On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 06:43:27 -0700 (PDT), Helpful person
> wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 7:14:18 PM UTC-4, Boron Elgar wrote:
> >
> >
> > Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
> > believe in nature, not nurture.
>
> Both are important. However, a child's personality is evident immediately after birth. People who deny this have never had a child.
>

+1

--

sf

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:51:38 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>
> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
> the seat.
>
> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>
Agree! The right thing for the airline to do was move the woman to a
better seat, not that ashat. If he didn't want to sit next to a
woman, then he should have purchased a row of two or three... or
whatever number it is in the middle. How could he contend with women
sitting in front of him? A female sitting behind him would probably
be okay because that's where women belong in his little pea brain.

--

sf

On 7/29/2015 10:38 AM, Gary wrote:
> Ophelia wrote:
>>
>> "Gary" > wrote in message ...
>>> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>>
>>>> barbie gee wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I am totally appalled at the way kids today clutch their utensils, and
>>>>> are
>>>>> pathetic at trying to cut food with these bizarre grips on their knives
>>>>> and forks. There IS a proper way to hold your utensils, and it's not in
>>>>> a
>>>>> closed fist, unless you have some sort of disability and can't hold it
>>>>> any
>>>>> other way.
>>>
>>> I've seen adults hold utensils in their fist too.
>>> On notable one was Jeffery Steingarten as a judge on Iron Chef.
>>> He would often hold a spoon in his fist.
>>>
>>> What has always disturbed me is the "European Way" to hold a fork.
>>> They hold it upside down and use a knife in the other hand.
>>> They spear their food rather than scoop it.
>>> It's evidently acceptable but it looks barbaric to me.
>>> That's not the way I was taught and it irks me to see it.
>>
>> Your way is unacceptable to us too. The way you describe is upside down,
>> and we don't have to change hands just cut up our food either!!! Hardly
>> elegant, is it?
>>
>> I won't carry on with this because I don't like to be so rude as to
>> highlight differences but since you decided to put us down ...
>
> No intention of "putting you down." It's just weird (and barbaric to
> me). This is only because of the way I grew up. You want "putting us
> down," lets talk about using chopsticks heheh. That is the stupidest
> eating utensil of all times to me. People only use them now because
> it's "cool". Eating with 2 sticks? LMAO! This is what ancient
> people used before they invented forks and spoons.
>
> G.
>
I know how to hold and eat with chopsticks but I'd really rather not.
Easier to eat with my fingers. That's why they invented appetizers and
chicken wings

Jill

On 7/29/2015 10:45 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:41:42 +0100, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
>>> believe in nature, not nurture.
>>
>> Do you? That is interesting. It is something I have wondered about myself.
>
>
> I have my own built in anecdotal evidence with a set of fraternal
> twins. That set me on the path of doing a lot of investigating and
> study of primary research among sibs, frat and identical twins.
>

You need some nurture, but I don't think it overcomes, only enhances
nature. This is from non-scientific observation of friends and family
that have multiple children and the same upbringing and opportunities.

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 07:15:32 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

> On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 6:11:50 PM UTC-4, sf wrote:
> > On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 10:11:10 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, July 28, 2015 at 12:05:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
> > >
> > > > In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got between
> > > > three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to prevent
> > > > their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This training
> > > > prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
> > >
> > > So were we, although I am capable of writing in my own books, as needed.
> > > If I couldn't write in my cookbooks, it'd be a sorry state of affairs.
> > >
> > That's what my computer is for.
>
> You allow your computer to write in your cookbooks? How does it hold
> the pencil?
>

If a recipe needs to be changed in some significant way that I want to
save or remember, I transpose or scan it and make notes via my
computer. Then the recipe goes into a folder with a picture of what
*I* made.

--

sf

On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 23:30:37 -0400, jmcquown >
wrote:

>On 7/28/2015 10:23 PM, JBurns wrote:
>> Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
>> with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
>> invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
>> insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.
>>
>> JB
>>
>Good thing you didn't go down in the plane in the Andes. You might have
>had to eat the rugby team and the flight staff.
>
>Jill

I think that was a soccer team. Had it been a rugby team I would have
had meat for years!

JB

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:12:35 -0400, Gary > wrote:

wrote:
>>
>> jmcquown wrote:
>> >Good thing you didn't go down in the plane in the Andes. You might have
>> >had to eat the rugby team and the flight staff.
>
>> Well the rugby team was well pickled.
>
>What part of the goalie would be the rib-eye? He would be the most
>fattiest and tender one, not having to run around the field for
>hours.

You have the wrong game. Rugby is played by thick necked monster men
that run around crushing and beating each other senseless. No goalie.

JB

On 7/29/2015 11:01 AM, Gary wrote:
> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
>> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
>> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
>> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
>> the seat.
>>
>> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
>> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>
> I disagree. He should have been able to stay on the flight, then
> tossed out the back cargo door once they got 30,000' or so. Then all
> will deny that he ever got on the flight to start with. He would have
> plenty of time to pray on the long way down.
>
What ever happend to that guy who allegedly stole $200,000 dollars after
hijacking a plane and bailed out? D.B. Cooper. 1971. Stupid idea to
jump out of an airplane at 50,000 feet or whatever it was.

