It's from 1985. Just stumbled on it. Not quite about cooking, but I thought it was pretty interesting when it comes to certain modern confusions.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...t-paying-steak

Dear Miss Manners--I took my friend Sam to a fairly expensive place for dinner, making it clear that I was paying. Sam was my house guest, and we often treat each other to meals.

After ordering the various courses for dinner, I asked Sam if he would like some wine. Sam asked for the wine list. I added that I would drink about half a glass with my meal. Sam ordered the wine, without discussing his choice with me, and drank about two glasses. I drank my half a glass. After the meal, the waiter suggested that we take the remaining wine home (this is apparently done at this restaurant).

Without asking me, Sam presented the waiter with the wine. I felt that since I was paying, I should have had the option of giving away the wine. I didn`t even know the price of it, since Sam had selected it by himself.


Gentle Reader--Like many other people these days, you and Sam are using a hybrid system of manners: the conventional ones, which allot roles by gender, and newer ones that do not recognize distinctions of gender.

Miss Manners does not require that you choose one or the other. On the contrary, she admires the practice of changing the matters that have practical consequences--who pays the bill--while maintaining such graceful habits as having the man do the ordering. She merely asks you to recognize that such adjustments are idiosyncratic now, and requests that you exercise some tolerance when they do not go as you expected.

Although the bill-payer can assume the role of host, a lady can nevertheless allow the gentleman to perform this task. What is rude under any system is to suggest that the guest should constantly keep in mind his indebtedness..

It was that sort of vulgar thinking, which had non-gentlemen spelling out the relationship they expected between food bills and affection, that led ladies to assume bill-paying themselves.

Whoever orders the wine should, out of courtesy, ask if the other has a preference. But your announcement that you would hardly touch it does somewhat excuse Sam`s not doing this. Miss Manners also understands his not demanding, ``How much can I spend on it?`` and hopes the same delicacy prevented him from ordering an outrageously priced bottle.

But once having turned over to him responsibility for the wine, you are being petty to expect to re-establish ownership over it. When it`s his turn to pay, and you perhaps want to take your leftover steak home to your dog, will you stop to consider that the uneaten steak belongs to Sam?

(end)


Lenona.

On 2/5/2014 1:08 PM, wrote:
> It's from 1985. Just stumbled on it. Not quite about cooking, but I thought it was pretty interesting when it comes to certain modern confusions.
>
> http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...t-paying-steak
>
> Dear Miss Manners--I took my friend Sam to a fairly expensive place for dinner, making it clear that I was paying.

(snippage)

That was fun, thanks! My take: she said she was paying. She didn't add
the caveat, "but not a whole bottle of wine".

She's the one who asked if he wanted some wine. Broadly hinting (by her
account) she would only drink *1/2 glass* of wine... guess what? Some
people are clueless. They don't pick up on "hints". Or, her good buddy
could have been mooching.

Thankfully, by 1985 I was assertive enough to speak my mind. After
springing for an expensive meal I'd have politely offered to buy us each
a *glass* of wine. Thus eliminating the idea of a bottle of wine in (or
on!) his head.

BTW, a bottle of wine doesn't hold all that much. She claims she had a
half a glass. He drank two. Even with small wine glasses, there
wouldn't have been much left to "present" to the waiter. Certainly not
enough to gripe about, unless she really did want a full glass.

Did she ever say what that bottle of wine cost?

Jill

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:35:39 -0500, jmcquown >
wrote:

> Did she ever say what that bottle of wine cost?

I wondered about that too.

If it was pricey, I'd certainly want to take however little was left
home, unless it was less than a glass. And as a "guest", I certainly
wouldn't feel comfortable giving it away w/o first asking my dining
partner if she wanted to take it home for later.


--

Good Food.
Good Friends.
Good Memories.

