On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 13:45:30 +0100, Janet > wrote:

> Next time I'm making a shortcrust I'll use vinegar and see what
> difference it makes.

I've never added vinegar either and always forget to experiment when
push comes to shove.

> Incorporating an egg is common here when making a French tart case for
> a sweet filling.

Yes, it is. I was also surprised by how much handling it can take and
still get outstanding results. I suppose there are limits, but I
haven't found them.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 13:32:06 +0100, "Ophelia"
> > wrote:
>
>> > Also for Yorkies, where I used to make them and leave the batter to
>> > rest a bit before using, it was the reverse here, make and use
>> > immediately.
>> >
>> > AP seems to be far lighter, finer flour.
>>
>> You worked out how to do it with what you can get)
>
> Interesting because I use the Julia Child method where you mix the
> batter and let it sit in the refrigerator for an hour. I suppose I
> could use it immediately and be fine with it too, but Yorkshire
> pudding isn't part of my upbringing so I'm not super critical of what
> I make. If they puff up (and they always to that beautifully),
> they're fine by me. There's no such thing as a tough Yorkshire
> pudding, IMO. I suspect, it's the difference between 00 flour or
> White Lily and All-Purpose. I was brought up with all things AP
> probably because I'm a Northerner (aka: Yankee), so I prefer the
> texture it produces in all the baked items that other posters (but
> especially those with ties to the South) get all picky about and want
> to use 00, White Lily or cake flour.

I use our regular 'plain' flour, which is soft flour compared to bread
flour. Like you I allow my batter to sit in the fridge before I use it.
The only use I would have for 00 is for pasta.
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:49:54 +0100, "Ophelia"
> wrote:

> The only use I would have for 00 is for pasta.

I found out recently that there's more than one 00. Yes! One from
hard wheat and one from soft. Hard is for pizza and soft is for
pasta. Who knew? Certainly not me. I have never seen type specified
on the bin where I buy 00 in bulk, so I called to ask what they sell.
It's hard wheat. I was okay using it for pizza dough after all.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

"sf" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 16:49:54 +0100, "Ophelia"
> > wrote:
>
>> The only use I would have for 00 is for pasta.
>
> I found out recently that there's more than one 00. Yes! One from
> hard wheat and one from soft. Hard is for pizza and soft is for
> pasta. Who knew? Certainly not me. I have never seen type specified
> on the bin where I buy 00 in bulk, so I called to ask what they sell.
> It's hard wheat. I was okay using it for pizza dough after all.

Then that will do the job)

--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

> wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 14:14:23 +0100, "Ophelia"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>> "Janet" > wrote in message
>>> t...
>>>> In article >,
>>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> Ofailure wrote
>>
>>Incidentally, Baraclough, if you are trying to use an old insult of
>>Sheldon's to use against me, at least try to get it right 'O'failure' is
>>the
>>insult he used in the old days *smile* You really need to learn how to use
>>apostrophes
>>
>>2/10 must try harder)
>>--
>
> Hee hee, nice one


--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Jean B." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>>
>>> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
>>>
>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>
>> So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free
>> flour and omit the vinegar.
>
> I've never used vinegar but our (non bread/strong) flour is very soft.
> Perhaps that is why in US one has to use vinegar. Do you only have all
> purpose flour that can be used for bread too?

No. Depending on where one shops, there are several kinds of flour.

--
--
Jean B.

Ophelia wrote:
>
> > wrote:
>> That's the kind of pie crust mix I'm used to seeing although I don't
>> make them. It must be a regional thang to add the vinegar.
>
> I'm thinking it is to overcome the strength of your all purpose flour.
>

You may be right. That practice may predate the widespread availability
of different flours.

--
Jean B.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> In >, Jean > wrote:
>> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>>
>>> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
>>>
>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>
>> So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free
>> flour and omit the vinegar.
>
> Well, you need some gluten to make the crust flaky. It's a balancing
> act between tender and flaky. If you've got good technique, AP flour,
> shortening*, water and a little salt will make a great pie crust.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
>
> *Bryan, I don't necessarily mean partially hydrogenated vegetable
> shortening, but any tasty fat that will make the crust short.
> I can get non-hydrogenated lard; it makes a damned fine crust.
> Normally I use butter, because that's what I've got.

Not Bryan, but I, too, have a source for unadulterated lard. Now it's
the flour that would be the problem.