I suspect he didn't care about kids crying on an airplane or misbehaving
in restaurants.

Jill

On 7/29/2015 10:53 AM, S Viemeister wrote:
> On 7/29/2015 10:51 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
>> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
>> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
>> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
>> the seat.
>>
>> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
>> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>>
> I'm surprised he wasn't.
> Either that, or the flight crew should have placed the _woman_ in the
> more expensive section.
>
Cheers!

Jill

"Cindy Hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 4:40:19 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>> "sf" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:10:57 +0100, "Ophelia" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > wrote in message
>> >> >
>> >> > In grammar school we were lent our textbooks. I believe they got
>> >> > between
>> >> > three and five years' use out of each one. We had to cover them to
>> >> > prevent
>> >> > their being marred, and of course we could not write in them. This
>> >> > training
>> >> > prevents me from writing in a book to this day.
>> >>
>> >> Hey! Same here! Are you a Brit?
>> >
>> > We don't have to be a Brit or even Catholic to have that background
>> > experience.
>>
>> *sigh* If you are looking for sarcasm you are wasting your time. I
>> wasn't
>> aware of grammar schools in US.
>
> Probably has a different meaning in the U.S. Here grammar school
> (or elementary school) is what you attend for the first 6 or so
> years of education.
>
> They are generally run by local (city) school boards, with input
> from the state and federal government (including input of tax money),
> although schools operated by private-sector entities or churches
> are reasonably common. The former are paid for from tax revenues;
> the latter are paid for by (typically) parents or scholarship funds.
>
> (God, that last sentence was ghastly in its use of prepositions. Sorry.)

No problem Thanks for the explanation

Q&A: What are grammar schools? (In UK)

Grammar schools are state schools which select their pupils on the basis of
academic ability. Pupils in their final year of primary school sit an exam
known as the 11-plus which determines whether or not they get a place. There
is no central 11-plus exam, with papers being set on a local basis.

How are they funded?

Much the same as other maintained schools. Central government allocates
funds, largely on a per pupil basis, to local authorities. A local funding
formula then determines how much each school receives

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6660823.stm



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
news
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:44:50 +0100, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
. ..
>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:29:50 -0600, Sal Paradise > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 7/28/2015 5:13 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>>>> On 28 Jul 2015 20:30:34 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
>>>>> believe in nature, not nurture.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"It was revealed one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and
>>>>the parent went ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys,
>>>>press, etc."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>ALL of that is learned behavior, not genetics.
>>>
>>> Sorry, bub, you'll have to prove that to me.
>>>
>>> Just as there are animals bred for particular characteristics and
>>> behaviors, so humans, although not necessarily bred for it, are likely
>>> to develop, too. This is not to say that behaviors cannot at all be
>>> affected by learning and training, far from it, but genetics and
>>> epigenetics play big parts in personality, action and reaction.
>>
>>True and I think upbringing and training can can play a big part in
>>restraining natural urges.
>>
>
> In many cases they can, but in some instances it can take such
> extraordinary efforts and reinforcement, that it is not feasible.
>
> Nature is not always kind and nurture can be more than an average or
> less than average or even above average parent/parents/family/social
> safety net can temper and control.
>
> You've done animal rescue...you know that some are easier and more
> successful than others. Sadly, human rescue can be the same. And a
> person such as yourself is devoted to helping and you choose to do so.
> Not all caregivers are capable of it, nor are all capable of building
> a care/aid framework to assist in it.

Each dog is different and displays differing tendencies and personalities. I
have always assumed their lives before coming to me play a large part in
that. If they have been mistreated it takes a lot of time to gain their
trust, but once that has happened, they are obedient and affectionate 'to
me' but not always to others. How this relates to nature I don't know but I
always put it down to 'my' nurturing and the life they have (perhaps)
endured.

> Even WITH all the effort it can be daunting and at times impossible to
> hold it all together. It is easier with rescued critters as most have
> a limited lifetime and can be contained and they go to homes that are
> willing to do it, but a special needs kid can be a long lifetime of
> trials and tribulations and born to those who just cannot handle it
> themselves.

Yes, I do understand and since I have no experience of special needs kids I
can't argue the point, but surely, if a child has always known a warm and
loving home, the difficulties should be far fewer?

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 7/29/2015 3:06 AM, Gary wrote:
> Julie Bove wrote:
>>
>> I have a library card. Looks like a credit card. Never used it.
>
> Don't like libraries either?
>
Get out - stalker!


....dump!

____.-.____
[__Sqwerty__]
[___Marty___]
(d|||TROLL|||b)
`|||TRASH|||`
|||||||||||
|||||||||||
|||||||||||
|||||||||||
`"""""""""'

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:41:42 +0100, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
>>> believe in nature, not nurture.
>>
>>Do you? That is interesting. It is something I have wondered about
>>myself.
>
>
> I have my own built in anecdotal evidence with a set of fraternal
> twins. That set me on the path of doing a lot of investigating and
> study of primary research among sibs, frat and identical twins.