On 2014-02-05 2:38 PM, sf wrote:
> On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:35:39 -0500, jmcquown >
> wrote:
>
>> Did she ever say what that bottle of wine cost?
>
> I wondered about that too.
>
> If it was pricey, I'd certainly want to take however little was left
> home, unless it was less than a glass. And as a "guest", I certainly
> wouldn't feel comfortable giving it away w/o first asking my dining
> partner if she wanted to take it home for later.
>


Pricey or not, it takes a lot of nerve for a dinner guest to give away
something that his host paid for. Even if splitting the bill he should
have consulted the host. He really had no business doing that.
However.... if the host knew in advance that he was only going to drink
one glass of wine he obviously isn't much of a wine drinker so I have to
wonder why he would have taken it home for himself and why he worried
about it.

On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 15:03:04 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> Pricey or not, it takes a lot of nerve for a dinner guest to give away
> something that his host paid for. Even if splitting the bill he should
> have consulted the host. He really had no business doing that.
> However.... if the host knew in advance that he was only going to drink
> one glass of wine he obviously isn't much of a wine drinker so I have to
> wonder why he would have taken it home for himself and why he worried
> about it.

It probably was probably a "split", not a fifth and they were probably
"intimate". <if you know what I mean> It still doesn't excuse his
bad behavior because my husband (for one) would always check with me
to see if I wanted to bring it home or leave it there if a significant
amount of wine was left in the bottle.


--

Good Food.
Good Friends.
Good Memories.

On 2014-02-05 1:35 PM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 2/5/2014 1:08 PM, wrote:
>> It's from 1985. Just stumbled on it. Not quite about cooking, but I
>> thought it was pretty interesting when it comes to certain modern
>> confusions.
>>
>> http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1...t-paying-steak
>>
>>
>> Dear Miss Manners--I took my friend Sam to a fairly expensive place
>> for dinner, making it clear that I was paying.
>
> (snippage)
>
> That was fun, thanks! My take: she said she was paying. She didn't add
> the caveat, "but not a whole bottle of wine".


She?
>
> She's the one who asked if he wanted some wine. Broadly hinting (by her
> account) she would only drink *1/2 glass* of wine... guess what? Some
> people are clueless. They don't pick up on "hints". Or, her good buddy
> could have been mooching.

>
> Thankfully, by 1985 I was assertive enough to speak my mind. After
> springing for an expensive meal I'd have politely offered to buy us each
> a *glass* of wine. Thus eliminating the idea of a bottle of wine in (or
> on!) his head.

That would have been the smart thing to do.
>
> BTW, a bottle of wine doesn't hold all that much. She claims she had a
> half a glass. He drank two. Even with small wine glasses, there
> wouldn't have been much left to "present" to the waiter. Certainly not
> enough to gripe about, unless she really did want a full glass.

There should be 5-6 glasses of wine in a bottle, so there should have
been half a bottle.

> Did she ever say what that bottle of wine cost?


I am trying to figure the reason for the complaint. He <?> said that
since he was paying he should have had the option of giving away the
wine. It looks as if the wine was going to the waiter one way or
another and he is only upset that the other one got the credit for the
tip, such as it was. It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George
was so upset that his girlfriend got the credit for a salad for Elanine
that he had paid for.


I have to wonder about the ethics of a steward accepting wine from a
customer. After watching some of those horrible restaurant shows I have
to wonder if they might have been selling that leftover wine to other
customers and pocketing the money, something which would have been
easier to get away with in 1985 than it would with the restaurant
software these days

On 2/5/2014 3:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> I am trying to figure the reason for the complaint. He <?> said that
> since he was paying he should have had the option of giving away the
> wine. It looks as if the wine was going to the waiter one way or
> another and he is only upset that the other one got the credit for the
> tip, such as it was. It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George
> was so upset that his girlfriend got the credit for a salad for Elanine
> that he had paid for.

Did we read the same article? The article didn't say HE paid for
anything. SHE invited him out to dinner. Said she was paying. She
asked if he'd like some wine. Without asking her, he ordered a bottle
of it. Sounds like it went onto her bill, not his.

