On 7/28/2015 7:52 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 01:40:29 -0500, Sky >
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/26/2015 4:58 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> I caught a small portion of a radio show about kids in restaurants. One
>>> women, who seemed to have some expertise on manners and training kids,
>>> suggest that if the place does not have high chairs..... maybe it's a
>>> place you should not be taking small children.
>>
>> IMNSHO, if children are appropriately behaved, sure, they can and should
>> accompany their parents to any restaurant. BUT! Big, but!! If the
>> child(ren) is(are) unhappy(!!) and/or misbehaves, then the parents
>> should be obligated to take their child(ren) to another 'arena' (the
>> restroom? outside?) until their child's attitude is better suited to the
>> 'atmosphere' of the situation --- I hope this makes sense. In no way
>> did I allow (my) child to disturb any other diners' experiences while at
>> any restaurant.
>>
>> When DS was young and (rarely) exhibited unbecoming behavior, I merely
>> asked him, "Do you want to go to the restroom to have a 'conversation'?"
>> It's never wise to castigate or chastise a child (or anyone regardless
>> of age!) in public. Humiliation is cruel!
>>
>> DS's younger cousin, on the other hand (10++ years difference), was a
>> virtual devil when it came to any public affair -- my brother and his
>> wife did nothing to teach their young child proper manners or behavior
>> when in public!
>>
>> Is this poor parenting? An example is/was (years ago) . . . 3-year old
>> cousin was allowed to walk around a posh restaurant dinner table (party
>> of 12+ adults) for a graduation party. The child was allowed to
>> roam/walk everywhere along the dinner table (other diners' tables, too!)
>> with nary any supervision while folks dined, clamoring all over! Not in
>> my book - time for the child to go outside/home with their parent(s)!
>> Alas, teaching their very young child proper manners was not a priority
>> for my brother and his wife at that time
>>
>> Sky
>
> I never allowed my daughter or any child to disturb dinner at home...
> never had to say anything either, just gave 'that' look. Children who
> act up at eateries it's because there's no control at home. When
> children are raised like feral beasts that's how they behave all the
> time... I never blame the child, I blame their zoo keeper.
>
+1

On 7/28/2015 8:08 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> MaryL
>>
>> The only time I've been on an airplane with a crying baby,
>
> When people with infants/todlers book a flight they should be made to
> ride in a carrier cage in the cargo hold with pets, or in an exterior
> pod.
>

Sarcasm?

You have to know that's child abuse.

On 7/28/2015 6:36 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Monday, July 27, 2015 at 7:14:55 PM UTC-4, jmcquown wrote:
>> On 7/27/2015 1:40 PM, sf wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 10:44:06 -0500, MaryL
>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>> My sister's niece has four very young children, and she and her
>>>> husband take them on a great many airplane trips. She said they get
>>>> some "dirty looks" from other passengers when they board the plane with
>>>> four youngsters, but they often get grateful comments when they exit.
>>>> Each parent sits with two children, and they take great care to keep the
>>>> children entertained and quiet.
>>>>
>>> The only time I've been on an airplane with a crying baby, the baby
>>> obviously had an ear problem that was the cause. I was seated
>>> directly across the aisle and barely heard the cries over all the
>>> airplane noise, so AFAIC anyone who complains about that sort of thing
>>> must *want* to be wound up about something... however small.
>>>
>> How does a baby obviously have an ear problem?
>
> Babies can't clear their ears when the cabin pressure changes.
> It's painful. I'd cry, too. Or at least whimper a bit.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
I accept that. I had chronic ear infections when I was a kid. Painful!
Then again, I wasn't flying all over the place as an infant. It
simply wouldn't have been the first thing I thought of. Pardon moi

Jill

On 7/28/2015 10:08 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
> MaryL
>>
>> The only time I've been on an airplane with a crying baby,
>
> When people with infants/todlers book a flight they should be made to
> ride in a carrier cage in the cargo hold with pets, or in an exterior
> pod.
>
Good lord! I wouldn't even do that to a pet!

