When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the environment. When are we going to get serious about something other than fossil fuels for energy?
This is just another in a long line of messes that affect Nature and all of us.


http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...rs/#25734101=0

About 1.5 to 2 million sockeye salmon, from the great Fraser River fishery shared by the U.S. and Canada, are headed for spawning beds in the Quesnel Lake region of British Columbia this summer, where they will run into a major mine disaster.

The Monday breach of a tailings dam at the Mount Polley mine has dumped millions of liters of mine waste, with islands of debris already floating in Quesnel Lake.

The Quesnel-Horsefly river system is one of the mighty Fraser's four largest salmon producing tributaries. An estimated 500,000 salmon are already headed up the Fraser River, with the rest expected in the river by the end of August.

The exact concentration of pollutants they will encounter from Monday's disaster is not known. What is known, from Imperial Mines records, is witches brew of toxic tailings in the pond: Phosphorus, copper, Zinc, cobalt, selenium, arsenic, lead, cadmium, and mercury.

On Friday, August 8, 2014 9:16:59 AM UTC-7, ImStillMags wrote:
> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the environment. When are we going to get serious about something other than fossil fuels for energy?
>
> This is just another in a long line of messes that affect Nature and all of us.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...rs/#25734101=0
>

People here in the Pacific Northwest have been up in arms for years about the treatment of the NW rivers and streams and the existence of salmon farms in the waters off Vancouver Island.

It would behoove everyone to take note, pay attention and yell loudly at any official you can to get this under control.

We are killing off our marine life at an alarming pace.

On Friday, August 8, 2014 12:16:59 PM UTC-4, ImStillMags wrote:
> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the environment. When are we going to get serious about something other than fossil fuels for energy?
>
> This is just another in a long line of messes that affect Nature and all of us.
>
>
>
>
>
> http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...rs/#25734101=0
>
>
>
> About 1.5 to 2 million sockeye salmon, from the great Fraser River fishery shared by the U.S. and Canada, are headed for spawning beds in the Quesnel Lake region of British Columbia this summer, where they will run into a major mine disaster.
>
>
>
> The Monday breach of a tailings dam at the Mount Polley mine has dumped millions of liters of mine waste, with islands of debris already floating in Quesnel Lake.
>
>
>
> The Quesnel-Horsefly river system is one of the mighty Fraser's four largest salmon producing tributaries. An estimated 500,000 salmon are already headed up the Fraser River, with the rest expected in the river by the end of August.
>
>
>
> The exact concentration of pollutants they will encounter from Monday's disaster is not known. What is known, from Imperial Mines records, is witches brew of toxic tailings in the pond: Phosphorus, copper, Zinc, cobalt, selenium, arsenic, lead, cadmium, and mercury.

Should we on the demand side of the story STOP buying all forms of salmon? Or maybe the price increases will eventually regulate the market?

Eventually I think man will foul his nest to the point where he is barely able to survive, and maybe THEN we'll wake up to the effect of past sins. Stone Age living, anyone?

"ImStillMags" > wrote in message
...
When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas companies to
rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the environment. When
are we going to get serious about something other than fossil fuels for
energy?
This is just another in a long line of messes that affect Nature and all of
us.


http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...rs/#25734101=0

About 1.5 to 2 million sockeye salmon, from the great Fraser River fishery
shared by the U.S. and Canada, are headed for spawning beds in the Quesnel
Lake region of British Columbia this summer, where they will run into a
major mine disaster.

The Monday breach of a tailings dam at the Mount Polley mine has dumped
millions of liters of mine waste, with islands of debris already floating in
Quesnel Lake.

The Quesnel-Horsefly river system is one of the mighty Fraser's four largest
salmon producing tributaries. An estimated 500,000 salmon are already headed
up the Fraser River, with the rest expected in the river by the end of
August.

The exact concentration of pollutants they will encounter from Monday's
disaster is not known. What is known, from Imperial Mines records, is
witches brew of toxic tailings in the pond: Phosphorus, copper, Zinc,
cobalt, selenium, arsenic, lead, cadmium, and mercury.


--

When Clark finally spoke, she told reporters that initial water tests were
"promising" and that she hopes for "good luck" that will hold. She
cautioned against "jumping to conclusions." She also said there will be no
public inquiry into the mine disaster.