Still, she should have spoken up if she didn't mean sure, order a bottle
of wine! Not all women in 1985 would have been taken for that ride.
The guy was described as her friend and "houseguest". Can you say
non-rent-paying, gonna stay here as long as I can for free moocher? LOLOL

Jill

If she did not really want wine she should just have ordered a glass of
house wine. Why she felt they needed a full bottle is odd since she had no
plans to actually share it. Since it was basically part of his meal he
should be able to keep it just as if he asked for a box for the leftovers.
The wine was a leftover part of his meal she just had a few sips. So
basically she gifted him the wine along with the meal. I mean what other
option did the guy have other than to leave it and what's the benefit of
that? She can always enjoy another half glass since they're both going back
to the same home.

I am going to get into trouble here I know it but I'll just say this is
typical of the modern male/female relationships where it is a constant
struggle to determine who is on top and who wields the power. Not letting
anything slide, even a quarter bottle of wine, is why relationships and
marriages fail. This is a perfect example of making a stink out of
absolutely nothing.



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"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
> If she did not really want wine she should just have ordered a glass of
> house wine. Why she felt they needed a full bottle is odd since she had
> no plans to actually share it. Since it was basically part of his meal he
> should be able to keep it just as if he asked for a box for the leftovers.
> The wine was a leftover part of his meal she just had a few sips. So
> basically she gifted him the wine along with the meal. I mean what other
> option did the guy have other than to leave it and what's the benefit of
> that? She can always enjoy another half glass since they're both going
> back to the same home.
>
> I am going to get into trouble here I know it but I'll just say this is
> typical of the modern male/female relationships where it is a constant
> struggle to determine who is on top and who wields the power. Not letting
> anything slide, even a quarter bottle of wine, is why relationships and
> marriages fail. This is a perfect example of making a stink out of
> absolutely nothing.


On re-read I see the guy elected not to take the wine home. That's what
ticked her off. But still, she also could have said "excuse me but I think
I'd like to take it with me." I doubt her guest would have cared. You can
be assertive and not pushy or rude.



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"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2014-02-05 2:38 PM, sf wrote:
>> On Wed, 05 Feb 2014 13:35:39 -0500, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Did she ever say what that bottle of wine cost?
>>
>> I wondered about that too.
>>
>> If it was pricey, I'd certainly want to take however little was left
>> home, unless it was less than a glass. And as a "guest", I certainly
>> wouldn't feel comfortable giving it away w/o first asking my dining
>> partner if she wanted to take it home for later.
>>
>
>
> Pricey or not, it takes a lot of nerve for a dinner guest to give away
> something that his host paid for. Even if splitting the bill he should
> have consulted the host. He really had no business doing that.
> However.... if the host knew in advance that he was only going to drink
> one glass of wine he obviously isn't much of a wine drinker so I have to
> wonder why he would have taken it home for himself and why he worried
> about it.
>

Two words: table wine.

What he should have done was just order by the glass. It is wasteful if
nothing else to order a bottle when you know you won't finish it.



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On 2/5/2014 3:58 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
> If she did not really want wine she should just have ordered a glass of
> house wine. Why she felt they needed a full bottle is odd since she had no
> plans to actually share it.

Assuming that was an option. In 1985 I don't recall many places
offering wine by glass.



Since it was basically part of his meal he
> should be able to keep it just as if he asked for a box for the leftovers.
> The wine was a leftover part of his meal she just had a few sips. So
> basically she gifted him the wine along with the meal. I mean what other
> option did the guy have other than to leave it and what's the benefit of
> that? She can always enjoy another half glass since they're both going back
> to the same home.

I agree with that.

>
> I am going to get into trouble here I know it but I'll just say this is
> typical of the modern male/female relationships where it is a constant
> struggle to determine who is on top and who wields the power. Not letting
> anything slide, even a quarter bottle of wine, is why relationships and
> marriages fail. This is a perfect example of making a stink out of
> absolutely nothing.