Jill

On 7/28/2015 6:42 AM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She brought
>>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
>>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
>>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
>>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She was
>>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
>>>
>> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
>> long in the tooth.
>>
>>
> I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
> book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
> and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
> ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
> had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
> Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
> the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>
> Jill

And parents who permit their toddlers to do that end up with adults who
feel enabled. I once loaned one of my textbooks to one of my students
because I noticed him sitting in class without a book. He claimed that
he could not afford a book. That was believable--the books cost well in
excess of $100.00, even though I tried to limit the cost by selecting
books that could be used for two semesters instead of only one. The
book was in mint condition when he received it. When he returned it, he
had marked throughout the book. Granted, I marked books when I was a
student, but I never marked books on any other occasion. The only good
thing about it was that it did show he was studying, but it showed
complete lack of appreciation for someone else's property.

MaryL

On 7/28/2015 2:40 AM, Sky wrote:

> IMNSHO, if children are appropriately behaved, sure, they can and should
> accompany their parents to any restaurant. BUT! Big, but!! If the
> child(ren) is(are) unhappy(!!) and/or misbehaves, then the parents
> should be obligated to take their child(ren) to another 'arena' (the
> restroom? outside?) until their child's attitude is better suited to the
> 'atmosphere' of the situation --- I hope this makes sense. In no way
> did I allow (my) child to disturb any other diners' experiences while at
> any restaurant.

I've eaten out a gazillion times and there were very few times
a child was a problem at all. Perhaps it has to do with my
choice of restaurants, but even when children are present, usually
I don't even notice them unless I happen to look around. This is
true even at a fancy place and even to theme parks. And planes.
Guess I've been lucky, I've seen way more annoying adults than
children there.

I think the ones who are out of control or who are not taken out
when they start crying/etc make it seem like all kids are bad news.
I'm hardly around kids so I am sensitive to the sound of a kid's
screech, not deaf to it like some parents seem to be, so it's not
like I wouldn't notice.

> DS's younger cousin, on the other hand (10++ years difference), was a
> virtual devil when it came to any public affair -- my brother and his
> wife did nothing to teach their young child proper manners or behavior
> when in public!
>
> Is this poor parenting? An example is/was (years ago) . . . 3-year old
> cousin was allowed to walk around a posh restaurant dinner table (party
> of 12+ adults) for a graduation party. The child was allowed to
> roam/walk everywhere along the dinner table (other diners' tables, too!)
> with nary any supervision while folks dined, clamoring all over! Not in
> my book - time for the child to go outside/home with their parent(s)!
> Alas, teaching their very young child proper manners was not a priority
> for my brother and his wife at that time

Curious how that cousin turned out. Fine, probably. Too bad for
the other diners and the wait staff that has to watch out for the little
darling running amok.

nancy

On 28/07/2015 8:33 AM, MaryL wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 6:42 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>> On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She brought
>>>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
>>>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
>>>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
>>>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She
>>>> was
>>>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
>>>>
>>> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
>>> long in the tooth.
>>>
>>>
>> I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>> book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
>> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>> and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>> ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
>> had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>> Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>> the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>>
>> Jill
>
> And parents who permit their toddlers to do that end up with adults who
> feel enabled. I once loaned one of my textbooks to one of my students
> because I noticed him sitting in class without a book. He claimed that
> he could not afford a book. That was believable--the books cost well in
> excess of $100.00, even though I tried to limit the cost by selecting
> books that could be used for two semesters instead of only one. The
> book was in mint condition when he received it. When he returned it, he
> had marked throughout the book. Granted, I marked books when I was a
> student, but I never marked books on any other occasion. The only good
> thing about it was that it did show he was studying, but it showed
> complete lack of appreciation for someone else's property.
>
> MaryL
>
Non-fiction books from the public library are similarly marked.
Mind you, I am often tempted to correct grammatical errors but that
would reduce me to the level of the book vandals.
Graham

--
"You can't buy happiness, but you can buy wine,
which is kind of the same thing".

On 28/07/2015 8:37 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 2:40 AM, Sky wrote:
>
>> IMNSHO, if children are appropriately behaved, sure, they can and should
>> accompany their parents to any restaurant. BUT! Big, but!! If the
>> child(ren) is(are) unhappy(!!) and/or misbehaves, then the parents
>> should be obligated to take their child(ren) to another 'arena' (the
>> restroom? outside?) until their child's attitude is better suited to the
>> 'atmosphere' of the situation --- I hope this makes sense. In no way
>> did I allow (my) child to disturb any other diners' experiences while at
>> any restaurant.
>
> I've eaten out a gazillion times and there were very few times
> a child was a problem at all.