I cannot match your experience and I can only go on my own (limited)
experience ... with dogs.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:23:28 +0800, JBurns >
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:08:27 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc, and then
>>>it is anyone's game what can happen. It is unpredictable and a
>>>caregiver deals with it as best as possible. In some places that is
>>>easy - such as a restaurant, in others, such as a plane, it isn't. I
>>>have seen more unruly behavior among adults, drunk or sober on planes
>>>than I have kids. It's quieter sometimes, but a lot nastier, and it
>>>cannot be blamed on the vaguaries of childhood.
>>
>>Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
>>with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
>>invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
>>insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.
>>
>>JB
>
>
> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
> the seat.
>
> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.

You mean he wasn't????


>
>

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Gary" > wrote in message ...
> Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
>> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
>> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
>> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
>> the seat.
>>
>> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
>> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>
> I disagree. He should have been able to stay on the flight, then
> tossed out the back cargo door once they got 30,000' or so. Then all
> will deny that he ever got on the flight to start with. He would have
> plenty of time to pray on the long way down.

Whereas, back in the real world ...

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Cindy Hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 9:39:23 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>> "S Viemeister" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On 7/29/2015 8:34 AM, Gary wrote:
>> >> S Viemeister wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On 7/29/2015 4:39 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> *sigh* If you are looking for sarcasm you are wasting your time. I
>> >>>> wasn't aware of grammar schools in US.
>> >>>>
>> >>> Not the same as UK 'grammar schools' - in the US, it seems to just
>> >>> mean
>> >>> 'primary school'.
>> >>
>> >> In the USA, it's known as "elementary school."
>> > >
>> > Depending on where you are, it can be called grade school or grammar
>> > school, too.
>> >
>> >> Back in my day, we had no kindergarten required.
>> > >
>> > That varied from state to state.
>> >
>> >> It was an option like pre-school is today.
>> >> In my kids time (1980's), kindergarten was required
>> >>
>> >> Elementary schools used to be (in daughter's time) K-6th grade
>> >> Now it's changed to K-5th grade
>> >>
>> > In _some_ parts of the US.
>> >
>> >> After that, Junior High was 7-9th grades
>> >> Now it's 6-8th grades
>> >>
>> > In _some_ parts of the US.
>> > The school district in which my son works, has a Middle School,
>> > covering
>> > grades 7 and 8.
>> >
>> >> High school use to be 10-12th grade
>> >> Now it's 9-12th grade.
>> >>
>> > In _some_ parts of the US.
>>
>> Must they pass exams to go their Grammar schools the same as we do?
>
> American "grammar schools" are for children of ages 5 to 12
> (approximately).
>
> American children are required to go to school, and these are the
> basic, default, government-operated schools for everyone. If a
> parent wants to send their child to a private-sector school or
> teach them at home, I believe they have to prove to the authorities
> that their children are in school.

Thank you.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"Cindy Hamilton" > wrote in message
...
> On Wednesday, July 29, 2015 at 9:44:10 AM UTC-4, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Gary" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Boron Elgar wrote:
>> >
>> >> barbie gee wrote:
>> >
>> >> >I am totally appalled at the way kids today clutch their utensils,
>> >> >and
>> >> >are
>> >> >pathetic at trying to cut food with these bizarre grips on their
>> >> >knives
>> >> >and forks. There IS a proper way to hold your utensils, and it's not
>> >> >in
>> >> >a
>> >> >closed fist, unless you have some sort of disability and can't hold
>> >> >it
>> >> >any
>> >> >other way.
>> >
>> > I've seen adults hold utensils in their fist too.
>> > On notable one was Jeffery Steingarten as a judge on Iron Chef.
>> > He would often hold a spoon in his fist.
>> >
>> > What has always disturbed me is the "European Way" to hold a fork.
>> > They hold it upside down and use a knife in the other hand.
>> > They spear their food rather than scoop it.
>> > It's evidently acceptable but it looks barbaric to me.
>> > That's not the way I was taught and it irks me to see it.
>>
>> Your way is unacceptable to us too. The way you describe is upside down,
>> and we don't have to change hands just cut up our food either!!! Hardly
>> elegant, is it?
>>
>> I won't carry on with this because I don't like to be so rude as to
>> highlight differences but since you decided to put us down ...
>
> Apparently I have bad manners, or I'm secretly European. (Or maybe
> I'm just a lefty trying to make sense of a right-handed world.)
>
> I hold my fork in my left hand (tines up) and my knife in my right hand.
> That's it. Cut with the right, convey to mouth with left. Once in
> a while I flip the fork tines down--just for a lark, but only if I'm
> not eating something like peas, which require more of a (dare I say it?)
> shovel. They'd fall off the back side of a fork, which curves downward.