Yep.

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/5/2014 3:58 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> If she did not really want wine she should just have ordered a glass of
>> house wine. Why she felt they needed a full bottle is odd since she had
>> no
>> plans to actually share it.
>
> Assuming that was an option. In 1985 I don't recall many places offering
> wine by glass.

Really? I was a bartender in 84 and we served wine by the glass. We had
two house wines: red and white. We had gallon jugs of Carlo Rossi to draw
from. I ate in a lot of restaurants in the 80s and by the glass was always
how I rolled. Or by the carafe. For an average meal house wine for me is
just fine. I hate paying 30 bucks for wine I can buy for 10 in a store.



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Seems like the two ppl skated around the issues of who was paying and for what. Why didn't the hostess speak up?

I've been in situations tho where another couple kept ordering bottles of wine like it was water, and I KNEW we were splitting the bill. The other guy could really drink and even tipped his chair over to prove it. Slightly embarrassing and expensive evening out, but at least he didn't break his back.

On 2014-02-05, > wrote:

> But once having turned over to him responsibility for the wine, you
> are being petty to expect to re-establish ownership over it.

Damned petty! She sent so many contrary signals, I'm amazed she
didn't explode. Either stake yer claim of STFU. And then she asks if
HE was rude!? He shoulda hit her over the head with her own bottle.

If it'd been me, Ida ordered my guest 1 glass and myself a bottle. If G
wants a bottle, you know where the wine list is!

Anyway, I think MM makes this crap up.

nb

On 2/5/2014 6:06 PM, notbob wrote:
> On 2014-02-05, > wrote:
>
>> But once having turned over to him responsibility for the wine, you
>> are being petty to expect to re-establish ownership over it.
>
> Damned petty! She sent so many contrary signals, I'm amazed she
> didn't explode. Either stake yer claim of STFU. And then she asks if
> HE was rude!? He shoulda hit her over the head with her own bottle.
>
> If it'd been me, Ida ordered my guest 1 glass and myself a bottle. If G
> wants a bottle, you know where the wine list is!
>
> Anyway, I think MM makes this crap up.
>
> nb
>
Whether circa 1985 or today, you're most likely correct. Same with any
"advice" columns. You can throw fake letters to Penthouse into that
category, too.

Jill

On 2014-02-05 15:55, jmcquown wrote:
> On 2/5/2014 3:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> I am trying to figure the reason for the complaint. He <?> said that
>> since he was paying he should have had the option of giving away the
>> wine. It looks as if the wine was going to the waiter one way or
>> another and he is only upset that the other one got the credit for the
>> tip, such as it was. It reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where George
>> was so upset that his girlfriend got the credit for a salad for Elanine
>> that he had paid for.
>
> Did we read the same article? The article didn't say HE paid for
> anything. SHE invited him out to dinner. Said she was paying. She
> asked if he'd like some wine. Without asking her, he ordered a bottle
> of it. Sounds like it went onto her bill, not his.

I don't know. I read the post and followed the link. Who is the she? It
says the other person was a house guest and that they often take each
other out for dinner, but there is not much indication that the writer
is a woman.

>
> Still, she should have spoken up if she didn't mean sure, order a bottle
> of wine! Not all women in 1985 would have been taken for that ride. The
> guy was described as her friend and "houseguest". Can you say
> non-rent-paying, gonna stay here as long as I can for free moocher? LOLOL
>
>
House guest.... not boy friend, gentleman friend of lover. The guest is
identified as male.

On 2014-02-05 16:01, Paul M. Cook wrote:

>
> On re-read I see the guy elected not to take the wine home. That's what
> ticked her off. But still, she also could have said "excuse me but I think
> I'd like to take it with me." I doubt her guest would have cared. You can
> be assertive and not pushy or rude.
>


He or she had the opportunity to speak up when the waiter suggested that
they take the wine home. Notice that he or she said that since he or she
was paying he or she should have had the option of giving the wine away.
It would seem that the whine is not so much about the wine being given
to the waiter, only about who got the credit.