"It's still a mystery as to how it happened: Once we determine the cause, it'll
be much easier to assign responsibility," said Clark. The mining industry
poured thousands of dollars into the Premier's reelection campaign last
year.



No public inquiry but she is determined to find the cause. Sure. It really
is amazing when you look at the election contrbutions just how little money
these companies pay to completely buy politicians lock stock and barrel. I








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On Friday, August 8, 2014 1:50:55 PM UTC-7, ImStillMags wrote:
> On Friday, August 8, 2014 9:16:59 AM UTC-7, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> > When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the environment. When are we going to get serious about something other than fossil fuels for energy?
>
> >
>
> > This is just another in a long line of messes that affect Nature and all of us.
>

> > http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlepol...rs/#25734101=0

> People here in the Pacific Northwest have been up in arms for years about the treatment of the NW rivers and streams and the existence of salmon farms in the waters off Vancouver Island.

> It would behoove everyone to take note, pay attention and yell loudly at any official you can to get this under control.

I am so pleased to see that people are aware and interested to stop these disasters in the making!

One of the very WORST is the proposed Pebble Mine on Bristol Bay, Alaska. If it is allowed to go ahead, it will devastate a pristine bay, and will completely ruin one of the most important salmon fishing areas in the country -- on which Native Americans and others depend for their food supply.

Support for the powerful environmental organization "Nature Conservancy" whose spokesman is Robert Kennedy has thus far been so effective that all but one of the mining consortium has pulled out. <Nature Conservancy.org>

Now we need to contribute to Nature Conservancy and related organizations like the Sierra Club. And we must bombard our Congress critters with DEMANDS that they protect Bristol Bay from this unprecedented toxic invasion by withdrawing any permits still held by the Pebble Mine people.

No doubt there are similar or allied organizations fighting to preserve the BC coast. Americans and Canadians must work together to protect our mutual coast. If you know about such Canadian groups, please post!
>
> We are killing off our marine life at an alarming pace.

Too true -- but we're not going to stop the slaughter by complaining to each other. We need to ACT fast and furiously.

HB

On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
> than fossil fuels for energy?

You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?

On Saturday, August 9, 2014 5:27:22 AM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> > When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>
> > companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>
> > environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>
> > than fossil fuels for energy?
>
>
>
> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?

There are alternatives to fossil fuels. Many of them. We just need to do it.

On 2014-08-09 9:59 AM, ImStillMags wrote:

>>> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>
>>> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul
>>> the
>>
>>> environment. When are we going to get serious about something
>>> other
>>
>>> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>
>>
>>
>> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>
> There are alternatives to fossil fuels. Many of them. We just
> need to do it.
>


I keep hearing people say that, but I don't see them cutting back on
their personal consumption. The deal seems to be that they expect
everyone else to cut back and do without.

I remember a discussion in the gym locker room a few years ago where one
young guy was hassling an older guy about having flown out to BC to
attend a wedding. He thought that was irresponsible and that unnecessary
travel like that is the cause of global warming. I dared to point out
the he lives close to the gym but drives and probably drives to the
corner store instead of walking. Then there are guys like David Suzuki
flying back and forth to talk the evils of fossil fuel consumption.

Every time there is a crisis that gives oil companies an excuse to jack
up the prices the sale of gas guzzlers drops and people start buying
more fuel efficient vehicles. Once the prices start to drop the sales of
gas guzzlers increases.

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
> wrote:

> There are alternatives to fossil fuels. Many of them. We just need to do it.

Agree.


--
Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them.

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 9, 2014 5:27:22 AM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>> > When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>
>> > companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>
>> > environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>>
>> > than fossil fuels for energy?
>>
>>
>>
>> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>
>There are alternatives to fossil fuels. Many of them. We just need to do it.

Many of the apparently innocent alternatives are far worse... don't
ask for what you don't want to get.

On Saturday, August 9, 2014 8:41:43 AM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
>
> > wrote:
>
>
>
> >On Saturday, August 9, 2014 5:27:22 AM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> >> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> > When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the environment. When are we going to get serious about something other than fossil fuels for energy?

> >> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>
> >
>
> >There are alternatives to fossil fuels. Many of them. We just need to do it.
>

> Many of the apparently innocent alternatives are far worse... don't
>
> ask for what you don't want to get.

