On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 15:22:57 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 7/28/2015 11:08 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>>>>> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>>>>> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>>>>> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>>>>> and over. Of course he didn't.
>>>>> Jill
>>>>
>>>> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>>>
>>> I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
>>>
>>> Janet UK
>>
>> I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
>> and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.
>>
>> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues? They
>> will experiment with anything and everything in sight. That is why
>> homes are child-proofed and kids are watched. If they are not watched
>> or minded by their caregivers pretty damn every second, then at some
>> point, mayhem will ensue.
>
>Key words he "over and over"
>
>Yes, the kid may do it once, but if he does it again, it is 100% the
>parents fault and inexcusable. The kid should have been dealt with.

That is what I said...kids need to be watched. This isn't passive
viewing.
>
>I'm not sure shy Jill let it happen a second time too, but I don't know
>the entire scenario.

Second time it could happen. 3rd time I would have returned fire at
the parent.

On 7/28/2015 2:30 PM, Helpful person wrote:

>> I have two other grandkids that I'd hesitate to take to McDonald's.
>>
>> The difference is the parents.
>
> Wow, has nobody here ever met a problem child? There are some children that are just impossible to control. Has no-one ever felt sorry for the poor parents?
>
> http://www.richardfisher.com
>

Yes, I've met many a problem child, but most parents don't take them to
restaurants. Take the kid to a park where they can blow off some
energy, not to a restaurant to disturb others. If you do, I won't feel
sorry for you at all.

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 1:28:26 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 11:03 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
> > and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
> > chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
>
>
> Um...how did your Dad feel about all that chatting?

Irrelevant, since I was born out of wedlock. I've never met
the fellow, although my mother told me fairly recently
that he was marrying wife #4. She's a little smug about
saying "no" when he offered to divorce wife #1 and marry
her.

Single motherhood was not invented recently.

Cindy Hamilton

On 7/28/2015 1:56 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 1:28:26 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>> On 7/28/2015 11:03 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>> (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
>>> and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
>>> chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
>>>
>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>
>>
>>
>> Um...how did your Dad feel about all that chatting?
>
> Irrelevant, since I was born out of wedlock.

Right then, I had to ask.

> I've never met
> the fellow, although my mother told me fairly recently
> that he was marrying wife #4. She's a little smug about
> saying "no" when he offered to divorce wife #1 and marry
> her.

As well she might be!

> Single motherhood was not invented recently.
>
> Cindy Hamilton

That it wasn't, sorry if my question was intrusive.

On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 4:02:04 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 1:56 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 1:28:26 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
> >> On 7/28/2015 11:03 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >>> (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
> >>> and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
> >>> chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
> >>>
> >>> Cindy Hamilton
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Um...how did your Dad feel about all that chatting?
> >
> > Irrelevant, since I was born out of wedlock.
>
> Right then, I had to ask.
>
> > I've never met
> > the fellow, although my mother told me fairly recently
> > that he was marrying wife #4. She's a little smug about
> > saying "no" when he offered to divorce wife #1 and marry
> > her.
>
> As well she might be!
>
> > Single motherhood was not invented recently.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
>
> That it wasn't, sorry if my question was intrusive.

No problem. If I felt it was intrusive, I would have
said so, or dodged the question, or lied.

I'm not responsible for the circumstances of my birth,
and my mother worked very hard to give me a good upbringing.

If the Pill had been available in 1956, I probably wouldn't
be here to have this conversation.

Cindy Hamilton

On 7/28/2015 3:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 11:08 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>>>>> I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch
>>>>> break.
>>>>> She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me.
>>>>> Rather
>>>>> than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit"
>>>>> over
>>>>> and over. Of course he didn't.
>>>>> Jill
>>>>
>>>> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>>>
>>> I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
>>>
>>> Janet UK
>>
>> I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
>> and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.
>>
>> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues? They
>> will experiment with anything and everything in sight. That is why
>> homes are child-proofed and kids are watched. If they are not watched
>> or minded by their caregivers pretty damn every second, then at some
>> point, mayhem will ensue.
>
> Key words he "over and over"
>
> Yes, the kid may do it once, but if he does it again, it is 100% the
> parents fault and inexcusable. The kid should have been dealt with.
>
> I'm not sure shy Jill let it happen a second time too, but I don't know
> the entire scenario.
>
>
In the situation where the little boy (he was about 3) was throwing
ketchup dipped fries at me, we were in a restaurant (nope, it wasn't
McDonald's) so I didn't want to cause a scene. I was also only about 20
years old at the time so I was not at all sure what to do about her kid
throwing food at me.