I would say you are a secret Brit <g>

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

"graham" > wrote in message
...
> On 29/07/2015 8:51 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:23:28 +0800, JBurns >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:08:27 -0400, Boron Elgar
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc, and then
>>>> it is anyone's game what can happen. It is unpredictable and a
>>>> caregiver deals with it as best as possible. In some places that is
>>>> easy - such as a restaurant, in others, such as a plane, it isn't. I
>>>> have seen more unruly behavior among adults, drunk or sober on planes
>>>> than I have kids. It's quieter sometimes, but a lot nastier, and it
>>>> cannot be blamed on the vaguaries of childhood.
>>>
>>> Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
>>> with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
>>> invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
>>> insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.
>>>
>>> JB
>>
>>
>> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
>> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
>> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
>> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
>> the seat.
>>
>> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
>> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>>
> Agreed!! Was he Haredi?
> I'm afraid society in general leans over backwards to accommodate religion
> and especially religious practices. In the US you can be thankful that you
> have a Freedom From Religion Foundation that is fighting religious
> encroachments whenever they occur.
> Graham

Don't forget that only white indigenous people in UK can be racist!


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On 7/29/2015 6:58 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-07-29 8:45 AM, Janet wrote:
>
>>
>> I had to get
>>> the card for some dumb thing that my daughter was supposed to have
>>> needed
>>> for school.
>>
>> Books? Probably another thing you never heard of and Angela doesn't
>> like.
>>
> What??? But Julie is a writer. Oh hold it. She said she was a writer.
> Then she said she was not a writer. Then she said that she never said
> that she was a writer. Then when someone dug up old posts where she had
> claimed to be a writer she said that she did not remember doing that.
>
>
>
Why don't you find some geese to bully?

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:00:22 -0400, Gary > wrote:

> Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> > barbie gee wrote:
>
> > >I am totally appalled at the way kids today clutch their utensils, and are
> > >pathetic at trying to cut food with these bizarre grips on their knives
> > >and forks. There IS a proper way to hold your utensils, and it's not in a
> > >closed fist, unless you have some sort of disability and can't hold it any
> > >other way.
>
> I've seen adults hold utensils in their fist too.
> On notable one was Jeffery Steingarten as a judge on Iron Chef.
> He would often hold a spoon in his fist.
>
> What has always disturbed me is the "European Way" to hold a fork.
> They hold it upside down and use a knife in the other hand.
> They spear their food rather than scoop it.
> It's evidently acceptable but it looks barbaric to me.
> That's not the way I was taught and it irks me to see it.

I think what started off in WWII as friendly kidding, turned nasty
years ago in RFC. We kidded them about "warm" beer (it isn't as cold
as ours, but it's not warm either) and they kidded us about the way we
handle our utensils. If it makes you feel any better, our way
(according to some sources) is the older way and theirs is the new
one. The claim is that our way came to the States with the British
colonists and took hold, while the European method is a more recent
change. It makes sense and all you need to do is look at Appalachian
English for a parallel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_English.

That said, clubbing utensils is still wrong on both sides of The Pond.
https://rubbisheatrubbishgrow.files....0766.jpg?w=700
http://www.boston.com/business/blogs.../Fork-2-WO.jpg

--

sf

On 7/29/2015 7:52 AM, sf wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:27:28 -0400, Gary > wrote:
>
>> No matter where you live though, college fees are out of control imo.
>
> Agree.
>
It's because they are making college an amenity recruiting ground - more
toys for students.

Fact.

On 7/29/2015 8:45 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:41:42 +0100, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> "Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
>>> believe in nature, not nurture.
>>
>> Do you? That is interesting. It is something I have wondered about myself.
>
>
> I have my own built in anecdotal evidence with a set of fraternal
> twins. That set me on the path of doing a lot of investigating and
> study of primary research among sibs, frat and identical twins.
>

An anecdote upon another?

On 7/29/2015 9:22 AM, sf wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:51:38 -0400, Boron Elgar
> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
>> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
>> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
>> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
>> the seat.
>>
>> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
>> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>>
> Agree! The right thing for the airline to do was move the woman to a
> better seat, not that ashat. If he didn't want to sit next to a
> woman, then he should have purchased a row of two or three... or
> whatever number it is in the middle. How could he contend with women
> sitting in front of him? A female sitting behind him would probably
> be okay because that's where women belong in his little pea brain.
>
+1!

On 7/29/2015 9:28 AM, JBurns wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 23:30:37 -0400, jmcquown >
> wrote:
>
>> On 7/28/2015 10:23 PM, JBurns wrote:
>>> Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
>>> with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
>>> invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
>>> insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.
>>>
>>> JB
>>>
>> Good thing you didn't go down in the plane in the Andes. You might have
>> had to eat the rugby team and the flight staff.
>>
>> Jill
>
> I think that was a soccer team. Had it been a rugby team I would have
> had meat for years!
>
> JB
>
+1