That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)

The law of unintended consequences has not been repealed (G> as far as I know.
It behooves our elected representatives and certainly the companies that would seek to benefit from Technology X to weigh the cost-benefit ratio ETHICALLY and share results TRANSPARENTLY with the people.

That said, rather than deal in generalities, you could help us by listing some of the alternative technologies which you believe would be "far worse" and why that would be.

HB

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 08:54:10 -0700 (PDT), Hypatia Nachshon
> wrote:

>
> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)

I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.




--
Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them.

On 09/08/2014 10:02 AM, sf wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 08:54:10 -0700 (PDT), Hypatia Nachshon
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)
>
> I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
> farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.
>

However, windfarms are supported by one group of environmentalists but
condemned by another group for killing birds.
Yer can't win!!!!
Graham

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>> than fossil fuels for energy?
>
> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?

How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive environmental
devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up. The
whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many more
billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How many
more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules and
force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
those responsible are imprisoned.



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On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
wrote:

>
> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
> >> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
> >> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
> >> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
> >> than fossil fuels for energy?
> >
> > You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>
> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive environmental
> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up. The
> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many more
> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How many
> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules and
> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
> those responsible are imprisoned.
>

The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
continuously so people start understanding that their particular
incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
it.


--
Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them.

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>> >> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>> >> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>> >> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>> >> than fossil fuels for energy?
>> >
>> > You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>
>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>> environmental
>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>> The
>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many more
>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>> many
>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>> and
>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>
>
> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
> it.
>

Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and destroy
a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.


>
> --
> Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to
> hold them.



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On 8/9/2014 12:01 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
> Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up. The
> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure.

Better ask the microbes that digested all that oil:

http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...es-slide-show/


The Deepwater Horizon oil spill added roughly 800 million liters of
hydrocarbons to the Gulf of Mexico. One quarter of that has been burned,
captured or skimmed, according to U.S. government estimates. That leaves
the rest for trillions of microbes to feast on—a petroleum cornucopia
that first became available April 20 when the oil platform exploded and
the spill started.


http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...ype=blogs&_r=0

Oil-eating bacteria exist in significant quantities even in the deep
waters of the Gulf of Mexico, and may be breaking down submerged oil
from the Deepwater Horizon oil leak faster than previously believed,
scientists are reporting today.

The bacteria were found in a plume of microscopic oil droplets more than
3,000 feet below the surface, in the vicinity of BP’s blown-out well, by
a group of scientists led by Terry Hazen, a senior ecologist at the
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory. Their presence may have been
overlooked by other researchers because the variety found in the plume
do not seem to be consuming much oxygen from the water column, unlike
most oil-digesting bacteria, the scientists said.

On 2014-08-09 12:02 PM, sf wrote:

>> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)
>
> I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
> farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.
>
>

There are wind farms in two towns adjacent to ours and the residents are
really upset about them. The most recent controversy was about a month
ago when they okayed on to be erected 2km away from a sky diving venue.
I have to wonder about that one. They are about 200 m high. I would
think that if someone was so far off course that they would hit
something that high 2 km, almost a mile and a half away from their
landing zone, they were pretty well toast anyway.

On 2014-08-09 12:53 PM, graham wrote:
> On 09/08/2014 10:02 AM, sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 08:54:10 -0700 (PDT), Hypatia Nachshon
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it
>>> depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being
>>> opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view.
>>> (Yes, it happened!)
>>
>> I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
>> farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.
>>
>
> However, windfarms are supported by one group of environmentalists but
> condemned by another group for killing birds.
> Yer can't win!!!!


You have to wonder if birds who are dumb enough to be hit by a slow
moving blade stand much of a chance to get through live anyway. For
some species of birds, tall buildings pose a much greater risk. Then
there are the migrating insects like the monarch butterfly. While the
adults that leave here are not the same as those who eventually get to
Mexico, you have to wonder how any of them make it. They have to cross
hundreds, maybe thousands of roads along the way, and every car truck
and motorcyclist is splattered with dead butterflies.

On 2014-08-09 2:01 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:

> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive environmental
> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up. The
> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many more
> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How many
> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules and
> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
> those responsible are imprisoned.
>
>
I thought it was supposed to be regulated. Bear in mind that industries
tend to have some say in the development of regulations. You can be
sure that they argue about the real cost of living in the ideal world
compared to the real world of finance and strike a balance. I think we
can be sure that the tipping point might be affect by contributions to
campaign funds at the very least.