On 2/5/2014 6:06 PM, notbob wrote:

>
> Anyway, I think MM makes this crap up.
>
Nah, just look at the crowd here and multiply the quirks by tens of
millions. Lots of kooks out there.

On 2014-02-05 16:27, Paul M. Cook wrote:

>> Assuming that was an option. In 1985 I don't recall many places offering
>> wine by glass.
>
> Really? I was a bartender in 84 and we served wine by the glass. We had
> two house wines: red and white. We had gallon jugs of Carlo Rossi to draw
> from.

I guess it depends on the location. Liquor and service practices vary
from one place to another. Around here you could get wine by the glass
long before that.


> I ate in a lot of restaurants in the 80s and by the glass was always
> how I rolled. Or by the carafe. For an average meal house wine for me is
> just fine. I hate paying 30 bucks for wine I can buy for 10 in a store.

I tend to stick to the less expensive wines when I go out. I can
understand a big markup on soft drinks because they are so cheap that
you need a big percentage markup to pay for the service and space. I
don't see any reason to pay $20-30 markup on a bottle of wine.
Since everyone is clamping down on drinking and driving I these days I
just order a glass of wine.


>
>
> ---
> This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
> http://www.avast.com
>

On 2/5/2014 7:57 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

> I don't know. I read the post and followed the link. Who is the she? It
> says the other person was a house guest and that they often take each
> other out for dinner, but there is not much indication that the writer
> is a woman.

I was wondering the same thing. I thought at first it was a man.
Don't really know.

I think it's weird to go giving wine to the waiter. Or anyone,
for that matter. I'd have taken it back to the house so we could
finish it off tomorrow or whatever.

nancy

On 2014-02-05 16:58, Kalmia wrote:
>
> Seems like the two ppl skated around the issues of who was paying and
> for what. Why didn't the hostess speak up?
>
> I've been in situations tho where another couple kept ordering
> bottles of wine like it was water, and I KNEW we were splitting the
> bill. The other guy could really drink and even tipped his chair
> over to prove it. Slightly embarrassing and expensive evening out,
> but at least he didn't break his back.
>



I have hear of worse. I know some people who went to an all inclusive
hotel in the Caribbean. Friends of the, a lawyer couple stayed in a
nicer hotel a few blocks away. The couple I know do not drink. The
lawyers drink expensive wines. Lawyers wanted to split the bill... so
the non drinkers ended up splitting the cost of multiple bottles if
expensive wine they did not even drink. What is funny is that this
happened several times that week.

On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 8:15:56 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2014-02-05 16:58, Kalmia wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Seems like the two ppl skated around the issues of who was paying and
>
> > for what. Why didn't the hostess speak up?
>
> >
>
> > I've been in situations tho where another couple kept ordering
>
> > bottles of wine like it was water, and I KNEW we were splitting the
>
> > bill. The other guy could really drink and even tipped his chair
>
> > over to prove it. Slightly embarrassing and expensive evening out,
>
> > but at least he didn't break his back.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have hear of worse. I know some people who went to an all inclusive
>
> hotel in the Caribbean. Friends of the, a lawyer couple stayed in a
>
> nicer hotel a few blocks away. The couple I know do not drink. The
>
> lawyers drink expensive wines. Lawyers wanted to split the bill... so
>
> the non drinkers ended up splitting the cost of multiple bottles if
>
> expensive wine they did not even drink. What is funny is that this
>
> happened several times that week.

Aw, then they ( the teetotalers) were saps to keep falling into this trap. If you put yourself up for abuse, someone will definitely oblige.
Dopes.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2014-02-05 16:01, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
>>
>> On re-read I see the guy elected not to take the wine home. That's what
>> ticked her off. But still, she also could have said "excuse me but I
>> think
>> I'd like to take it with me." I doubt her guest would have cared. You
>> can
>> be assertive and not pushy or rude.
>>
>
>
> He or she had the opportunity to speak up when the waiter suggested that
> they take the wine home. Notice that he or she said that since he or she
> was paying he or she should have had the option of giving the wine away.
> It would seem that the whine is not so much about the wine being given to
> the waiter, only about who got the credit.

