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On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 15:04:36 -0400, Nancy Young
> wrote: > On 9/12/2013 1:57 PM, sf wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Sep 2013 11:08:32 -0400, Nancy Young > > > wrote: > > > >> On 9/12/2013 10:16 AM, Ophelia wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> "Cheryl" > wrote > > >>>> I like the name Stalky Stalkerton. > >>> > >>> Hmm it does have a certain ring to it. > >> > >> Why, oh why? didn't I name my cat that. Describes her to a T. > >> > > Maybe the next one? > > Maybe if it's a stalking nut job like this one. Ninja cat. > I like that, especially if it's all black. ![]() -- Food is an important part of a balanced diet. |
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On 9/6/13 5:18 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>> >> >> That's precisely what's already done in the US. Any server willing >> >> to work hard can earn a pretty darn good living wage... the slackers >> >> tend not to last very long so the subject is moot. > > > > No it's not, Sheldon. Washington is the only state I know that requires minimum wage be paid to servers. Every other state makes an "allowance" to restaurants to pay $3 o4 $4 an hour, so servers MUST depend on tips. > Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips. She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips. One size does not fit all. |
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On 9/7/13 9:10 AM, George Leppla wrote:
> On land, I would prefer that servers be paid a living wage and not have > to rely on tips. I've had a couple of jobs where I depended on tips > (waiter, cab driver) and it gives you a whole new perspective on people. > > George L One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is? Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four? Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever) or what? WHAT *is* a "living wage"?? |
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![]() "Goomba" > wrote in message ... > On 9/6/13 5:18 PM, ImStillMags wrote: > >>> >>> >>> That's precisely what's already done in the US. Any server willing >>> >>> to work hard can earn a pretty darn good living wage... the slackers >>> >>> tend not to last very long so the subject is moot. >> >> >> >> No it's not, Sheldon. Washington is the only state I know that requires >> minimum wage be paid to servers. Every other state makes an "allowance" >> to restaurants to pay $3 o4 $4 an hour, so servers MUST depend on tips. >> > > Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish > dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips. > She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips. > One size does not fit all. Some people tip well. People that have been drinking can tip *really* well! I worked at a golf course and sold pre-packaged snacks and also beer and soda in cans. People often tipped me $1 per can or snack purchase. I did hand them the snacks from behind the counter but the drinks were self serve from a cooler. Crazy! But I suppose they took pity on me knowing that I was working for less than minimum wage. I did not take the job to make money. I took it out of boredom. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:08:02 -0400, Goomba >
wrote: > >Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish >dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips. >She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips. >One size does not fit all. Even a poor waitress should be able to make 8-ish an hour. When my daughter was in school many years ago (25?) she made about $10 at a local family place. In spite of regulations, much of it is tax free. And every day is payday. |
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On 2013-09-14 3:08 AM, Goomba wrote:
> > Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish > dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips. > She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips. > One size does not fit all. Well yeah.... if you use the $8 figure. What if it was a livable wage, one that you would get even though you worked in a tourist joint that catered to British and German tourists, or people from other cultures who are not used to the tipping culture. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:13:52 -0400, Goomba >
wrote: > >One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is? >Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four? >Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become >accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever) >or what? >WHAT *is* a "living wage"?? There will never be a clear definition. Start with a surviving wage that gets you the barest of living and nourishing food and work up. The US minimum wage does not even allow for that in most cases unless you are living at home and use public transportation. That $7.50 is livable for a high school student doing part time work after school. I figure if you can't pay $10 an hour today for unskilled labor, you probably should not even be in business. People that I know that rent are paying $750 to $1200 a month in this area. You can barely cover that at minimum wage so you need at least two incomes for the basics. You mention smokes. A guy at work is having a tough time paying his bills and can't make a credit card payment. He told me this hours after he told me he spent $60 for a round of golf the day before and he spends $400 a month on cigarettes. If we double his already good wage, he'd be back in debt in a month due to the lack of self control. |