The only time one of my sons caused a bit of a problem was when he was
about 2.5yrs old. We were in a restaurant in Halifax, N.S., when
suddenly, at the top of his voice, he shouted: "**** off, Daddy!"
We were embarrassed, of course, but the rest of the diners were laughing
their heads off!
Graham
--
"You can't buy happiness, but you can buy wine,
which is kind of the same thing".

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:49:16 -0400, jmcquown >
wrote:

>On 7/28/2015 9:21 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:42:22 -0400, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She brought
>>>>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
>>>>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
>>>>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
>>>>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She was
>>>>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
>>>>>
>>>> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
>>>> long in the tooth.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>>> book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
>>> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>>> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>>> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>>> and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>>> ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
>>> had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>>> Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>>> the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>>>
>>> Jill
>>
>> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>>
>Really? Destruction of personal property or throwing food at someone is
>okay with you?

I didn't say it was ok. It is just not odd behavior for a young child
though. Kids do all sorts of stuff and their parents/caregivers are
the ones who are supposed to rein them in if they get out of hand.
That is how a child is trained. Puppies, too.

On 7/28/2015 9:33 AM, MaryL wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 6:42 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>> On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She brought
>>>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
>>>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
>>>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
>>>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She
>>>> was
>>>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
>>>>
>>> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
>>> long in the tooth.
>>>
>>>
>> I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>> book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
>> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>> and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>> ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
>> had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>> Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>> the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>>
>> Jill
>
> And parents who permit their toddlers to do that end up with adults who
> feel enabled. I once loaned one of my textbooks to one of my students
> because I noticed him sitting in class without a book. He claimed that
> he could not afford a book. That was believable--the books cost well in
> excess of $100.00, even though I tried to limit the cost by selecting
> books that could be used for two semesters instead of only one. The
> book was in mint condition when he received it. When he returned it, he
> had marked throughout the book. Granted, I marked books when I was a
> student, but I never marked books on any other occasion. The only good
> thing about it was that it did show he was studying, but it showed
> complete lack of appreciation for someone else's property.
>
> MaryL
>

Ooops! I should have said that I marked my *personal* textbooks when I
was a student. I *never* marked books that belonged to someone else (or
to the library). Likewise, I never earmarked pages in books belonging
to someone else.

MaryL

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 14:54:12 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>>
>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:42:22 -0400, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She brought
>> >>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
>> >>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
>> >>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
>> >>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She was
>> >>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
>> >>>
>> >> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
>> >> long in the tooth.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>> >book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
>> > I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>> > She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>> >than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>> >and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>> >ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
>> >had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>> >Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>> >the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>> >
>> >Jill
>>
>> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>
> I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
>
> Janet UK

I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.

Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues? They
will experiment with anything and everything in sight. That is why
homes are child-proofed and kids are watched. If they are not watched
or minded by their caregivers pretty damn every second, then at some
point, mayhem will ensue.

Many times, the parents are to blame as they were not being
responsible. Many times kids just find somethign to get into and no
one could have predicted it would have happened. (A FOAF's kid once
emptied an entire container of baby powder all over the living room to
mimic the snow coming down outside. Another FOAF's kid ate dog shit
that an inconsiderate pet owner had not picked up in the park).

Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc, and then
it is anyone's game what can happen. It is unpredictable and a
caregiver deals with it as best as possible. In some places that is
easy - such as a restaurant, in others, such as a plane, it isn't. I
have seen more unruly behavior among adults, drunk or sober on planes
than I have kids. It's quieter sometimes, but a lot nastier, and it
cannot be blamed on the vaguaries of childhood.

On 7/28/2015 8:54 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:49:16 -0400, jmcquown >
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/28/2015 9:21 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:42:22 -0400, jmcquown >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She brought
>>>>>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
>>>>>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
>>>>>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
>>>>>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She was
>>>>>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
>>>>>>
>>>>> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
>>>>> long in the tooth.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>>>> book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
>>>> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>>>> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>>>> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>>>> and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>>>> ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
>>>> had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>>>> Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>>>> the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>>>>
>>>> Jill
>>>
>>> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>>>
>> Really? Destruction of personal property or throwing food at someone is
>> okay with you?
>
> I didn't say it was ok. It is just not odd behavior for a young child
> though. Kids do all sorts of stuff and their parents/caregivers are
> the ones who are supposed to rein them in if they get out of hand.
> That is how a child is trained. Puppies, too.

So they could benefit from crate training?

In article >, gravesend10
@verizon.net says...
>
> MaryL
> >
> > The only time I've been on an airplane with a crying baby,
>
> When people with infants/todlers book a flight they should be made to
> ride in a carrier cage in the cargo hold with pets, or in an exterior
> pod.