On 2014-08-09 2:43 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>>> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>>>> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>>>> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>>>>> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>>>
>>>> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>>
>>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>>> environmental
>>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>>> The
>>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many more
>>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>>> many
>>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>>> and
>>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>>
>>
>> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
>> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
>> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
>> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
>> it.
>>
>
> Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and destroy
> a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
> environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
>
>

Yeah. We really screwed up with the Exxon Valdez, the Love Canal and the
Deepwater Horizon oil spill.

On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 15:06:41 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> On 2014-08-09 12:02 PM, sf wrote:
>
> >> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)
> >
> > I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
> > farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.
> >
> >
>
> There are wind farms in two towns adjacent to ours and the residents are
> really upset about them. The most recent controversy was about a month
> ago when they okayed on to be erected 2km away from a sky diving venue.
> I have to wonder about that one. They are about 200 m high. I would
> think that if someone was so far off course that they would hit
> something that high 2 km, almost a mile and a half away from their
> landing zone, they were pretty well toast anyway.

Sorry, can't feel sorry for skydivers who can't hit their mark... or
skydivers in general for that matter. I would bet that chances are
greater of them dying from their chute not opening vs hitting a giant
windmill.


--
Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them.

On 8/9/2014 2:06 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2014-08-09 12:02 PM, sf wrote:
>
>>> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it
>>> depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being
>>> opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view.
>>> (Yes, it happened!)
>>
>> I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
>> farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.
>>
>>
>
> There are wind farms in two towns adjacent to ours and the residents are
> really upset about them. The most recent controversy was about a month
> ago when they okayed on to be erected 2km away from a sky diving venue.
> I have to wonder about that one. They are about 200 m high. I would
> think that if someone was so far off course that they would hit
> something that high 2 km, almost a mile and a half away from their
> landing zone, they were pretty well toast anyway.
>
We had some folks upset about the possibility of migrating birds hitting
the wind farms. Even though we are on a major flyway, it hasn't happened.

I think the wind turbines are beautiful when performing their ballet in
the sky.

--
From somewhere very deep in the heart of Texas

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 08:54:10 -0700 (PDT), Hypatia Nachshon
> wrote:

>On Saturday, August 9, 2014 8:41:43 AM UTC-7, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 06:59:46 -0700 (PDT), ImStillMags
>>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> >On Saturday, August 9, 2014 5:27:22 AM UTC-7, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>> >> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>
>> >>
>>
>> >> > When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the environment. When are we going to get serious about something other than fossil fuels for energy?
>
>> >> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>
>> >
>>
>> >There are alternatives to fossil fuels. Many of them. We just need to do it.
>>
>
>> Many of the apparently innocent alternatives are far worse... don't
>>
>> ask for what you don't want to get.
>
>That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)
>
>The law of unintended consequences has not been repealed (G> as far as I know.
>It behooves our elected representatives and certainly the companies that would seek to benefit from Technology X to weigh the cost-benefit ratio ETHICALLY and share results TRANSPARENTLY with the people.
>
>That said, rather than deal in generalities, you could help us by listing some of the alternative technologies which you believe would be "far worse" and why that would be.
>
>HB

Wind farms are prohitively expensive to build and maintain and they
have a relatively short lifespan plus the wind ain't always blowing or
blowing at enough velosity to produce more than a trickle charge.

Solar panels actually pollute to manufacture, requires much fossil
fuels to create all those plastics, need thousands of large units to
power a tiny village and solar panels also have a relatively short
lifespan, and they don't do diddly at night or on cloudy, rainy, snowy
days, yet the plastic still outgasses and deteriorates.

I worked for a National Laboratory that is still doing major research
in alternatives but we're not there, not even close. The most
promising research is in better electrical transmission, not
production.