OB Food: if he'd dipped them in mayo the stains on my blouse wouldn't
have been so obvious.

Jill

On 7/28/2015 2:10 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 4:02:04 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>> On 7/28/2015 1:56 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 1:28:26 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>>>> On 7/28/2015 11:03 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>>>> (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
>>>>> and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
>>>>> chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Um...how did your Dad feel about all that chatting?
>>>
>>> Irrelevant, since I was born out of wedlock.
>>
>> Right then, I had to ask.
>>
>>> I've never met
>>> the fellow, although my mother told me fairly recently
>>> that he was marrying wife #4. She's a little smug about
>>> saying "no" when he offered to divorce wife #1 and marry
>>> her.
>>
>> As well she might be!
>>
>>> Single motherhood was not invented recently.
>>>
>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>
>> That it wasn't, sorry if my question was intrusive.
>
> No problem. If I felt it was intrusive, I would have
> said so, or dodged the question, or lied.

Fair enough, thanks for not doing those then.

> I'm not responsible for the circumstances of my birth,
> and my mother worked very hard to give me a good upbringing.
>
> If the Pill had been available in 1956, I probably wouldn't
> be here to have this conversation.
>
> Cindy Hamilton

Oh don't say that, there are more than a few ways down the Malkovitch
portal you know ;-)

On 2015-07-28, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> Yes, the kid may do it once, but if he does it again, it is 100% the
> parents fault and inexcusable. The kid should have been dealt with.
>
> I'm not sure shy Jill let it happen a second time too, but I don't know
> the entire scenario.

Kids do not come with an user's manual, so many parents have little or
no clue about how to go about raising one. Perhaps those parents were
raised w/ very little discipline, themselves. Some ppl have kids when
they are older and wiser and able to out-think the child.
Unfortunately, many parents are still almost children, themselves. I
guess what I'm trying to say is, not every parent is born with inate
knowledge of how to raise a kid. This is not to excuse badly behaved
kids, but all too often there is a more than enough reasons for a
kid's bad behavior.

I see a lotta ppl, here, talking about how parents do not properly
disciplining their kids. What happens, these days, if they do? When we
were young parents and our kid was about 7-8 yrs old, a neighbor's
daughter wondered off and walked a mile into town. Took the entire
community to locate her and return her home. The single mother then
proceded to give her daughter a "whuppin". Five mins later, the same
mothers and fathers that had participated in the search hadda rescue
the mother from the back of a squad car cuz one new mother had ratted
her out to the cops and they were arresting her for child abuse.
Fortunately, all turned out OK and the mother was released.

I jes finished watching a documentary, Kids For Cash. It was revealed
one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and the parent went
ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys, press, etc. I
couldn't help but wonder how much her own behavior had contributed to
her child's former problems.

nb

On 2015-07-28, jmcquown > wrote:

> I was also only about 20 years old at the time so I was not at all
> sure what to do about her kid throwing food at me.

For future reference, throw 'em back!!

Yes. Put even more ketchup on 'em and throw 'em back at the kid, only
throw 'em really hard (avoid the face). Either the kid will stop or
the parent will freak out. Better yet, throw 'em at the parent.
Either way, both will learn you refuse to be targeted by an unruly
kid.

nb

"Cindy Hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 1:28:26 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>> On 7/28/2015 11:03 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> > (I was a cute, precocious little girl,
>> > and I made a perfect excuses for men to come over to the table to
>> > chat up my mother. Win-win for everybody.)
>> >
>> > Cindy Hamilton
>> >
>>
>>
>> Um...how did your Dad feel about all that chatting?
>
> Irrelevant, since I was born out of wedlock. I've never met
> the fellow, although my mother told me fairly recently
> that he was marrying wife #4. She's a little smug about
> saying "no" when he offered to divorce wife #1 and marry
> her.

I'll bet


> Single motherhood was not invented recently.

True!

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

In article >,
says...
>
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:05:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> > three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> > their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
> > prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>
> So were we, although I am capable of writing in my own books, as needed.
> If I couldn't write in my cookbooks, it'd be a sorry state of affairs.