On 7/29/2015 10:21 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "graham" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 29/07/2015 8:51 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:23:28 +0800, JBurns >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:08:27 -0400, Boron Elgar
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <snip>
>>>>
>>>>> Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc, and then
>>>>> it is anyone's game what can happen. It is unpredictable and a
>>>>> caregiver deals with it as best as possible. In some places that is
>>>>> easy - such as a restaurant, in others, such as a plane, it isn't. I
>>>>> have seen more unruly behavior among adults, drunk or sober on planes
>>>>> than I have kids. It's quieter sometimes, but a lot nastier, and it
>>>>> cannot be blamed on the vaguaries of childhood.
>>>>
>>>> Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
>>>> with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
>>>> invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
>>>> insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.
>>>>
>>>> JB
>>>
>>>
>>> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
>>> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
>>> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
>>> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
>>> the seat.
>>>
>>> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
>>> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>>>
>> Agreed!! Was he Haredi?
>> I'm afraid society in general leans over backwards to accommodate
>> religion and especially religious practices. In the US you can be
>> thankful that you have a Freedom From Religion Foundation that is
>> fighting religious encroachments whenever they occur.
>> Graham
>
> Don't forget that only white indigenous people in UK can be racist!
>
>
Really?

Dang.

Same thing applies over here!

On 7/29/2015 12:19 AM, Sal Paradise wrote:
Barbara J. Llorente FRAUD!

Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record
ID: 47846596.

Your ass has more mass than Jupiter!

No one cares about you.

Get OUT!


_,..._
/__ \
>< `. \
/_ \ |
\-_ /:|
,--'..'. :
,' `.
_,' \
_.._,--'' , |
, ,',, _| _,.'| | |
\\||/,'(,' '--'' | | |
_ ||| | /-' |
| | (- -)<`._ | / /
| | \_\O/_/`-.(<< |____/ /
| | / \ / -'| `--.'|
| | \___/ / /
| | H H / | |
|_|_..-H-H--.._ / ,| |
|-.._"_"__..-| | _-/ | |
| | | | \_ |
Barbara Llorente | | | | |
| The | |____| | |
|Troll Enabler | _..' | |____|
jrei | |_(____..._' _.' |

On 7/30/2015 2:19 AM, Ophelia wrote:
As Jeb Bush prepares for his imminent presidential campaign, the
American people must keep in mind just who this man is and the crimes he
committed rigging the 2000 presidential election, which put his brother
George W. in the Oval Office, set us on the road to the Iraq War, the
Great Recession, destroyed America’s standing in the world, altered
American history forever.

Jeb Bush just so happened to be the Governor of Florida during that
election, and as you may recall, the Florida vote was so close that
recounts were requested and eventually declared his brother the winner.
Katherine Harris, Jeb’s secretary of state and the co-chair of the
George W. campaign, organized the election system that somehow ended up
losing or spoiling the ballots of hundreds of thousands of
African-American voters, who just so coincidentally tend to vote
Democratic. During the recount period, it is documented that the
Governor’s office made 95 calls to the Bush campaign- calls which Jeb
somehow “cannot remember” the reason for. That answer is unacceptable
for allegations of such importance. Why can’t you remember, Jeb?

On 7/30/2015 1:32 AM, jmcquown wrote:
As Jeb Bush prepares for his imminent presidential campaign, the
American people must keep in mind just who this man is and the crimes he
committed rigging the 2000 presidential election, which put his brother
George W. in the Oval Office, set us on the road to the Iraq War, the
Great Recession, destroyed America’s standing in the world, altered
American history forever.

Jeb Bush just so happened to be the Governor of Florida during that
election, and as you may recall, the Florida vote was so close that
recounts were requested and eventually declared his brother the winner.
Katherine Harris, Jeb’s secretary of state and the co-chair of the
George W. campaign, organized the election system that somehow ended up
losing or spoiling the ballots of hundreds of thousands of
African-American voters, who just so coincidentally tend to vote
Democratic. During the recount period, it is documented that the
Governor’s office made 95 calls to the Bush campaign- calls which Jeb
somehow “cannot remember” the reason for. That answer is unacceptable
for allegations of such importance. Why can’t you remember, Jeb?

On 7/30/2015 1:36 AM, jmcquown wrote:
As Jeb Bush prepares for his imminent presidential campaign, the
American people must keep in mind just who this man is and the crimes he
committed rigging the 2000 presidential election, which put his brother
George W. in the Oval Office, set us on the road to the Iraq War, the
Great Recession, destroyed America’s standing in the world, altered
American history forever.

Jeb Bush just so happened to be the Governor of Florida during that
election, and as you may recall, the Florida vote was so close that
recounts were requested and eventually declared his brother the winner.
Katherine Harris, Jeb’s secretary of state and the co-chair of the
George W. campaign, organized the election system that somehow ended up
losing or spoiling the ballots of hundreds of thousands of
African-American voters, who just so coincidentally tend to vote
Democratic. During the recount period, it is documented that the
Governor’s office made 95 calls to the Bush campaign- calls which Jeb
somehow “cannot remember” the reason for. That answer is unacceptable
for allegations of such importance. Why can’t you remember, Jeb?

On 7/30/2015 1:28 AM, JBurns wrote:
As Jeb Bush prepares for his imminent presidential campaign, the
American people must keep in mind just who this man is and the crimes he
committed rigging the 2000 presidential election, which put his brother
George W. in the Oval Office, set us on the road to the Iraq War, the
Great Recession, destroyed America’s standing in the world, altered
American history forever.