It's my experience that badly behaved children (and adults) are more
common on short haul flights.

I've made very long haul flights where the babies and toddlers on board
were no trouble at all to other passengers. That might reflect on the
kind of confident, relaxed parents who would even think of long distance
travel with tinies; or the effort flight staff put in to seating them
appropriately for a long flight.

Janet UK

On 7/28/2015 10:45 AM, graham wrote:

> Non-fiction books from the public library are similarly marked.
> Mind you, I am often tempted to correct grammatical errors but that
> would reduce me to the level of the book vandals.
>

I sometimes insert a Post-It note.

On 28/07/2015 9:29 AM, S Viemeister wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 10:45 AM, graham wrote:
>
>> Non-fiction books from the public library are similarly marked.
>> Mind you, I am often tempted to correct grammatical errors but that
>> would reduce me to the level of the book vandals.
>>
>
> I sometimes insert a Post-It note.
>
Yes, I have done that! I bought an Alice Munro book to read on the plane
a few months ago. Even she is not immune!
Graham
--
"You can't buy happiness, but you can buy wine,
which is kind of the same thing".

"graham" > wrote in message
...
> On 28/07/2015 9:29 AM, S Viemeister wrote:
>> On 7/28/2015 10:45 AM, graham wrote:
>>
>>> Non-fiction books from the public library are similarly marked.
>>> Mind you, I am often tempted to correct grammatical errors but that
>>> would reduce me to the level of the book vandals.
>>>
>>
>> I sometimes insert a Post-It note.
>>
> Yes, I have done that! I bought an Alice Munro book to read on the plane a
> few months ago. Even she is not immune!

Her proof reader needs a rap over the knuckles.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:12:23 -0600, Sal Paradise > wrote:

>On 7/28/2015 8:54 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:49:16 -0400, jmcquown >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 7/28/2015 9:21 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:42:22 -0400, jmcquown >

>>>>
>>> Really? Destruction of personal property or throwing food at someone is
>>> okay with you?
>>
>> I didn't say it was ok. It is just not odd behavior for a young child
>> though. Kids do all sorts of stuff and their parents/caregivers are
>> the ones who are supposed to rein them in if they get out of hand.
>> That is how a child is trained. Puppies, too.
>
>So they could benefit from crate training?

Ever seen a crib or playpen?

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 7:33:26 AM UTC-7, MaryL wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 6:42 AM, jmcquown wrote:
> > On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
> >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She brought
> >>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
> >>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
> >>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
> >>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She was
> >>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
> >>>
> >> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
> >> long in the tooth.
> >>
> >>
> > I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
> > book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
> > I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
> > She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
> > than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
> > and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
> > ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
> > had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
> > Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
> > the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
> >
> > Jill
>
> And parents who permit their toddlers to do that end up with adults who
> feel enabled. I once loaned one of my textbooks to one of my students
> because I noticed him sitting in class without a book. He claimed that
> he could not afford a book. That was believable--the books cost well in
> excess of $100.00, even though I tried to limit the cost by selecting
> books that could be used for two semesters instead of only one. The
> book was in mint condition when he received it. When he returned it, he
> had marked throughout the book. Granted, I marked books when I was a
> student, but I never marked books on any other occasion. The only good
> thing about it was that it did show he was studying, but it showed
> complete lack of appreciation for someone else's property.

In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
prevents me from writing in a book to this day.

> wrote in message
...
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 7:33:26 AM UTC-7, MaryL wrote:
>> On 7/28/2015 6:42 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>> > On 7/27/2015 8:54 PM, sf wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 27 Jul 2015 19:14:47 -0400, jmcquown >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> When I was in my 20's I had a friend who had a 2 year old. She
>> >>> brought
>> >>> her adorable child to my home one day. The "adorable child" started
>> >>> pulling books out of my bookcase and tearing pages out of them. Her
>> >>> mother blithely ignored her. I yelled at the girl. "STOP THAT!" My
>> >>> friend had the nerve to get angry at me for yelling at her kid. She
>> >>> was
>> >>> destroying my books. Would you have put up with that?
>> >>>
>> >> Is that the only child horror story you can trot out? It's getting
>> >> long in the tooth.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>> > book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and
>> > crayons.
>> > I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>> > She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me.
>> > Rather
>> > than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>> > and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>> > ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant
>> > and
>> > had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>> > Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>> > the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>> >
>> > Jill
>>
>> And parents who permit their toddlers to do that end up with adults who
>> feel enabled. I once loaned one of my textbooks to one of my students
>> because I noticed him sitting in class without a book. He claimed that
>> he could not afford a book. That was believable--the books cost well in
>> excess of $100.00, even though I tried to limit the cost by selecting
>> books that could be used for two semesters instead of only one. The
>> book was in mint condition when he received it. When he returned it, he
>> had marked throughout the book. Granted, I marked books when I was a
>> student, but I never marked books on any other occasion. The only good
>> thing about it was that it did show he was studying, but it showed
>> complete lack of appreciation for someone else's property.
>
> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
> training
> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.