When it comes to writing in books, my own cookbooks are the only ones
I make an exception for. Where very many recipes I've tried have notes
in the margin, reminders about which baking dish the recipe fits in, or
a temperature adjustment for my own oven, or my own amendments to the
recipe or method.

Janet UK

On 2015-07-28 9:52 AM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

> I never allowed my daughter or any child to disturb dinner at home...
> never had to say anything either, just gave 'that' look. Children who
> act up at eateries it's because there's no control at home. When
> children are raised like feral beasts that's how they behave all the
> time... I never blame the child, I blame their zoo keeper.
>


That may have something to do with why people would go whining to social
media when they are confronted with the bad behaviour of their children.
They like to whine about how the big bad server or restaurant owner
accosted their kid verbally, but what they are really upset with is
having to face the fact that their kid misbehaved because they screwed
up as parents.

Recent incidents that have hit social media were not little things like
a baby crying for a moment, or a child uttering a sentence too loud.
They have been incidents where kids have carried out outrageously and
the parents did nothing to curb it.

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:10:57 +0100, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

>
>
> > wrote in message
> >
> > In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> > three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> > their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
> > training
> > prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>
> Hey! Same here! Are you a Brit?

We don't have to be a Brit or even Catholic to have that background
experience.

--

sf

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:11:10 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:05:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>
> > In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> > three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> > their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
> > prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>
> So were we, although I am capable of writing in my own books, as needed.
> If I couldn't write in my cookbooks, it'd be a sorry state of affairs.
>
That's what my computer is for.

--

sf

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:10:57 +0100, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > wrote in message
>> >
>> > In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got
>> > between
>> > three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to
>> > prevent
>> > their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
>> > training
>> > prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>>
>> Hey! Same here! Are you a Brit?
>
> We don't have to be a Brit or even Catholic to have that background
> experience.

Our schools never had enough books. The only book I remember getting to
take home was a math book. Other than that, the books were kept at school
and shared between 2 or 3 of us. Always drove me nuts because I was a very
fast reader and always got paired up with a slow reader.

On 2015-07-28 10:54 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>
>> Really? Destruction of personal property or throwing food at someone is
>> okay with you?
>
> I didn't say it was ok. It is just not odd behavior for a young child
> though. Kids do all sorts of stuff and their parents/caregivers are
> the ones who are supposed to rein them in if they get out of hand.
> That is how a child is trained. Puppies, too.

I would say that it is odd and unacceptable behaviour for a child. I
have to admit that there were s couple occasions when my brothers and I
threw food at each other. We were scolded for it. I sure as hell would
never even have thought of throwing food at an adult. I would not throw
it at adult family member and most certainly not at a friend of my mother.

Parents are indeed tasked with the responsibility to ensure their kids
do not do thinks like that. Some people tolerate it... like Jill's
(former) friend.

On 2015-07-28 11:08 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:

>
> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues? They
> will experiment with anything and everything in sight. That is why
> homes are child-proofed and kids are watched. If they are not watched
> or minded by their caregivers pretty damn every second, then at some
> point, mayhem will ensue.

Thanks for the reasons that some kids should not be taken into public
situations.

On 2015-07-28 12:42 PM, MaryL wrote:

> Same here! I remember making book covers out of paper bags or wrapping
> paper. (And I'm not a Brit, to answer the follow-up question. I grew
> up in northeast Ohio.)
>


We did too, but our groceries used to be packed in brown paper bags. I
only know one store that still uses them.

On 2015-07-28 1:14 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>
>> Libraries used to hand out place markers, or ask you use the card as such.
>>
>> No more?
>
> Card? I haven't seen a card in a library book in 25 or 30 years. It's
> all computerized now.
>
>

I don't know if it is quite that long, but the card did not come home
with the book. It stayed at the library so they knew you had the book.

I have to wonder which system was better. I get email notices if books
or DVDs are due, but I have also had notices about books due that I
never took out or that I had never taken out. I have tried to renew
books online that the system said I did not have.