Jeb Bush just so happened to be the Governor of Florida during that
election, and as you may recall, the Florida vote was so close that
recounts were requested and eventually declared his brother the winner.
Katherine Harris, Jeb’s secretary of state and the co-chair of the
George W. campaign, organized the election system that somehow ended up
losing or spoiling the ballots of hundreds of thousands of
African-American voters, who just so coincidentally tend to vote
Democratic. During the recount period, it is documented that the
Governor’s office made 95 calls to the Bush campaign- calls which Jeb
somehow “cannot remember” the reason for. That answer is unacceptable
for allegations of such importance. Why can’t you remember, Jeb?

On 7/30/2015 1:13 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
As Jeb Bush prepares for his imminent presidential campaign, the
American people must keep in mind just who this man is and the crimes he
committed rigging the 2000 presidential election, which put his brother
George W. in the Oval Office, set us on the road to the Iraq War, the
Great Recession, destroyed America’s standing in the world, altered
American history forever.

Jeb Bush just so happened to be the Governor of Florida during that
election, and as you may recall, the Florida vote was so close that
recounts were requested and eventually declared his brother the winner.
Katherine Harris, Jeb’s secretary of state and the co-chair of the
George W. campaign, organized the election system that somehow ended up
losing or spoiling the ballots of hundreds of thousands of
African-American voters, who just so coincidentally tend to vote
Democratic. During the recount period, it is documented that the
Governor’s office made 95 calls to the Bush campaign- calls which Jeb
somehow “cannot remember” the reason for. That answer is unacceptable
for allegations of such importance. Why can’t you remember, Jeb?

On 7/30/2015 1:10 AM, graham wrote:
As Jeb Bush prepares for his imminent presidential campaign, the
American people must keep in mind just who this man is and the crimes he
committed rigging the 2000 presidential election, which put his brother
George W. in the Oval Office, set us on the road to the Iraq War, the
Great Recession, destroyed America’s standing in the world, altered
American history forever.

Jeb Bush just so happened to be the Governor of Florida during that
election, and as you may recall, the Florida vote was so close that
recounts were requested and eventually declared his brother the winner.
Katherine Harris, Jeb’s secretary of state and the co-chair of the
George W. campaign, organized the election system that somehow ended up
losing or spoiling the ballots of hundreds of thousands of
African-American voters, who just so coincidentally tend to vote
Democratic. During the recount period, it is documented that the
Governor’s office made 95 calls to the Bush campaign- calls which Jeb
somehow “cannot remember” the reason for. That answer is unacceptable
for allegations of such importance. Why can’t you remember, Jeb?

On 7/30/2015 3:06 AM, Directorate of Troll Removal and Disposal wrote:
Barbara J. Llorente FRAUD!

Barbara J Llorente 71 Cerritos Ave San Francisco, CA 94127.
Age 65 (Born 1950) (415) 239-7248. Background Check - Available. Record
ID: 47846596.

Your ass has more mass than Jupiter!

No one cares about you.

Get OUT!


_,..._
/__ \
>< `. \
/_ \ |
\-_ /:|
,--'..'. :
,' `.
_,' \
_.._,--'' , |
, ,',, _| _,.'| | |
\\||/,'(,' '--'' | | |
_ ||| | /-' |
| | (- -)<`._ | / /
| | \_\O/_/`-.(<< |____/ /
| | / \ / -'| `--.'|
| | \___/ / /
| | H H / | |
|_|_..-H-H--.._ / ,| |
|-.._"_"__..-| | _-/ | |
| | | | \_ |
Barbara Llorente | | | | |
| The | |____| | |
|Troll Enabler | _..' | |____|
jrei | |_(____..._' _.' |

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 17:14:32 +0100, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

>
>
>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
>news
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:44:50 +0100, "Ophelia" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
>>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 17:29:50 -0600, Sal Paradise > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On 7/28/2015 5:13 PM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>>>>> On 28 Jul 2015 20:30:34 GMT, notbob > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or how much genetics had to do with it. The older I get, the more I
>>>>>> believe in nature, not nurture.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"It was revealed one child had committed suicide for being in juvie and
>>>>>the parent went ballistic, in public, screaming at the judge, attorneys,
>>>>>press, etc."
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>ALL of that is learned behavior, not genetics.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, bub, you'll have to prove that to me.
>>>>
>>>> Just as there are animals bred for particular characteristics and
>>>> behaviors, so humans, although not necessarily bred for it, are likely
>>>> to develop, too. This is not to say that behaviors cannot at all be
>>>> affected by learning and training, far from it, but genetics and
>>>> epigenetics play big parts in personality, action and reaction.
>>>
>>>True and I think upbringing and training can can play a big part in
>>>restraining natural urges.
>>>
>>
>> In many cases they can, but in some instances it can take such
>> extraordinary efforts and reinforcement, that it is not feasible.
>>
>> Nature is not always kind and nurture can be more than an average or
>> less than average or even above average parent/parents/family/social
>> safety net can temper and control.
>>
>> You've done animal rescue...you know that some are easier and more
>> successful than others. Sadly, human rescue can be the same. And a
>> person such as yourself is devoted to helping and you choose to do so.
>> Not all caregivers are capable of it, nor are all capable of building
>> a care/aid framework to assist in it.
>
>Each dog is different and displays differing tendencies and personalities. I
>have always assumed their lives before coming to me play a large part in
>that. If they have been mistreated it takes a lot of time to gain their
>trust, but once that has happened, they are obedient and affectionate 'to
>me' but not always to others. How this relates to nature I don't know but I
>always put it down to 'my' nurturing and the life they have (perhaps)
>endured.