Hate to bust yer bubble but we're pretty much stuck on this planet of
finite resources... best hope we have on this cosmic rock is to
conserve what exists and the best way (likely the only way) is with
less population... this planet is way over crowded. Since people
aren't prone to curtail their fanatical propensity to reproduce (there
are way too many cockaroaches) the only prayer we have are more wars,
more violent wars, and/or more efficient plagues. Half the US
population is on the dole, they contribute zip, they're very
expendable. A nuclear war and ebola can be this planet's salvation.
At the very least cease and desist from feeding the cockaroaches. I
look at the news regarding the middle east and all I see are over
active gonads. Humans are really no different from the feral beasts,
they are all competing for resources... when there isn't enough to
feed the population it's kill or be killed, survival of the fittist.
Were it me I'd nuke the terrorists, collateral damage be damned. When
was the last time you ate food or used anything other than mind
altering drugs produced in Iraq and Afghanistan... I rest my case. I
woulda had them nuked years ago, after all what they're about is
absolutely no different from what the japs were about attacking
Hawaii. All religion is the worst scourge, it teaches not to curtail
reproduction... every religion is competing to out populate another...
the most misery on this planet is attributal to religion... the mere
mention of god, any god, needs to be punishable by death, instant
death, no trial, no nothing... without god there'd finally be peace on
planet Earth.

On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 10:53:59 -0600, graham > wrote:

>On 09/08/2014 10:02 AM, sf wrote:
>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 08:54:10 -0700 (PDT), Hypatia Nachshon
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)
>>
>> I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
>> farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.
>>
>
>However, windfarms are supported by one group of environmentalists but
>condemned by another group for killing birds.
>Yer can't win!!!!
>Graham

Wind farms do nothing when your god ain't farting.

On 8/9/2014 1:30 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2014-08-09 2:43 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> "sf" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>>>> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>>>>> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>>>>> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>>>>>> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>>>>
>>>>> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>>>
>>>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>>>> environmental
>>>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>>>> The
>>>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>>>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many
>>>> more
>>>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>>>> many
>>>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>>>> and
>>>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>>>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
>>> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
>>> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
>>> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>> Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and
>> destroy
>> a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
>> environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah. We really screwed up with the Exxon Valdez, the Love Canal and the
> Deepwater Horizon oil spill.
>

Lac Megantic...

A whole freaking downtown!

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/...medium=twitter

On 2014-08-09 4:30 PM, Janet Wilder wrote:
..
>> I have to wonder about that one. They are about 200 m high. I would
>> think that if someone was so far off course that they would hit
>> something that high 2 km, almost a mile and a half away from their
>> landing zone, they were pretty well toast anyway.
>>
> We had some folks upset about the possibility of migrating birds hitting
> the wind farms. Even though we are on a major flyway, it hasn't happened.
>
> I think the wind turbines are beautiful when performing their ballet in
> the sky.
>


I saw a lot of them in Denmark and Germany. There is a certain grace to
them when they are all turning in sync. On the ferry trip from Denmark
to Germany there were dozens of them along the German shoreline.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2014-08-09 2:43 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> "sf" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>>>> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>>>>> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>>>>> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>>>>>> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>>>>
>>>>> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>>>
>>>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>>>> environmental
>>>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>>>> The
>>>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>>>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many
>>>> more
>>>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>>>> many
>>>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>>>> and
>>>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>>>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
>>> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
>>> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
>>> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>> Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and
>> destroy
>> a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
>> environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
>>
>>
>
> Yeah. We really screwed up with the Exxon Valdez, the Love Canal and the
> Deepwater Horizon oil spill.

Tar sands anyone? Have you seen the devastation? Canadians are not
environmentalists by a long shot. The timber and mining and now energy
companies have horrid records and have enormous political power. It's just
Canada is so vast with such a small population it goes unnoticed. Canada
has also destroyed the North Atlantic cod fishery which will probably never
recover. Then they have the deforestation of the last stands of virgin pine
and redwoods left in the world.

Don't lecture me on Canadian environmentalism.



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"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2014-08-09 2:01 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>> environmental
>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>> The
>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many more
>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>> many
>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>> and
>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>
>>
> I thought it was supposed to be regulated. Bear in mind that industries
> tend to have some say in the development of regulations. You can be sure
> that they argue about the real cost of living in the ideal world compared
> to the real world of finance and strike a balance. I think we can be sure
> that the tipping point might be affect by contributions to campaign funds
> at the very least.

The key word here is "thought." Apparently your republican administration
has made great strides in softening environmental laws. Did you read the
provincial governors response that there would be no public inquiry? I mean
how do they get away with that if government was not in their hip pocket?