On 7/28/2015 6:00 PM, Janet wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:05:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
>>
>>> In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
>>> three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
>>> their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
>>> prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>>
>> So were we, although I am capable of writing in my own books, as needed.
>> If I couldn't write in my cookbooks, it'd be a sorry state of affairs.
>
> When it comes to writing in books, my own cookbooks are the only ones
> I make an exception for. Where very many recipes I've tried have notes
> in the margin, reminders about which baking dish the recipe fits in, or
> a temperature adjustment for my own oven, or my own amendments to the
> recipe or method.
>
> Janet UK
>
I bought a couple of old cookbooks at a second hand store and appreciate
the former owner's little notes written in the margins. I also found a
couple of folded up hand-written recipes on note paper in another used
old cookbook I bought. Lagniappe!

Jill

On 28 Jul 2015 20:30:34 GMT, notbob > wrote:

>On 2015-07-28, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> Yes, the kid may do it once, but if he does it again, it is 100% the
>> parents fault and inexcusable. The kid should have been dealt with.
>>
>> I'm not sure shy Jill let it happen a second time too, but I don't know
>> the entire scenario.
>
>Kids do not come with an user's manual, so many parents have little or
>no clue about how to go about raising one. Perhaps those parents were
>raised w/ very little discipline, themselves. Some ppl have kids when
>they are older and wiser and able to out-think the child.
>Unfortunately, many parents are still almost children, themselves. I
>guess what I'm trying to say is, not every parent is born with inate
>knowledge of how to raise a kid. This is not to excuse badly behaved
>kids, but all too often there is a more than enough reasons for a
>kid's bad behavior.
>
>I see a lotta ppl, here, talking about how parents do not properly
>disciplining their kids. What happens, these days, if they do? When we
>were young parents and our kid was about 7-8 yrs old, a neighbor's
>daughter wondered off and walked a mile into town. Took the entire
>community to locate her and return her home. The single mother then
>proceded to give her daughter a "whuppin". Five mins later, the same
>mothers and fathers that had participated in the search hadda rescue
>the mother from the back of a squad car cuz one new mother had ratted
>her out to the cops and they were arresting her for child abuse.
>Fortunately, all turned out OK and the mother was released.
>
>I jes finished watching a documentary, Kids For Cash. It was revealed
>one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and the parent went
>ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys, press, etc. I
>couldn't help but wonder how much her own behavior had contributed to
>her child's former problems.
>
>nb


Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
believe in nature, not nurture.

On 2015-07-28, Dave Smith > wrote:

> We did too, but our groceries used to be packed in brown paper bags. I
> only know one store that still uses them.

Look a little harder. Stprmkts and box stores remain w/ plastic, but
many liquor stores and mini-marts are going back to paper. Paper is
biodegradable and a renewable resource. Plastic bags are neither.

nb

In article >,
says...
>
> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>
> > Libraries used to hand out place markers, or ask you use the card as such.
> >
> > No more?
>
> Card? I haven't seen a card in a library book in 25 or 30 years. It's
> all computerized now.

Ours gives away card book-marks ( hoping to save damage to books).
We have a plastic library ID card like a credit card, which is scanned
when we borrow a book or return it.

Janet UK

On 7/28/2015 5:13 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On 28 Jul 2015 20:30:34 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>
>> On 2015-07-28, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, the kid may do it once, but if he does it again, it is 100% the
>>> parents fault and inexcusable. The kid should have been dealt with.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure shy Jill let it happen a second time too, but I don't know
>>> the entire scenario.
>>
>> Kids do not come with an user's manual, so many parents have little or
>> no clue about how to go about raising one. Perhaps those parents were
>> raised w/ very little discipline, themselves. Some ppl have kids when
>> they are older and wiser and able to out-think the child.
>> Unfortunately, many parents are still almost children, themselves. I
>> guess what I'm trying to say is, not every parent is born with inate
>> knowledge of how to raise a kid. This is not to excuse badly behaved
>> kids, but all too often there is a more than enough reasons for a
>> kid's bad behavior.
>>
>> I see a lotta ppl, here, talking about how parents do not properly
>> disciplining their kids. What happens, these days, if they do? When we
>> were young parents and our kid was about 7-8 yrs old, a neighbor's
>> daughter wondered off and walked a mile into town. Took the entire
>> community to locate her and return her home. The single mother then
>> proceded to give her daughter a "whuppin". Five mins later, the same
>> mothers and fathers that had participated in the search hadda rescue
>> the mother from the back of a squad car cuz one new mother had ratted
>> her out to the cops and they were arresting her for child abuse.
>> Fortunately, all turned out OK and the mother was released.
>>
>> I jes finished watching a documentary, Kids For Cash. It was revealed
>> one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and the parent went
>> ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys, press, etc. I
>> couldn't help but wonder how much her own behavior had contributed to
>> her child's former problems.
>>
>> nb
>
>
> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
> believe in nature, not nurture.
>

"It was revealed one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and
the parent went ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys,
press, etc."