Hey! Same here! Are you a Brit?



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

In article >,
says...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
> >> >book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
> >> > I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
> >> > She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
> >> >than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
> >> >and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
> >> >ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
> >> >had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
> >> >Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
> >> >the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
> >> >
> >> >Jill
> >>
> >> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
> >
> > I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
> >
> > Janet UK
>
> I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
> and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.
>
> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues?

Of course not. But a child who had enough co-ordination to repeatedly
dip a fry in sauce, throw it across the table and repeatedly hit the
target;or, kick the back of other peoples chairs, clearly is NOT a baby.
He's big and old enough to have a clue about acceptable behaviour to
adults.

Many times kids just find somethign to get into and no
> one could have predicted it would have happened. (A FOAF's kid once
> emptied an entire container of baby powder all over the living room to
> mimic the snow coming down outside.

You should have seen what my 2 yr olds did with a 25 lb sack of flour.
Or, with a pound of soft spread. Or the time they flushed oranges down
the lavatory until it blocked. Or drew patterns on the baby with a felt
tip. But unlike the child in Jills example, they instantly stopped when
told, understood they were never to repeat that misbehaviour again, and
didnt. That's the difference between kid mischief and deliberate
repeated naughtiness as Jill described.

> Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc,

A sick scared tired child should be taken home.


Janet.

On 7/28/2015 12:05 PM, wrote:

> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.

Ditto to all that. I wonder if kids still use brown paper bags
to make covers. Probably not. Severe punishment ensued if you
didn't cover the books or, heaven forbid, wrote in one. Between
that and working at the public library part time all through
high school, it goes against the grain to write in books. I might
write a change in a cookbook but that's about it.

Bugs me that people clearly think nothing of dogearing pages in
library books. It's not your personal property, people.

nancy

On 7/28/2015 11:05 AM, wrote:

> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>
Same here! I remember making book covers out of paper bags or wrapping
paper. (And I'm not a Brit, to answer the follow-up question. I grew
up in northeast Ohio.)

MaryL

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:23:46 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>> >> >book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
>> >> > I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>> >> > She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>> >> >than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>> >> >and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>> >> >ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
>> >> >had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>> >> >Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>> >> >the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>> >> >
>> >> >Jill
>> >>
>> >> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>> >
>> > I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
>> >
>> > Janet UK
>>
>> I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
>> and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.
>>
>> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues?
>
> Of course not. But a child who had enough co-ordination to repeatedly
>dip a fry in sauce, throw it across the table and repeatedly hit the
>target;or, kick the back of other peoples chairs, clearly is NOT a baby.
>He's big and old enough to have a clue about acceptable behaviour to
>adults.

Ever see kids play together? Ever see kids play WITH Adults? Kids to
not have perfect judgment and they sure as hell do not have perfect
behavior. Talk to a teacher sometime and find out what kids do.Kids
will try to get away with all sorts of stuff. So will adults. You can
talk to a parole officer about the adult part..

The portions of the brain that are responsible for judging risk do not
mature until after adolescence. Kids will try lots of things. Frankly,
so will adults. I do not know any 8 year olds who can rival even the
simplest episode of a "Jackass" movie. There is no reason why kids
should be held to standards more strictly than are adults.

This whole discussion is of the sort where one thinks one is psychic
because the phone rings and X in on the line, just as X has been in
one's thoughts.

No one recalls the benign behavior of kids *or* adults. It is just
background. It is only when there is off behavior that suddenly it
becomes the bee-all and end-all.

Meh.