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On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:43:58 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
wrote:

>
>"sf" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>> >> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>> >> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>> >> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>>> >> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>> >
>>> > You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>>
>>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>>> environmental
>>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>>> The
>>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many more
>>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>>> many
>>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>>> and
>>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>>
>>
>> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
>> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
>> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
>> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
>> it.
>>
>
>Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and destroy
>a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
>environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
>

Snork!
Try plugging all these into your search engine of choice:

Gulf of Mexico Dead Zone
Love Canal
Ecocide Vietnam
Amoco Cadiz
Deep Water Horizon
Libby Asbestos Contamination
Palomares B-52 Crash
Three Mile Island
Castle Bravo
Exxon Valdez
TVA Kingston

Eleven of the world's top 25 ecological disasters!
Talk about crappy.

Ross.
Southern Ontario, Canada

<Ross@home> wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:43:58 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"sf" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> > On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>> >> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>>> >> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>>> >> environment. When are we going to get serious about something
>>>> >> other
>>>> >> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>>> >
>>>> > You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>>>
>>>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>>>> environmental
>>>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>>>> The
>>>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>>>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many
>>>> more
>>>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>>>> many
>>>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>>>> and
>>>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>>>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
>>> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
>>> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
>>> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
>>> it.
>>>
>>
>>Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and
>>destroy
>>a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
>>environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
>>
>
> Snork!
> Try plugging all these into your search engine of choice:
>
> Gulf of Mexico Dead Zone
> Love Canal
> Ecocide Vietnam
> Amoco Cadiz
> Deep Water Horizon
> Libby Asbestos Contamination
> Palomares B-52 Crash
> Three Mile Island
> Castle Bravo
> Exxon Valdez
> TVA Kingston
>
> Eleven of the world's top 25 ecological disasters!
> Talk about crappy.

I can name a lot more. Not trying to offend Canadians here. I am pointing
out that Canada does and has for a long time had some pretty crappy
environmental practices. The destruction of 2 million salmon is just the
beginning. TransCanada is as corrupt and lawless as the worst of American
energy companies.




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"squirts" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/9/2014 12:01 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>> Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up. The
>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure.
>
> Better ask the microbes that digested all that oil:
>
> http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...es-slide-show/
>
>
> The Deepwater Horizon oil spill added roughly 800 million liters of
> hydrocarbons to the Gulf of Mexico. One quarter of that has been burned,
> captured or skimmed, according to U.S. government estimates. That leaves
> the rest for trillions of microbes to feast on—a petroleum cornucopia that
> first became available April 20 when the oil platform exploded and the
> spill started.
>
>
> http://green.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/...ype=blogs&_r=0
>
> Oil-eating bacteria exist in significant quantities even in the deep
> waters of the Gulf of Mexico, and may be breaking down submerged oil from
> the Deepwater Horizon oil leak faster than previously believed, scientists
> are reporting today.
>
> The bacteria were found in a plume of microscopic oil droplets more than
> 3,000 feet below the surface, in the vicinity of BP’s blown-out well, by a
> group of scientists led by Terry Hazen, a senior ecologist at the Lawrence
> Berkeley National Laboratory. Their presence may have been overlooked by
> other researchers because the variety found in the plume do not seem to be
> consuming much oxygen from the water column, unlike most oil-digesting
> bacteria, the scientists said.
>

Except the microbes do not live in cold deep water which is where most of
the oil is now. Also, they used a product called Correxit which is causing
more troubles to this day than the oil. Correxit has been found to be a
serious neurological toxin and has a very long lifespan.

Sea life in the gulf is suffering terribly to this day and it is only
getting worse as the contamination spreads. Every species is suffering from
shrimp and oysters all the way up to whal;es and dolphins. Dolphin deaths
have quadruped and show no sign of abating. Dead sperm whales found
floating in the Gulf are at record numbers. Even inland in the marshes the
bacteria you describe has not eliminated much of the oil which is mostly
still there.

But thank you for the BP editorial piece.




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On 2014-08-09 19:08, Paul M. Cook wrote:

>>>
>> I thought it was supposed to be regulated. Bear in mind that industries
>> tend to have some say in the development of regulations. You can be sure
>> that they argue about the real cost of living in the ideal world compared
>> to the real world of finance and strike a balance. I think we can be sure
>> that the tipping point might be affect by contributions to campaign funds
>> at the very least.
>
> The key word here is "thought." Apparently your republican administration
> has made great strides in softening environmental laws. Did you read the
> provincial governors response that there would be no public inquiry? I mean
> how do they get away with that if government was not in their hip pocket?