ALL of that is learned behavior, not genetics.

In article >,
says...
>
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:23:46 +0100, Janet > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> says...
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
> >> >> >book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
> >> >> > I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
> >> >> > She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
> >> >> >than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
> >> >> >and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
> >> >> >ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
> >> >> >had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
> >> >> >Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
> >> >> >the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Jill
> >> >>
> >> >> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
> >> >
> >> > I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
> >> >
> >> > Janet UK
> >>
> >> I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
> >> and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.
> >>
> >> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues?
> >
> > Of course not. But a child who had enough co-ordination to repeatedly
> >dip a fry in sauce, throw it across the table and repeatedly hit the
> >target;or, kick the back of other peoples chairs, clearly is NOT a baby.
> >He's big and old enough to have a clue about acceptable behaviour to
> >adults.
>
> Ever see kids play together? Ever see kids play WITH Adults? Kids to
> not have perfect judgment and they sure as hell do not have perfect
> behavior. Talk to a teacher sometime and find out what kids do

I was a teacher, (deprived areas of London and Glasgow, very useful
training for being a mother and grandmother.

From the day they could be propped up in a high chair and wave a spoon,
my children (and grandchildren) were socialised around the family table
at every mealtime. They'd got the hang of it by the time they graduated
out of bibs and non-spill beakers to big chairs, cutlery and napkins.

Janet UK

"Brooklyn1" > wrote in message

> I never allowed my daughter or any child to disturb dinner at home...
> never had to say anything either, just gave 'that' look. Children who
> act up at eateries it's because there's no control at home. When
> children are raised like feral beasts that's how they behave all the
> time... I never blame the child, I blame their zoo keeper.

Me either, and me too.

Cheri

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 18:16:24 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2015-07-28 11:08 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>
>>
>> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues? They
>> will experiment with anything and everything in sight. That is why
>> homes are child-proofed and kids are watched. If they are not watched
>> or minded by their caregivers pretty damn every second, then at some
>> point, mayhem will ensue.
>
>Thanks for the reasons that some kids should not be taken into public
>situations.
>


It would never have occurred to me not to consider such when my kids
were young and unpredictable.

There are places where kids do not belong. There are also places where
adults do not belong.

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:29:50 -0600, Sal Paradise > wrote:

>On 7/28/2015 5:13 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On 28 Jul 2015 20:30:34 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>

>>
>> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
>> believe in nature, not nurture.
>>
>
>"It was revealed one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and
>the parent went ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys,
>press, etc."
>
>
>ALL of that is learned behavior, not genetics.

Sorry, bub, you'll have to prove that to me.

Just as there are animals bred for particular characteristics and
behaviors, so humans, although not necessarily bred for it, are likely
to develop, too. This is not to say that behaviors cannot at all be
affected by learning and training, far from it, but genetics and
epigenetics play big parts in personality, action and reaction.

Go read up on a few twin studies and come back to talk. And that is
just a start.

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 01:08:53 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>>
>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:23:46 +0100, Janet > wrote:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> says...
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >I've got plenty of them, thanks. I loaned another friend a hardback
>> >> >> >book and she let her kid scribble all through it with a pen and crayons.
>> >> >> > I met a different friend for lunch one day - I was on my lunch break.
>> >> >> > She let her kid dip his fries in ketchup and throw them at me. Rather
>> >> >> >than take the fries away from him all she did was say "Gary, quit" over
>> >> >> >and over. Of course he didn't. I had to go back to work wearing a
>> >> >> >ketchup-stained blouse. I've been seated in a booth in a restaurant and
>> >> >> >had kids kicking the back of the seat on the side where I was sitting.
>> >> >> >Another instance, a kid throwing food over onto our table. As usual,
>> >> >> >the parents seem to think there is nothing wrong with this behavior.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Jill
>> >> >>
>> >> >> And there is little or nothing wrong with the kids' behavior.
>> >> >
>> >> > I can't believe you wrote that, or believe it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Janet UK
>> >>
>> >> I wrote it and you should believe it. Stop thinking in generalities
>> >> and tsk tsk finger wagging and face facts.
>> >>
>> >> Do you REALLY think that little kids sit around like statues?
>> >
>> > Of course not. But a child who had enough co-ordination to repeatedly
>> >dip a fry in sauce, throw it across the table and repeatedly hit the
>> >target;or, kick the back of other peoples chairs, clearly is NOT a baby.
>> >He's big and old enough to have a clue about acceptable behaviour to
>> >adults.
>>
>> Ever see kids play together? Ever see kids play WITH Adults? Kids to
>> not have perfect judgment and they sure as hell do not have perfect
>> behavior. Talk to a teacher sometime and find out what kids do
>
> I was a teacher, (deprived areas of London and Glasgow, very useful
>training for being a mother and grandmother.