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> > On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:08:02 -0400, Goomba > > wrote: > > > > >Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish > >dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips. > >She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips. > >One size does not fit all. > > Even a poor waitress should be able to make 8-ish an hour. When my > daughter was in school many years ago (25?) she made about $10 at a > local family place. In spite of regulations, much of it is tax free. > And every day is payday. It really all depends on what restaurant you work at. And also what shift you work. My daughter waitressed at a high end restaurant during lunch shifts and got very little in tips. Working at a high-end restaurant during the evening shifts, she often made more than I did each day. G. |
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On 2013-09-14 3:13 AM, Goomba wrote:
> One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is? > Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four? > Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become > accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever) > or what? > WHAT *is* a "living wage"?? Are you really seriously trying to quibble over what a "living wage" is after having posted something about a waitress opting for tips overs am hourly rate of $8? |
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On 2013-09-14 10:58 AM, Janet wrote:
.. > > Brits ARE used to tipping at home, but with a different perception > from the USA of circumstances when tipping is expected, and the amount > to tip. We expect to tip for table service in restaurants (between 10% > and 15 % of the bill) unless "service charge" has been automatically > added to the bill; but not at self- service food counters. It's normal > to tip taxi drivers too. Maybe they tip at home. Over here they are notorious for not tipping. I have some Dutch friends who cringe at the idea of being expected to tip at all. We talked about tipping practices with a (French) waiter in a restaurant in Bavaria. He said that he was well paid and did not expect tips, but if anyone wanted to give him their money he would gladly take it. He said that Germans leave small tips and that the French are really cheap. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:42:53 +0100, Janet > wrote:
> Other countries, evidently not the US, have an hourly-rate minimum >wage. In the UK, it's £6.31 sterling per hour for adults. Employers are >legally obliged to pay this rate regardless of the type of work or >number of hours worked. > https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-...e-minimum-wage > That translates to about $10 US > This is not to be confused with the UK Living Wage, which is £7.45 >per hour (higher in London). Many businesses and govt departments pay at >least Living Wage. > > http://www.citizensuk.org/campaigns/...wage-campaign/ > That is about $11.83 US or 5.6 Euro The US has a minimum wage of $7.25, but some states have higher minimums, maybe another dollar or so. If you make a large portion of your wage from tips, such as waitstaff, the minimum is lower. It can be as low as $2.13 http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm |
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In article >,
says... > > On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 15:42:53 +0100, Janet > wrote: > > > > > Other countries, evidently not the US, have an hourly-rate minimum > >wage. In the UK, it's £6.31 sterling per hour for adults. Employers are > >legally obliged to pay this rate regardless of the type of work or > >number of hours worked. > > https://www.gov.uk/national-minimum-...e-minimum-wage > > > > That translates to about $10 US > > > > This is not to be confused with the UK Living Wage, which is £7.45 > >per hour (higher in London). Many businesses and govt departments pay at > >least Living Wage. > > > > http://www.citizensuk.org/campaigns/...wage-campaign/ > > > > That is about $11.83 US or 5.6 Euro > > The US has a minimum wage of $7.25, but some states have higher > minimums, maybe another dollar or so. > > If you make a large portion of your wage from tips, such as waitstaff, > the minimum is lower. It can be as low as $2.13 > > http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm :-( So why call $7.25 a minimum wage if some people are paid just a third of that amount? How can customer tips ever be part of the wages paid by employer? Janet UK |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 11:34:32 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote: > He said that Germans leave small tips and that the French are really > cheap. Maybe they've changed. I heard Germans were the worst and nobody wanted to wait on them because they never leave a tip. We seem to have a lot of French tourists around here lately (in the non-tourist section of town), so I should ask a wait person sometime what they think and update my opinion on the subject. -- Food is an important part of a balanced diet. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:08:02 -0400, Goomba >