Depends on the age at rescue. Pups from puppy mills here can be rough
even from the start as their breeding has been so poor.
>
>> Even WITH all the effort it can be daunting and at times impossible to
>> hold it all together. It is easier with rescued critters as most have
>> a limited lifetime and can be contained and they go to homes that are
>> willing to do it, but a special needs kid can be a long lifetime of
>> trials and tribulations and born to those who just cannot handle it
>> themselves.
>
>Yes, I do understand and since I have no experience of special needs kids I
>can't argue the point, but surely, if a child has always known a warm and
>loving home, the difficulties should be far fewer?

Maybe, maybe not. Love does not affect learning disabilities or mental
illness or similar. It might help some children immensely, but it is
no guarantee. Same thinking goes into it when a kid from what is
investigated and shown to be a loving home turns out just plain awful
in any number of ways.

Love cannot overcome brain chemistry malfunctions.

On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:10:09 -0600, graham > wrote:

>On 29/07/2015 8:51 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:23:28 +0800, JBurns >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:08:27 -0400, Boron Elgar
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> Beyond that, though, a kid can get tired, scared, sick, etc, and then
>>>> it is anyone's game what can happen. It is unpredictable and a
>>>> caregiver deals with it as best as possible. In some places that is
>>>> easy - such as a restaurant, in others, such as a plane, it isn't. I
>>>> have seen more unruly behavior among adults, drunk or sober on planes
>>>> than I have kids. It's quieter sometimes, but a lot nastier, and it
>>>> cannot be blamed on the vaguaries of childhood.
>>>
>>> Tell me about it. I had a ten hour flight from Perth, WA to Joburg, SA
>>> with a drunken rugby team. I was up the pointy end but they kept
>>> invading that end and causing havoc, being generally obnoxious,
>>> insulting and threatening. I felt most sorry for the flight staff.
>>>
>>> JB
>>
>>
>> My most recent flight, a few weeks ago, was held up because a man
>> decided his religion prohibited him from being seated next to a woman
>> and he arbitrarily chose another seat in a more expensive section of
>> the plane, thereby displacing someone else who had paid a premium for
>> the seat.
>>
>> It was quite the scene. Frankly, I think the religious guy should have
>> been carted off in cuffs by the Feds and put on the no-fly list.
>>
>Agreed!! Was he Haredi?

Yup. When he was speaking to his travel companions in Yiddish, I
could understand most of what he was saying, too, as I have a long
Yiddish history. He was a shitheel in two languages, though.

>I'm afraid society in general leans over backwards to accommodate
>religion and especially religious practices. In the US you can be
>thankful that you have a Freedom From Religion Foundation that is
>fighting religious encroachments whenever they occur.

I think if he wants to know he is going to sit next to, that he should
arrange that when he buys his seat. He can buy the one(s) next to him,
too, to control that.

It isn't only religion that causes this nonsense in the air. The
discomforts are so severe these days, that fights break out over
little things among passengers all the time.


>Graham

On 7/28/2015 5:06 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

> That may have something to do with why people would go whining to
> social media when they are confronted with the bad behaviour of their
> children. They like to whine about how the big bad server or
> restaurant owner accosted their kid verbally, but what they are really
> upset with is having to face the fact that their kid misbehaved
> because they screwed up as parents.

Two of my sisters raised feral children (or, as we referred to them in
alt.support.childfree, Future Felons of America). One sister and her
hubby let her kids get away with everything because they were
'special', she thought they pooped rainbows and thus she bristled
whenever anyone complained about her kids' bad behavior.

The other sister/hubby are antisocial by nature, and raised their kids
accordingly. Meaning, rules and manners are for other people, and ****
you if you don't like what my kids are doing.

I expect most of these feral children are raised by parents with
similar attitudes.

On 7/30/2015 3:31 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 09:10:09 -0600, graham > wrote:
>
>> On 29/07/2015 8:51 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Jul 2015 10:23:28 +0800, JBurns >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 28 Jul 2015 11:08:27 -0400, Boron Elgar
Neil, George Jr., George Sr., and Jeb Bush

The Savings and Loan industry had been experiencing major problems
through the late 60s and 70s due to rising inflation and rising interest
rates. Because of this there was a move in the 1970s to replace the
role of S&L institutions with banks.

In the early 1980s, under Reagan, regulatory changes took place that
gave the S&L industry new powers and for the first time in history
measures were taken to increase the profitability of S&Ls at the expense
of promoting home ownership.