And all the kids you saw were the same and perfectly behaved all the
time?
>
> From the day they could be propped up in a high chair and wave a spoon,
>my children (and grandchildren) were socialised around the family table
>at every mealtime. They'd got the hang of it by the time they graduated
>out of bibs and non-spill beakers to big chairs, cutlery and napkins.
>
> Janet UK


That doesn't indicate anything other than what happened in your
family. It is anecdotal.

On 7/28/2015 5:06 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>
> Recent incidents that have hit social media were not little things like
> a baby crying for a moment, or a child uttering a sentence too loud.
> They have been incidents where kids have carried out outrageously and
> the parents did nothing to curb it.

To this day (and I'm 63 years old) I'm still proud of the compliments
Mom & Dad used to get about their 3 "well behaved children." I heard
Mom tell her friends about the compliments and knowing how proud she was
made me feel that much better!

Since then I've tried to pass on those compliments to the
parents/caretakers of children I observe with those "acceptable" table
manners. There have been several occasions when I think my comments
have really made a parents' day.

--
DreadfulBitch

I'm not a complete idiot. Some parts are missing.

On 7/28/2015 8:50 PM, DreadfulBitch wrote:
> On 7/28/2015 5:06 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>> Recent incidents that have hit social media were not little things like
>> a baby crying for a moment, or a child uttering a sentence too loud.
>> They have been incidents where kids have carried out outrageously and
>> the parents did nothing to curb it.
>
> To this day (and I'm 63 years old) I'm still proud of the compliments
> Mom & Dad used to get about their 3 "well behaved children." I heard
> Mom tell her friends about the compliments and knowing how proud she was
> made me feel that much better!
>
> Since then I've tried to pass on those compliments to the
> parents/caretakers of children I observe with those "acceptable" table
> manners. There have been several occasions when I think my comments
> have really made a parents' day.
>
I have have a hard time believing anyone thinks misbehaving children are
a good idea.

We all know kids get cranky. That's not the same as being a parent who
simply ignores what they're doing.

Jill

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2015-07-28 10:54 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Really? Destruction of personal property or throwing food at someone is
>>> okay with you?
>>
>> I didn't say it was ok. It is just not odd behavior for a young child
>> though. Kids do all sorts of stuff and their parents/caregivers are
>> the ones who are supposed to rein them in if they get out of hand.
>> That is how a child is trained. Puppies, too.
>
> I would say that it is odd and unacceptable behaviour for a child. I have
> to admit that there were s couple occasions when my brothers and I threw
> food at each other. We were scolded for it. I sure as hell would never
> even have thought of throwing food at an adult. I would not throw it at
> adult family member and most certainly not at a friend of my mother.
>
> Parents are indeed tasked with the responsibility to ensure their kids do
> not do thinks like that. Some people tolerate it... like Jill's (former)
> friend.
>

I remember people telling me that I could no longer wear my earrings when
Angela was born. I always wore long or at least dangling ones. Well, not
only did I not ever have a problem with that, I had people tell me how
polite she was. She would sit in their laps and admire their jewelry. I
taught her right from the start that we could touch jewelry lightly and
admire how pretty it was. Sort of like petting a cat or a dog. We had to
touch them lightly.

This is one of the things that we learned in Jr. High Home Ec class. Teach
the child how to do things correctly instead of waiting for them to do the
wrong thing.

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2015-07-28 12:42 PM, MaryL wrote:
>
>> Same here! I remember making book covers out of paper bags or wrapping
>> paper. (And I'm not a Brit, to answer the follow-up question. I grew
>> up in northeast Ohio.)
>>
>
>
> We did too, but our groceries used to be packed in brown paper bags. I
> only know one store that still uses them.