Oh! I have a question. If one wants to use some kind of flour that
lacks gluten, can one add some gluten to that flour to make it behave
like wheat flour? If so, I don't suppose you or anyone else here would
have any clue as to an approximate amount per cup of flour.

--
--
Jean B.

wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 13:45:30 +0100, > wrote:
>
>> In >,
>> says...
>>
>> Ofailure wrote
>>
>>>>> Never in all my years of baking have I ever seen that or even heard of it.
>>
>> Obviously not a reader of cookbooks or googler of online US
>> recipes:-)
>>>>
>>> That's the kind of pie crust mix I'm used to seeing although I don't make them. It must be a regional thang to add the vinegar.
>>
>> Next time I'm making a shortcrust I'll use vinegar and see what
>> difference it makes.
>> Incorporating an egg is common here when making a French tart case for
>> a sweet filling.
>>
>> Janet UK
>
> Well don't use US recipes involving flour, won't work.

Why do you say that? I have made crusts involving egg. It works
perfectly well.

--
--
Jean B.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 09:08:34 +0100, "Ophelia"
> wrote:
>
>
> "Jean B." > wrote in message
> ...
> > Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >>
> >> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
> >>
> >> Cindy Hamilton
> >
> > So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free flour
> > and omit the vinegar.
>
> I've never used vinegar but our (non bread/strong) flour is very soft.
> Perhaps that is why in US one has to use vinegar. Do you only have all
> purpose flour that can be used for bread too?
> --

We have one all-purpose flour, several brands - but it's still all
purpose. We also have bread flour, cake flour and pastry flour.
Flour comes bleached, unbleached and whole wheat... then we have all
the other types of flour... corn (not cornstarch), semolina, almond,
soy and many more.

--
Food is an important part of a balanced diet.

"Jean B." > wrote in message
...
> Ophelia wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Jean B." > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>
>>> So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free
>>> flour and omit the vinegar.
>>
>> I've never used vinegar but our (non bread/strong) flour is very soft.
>> Perhaps that is why in US one has to use vinegar. Do you only have all
>> purpose flour that can be used for bread too?
>
> No. Depending on where one shops, there are several kinds of flour.

ok
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Jean B." > wrote in message
...
> Ophelia wrote:
>>
>> > wrote:
>>> That's the kind of pie crust mix I'm used to seeing although I don't
>>> make them. It must be a regional thang to add the vinegar.
>>
>> I'm thinking it is to overcome the strength of your all purpose flour.
>>
>
> You may be right. That practice may predate the widespread availability
> of different flours.

I think you are probably right. I was surprised when you told me about the
different flours you can buy, I am obviously out of date but I understood
'all purpose' was 'it', so the vinegar was probably necessary--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Jean B." > wrote in message
...
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> In >, Jean >
>> wrote:
>>> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
>>>>
>>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>
>>> So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free
>>> flour and omit the vinegar.
>>
>> Well, you need some gluten to make the crust flaky. It's a balancing
>> act between tender and flaky. If you've got good technique, AP flour,
>> shortening*, water and a little salt will make a great pie crust.
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>>
>>
>> *Bryan, I don't necessarily mean partially hydrogenated vegetable
>> shortening, but any tasty fat that will make the crust short.
>> I can get non-hydrogenated lard; it makes a damned fine crust.
>> Normally I use butter, because that's what I've got.
>
> Not Bryan, but I, too, have a source for unadulterated lard. Now it's the
> flour that would be the problem.
>
> Oh! I have a question. If one wants to use some kind of flour that lacks
> gluten, can one add some gluten to that flour to make it behave like wheat
> flour? If so, I don't suppose you or anyone else here would have any clue
> as to an approximate amount per cup of flour.

Yes you can buy gluten powder. It might indicate on the pack how much to
add?
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 09:08:34 +0100, "Ophelia"
> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Jean B." > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
>> >>
>> >> Cindy Hamilton
>> >
>> > So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free
>> > flour
>> > and omit the vinegar.
>>
>> I've never used vinegar but our (non bread/strong) flour is very soft.
>> Perhaps that is why in US one has to use vinegar. Do you only have all
>> purpose flour that can be used for bread too?
>> --
>
> We have one all-purpose flour, several brands - but it's still all
> purpose. We also have bread flour, cake flour and pastry flour.
> Flour comes bleached, unbleached and whole wheat... then we have all
> the other types of flour... corn (not cornstarch), semolina, almond,
> soy and many more.