I didn't know we even had provincial governors. It might help to
understand what a public inquiry is. It doesn't meant that they aren't
investigating the incident.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2014-08-09 19:08, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>
>>>>
>>> I thought it was supposed to be regulated. Bear in mind that industries
>>> tend to have some say in the development of regulations. You can be
>>> sure
>>> that they argue about the real cost of living in the ideal world
>>> compared
>>> to the real world of finance and strike a balance. I think we can be
>>> sure
>>> that the tipping point might be affect by contributions to campaign
>>> funds
>>> at the very least.
>>
>> The key word here is "thought." Apparently your republican
>> administration
>> has made great strides in softening environmental laws. Did you read the
>> provincial governors response that there would be no public inquiry? I
>> mean
>> how do they get away with that if government was not in their hip pocket?
>
> I didn't know we even had provincial governors. It might help to
> understand what a public inquiry is. It doesn't meant that they aren't
> investigating the incident.

Oh no, of course. The company responsible will fully investigate
themselves. After which they will absolve themselves of any responsibility
whatsoever and blame it on an act of nature. You watch. And then they will
refuse to pay for the cleanup or for the lives shattered by their
recklessness.



---
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On Sat, 09 Aug 2014 20:06:54 -0400, Ross@home wrote:

> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:43:58 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"sf" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >>
> >> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
> >> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
> >> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
> >> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
> >> it.
> >>
> >
> >Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and destroy
> >a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
> >environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
> >
>
> Snork!
> Try plugging all these into your search engine of choice:
>
> Gulf of Mexico Dead Zone
> Love Canal
> Ecocide Vietnam
> Amoco Cadiz
> Deep Water Horizon
> Libby Asbestos Contamination
> Palomares B-52 Crash
> Three Mile Island
> Castle Bravo
> Exxon Valdez
> TVA Kingston
>
> Eleven of the world's top 25 ecological disasters!
> Talk about crappy.
>
Nobody is bragging. The 2010 rupture in the Kalamazoo river of a
pipeline (operated by Enbridge, Inc.) that transports Canadian crude
oil is still being cleaned up. http://www.epa.gov/enbridgespill/

I wish people would wake up and vote the politicians big oil has
bought out of office. These oil spills are not isolated incidents.
They happen often and all over North America, but people are not
informed and don't understand how badly our environment is being
brutalized by petroleum and chemical companies.


--
Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them.

On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 17:17:23 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
wrote:

> TransCanada is as corrupt and lawless as the worst of American
> energy companies.

Absolutely.


--
Avoid cutting yourself when slicing vegetables by getting someone else to hold them.

On 2014-08-09 19:05, Paul M. Cook wrote:
> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2014-08-09 2:43 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>> "sf" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>>>>> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>>>>>> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>>>>>> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>>>>>>> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>>>>> environmental
>>>>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>>>>> The
>>>>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>>>>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many
>>>>> more
>>>>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>>>>> many
>>>>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>>>>> and
>>>>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>>>>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
>>>> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
>>>> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
>>>> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and
>>> destroy
>>> a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
>>> environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yeah. We really screwed up with the Exxon Valdez, the Love Canal and the
>> Deepwater Horizon oil spill.
>
> Tar sands anyone? Have you seen the devastation?

The tar sands are an ecological disaster? Hell, it might leave land
looking like some of those big open pit mines in the US where mountains
have been removed.


> Canadians are not
> environmentalists by a long shot. The timber and mining and now energy
> companies have horrid records and have enormous political power. It's just
> Canada is so vast with such a small population it goes unnoticed. Canada
> has also destroyed the North Atlantic cod fishery which will probably never
> recover.

Canada was not the only country fishing for cod in the Atlantic. They
live out in the ocean. It was Canada that imposed a moratorium on cod
fishing.





>Then they have the deforestation of the last stands of virgin pine
> and redwoods left in the world.

Where is this deforestation? Canada has long had a policy of
replanting. Its record of deforestation compares favourably with the
word. Last stands of virgin pine and redwoods??? If we are so bad are
deforestation, how is it that we have the last stands? Funny how some
people point to Canadian and South American deforestation when their own
forests were cut down many years ago.