Really? They are very common here. In some areas there is a ban on plastic
so they have to use paper.

On 7/28/2015 5:14 PM, Julie Bove wrote:
>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:10:57 +0100, "Ophelia" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > wrote in message
>>> >
>>> > In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got >
>>> between
>>> > three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to
>>> > prevent
>>> > their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
>>> > training
>>> > prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>>>
>>> Hey! Same here! Are you a Brit?
>>
>> We don't have to be a Brit or even Catholic to have that background
>> experience.
>
> Our schools never had enough books. The only book I remember getting to
> take home was a math book. Other than that, the books were kept at
> school and shared between 2 or 3 of us. Always drove me nuts because I
> was a very fast reader and always got paired up with a slow reader.

We always had enough homework so that I took books home at night.
Fortunately, each of us had our own books.

Following through on the theme of books in elementary and high school:
When we had new books (which was frequent), the teacher would go through
the process of having each of us gently "break in" the books by running
our fingers along the spine, a few pages at a time.

MaryL

"Dave Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2015-07-28 1:14 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:53:31 PM UTC-4, Sal Paradise wrote:
>>
>>> Libraries used to hand out place markers, or ask you use the card as
>>> such.
>>>
>>> No more?
>>
>> Card? I haven't seen a card in a library book in 25 or 30 years. It's
>> all computerized now.
>>
>>
>
> I don't know if it is quite that long, but the card did not come home with
> the book. It stayed at the library so they knew you had the book.
>
> I have to wonder which system was better. I get email notices if books or
> DVDs are due, but I have also had notices about books due that I never
> took out or that I had never taken out. I have tried to renew books online
> that the system said I did not have.

I have a library card. Looks like a credit card. Never used it.

On 2015-07-28 21:46, Julie Bove wrote:

> I remember people telling me that I could no longer wear my earrings
> when Angela was born. I always wore long or at least dangling ones.
> Well, not only did I not ever have a problem with that, I had people
> tell me how polite she was. She would sit in their laps and admire
> their jewelry. I taught her right from the start that we could touch
> jewelry lightly and admire how pretty it was. Sort of like petting a
> cat or a dog. We had to touch them lightly.
>

Damn. I cleaned up my filter last night and look what slipped in.

Yeah.. all those compliments about your daughter. This is the same
daughter that was so rude and mouthy in a restaurant that you were
tempted to walk out and leave her there. Of course you got compliments
about her behaviour.

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:29:50 -0600, Sal Paradise > wrote:
>
>>On 7/28/2015 5:13 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>> On 28 Jul 2015 20:30:34 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>>
>
>>>
>>> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
>>> believe in nature, not nurture.
>>>
>>
>>"It was revealed one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and
>>the parent went ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys,
>>press, etc."
>>
>>
>>ALL of that is learned behavior, not genetics.
>
> Sorry, bub, you'll have to prove that to me.
>
> Just as there are animals bred for particular characteristics and
> behaviors, so humans, although not necessarily bred for it, are likely
> to develop, too. This is not to say that behaviors cannot at all be
> affected by learning and training, far from it, but genetics and
> epigenetics play big parts in personality, action and reaction.
>
> Go read up on a few twin studies and come back to talk. And that is
> just a start.

I think it can be a combination of both.

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:08:27 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

<snip>

>Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc, and then
>it is anyone's game what can happen. It is unpredictable and a
>caregiver deals with it as best as possible. In some places that is
>easy - such as a restaurant, in others, such as a plane, it isn't. I
>have seen more unruly behavior among adults, drunk or sober on planes
>than I have kids. It's quieter sometimes, but a lot nastier, and it
>cannot be blamed on the vaguaries of childhood.

Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.

JB

>

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
...

> We all know kids get cranky. That's not the same as being a parent who
> simply ignores what they're doing.
>
> Jill

Exactly. Kids running through stores unattended is pretty much common where
I am, with parents doing nothing but ignoring them. Several times I have
seen the store clerks having to stop them from tearing stuff up, and that's
just not right.

Cheri

On 7/28/2015 10:23 PM, JBurns wrote:
> Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
> with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
> invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
> insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.
>
> JB
>
Good thing you didn't go down in the plane in the Andes. You might have
had to eat the rugby team and the flight staff.

Jill