sf wrote:
>Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> > the size of water heater isn't your
>> > problem (unless you take long showers) - but the size of your pipes
>> > is. Either your pipes are corroded or just plain too small. Reroute
>> > them to a direct run and/or replace them with a larger size and your
>> > hot water will reach the faucet faster.
>>
>> Larger diameter pipe will not make the hot water come faster. On the
>> contrary, there will be more cold water in the pipes to be purged. I
>> suppose you could run massive pipes and huge fixtures, but there is
>> limited water pressure and the big restriction is at the faucet. The
>> more cold water there is sitting in the pipes, the longer it is going to
>> take to get hot.
>
>I will guarantee you that corroded pipes affect everything.

That's what you were told by your OB-GYN.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:57:17 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>
> You can guarantee it but can you explain it?

Why? The pseudo scientists here can wow you with their book
knowledge, but the results speak for themselves and that's all I need.

--

sf

On 10/20/2015 4:44 PM, Ophelia wrote:
> "William" > wrote
>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:37:13 +0100, "Ophelia" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Or buy a combi boiler!
>>
>> what is that Ophelia? Do we have any of those here in the colonies?
>
> Ask Sheila. She has homes in Scotland and USA and she has a combi
> boiler here in Scotland. She will know
>
<http://wholehousecombi.com/>

<https://www.rinnai.us/e50cboiler>

We haven't upgraded the system in the US house yet, but the combi we put
in in Scotland is saving us a fortune in fuel costs - it's nearly paid
for itself already.
We went for an externally mounted unit. It backs onto the
utility/laundry room, and has a fairly short run to the bathroom,
kitchen and garage.
Ours is oil-fired, as we are nearly 100 miles from the nearest mains gas.

Thanks for the information!

William

On 2015-10-20 19:31, sf wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:57:17 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> You can guarantee it but can you explain it?
>
> Why? The pseudo scientists here can wow you with their book
> knowledge, but the results speak for themselves and that's all I need.
>


Okay.... you can't explain it.

On 10/20/2015 5:13 PM, Mark Storkamp wrote:

>> Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>
> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>
> I've got a laundry sink, kitchen sink, bath sink, toilet, shower and
> outside faucet. That's 1 item too many for 1/2" lines. But that 3/4" is
> only required after the meter, so the buried line out to the street was
> left as is.
>

Ouch! Perfect example of why people often don't get permits and
inspections.

On 10/20/2015 5:47 PM, Nancy2 wrote:
> Susan, your way is the way I have done all the remodeling in my house .. Kitchen,
> two bathrooms, red room .. I do not know anyone at all that has a contractor pick out any
> of the items you mention.
>
> Everyone I know has done all their own choosing. I can't imagine allowing any
> contractor to do the choosing, even a known and respected contractor.
>
> N.
>

You'd be surprised. My step-father was a builder and in his later years
did kitchen remodels. Many of his clients were older people in older
houses and all were from referrals of other customers that liked his
work. In many cases, the client would give him a budget and just tell
him they wanted a new kitchen. He did the layout, my mother would
choose the cabinets, countertops appliances.

It was all good quality and expert installations. He did many kitchens
like that and never had an unhappy customer. Most jobs just ended up
with another job for a friends or neighbor.

On 2015-10-20 21:50, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 10/20/2015 5:13 PM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>
>>> Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>>
>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>>
>> I've got a laundry sink, kitchen sink, bath sink, toilet, shower and
>> outside faucet. That's 1 item too many for 1/2" lines. But that 3/4" is
>> only required after the meter, so the buried line out to the street was
>> left as is.
>>
>
> Ouch! Perfect example of why people often don't get permits and
> inspections.

True.... but.... think about it... a laundry sink, a kitchen sink,
bathroom sink, toilet shower and outside faucet.?? I can't see too many
situations where they would all be drawing water at the same time. I
have a well and a cistern , and I have a water pressure system that has
a 1/2" line coming from the pressure system. It feeds my hot water
heater, the kitchen, two bathrooms and two outdoor taps.