wrote: >On 9/6/13 5:18 PM, ImStillMags wrote: > >>> >>> >>> That's precisely what's already done in the US. Any server willing >>> >>> to work hard can earn a pretty darn good living wage... the slackers >>> >>> tend not to last very long so the subject is moot. >> >> >> >> No it's not, Sheldon. Washington is the only state I know that requires minimum wage be paid to servers. Every other state makes an "allowance" to restaurants to pay $3 o4 $4 an hour, so servers MUST depend on tips. >> > >Just tonight I asked a waitress if she'd prefer a set wage (aprox 8 ish >dollars per hour was mentioned) or tips. >She said hands down she prefers to work for the tips. >One size does not fit all. At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any server want $8/hr salary instead. Obviously it's only the cheapo ******* patrons who don't believe in tipping who think waitstaff should be salaried... little do the cheapo *******s realize that if the proprietor has to pay a salary the menu would reflect a 20% increase, the portions would reflect a 20% decrease, and quality would suffer immeasurably. I've eaten in countries that don't tip, service and food sucks... not to mention everything is unclean. |
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On 2013-09-14 4:15 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
.. > > At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an > hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any > server want $8/hr salary instead. Obviously it's only the cheapo > ******* patrons who don't believe in tipping who think waitstaff > should be salaried... little do the cheapo *******s realize that if > the proprietor has to pay a salary the menu would reflect a 20% > increase, the portions would reflect a 20% decrease, and quality would > suffer immeasurably. I've eaten in countries that don't tip, service > and food sucks... not to mention everything is unclean. > I would be curious to see the calculation that would lead an employer to have to increase menu prices by 20% in order to pay their staff the same money they are now making with tips that run around 15%. Since you claim to be tipping generously, would you not already be paying that amount anyway? You can pay $10 for a dish and then throw in an extra $1.50 for the 15% tip, which totals $11.50, or you can pay $11.50 for the meal and not be expected to leave a tip. It is still $11.50. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 03:13:52 -0400, Goomba >
wrote: >On 9/7/13 9:10 AM, George Leppla wrote: > >> On land, I would prefer that servers be paid a living wage and not have >> to rely on tips. I've had a couple of jobs where I depended on tips >> (waiter, cab driver) and it gives you a whole new perspective on people. >> >> George L > >One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is? >Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four? >Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become >accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever) >or what? >WHAT *is* a "living wage"?? I think that would depend on who you ask, everyone lives differently. A LOT of folks nowadays have a passel of kids by a slew of women and the only money they're concerned about is having enough for their next drug fix. The women don't care about anything other than how best to play public assistance and live on the dole, and how often they need to sell their ass to pay for their drug fix. Entry level jobs are meant for teens and students, but unfortunately too many nowadays (the lazy useless *******s-waste of protoplasm) rather than educate/train themselves to accquire more marketable skills make those minimum wage jobs a career. When TF (The ****) did Burger Flipper become a career??? The ONLY reason the economy sucks (and for no other reason whatsoever) is because the word "Apprentice" has become obsolete. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 16:38:35 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote: > > > > I would be curious to see the calculation that would lead an employer to > have to increase menu prices by 20% in order to pay their staff the same > money they are now making with tips that run around 15%. Since you claim > to be tipping generously, would you not already be paying that amount > anyway? You can pay $10 for a dish and then throw in an extra $1.50 for > the 15% tip, which totals $11.50, or you can pay $11.50 for the meal and > not be expected to leave a tip. It is still $11.50. It's a matter of perception. Increased menu prices often means more goes into the pocket of the employer/owner, not the servers. We in the US still value labor and have a healthy skepticism about how much an employer values his/her employees. As a general rule, management pays workers no more than absolutely necessary; so this is one way to make sure labor is well compensated. We prefer the direct approach, leaving out the middleman - which in this case is management. -- Food is an important part of a balanced diet. |
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On 9/14/2013 4:38 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> > I would be curious to see the calculation that would lead an employer to > have to increase menu prices by 20% in order to pay their staff the same > money they are now making with tips that run around 15%. Right, I'd guess 25% or more. The employer has to pa SS tax on those wages, it will affect his rate on Workman's Comp. insurance. will affect some other taxes too. Sales tax has to be paid by the customer making that $1 tip a cost of perhaps $1.07 on the total On a corporate level, it would reduce profits as a percentage. Income of gross sales shows a 15% increase but profit as a percentage went down. That does not sit well with the big chains and their bankers. It seems so easy but has many repurcussions. |
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In article >, gravesend10