So I am learning)
--
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

In article >, says...
>
> wrote:
> > On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 13:45:30 +0100, > wrote:
> >
> >> In >,
> >> says...
> >>
> >> Ofailure wrote
> >>
> >>>>> Never in all my years of baking have I ever seen that or even heard of it.
> >>
> >> Obviously not a reader of cookbooks or googler of online US
> >> recipes:-)
> >>>>
> >>> That's the kind of pie crust mix I'm used to seeing although I don't make them. It must be a regional thang to add the vinegar.
> >>
> >> Next time I'm making a shortcrust I'll use vinegar and see what
> >> difference it makes.
> >> Incorporating an egg is common here when making a French tart case for
> >> a sweet filling.
> >>
> >> Janet UK
> >
> > Well don't use US recipes involving flour, won't work.

? I've been making great pastry for half a century, with UK flour,
with and without eggs. The only difference is I've never included any
vinegar.

Next time I'm making some pastry for a pie I'll put some vinegar in
the water to see what difference it makes, if any.

> Why do you say that? I have made crusts involving egg. It works
> perfectly well.

Ditto.

Janet

In article >,
sf > wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 09:08:34 +0100, "Ophelia"
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Jean B." > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
>> >>
>> >> Cindy Hamilton
>> >
>> > So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free flour
>> > and omit the vinegar.
>>
>> I've never used vinegar but our (non bread/strong) flour is very soft.
>> Perhaps that is why in US one has to use vinegar. Do you only have all
>> purpose flour that can be used for bread too?
>> --
>
>We have one all-purpose flour, several brands - but it's still all
>purpose.

All-purpose flours are not all created equal.

White Lily, favored in the South, is relatively low in protein (8%).
Gold Medal and Pillsbury are middle-of-the-road in protein (10%).
King Arthur all-purpose is relatively high in protein (11.7%).

The more protein, the more gluten formation.

I use King Arthur for pizza crust, and Gold Medal for everything else. I
probably could use Gold Medal for everything, but KA makes me feel
"pretty". Or something. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

Cindy Hamilton


>We also have bread flour, cake flour and pastry flour.
>Flour comes bleached, unbleached and whole wheat... then we have all
>the other types of flour... corn (not cornstarch), semolina, almond,
>soy and many more.
>
>--
>Food is an important part of a balanced diet.


--

In article >, Jean B. > wrote:
>
>Oh! I have a question. If one wants to use some kind of flour that
>lacks gluten, can one add some gluten to that flour to make it behave
>like wheat flour? If so, I don't suppose you or anyone else here would
>have any clue as to an approximate amount per cup of flour.

I'm pretty sure that King Arthur sells gluten as a bread dough
enhancer. The instructions are probably on the package.
I confess I'm a little mystified why one would want to use
non-wheat flour and then add gluten. (Low-carbing?)

Cindy Hamilton
--

Janet wrote:
>
> Next time I'm making some pastry for a pie I'll put some vinegar in
> the water to see what difference it makes, if any.

Nothing better than vinegar flavored apple pie. yum@

Then someone else said:
> > I have made crusts involving egg. It works perfectly well.

What is the difference between crusts with or without egg? I've never
heard of adding an egg to a pie crust.

G.

In article >, says...
>
> Janet wrote:
> >
> > Next time I'm making some pastry for a pie I'll put some vinegar in
> > the water to see what difference it makes, if any.
>
> Nothing better than vinegar flavored apple pie. yum@

It's only going to be a spoonful of vinegar in the pastry water; so
shouldn't make the pie taste of vinegar any more than meringue does.
>
> Then someone else said:
> > > I have made crusts involving egg. It works perfectly well.
>
> What is the difference between crusts with or without egg?

With egg is a richer sweeter firmer (when cooked) pastry; but it's
also a bit trickier to handle the raw rolled-out pastry as it tears more
easily. I only bother if I'm making lemon meringue pie or custard tart
and want the base to stay crisp.

Janet UK.

Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Jean B." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ophelia wrote:
>>>
>>> > wrote:
>>>> That's the kind of pie crust mix I'm used to seeing although I don't
>>>> make them. It must be a regional thang to add the vinegar.
>>>
>>> I'm thinking it is to overcome the strength of your all purpose flour.
>>>
>>
>> You may be right. That practice may predate the widespread
>> availability of different flours.
>
> I think you are probably right. I was surprised when you told me about
> the different flours you can buy, I am obviously out of date but I
> understood 'all purpose' was 'it', so the vinegar was probably
> necessary--

Coincidentally, I heard a little blurb on the radio, which mentioned the
use of vodka or vinegar in this context. I was kind-of happy to hear
that, because I had heard of the use of vodka in pie crust before, and
that would not make the crust the least bit sour.