A history of the S&L situation can be found he

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/s&l/

What is important to note about the S&L scandal is that it was the
largest theft in the history of the world and US tax payers are who was
robbed.

The problems occurred in the Savings and Loan industry as they relate to
theft because the industry was deregulated under the Reagan/Bush
administration and restrictions were eased on the industry so much that
abuse and misuse of funds became easy, rampant, and went unchecked.

Additional facts on the Savings and Loan Scandal can be found he

http://www.inthe80s.com/sandl.shtml

There are several ways in which the Bush family plays into the Savings
and Loan scandal, which involves not only many members of the Bush
family but also many other politicians that are still in office and
still part of the Bush Jr. administration today. Jeb Bush, George Bush
Sr., and his son Neil Bush have all been implicated in the Savings and
Loan Scandal, which cost American tax payers over $1.4 TRILLION dollars
(note that this is about one quarter of our national debt).

On 7/30/2015 3:27 AM, Boron Elgar wrote:
Neil, George Jr., George Sr., and Jeb Bush

The Savings and Loan industry had been experiencing major problems
through the late 60s and 70s due to rising inflation and rising interest
rates. Because of this there was a move in the 1970s to replace the
role of S&L institutions with banks.

In the early 1980s, under Reagan, regulatory changes took place that
gave the S&L industry new powers and for the first time in history
measures were taken to increase the profitability of S&Ls at the expense
of promoting home ownership.

A history of the S&L situation can be found he

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/s&l/

What is important to note about the S&L scandal is that it was the
largest theft in the history of the world and US tax payers are who was
robbed.

The problems occurred in the Savings and Loan industry as they relate to
theft because the industry was deregulated under the Reagan/Bush
administration and restrictions were eased on the industry so much that
abuse and misuse of funds became easy, rampant, and went unchecked.

Additional facts on the Savings and Loan Scandal can be found he

http://www.inthe80s.com/sandl.shtml

There are several ways in which the Bush family plays into the Savings
and Loan scandal, which involves not only many members of the Bush
family but also many other politicians that are still in office and
still part of the Bush Jr. administration today. Jeb Bush, George Bush
Sr., and his son Neil Bush have all been implicated in the Savings and
Loan Scandal, which cost American tax payers over $1.4 TRILLION dollars
(note that this is about one quarter of our national debt).

On 7/30/2015 3:58 AM, Moe DeLoughan wrote:
Neil, George Jr., George Sr., and Jeb Bush

The Savings and Loan industry had been experiencing major problems
through the late 60s and 70s due to rising inflation and rising interest
rates. Because of this there was a move in the 1970s to replace the
role of S&L institutions with banks.

In the early 1980s, under Reagan, regulatory changes took place that
gave the S&L industry new powers and for the first time in history
measures were taken to increase the profitability of S&Ls at the expense
of promoting home ownership.

A history of the S&L situation can be found he

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/s&l/

What is important to note about the S&L scandal is that it was the
largest theft in the history of the world and US tax payers are who was
robbed.

The problems occurred in the Savings and Loan industry as they relate to
theft because the industry was deregulated under the Reagan/Bush
administration and restrictions were eased on the industry so much that
abuse and misuse of funds became easy, rampant, and went unchecked.

Additional facts on the Savings and Loan Scandal can be found he

http://www.inthe80s.com/sandl.shtml

There are several ways in which the Bush family plays into the Savings
and Loan scandal, which involves not only many members of the Bush
family but also many other politicians that are still in office and
still part of the Bush Jr. administration today. Jeb Bush, George Bush
Sr., and his son Neil Bush have all been implicated in the Savings and
Loan Scandal, which cost American tax payers over $1.4 TRILLION dollars
(note that this is about one quarter of our national debt).

On 7/28/2015 8:34 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
Neil, George Jr., George Sr., and Jeb Bush

The Savings and Loan industry had been experiencing major problems
through the late 60s and 70s due to rising inflation and rising interest
rates. Because of this there was a move in the 1970s to replace the
role of S&L institutions with banks.

In the early 1980s, under Reagan, regulatory changes took place that
gave the S&L industry new powers and for the first time in history
measures were taken to increase the profitability of S&Ls at the expense
of promoting home ownership.

A history of the S&L situation can be found he

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/historical/s&l/

What is important to note about the S&L scandal is that it was the
largest theft in the history of the world and US tax payers are who was
robbed.

The problems occurred in the Savings and Loan industry as they relate to
theft because the industry was deregulated under the Reagan/Bush
administration and restrictions were eased on the industry so much that
abuse and misuse of funds became easy, rampant, and went unchecked.

Additional facts on the Savings and Loan Scandal can be found he

http://www.inthe80s.com/sandl.shtml

There are several ways in which the Bush family plays into the Savings
and Loan scandal, which involves not only many members of the Bush
family but also many other politicians that are still in office and
still part of the Bush Jr. administration today. Jeb Bush, George Bush
Sr., and his son Neil Bush have all been implicated in the Savings and
Loan Scandal, which cost American tax payers over $1.4 TRILLION dollars
(note that this is about one quarter of our national debt).