@verizon.net says... > At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an > hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any > server want $8/hr salary instead. Why should it be "instead"? Pay them a living wage like a dignified human being. Any tips are a bonus. Janet UK |
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Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Goomba wrote: >> >>One problem is is that we have yet to agree on what a "living wage" is? >>Is that for one person or is that expected to support a family of four? >>Does that amount have to afford them certain items we have become >>accustomed to (enough to afford cell phones, cable tv, smokes, whatever) >>or what? >>WHAT *is* a "living wage"?? > >There will never be a clear definition. Of course there is, a living wage is dependant upon how one lives... for a teen/student it's pocket money while living under mommy and daddy's roof, in fact they should contribute something for room and board. And for older people they need to advance their marketable skills so that they can earn enough to live in whatever circumstances they desire... if the best they can do is opperate a dozer for the highway department they can still support a family and live decently. >Start with a surviving wage >that gets you the barest of living and nourishing food and work up. >The US minimum wage does not even allow for that in most cases unless >you are living at home and use public transportation. That $7.50 is >livable for a high school student doing part time work after school. > >I figure if you can't pay $10 an hour today for unskilled labor, you >probably should not even be in business. Nonsense... that's a hipocracy to what you started out saying, about "working up". Mommy and daddy can subsidize their no skill kids, NOT an employer... small companies can't pay more than minimum wage for unskilled workers... if you operated a neighborhood grocery store you couldn't pay more than minimum wage for some teen to stock your shelves and sweep your floors. When I was a teen in high school I worked for mom n'pops and was very happy to receive minimum wage, but I knew then that was not going to be my life's work. >People that I know that rent >are paying $750 to $1200 a month in this area. You can barely cover >that at minimum wage so you need at least two incomes for the basics. Puh-Leeze... no one with minimum wage can afford even $500/mo rent, eat, pay utilities, and drive a car to work that miserable job. Minimum wage is for while in training, not for a career. WTF do people think they should be able to support a family as a burger flipper... don't bother to answer or you'll be dumber than a burger flipper. |
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On 2013-09-14 5:10 PM, sf wrote:
> > It's a matter of perception. Increased menu prices often means more > goes into the pocket of the employer/owner, not the servers. We in > the US still value labor and have a healthy skepticism about how much > an employer values his/her employees. Americans value labour????? ??????????????? Yeah. Right. > As a general rule, management > pays workers no more than absolutely necessary; so this is one way to > make sure labor is well compensated. We prefer the direct approach, > leaving out the middleman - which in this case is management. Yet, there are only a few occupations where tips are expected. It's a safe bet that the clerk at the local convenience store makes more than minimum wage, but you don't tip him. Most people don't tip for counter service. You tip your hair dresser but you don't expect to tip your dry cleaner. People here have commented that they like to tip in cash so that the server can pocket it. They resent the concept of tip back, where servers have to give a percentage of their tips to the bartender, cooks, dishwashers etc. They are probably all making minimum and they all have to work together to make your meal happen. |
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On 2013-09-14 6:19 PM, Janet wrote:
> In article >, gravesend10 > @verizon.net says... >> At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an >> hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any >> server want $8/hr salary instead. > > Why should it be "instead"? Pay them a living wage like a dignified > human being. Any tips are a bonus. > > Or..... pay them a base rate and commission. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 18:33:08 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote: > On 2013-09-14 5:10 PM, sf wrote: > > > > > It's a matter of perception. Increased menu prices often means more > > goes into the pocket of the employer/owner, not the servers. We in > > the US still value labor and have a healthy skepticism about how much > > an employer values his/her employees. > > Americans value labour????? > ??????????????? > Yeah. Right. > Except in red states, of course - that excludes the entire South where (surprise, surprise) manufacturing plants are being set up. Guess what will come next? Unions. > > > > As a general rule, management > > pays workers no more than absolutely necessary; so this is one way to > > make sure labor is well compensated. We prefer the direct approach, > > leaving out the middleman - which in this case is management. > > Yet, there are only a few occupations where tips are expected. It's a > safe bet that the clerk at the local convenience store makes more than > minimum wage, but you don't tip him. Most people don't tip for counter > service. You tip your hair dresser but you don't expect to tip your