> Many times kids just find somethign to get into and no
>> one could have predicted it would have happened. (A FOAF's kid once
>> emptied an entire container of baby powder all over the living room to
>> mimic the snow coming down outside.
>
> You should have seen what my 2 yr olds did with a 25 lb sack of flour.
>Or, with a pound of soft spread. Or the time they flushed oranges down
>the lavatory until it blocked. Or drew patterns on the baby with a felt
>tip. But unlike the child in Jills example, they instantly stopped when
>told, understood they were never to repeat that misbehaviour again, and
>didnt. That's the difference between kid mischief and deliberate
>repeated naughtiness as Jill described.

Nah, there were 6 boys across 3 house in my neighborhood...you should
have seem the ****ing contests. Real ones.

Again, "repeated naughtiness" in front of the caregiver is the
caregiver's fault.

Who gets blamed when the hundred lb doggie jumps up on Auntie for the
umpteenth time?

>
>> Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc,
>
>A sick scared tired child should be taken home.

Try it at 30k feet on a plane. Get back to me with how that works out.

On 7/28/2015 9:40 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:12:23 -0600, Sal Paradise > wrote:
>
>> On 7/28/2015 8:54 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 09:49:16 -0400, jmcquown >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/28/2015 9:21 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 07:42:22 -0400, jmcquown >
>
>>>>>
>>>> Really? Destruction of personal property or throwing food at someone is
>>>> okay with you?
>>>
>>> I didn't say it was ok. It is just not odd behavior for a young child
>>> though. Kids do all sorts of stuff and their parents/caregivers are
>>> the ones who are supposed to rein them in if they get out of hand.
>>> That is how a child is trained. Puppies, too.
>>
>> So they could benefit from crate training?
>
> Ever seen a crib or playpen?

Ever ponder what the commonality is between the crate and a papoose?

Dogs need small caves to learn not to defecate within their greater
human domicile.

Babies stew in their diapers all day whilst the crate provides a small
prison so parents can get some time not hands-on 24/7.

Feel free to expound.

"MaryL" > wrote in message
...
> On 7/28/2015 11:05 AM, wrote:
>
>> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
>> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to
>> prevent
>> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
>> training
>> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>>
> Same here! I remember making book covers out of paper bags or wrapping
> paper. (And I'm not a Brit, to answer the follow-up question. I grew up
> in northeast Ohio.)

It was the grammar school thing I was asking about.


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http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 7/28/2015 10:33 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 12:05 PM, wrote:
>
>> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
>> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to
>> prevent
>> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
>> training
>> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>
> Ditto to all that. I wonder if kids still use brown paper bags
> to make covers. Probably not. Severe punishment ensued if you
> didn't cover the books or, heaven forbid, wrote in one. Between
> that and working at the public library part time all through
> high school, it goes against the grain to write in books. I might
> write a change in a cookbook but that's about it.
>
> Bugs me that people clearly think nothing of dogearing pages in
> library books. It's not your personal property, people.
>
> nancy
>

Libraries used to hand out place markers, or ask you use the card as such.

No more?

On 7/28/2015 10:42 AM, MaryL wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 11:05 AM, wrote:
>
>> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
>> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to
>> prevent
>> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
>> training
>> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>>
> Same here! I remember making book covers out of paper bags or wrapping
> paper. (And I'm not a Brit, to answer the follow-up question. I grew
> up in northeast Ohio.)
>
> MaryL
>

We made Unicef Halloween coin catchers from empty lunch milk cartons.

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 10:22:08 AM UTC-4, jmcquown wrote:

> I accept that. I had chronic ear infections when I was a kid. Painful!
> Then again, I wasn't flying all over the place as an infant. It
> simply wouldn't have been the first thing I thought of. Pardon moi

It's really a different world. Airfare is so much cheaper, families
are so much more spread out, and children are included in adult
activities so much more.

Bringing this back to the original topic:
eating in restaurants used to be a very special thing, once or
twice a year when I was a child. I wasn't taken to restaurants
until I could sit still and be quiet; we got dressed up and
I was on my best behavior. (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)

Cindy Hamilton

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:05:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:

> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.

So were we, although I am capable of writing in my own books, as needed.
If I couldn't write in my cookbooks, it'd be a sorry state of affairs.

Cindy Hamilton

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:

> Libraries used to hand out place markers, or ask you use the card as such.
>
> No more?

Card? I haven't seen a card in a library book in 25 or 30 years. It's
all computerized now.