He or she doesn't know how it works in the kitchen. When I was a bartender,
3 months of hell, we never allowed wine off premises. It was illegal. So
bottle remains were kept in the back and at the end of the night we just
divided up the spoils. Sometimes you'd go home with a nice bottle of wine
with maybe one glass gone from it. We also did this for some of the meals.
We'd get whole steaks back with one bite gone or a whole oso buco not even
so much as touched. The waste was sinful. So we ate and drank well even
though the work sucked and we saved some wasteful souls in the process.

>> I have hear of worse. I know some people who went to an all
>> inclusive
>>
>> hotel in the Caribbean. Friends of the, a lawyer couple stayed in
>> a
>>
>> nicer hotel a few blocks away. The couple I know do not drink. The
>>
>> lawyers drink expensive wines. Lawyers wanted to split the bill...
>> so
>>
>> the non drinkers ended up splitting the cost of multiple bottles
>> if
>>
>> expensive wine they did not even drink. What is funny is that
>> this
>>
>> happened several times that week.
>
> Aw, then they ( the teetotalers) were saps to keep falling into this
> trap. If you put yourself up for abuse, someone will definitely
> oblige. Dopes.
> \

Not always. This is the woman who I referred to in an old post about a
neighbour throwing a surprise party for her chef husband and asking her
to bring to roasted beef tenderloins and two pricey bottles of wine...
specified the wines. She backed out of it and another neighbour was
asked to bring the tenderloins.

On 2/5/2014 8:45 PM, Kalmia wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 5, 2014 8:15:56 PM UTC-5, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>> I have hear of worse. I know some people who went to an all inclusive
>> hotel in the Caribbean. Friends of the, a lawyer couple stayed in a
>> nicer hotel a few blocks away. The couple I know do not drink. The
>> lawyers drink expensive wines. Lawyers wanted to split the bill... so
>> the non drinkers ended up splitting the cost of multiple bottles if
>> expensive wine they did not even drink. What is funny is that this
>> happened several times that week.
>
> Aw, then they ( the teetotalers) were saps to keep falling into this trap. If you put yourself up for abuse, someone will definitely oblige.
> Dopes.
>
Agreed. If you don't speak up, some people will walk all over you. But
you have to allow them to do it, first.

Jill

"Paul M. Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2014-02-05 16:01, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> On re-read I see the guy elected not to take the wine home. That's what
>>> ticked her off. But still, she also could have said "excuse me but I
>>> think
>>> I'd like to take it with me." I doubt her guest would have cared. You
>>> can
>>> be assertive and not pushy or rude.
>>>
>>
>>
>> He or she had the opportunity to speak up when the waiter suggested that
>> they take the wine home. Notice that he or she said that since he or she
>> was paying he or she should have had the option of giving the wine away.
>> It would seem that the whine is not so much about the wine being given to
>> the waiter, only about who got the credit.
>
> He or she doesn't know how it works in the kitchen. When I was a
> bartender, 3 months of hell, we never allowed wine off premises. It was
> illegal. So bottle remains were kept in the back and at the end of the
> night we just divided up the spoils. Sometimes you'd go home with a nice
> bottle of wine with maybe one glass gone from it. We also did this for
> some of the meals. We'd get whole steaks back with one bite gone or a
> whole oso buco not even so much as touched. The waste was sinful. So we
> ate and drank well even though the work sucked and we saved some wasteful
> souls in the process.

I was a bartender for longer than that, but I agree...it's not a lot of fun.
I wasn't in a dinner house, more of a workingman's bar, but you couldn't
take anything out that was opened.

Cheri

Cheri