>
> Don't lecture me on Canadian environmentalism.
>
Yeah. Right.

On 2014-08-09 20:33, Paul M. Cook wrote:

>>> The key word here is "thought." Apparently your republican
>>> administration
>>> has made great strides in softening environmental laws. Did you read the
>>> provincial governors response that there would be no public inquiry? I
>>> mean
>>> how do they get away with that if government was not in their hip pocket?
>>
>> I didn't know we even had provincial governors. It might help to
>> understand what a public inquiry is. It doesn't meant that they aren't
>> investigating the incident.
>
> Oh no, of course. The company responsible will fully investigate
> themselves. After which they will absolve themselves of any responsibility
> whatsoever and blame it on an act of nature. You watch. And then they will
> refuse to pay for the cleanup or for the lives shattered by their
> recklessness.
>
Like I said, it might help to know what a public inquiry is.

On 09/08/2014 5:05 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 2014-08-09 2:43 PM, Paul M. Cook wrote:
>>> "sf" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> On Sat, 9 Aug 2014 11:01:08 -0700, "Paul M. Cook" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>>> On 2014-08-08 12:16 PM, ImStillMags wrote:
>>>>>>> When are we going to stop allowing these mining, oil and gas
>>>>>>> companies to rape the land and leave their shit behind to foul the
>>>>>>> environment. When are we going to get serious about something other
>>>>>>> than fossil fuels for energy?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You travel everywhere by bicycle and stopped heating your house?
>>>>>
>>>>> How about regulating the extraction of this stuff so massive
>>>>> environmental
>>>>> devastation doesn't happen? Prevention is far cheaper than a clean up.
>>>>> The
>>>>> whole point is that big energy is being allowed to run rampant with lax
>>>>> regulation. How many more Gulf oil spills can we endure. How many
>>>>> more
>>>>> billion gallon sludge ponds wiping out entire towns do we endure? How
>>>>> many
>>>>> more Exxon Valdez's before we make these companies follow strict rules
>>>>> and
>>>>> force them to pay for every single cent of cleaning up their mess after
>>>>> those responsible are imprisoned.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The media should start publicizing these things more widely and
>>>> continuously so people start understanding that their particular
>>>> incident isn't an isolated one. I didn't even know about the Fraser
>>>> River fishery disaster in the making until ImStillMags posted about
>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Not to mention a gold mine which will mwipe out another fishery and
>>> destroy
>>> a huge chunk of the coastal ecosystem. I always knew Canada had a crappy
>>> environmental record but it seems they have gotten much worse.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Yeah. We really screwed up with the Exxon Valdez, the Love Canal and the
>> Deepwater Horizon oil spill.
>
> Tar sands anyone? Have you seen the devastation? Canadians are not
> environmentalists by a long shot. The timber and mining and now energy
> companies have horrid records and have enormous political power. It's just
> Canada is so vast with such a small population it goes unnoticed. Canada
> has also destroyed the North Atlantic cod fishery which will probably never
> recover. Then they have the deforestation of the last stands of virgin pine
> and redwoods left in the world.
>
> Don't lecture me on Canadian environmentalism.
>
DON'T LECTURE ME ON YOUR WARPED VIEW OF THE OIL SANDS!!!!!!
DEVASTATION?
Oil has been leaking into the rivers for millenia. If you kneel on the
muskeg up there, your pants will be covered in oil.
Those huge open pit operations are in fact CLEANING UP THE ENVIRONMENT!!!!!

CANDADA DID NOT DESTROY THE COD FISHERY!!!!!
THAT WAS THE ****ING SPANIARDS WITH THEIR FINE-MESHED NETS.
VA-TE-FAIRE ENCULER!!!
Graham

On Saturday, August 9, 2014 3:06:41 PM UTC-4, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2014-08-09 12:02 PM, sf wrote:
>
>
>
> >> That's a challenging statement, which is worth examining. Often it depends on whose ox is gored.For example an offshore wind farm being opposed by rich residents because they say it would spoil their view. (Yes, it happened!)
>
> >
>
> > I'd rather look at wind turbines than off shore oil rigs (I think wind
>
> > farms are amazing sights anyway). Oil rigs pollute, wind farms don't.
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
> There are wind farms in two towns adjacent to ours and the residents are
>
> really upset about them.

Sounds similar to the celltower complaints.