Cindy Hamilton

On 7/28/2015 11:03 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 10:22:08 AM UTC-4, jmcquown wrote:
>
>> I accept that. I had chronic ear infections when I was a kid. Painful!
>> Then again, I wasn't flying all over the place as an infant. It
>> simply wouldn't have been the first thing I thought of. Pardon moi
>
> It's really a different world. Airfare is so much cheaper, families
> are so much more spread out, and children are included in adult
> activities so much more.
>
> Bringing this back to the original topic:
> eating in restaurants used to be a very special thing, once or
> twice a year when I was a child. I wasn't taken to restaurants
> until I could sit still and be quiet; we got dressed up and
> I was on my best behavior. (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
> and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
> chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>


Um...how did your Dad feel about all that chatting?

On 7/28/2015 11:14 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>
>> Libraries used to hand out place markers, or ask you use the card as such.
>>
>> No more?
>
> Card? I haven't seen a card in a library book in 25 or 30 years. It's
> all computerized now.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

Sigh...I used to love watching mine get photocopied with that big old
machine.

Never paid a penny in fines, ever.

"Cindy Hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 10:22:08 AM UTC-4, jmcquown wrote:
>
>> I accept that. I had chronic ear infections when I was a kid. Painful!
>> Then again, I wasn't flying all over the place as an infant. It
>> simply wouldn't have been the first thing I thought of. Pardon moi
>
> It's really a different world. Airfare is so much cheaper, families
> are so much more spread out, and children are included in adult
> activities so much more.
>
> Bringing this back to the original topic:
> eating in restaurants used to be a very special thing, once or
> twice a year when I was a child. I wasn't taken to restaurants
> until I could sit still and be quiet; we got dressed up and
> I was on my best behavior. (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
> and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
> chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)

LOL what a little nightmare))


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On 7/28/2015 2:40 AM, Sky wrote:

>
> IMNSHO, if children are appropriately behaved, sure, they can and should
> accompany their parents to any restaurant. BUT! Big, but!! If the
> child(ren) is(are) unhappy(!!) and/or misbehaves, then the parents
> should be obligated to take their child(ren) to another 'arena' (the
> restroom? outside?) until their child's attitude is better suited to the
> 'atmosphere' of the situation --- I hope this makes sense. In no way
> did I allow (my) child to disturb any other diners' experiences while at
> any restaurant.

That is exactly correct. Kids can act up at times and it is the parents
job to step in and correct it if it does happen.

I don't mind kids at a restaurant if they behave. Same with airplanes.
Properly raised, kids know when to behave and when they can let loose.

I have two grandkids that often go to restaurants and I'd not hesitate
to take them to the fanciest of places. They don't order off the kids
menu either, they want the real deal.

I have two other grandkids that I'd hesitate to take to McDonald's.

The difference is the parents.

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 2:04:20 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 2:40 AM, Sky wrote:
>
> That is exactly correct. Kids can act up at times and it is the parents
> job to step in and correct it if it does happen.
>
> I don't mind kids at a restaurant if they behave. Same with airplanes.
> Properly raised, kids know when to behave and when they can let loose.
>
> I have two grandkids that often go to restaurants and I'd not hesitate
> to take them to the fanciest of places. They don't order off the kids
> menu either, they want the real deal.
>
> I have two other grandkids that I'd hesitate to take to McDonald's.
>
> The difference is the parents.

Wow, has nobody here ever met a problem child? There are some children that are just impossible to control. Has no-one ever felt sorry for the poor parents?

http://www.richardfisher.com

On 7/28/2015 7:32 AM, wrote:

>>
>> Maybe you can find an airline that doesn't take people under 50 to fly
>> on.
>
> Better yet, an airline that asks parents to take charge of their
> progeny.
>

Back in the mid 1970s first Delta, then some other airlines had a "kids
fly free" promotion. We took advantage of it and flew to California to
visit my brother. About half of the 747 was kids of all ages. It was
like a school trip, only airborne. The flight crew did not seem to be
enjoying it so much.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 10:22:08 AM UTC-4, jmcquown wrote:
>
>> I accept that. I had chronic ear infections when I was a kid. Painful!
>> Then again, I wasn't flying all over the place as an infant. It
>> simply wouldn't have been the first thing I thought of. Pardon moi
>
> It's really a different world. Airfare is so much cheaper, families
> are so much more spread out, and children are included in adult
> activities so much more.
>
> Bringing this back to the original topic:
> eating in restaurants used to be a very special thing, once or
> twice a year when I was a child. I wasn't taken to restaurants
> until I could sit still and be quiet; we got dressed up and
> I was on my best behavior. (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
> and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
> chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
>
> Cindy Hamilton

It is a different world -- my first memory of going to a restaurant is
when my mom had her gallbladder removed and my dad took my sister and me
out rather than feed us more sandwiches. I had a hamburger and fries and
they tasted really good. It definitely wasn't a fancy place.

