americans value labour?????
???????????????
Yeah. Right.



> As a general rule, management
> pays workers no more than absolutely necessary; so this is one way to
> make sure labor is well compensated. We prefer the direct approach,
> leaving out the middleman - which in this case is management.


Yet, there are only a few occupations where tips are expected. It's a
safe bet that the clerk at the local convenience store makes more than
minimum wage, but you don't tip him. Most people don't tip for counter
service. You tip your hair dresser but you don't expect to tip your dry
cleaner. People here have commented that they like to tip in cash so
that the server can pocket it. They resent the concept of tip back,
where servers have to give a percentage of their tips to the bartender,
cooks, dishwashers etc. They are probably all making minimum and they
all have to work together to make your meal happen.

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On 2013-09-14 6:19 PM, Janet wrote:
> In article >, gravesend10
> @verizon.net says...
>> At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an
>> hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any
>> server want $8/hr salary instead.

>
> Why should it be "instead"? Pay them a living wage like a dignified
> human being. Any tips are a bonus.
>
>

Or..... pay them a base rate and commission.

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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 18:33:08 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 2013-09-14 5:10 PM, sf wrote:
>
> >
> > It's a matter of perception. Increased menu prices often means more
> > goes into the pocket of the employer/owner, not the servers. We in
> > the US still value labor and have a healthy skepticism about how much
> > an employer values his/her employees.

>
> Americans value labour?????
> ???????????????
> Yeah. Right.
>

Except in red states, of course - that excludes the entire South where
(surprise, surprise) manufacturing plants are being set up. Guess
what will come next? Unions.
>
>
> > As a general rule, management
> > pays workers no more than absolutely necessary; so this is one way to
> > make sure labor is well compensated. We prefer the direct approach,
> > leaving out the middleman - which in this case is management.

>
> Yet, there are only a few occupations where tips are expected. It's a
> safe bet that the clerk at the local convenience store makes more than
> minimum wage, but you don't tip him. Most people don't tip for counter
> service. You tip your hair dresser but you don't expect to tip your dry
> cleaner. People here have commented that they like to tip in cash so
> that the server can pocket it.


I agree with that.

> They resent the concept of tip back,


I don't agree with that. Bartenders get tipped and in turn give their
bar backs part of it. You should already know that.

> where servers have to give a percentage of their tips to the bartender,
> cooks, dishwashers etc. They are probably all making minimum and they
> all have to work together to make your meal happen.


Absolutely! There have been times that the periphery staff, usually a
busboy, has gone out of their way to be helpful. That person might be
particularly helpful because the server is generous, but at those
times - I make sure $5 goes directly into that person's hand and I
don't deduct it from the server's tip either. Another time to time
tip is to the guy who grills my meat over coals at a "Joe's" we go to.
I like sitting right in front of the grill so I know how hot it is for
him standing there an entire shift and he always does such a good job,
no matter what kind of meat it is.

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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 23:19:44 +0100, Janet > wrote:

> In article >, gravesend10
> @verizon.net says...
> > At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an
> > hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any
> > server want $8/hr salary instead.

>
> Why should it be "instead"? Pay them a living wage like a dignified
> human being. Any tips are a bonus.
>

I wish that would be the case. Pay them a decent wage and let us tip
at will.


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Default To tip or have a service charge.......that is the question

On Friday, September 6, 2013 12:36:21 PM UTC-7, ImStillMags wrote:

Tips and Poverty
By THE EDITORIAL BOARD NY Times
Published: September 14, 2013


When The Times’s restaurant critic, Pete Wells, recently called tipping “irrational, outdated, ineffective, confusing, prone to abuse and sometimes discriminatory,” he was referring mainly to mid- to high-priced restaurants that are considering an end to the practice in favor of surcharges or service-included pricing.

In the diners and other more “value oriented” restaurants that employ most of the nation’s burgeoning ranks of waitresses (the vast majority of servers are female), tips are all that and more. They are part of a parallel economic universe in which employers are allowed to pay sub-minimum wages, with predictably devastating results. According to census data, servers are far more likely than other workers to live in poverty.

It is a national disgrace when hard work, in any industry, leaves workers in poverty. But falling living standards and economic hardship among tipped workers signal prolonged stagnation throughout the economy. That’s because employment growth in restaurants and bars has outpaced growth in nearly all other sectors in recent years, including health care, manufacturing, retail and financial services. If wages in food-service and other service jobs are not lifted, it is hard to see where adequate consumer demand will come from to generate and sustain a real recovery.

It is not tipping that most needs to end, however. What needs to change is the federal law that sets the minimum wage for tipped workers at $2.13 an hour, compared with an already measly hourly minimum of $7.25 for other workers. Under the law, as long as $2.13 an hour plus tips works out to at least $7.25 an hour, an employer is in compliance with national labor standards.. In effect, a tip for the waitress is a wage subsidy for her employer.

In recent decades, the situation has become increasingly unfair. The sub-minimum “tipped” wage was first instituted in 1966, when it was set at 50 percent of the minimum wage. At the time, that was an improvement. Until then, the restaurant industry had successfully lobbied Congress to deny tipped workers any minimum-wage protection, leaving them to live on tips alone. Over the next 30 years, the tipped wage sometimes rose as high as 60 percent of the minimum wage, but it never fell below 50 percent, reaching its current level of $2.13 an hour in 1991.

Then, in 1996, the Republican-led Congress agreed to raise the minimum wage, but on the condition that the tipped wage remain frozen. It has not budged since, and today it is 29 percent of the minimum wage.

Fortunately, seven states — Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon and Washington — have rejected the notion of a separate tipped wage and require instead that tipped workers be paid at least the full minimum wage, which is often higher on the state level than on the federal level.

California, for example, has just passed a bill to raise its state minimum wage to $10 an hour by 2016, and the governor is expected to sign it soon. Many other states have set their tipped wage higher than the federal level, but still allow some of a worker’s tips to be counted toward fulfilling the minimum-wage requirement. An additional 18 states continue to follow the federal law, with its tipped wage of $2.13 an hour.

Congressional Democrats have introduced a bill to raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour and to set the tipped wage at 70 percent of the minimum. That would be a step in the right direction, not only in raising the living standards of a growing segment of the labor force, but in re-establishing Washington’s leadership, long abandoned, in setting and promoting fair wages.
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