dry > cleaner. People here have commented that they like to tip in cash so > that the server can pocket it. I agree with that. > They resent the concept of tip back, I don't agree with that. Bartenders get tipped and in turn give their bar backs part of it. You should already know that. > where servers have to give a percentage of their tips to the bartender, > cooks, dishwashers etc. They are probably all making minimum and they > all have to work together to make your meal happen. Absolutely! There have been times that the periphery staff, usually a busboy, has gone out of their way to be helpful. That person might be particularly helpful because the server is generous, but at those times - I make sure $5 goes directly into that person's hand and I don't deduct it from the server's tip either. Another time to time tip is to the guy who grills my meat over coals at a "Joe's" we go to. I like sitting right in front of the grill so I know how hot it is for him standing there an entire shift and he always does such a good job, no matter what kind of meat it is. -- Food is an important part of a balanced diet. |
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On Sat, 14 Sep 2013 23:19:44 +0100, Janet > wrote:
> In article >, gravesend10 > @verizon.net says... > > At an average family restaurant waitstaff can minimally pull in $25 an > > hour in tips, those who hustle their buns double that... why would any > > server want $8/hr salary instead. > > Why should it be "instead"? Pay them a living wage like a dignified > human being. Any tips are a bonus. > I wish that would be the case. Pay them a decent wage and let us tip at will. -- Food is an important part of a balanced diet. |
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On Friday, September 6, 2013 12:36:21 PM UTC-7, ImStillMags wrote:
Tips and Poverty By THE EDITORIAL BOARD NY Times Published: September 14, 2013 When The Times’s restaurant critic, Pete Wells, recently called tipping “irrational, outdated, ineffective, confusing, prone to abuse and sometimes discriminatory,” he was referring mainly to mid- to high-priced restaurants that are considering an end to the practice in favor of surcharges or service-included pricing. In the diners and other more “value oriented” restaurants that employ most of the nation’s burgeoning ranks of waitresses (the vast majority of servers are female), tips are all that and more. They are part of a parallel economic universe in which employers are allowed to pay sub-minimum wages, with predictably devastating results. According to census data, servers are far more likely than other workers to live in poverty. It is a national disgrace when hard work, in any industry, leaves workers in poverty. But falling living standards and economic hardship among tipped workers signal prolonged stagnation throughout the economy. That’s because employment growth in restaurants and bars has outpaced growth in nearly all other sectors in recent years, including health care, manufacturing, retail and financial services. If wages in food-service and other service jobs are not lifted, it is hard to see where adequate consumer demand will come from to generate and sustain a real recovery. It is not tipping that most needs to end, however. What needs to change is the federal law that sets the minimum wage for tipped workers at $2.13 an hour, compared with an already measly hourly minimum of $7.25 for other workers. Under the law, as long as $2.13 an hour plus tips works out to at least $7.25 an hour, an employer is in compliance with national labor standards.. In effect, a tip for the waitress is a wage subsidy for her employer. In recent decades, the situation has become increasingly unfair. The sub-minimum “tipped” wage was first instituted in 1966, when it was set at 50 percent of the minimum wage. At the time, that was an improvement. Until then, the restaurant industry had successfully lobbied Congress to deny tipped workers any minimum-wage protection, leaving them to live on tips alone. Over the next 30 years, the tipped wage sometimes rose as high as 60 percent of the minimum wage, but it never fell below 50 percent, reaching its current level of $2.13 an hour in 1991. Then, in 1996, the Republican-led Congress agreed to raise the minimum wage, but on the condition that the tipped wage remain frozen. It has not budged since, and today it is 29 percent of the minimum wage. Fortunately, seven states — Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon and Washington — have rejected the notion of a separate tipped wage and require instead that tipped workers be paid at least the full minimum wage, which is often higher on the state level than on the federal level. California, for example, has just passed a bill to raise its state minimum wage to $10 an hour by 2016, and the governor is expected to sign it soon. Many other states have set their tipped wage higher than the federal level, but still allow some of a worker’s tips to be counted toward fulfilling the minimum-wage requirement. An additional 18 states continue to follow the federal law, with its tipped wage of $2.13 an hour. Congressional Democrats have introduced a bill to raise the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour and to set the tipped wage at 70 percent of the minimum. That would be a step in the right direction, not only in raising the living standards of a growing segment of the labor force, but in re-establishing Washington’s leadership, long abandoned, in setting and promoting fair wages. |
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