We've taken our kids out ever since they were infants and aside from a
couple of instances of tired crabbiness they've been great. We were at
a nice place (Palisade) one time when A. dropped his spoon on the floor,
and said to a gentleman at the next table, "gampa! gampa! I dopped my
poon!" At that age he wasn't so great with consonant blends, and oh yeah
any man with grey hair was "gampa". I thought it was really cute but
gampa just ignored him.

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 3:09:54 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:30:00 -0700 (PDT), Helpful person
wrote:
>
> >On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 2:04:20 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> >> On 7/28/2015 2:40 AM, Sky wrote:
> >>
> >> That is exactly correct. Kids can act up at times and it is the parents
> >> job to step in and correct it if it does happen.
> >>
> >> I don't mind kids at a restaurant if they behave. Same with airplanes..
> >> Properly raised, kids know when to behave and when they can let loose.
> >>
> >> I have two grandkids that often go to restaurants and I'd not hesitate
> >> to take them to the fanciest of places. They don't order off the kids
> >> menu either, they want the real deal.
> >>
> >> I have two other grandkids that I'd hesitate to take to McDonald's.
> >>
> >> The difference is the parents.
> >
> >Wow, has nobody here ever met a problem child? There are some children that are just impossible to control. Has no-one ever felt sorry for the poor parents?
> >
> >http://www.richardfisher.com
>
> Most of the kids we are talking about are not children with problems,
> well other than their parents who have not troubled to socialise them.
> I can feel desperately sorry for parents of an Aspergers or Autistic
> child and would do anything to help, but they don't generally stress
> themselves by taking the children to unsuitable venues. So lets not
> be blaming them.
>
There are many different personalities amongst children, some of which used to be called highly strung. These are kids that usually turn out normal but are extremely impulsive. It is these kids that I refer to. Impulsive behavior is almost impossible to control. it is also impossible to determine when it will be manifested,

http://www.richardfisher.com

On 7/28/2015 11:08 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:

>>>> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>>>> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>>>> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>>>> and over. Of course he didn't.
>>>> Jill
>>>
>>> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>>
>> I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
>>
>> Janet UK
>
> I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
> and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.
>
> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues? They
> will experiment with anything and everything in sight. That is why
> homes are child-proofed and kids are watched. If they are not watched
> or minded by their caregivers pretty damn every second, then at some
> point, mayhem will ensue.

Key words he "over and over"

Yes, the kid may do it once, but if he does it again, it is 100% the
parents fault and inexcusable. The kid should have been dealt with.

I'm not sure shy Jill let it happen a second time too, but I don't know
the entire scenario.

"tert in seattle" > wrote in message
...
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 10:22:08 AM UTC-4, jmcquown wrote:
>>
>>> I accept that. I had chronic ear infections when I was a kid. Painful!
>>> Then again, I wasn't flying all over the place as an infant. It
>>> simply wouldn't have been the first thing I thought of. Pardon moi
>>
>> It's really a different world. Airfare is so much cheaper, families
>> are so much more spread out, and children are included in adult
>> activities so much more.
>>
>> Bringing this back to the original topic:
>> eating in restaurants used to be a very special thing, once or
>> twice a year when I was a child. I wasn't taken to restaurants
>> until I could sit still and be quiet; we got dressed up and
>> I was on my best behavior. (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
>> and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
>> chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>
> It is a different world -- my first memory of going to a restaurant is
> when my mom had her gallbladder removed and my dad took my sister and me
> out rather than feed us more sandwiches. I had a hamburger and fries and
> they tasted really good. It definitely wasn't a fancy place.
>
> We've taken our kids out ever since they were infants and aside from a
> couple of instances of tired crabbiness they've been great. We were at
> a nice place (Palisade) one time when A. dropped his spoon on the floor,
> and said to a gentleman at the next table, "gampa! gampa! I dopped my
> poon!" At that age he wasn't so great with consonant blends, and oh yeah
> any man with grey hair was "gampa". I thought it was really cute but
> gampa just ignored him.

Awww miserable devil! I would have loved it




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