--
--
Jean B.

Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Jean B." > wrote in message
> ...
>> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>> In >, Jean >
>>> wrote:
>>>> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Inhibits gluten formation. Make the pie crust more tender.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>>
>>>> So, presumably one could use pastry flour or some other gluten-free
>>>> flour and omit the vinegar.
>>>
>>> Well, you need some gluten to make the crust flaky. It's a balancing
>>> act between tender and flaky. If you've got good technique, AP flour,
>>> shortening*, water and a little salt will make a great pie crust.
>>>
>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>
>>>
>>> *Bryan, I don't necessarily mean partially hydrogenated vegetable
>>> shortening, but any tasty fat that will make the crust short.
>>> I can get non-hydrogenated lard; it makes a damned fine crust.
>>> Normally I use butter, because that's what I've got.
>>
>> Not Bryan, but I, too, have a source for unadulterated lard. Now it's
>> the flour that would be the problem.
>>
>> Oh! I have a question. If one wants to use some kind of flour that
>> lacks gluten, can one add some gluten to that flour to make it behave
>> like wheat flour? If so, I don't suppose you or anyone else here would
>> have any clue as to an approximate amount per cup of flour.
>
> Yes you can buy gluten powder. It might indicate on the pack how much to
> add?

Hmmm. I do have wheat gluten....

--
--
Jean B.

wrote:
> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:48:38 -0400, "Jean > wrote:
>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 13:45:30 +0100, > wrote:
>>>
>>>> In >,
>>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> Ofailure wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>> Never in all my years of baking have I ever seen that or even heard of it.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously not a reader of cookbooks or googler of online US
>>>> recipes:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's the kind of pie crust mix I'm used to seeing although I don't make them. It must be a regional thang to add the vinegar.
>>>>
>>>> Next time I'm making a shortcrust I'll use vinegar and see what
>>>> difference it makes.
>>>> Incorporating an egg is common here when making a French tart case for
>>>> a sweet filling.
>>>>
>>>> Janet UK
>>>
>>> Well don't use US recipes involving flour, won't work.
>>
>> Why do you say that? I have made crusts involving egg. It works
>> perfectly well.
>>
>> --
> NA flour is not like the flour in the UK - when we moved here all
> flour recipes had to go and I adopted local ones. You should have
> seen the first Yorkies I made, they were inedible

Ah, for some reason (probably reading too quickly, per usual) I thought
the comment was that egg wouldn't work.

--
--
Jean B.

Janet wrote:
> In >, says...
>>
>> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 18 Sep 2013 13:45:30 +0100, > wrote:
>>>
>>>> In >,
>>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> Ofailure wrote
>>>>
>>>>>>> Never in all my years of baking have I ever seen that or even heard of it.
>>>>
>>>> Obviously not a reader of cookbooks or googler of online US
>>>> recipes:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>> That's the kind of pie crust mix I'm used to seeing although I don't make them. It must be a regional thang to add the vinegar.
>>>>
>>>> Next time I'm making a shortcrust I'll use vinegar and see what
>>>> difference it makes.
>>>> Incorporating an egg is common here when making a French tart case for
>>>> a sweet filling.
>>>>
>>>> Janet UK
>>>
>>> Well don't use US recipes involving flour, won't work.
>
> ? I've been making great pastry for half a century, with UK flour,
> with and without eggs. The only difference is I've never included any
> vinegar.
>
> Next time I'm making some pastry for a pie I'll put some vinegar in
> the water to see what difference it makes, if any.
>
>> Why do you say that? I have made crusts involving egg. It works
>> perfectly well.
>
> Ditto.
>
> Janet

In the interim, I heard that one could use vinegar or vodka. I would be
more inclined to use vodka. I had heard about using vodka in pie crusts
before but didn't realize it was because of the gluten.
--
Jean B.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> I'm pretty sure that King Arthur sells gluten as a bread dough
> enhancer. The instructions are probably on the package.
> I confess I'm a little mystified why one would want to use
> non-wheat flour and then add gluten. (Low-carbing?)
>
> Cindy Hamilton

Yes, low carbing. So the flours I would be using would be gluten-free.
I do not have a problem with gluten consumption, so it seems to me
that I could just add some amount of gluten to nut (etc.) flours.

I think the brand I have is Bob's Red Mill.

--
Jean B.