When my younger brother moved into a newer house "downtown" it had a gas
fireplace in the living room. He wanted a gas line out to the patio,
which was on the other side of the wall. The gas guy didn't want to run
it off the fireplace line because it would not have enough pressure for
the BBQ and the fireplace. My brother had to explain that it did not
matter because he would not be using the gas grill if it was cold enough
to need the fireplace.

On 10/20/2015 10:10 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-10-20 21:50, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 10/20/2015 5:13 PM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>>
>>>> Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>>>
>>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>>>
>>> I've got a laundry sink, kitchen sink, bath sink, toilet, shower and
>>> outside faucet. That's 1 item too many for 1/2" lines. But that 3/4" is
>>> only required after the meter, so the buried line out to the street was
>>> left as is.
>>>
>>
>> Ouch! Perfect example of why people often don't get permits and
>> inspections.
>
> True.... but.... think about it... a laundry sink, a kitchen sink,
> bathroom sink, toilet shower and outside faucet.?? I can't see too many
> situations where they would all be drawing water at the same time. I
> have a well and a cistern , and I have a water pressure system that has
> a 1/2" line coming from the pressure system. It feeds my hot water
> heater, the kitchen, two bathrooms and two outdoor taps.


No matter the size of the new pipe in the house, he still has 1/2" from
the street. No gain to be had unless that is replaced too.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:50:29 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 10/20/2015 5:13 PM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>
>>> Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>>
>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>>
>> I've got a laundry sink, kitchen sink, bath sink, toilet, shower and
>> outside faucet. That's 1 item too many for 1/2" lines. But that 3/4" is
>> only required after the meter, so the buried line out to the street was
>> left as is.
>>
>
>Ouch! Perfect example of why people often don't get permits and
>inspections.
>

What are they gonna do if I remodel my own bathroom? Besides how are
they gonna find out? Does the NSA now track the sales of bathroom
fixtures? I figure that's a great way to get forgiveness rather than
permission!!

John Kuthe...

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 3:03:39 PM UTC-7, John Kuthe wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 17:40:12 -0400, William > wrote:
>
> >actually, you cannot stand water in your kitchen sink that will
> >sterilize your dishes...150 degrees. Most modern dish washers have a
> >heater that comes on to "sterilize" the dishes after they are washed.
> >
> >I believe if I built a new home, the "tankless" water heater is the
> >way to go. No running out of hot water if someone enjoys he hot shower
> >too much.
> >
> >
> >William
>
> They sanitize, not sterilize.
>
> I'm an RN, and we had to learn all about what I call the "levels of
> filth". First, we start with the most clean: "sterile". Defined as the
> 100% abscense of anything living. Sterile technique is why we can
> perform so many surgeries with as low a rate of infection we now
> enjoy.
>
> Then from sterile, we talk about the lesser "clean" levels. "Sanitary"
> comes just below sterile. Generally characterized by lack of visible
> foreign material, and often treaterd with a sanitizing agent such as
> chlorinated or quatrinary amonia rinse, or several other accepted
> santiizing agents, such as sufficient heat for a sufficient time,
> which can sometimes reach the sterile level, but not always.
>

The difference between sterilizing and sanitizing was made clear to me
in both home winemaking (where sulfite is traditionally used) and
home brewing (where chlorine and sometimes iodine are used.)

"William" > wrote in message
...
> actually, you cannot stand water in your kitchen sink that will
> sterilize your dishes...150 degrees. Most modern dish washers have a
> heater that comes on to "sterilize" the dishes after they are washed.
>
> I believe if I built a new home, the "tankless" water heater is the
> way to go. No running out of hot water if someone enjoys he hot shower
> too much.

I think you will appreciate a combi boiler I do) I am lucky enough to
be on gas too.

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/shop/

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 3:32:24 PM UTC-4, BigC300 wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 19:37:13 +0100, "Ophelia" >
> wrote:
>
> >Or buy a combi boiler!
>
>
> what is that Ophelia? Do we have any of those here in the colonies?
>
> William

I see your first question was answered, but I'm not sure about the
second.

I see them a fair bit on This Old House, which suggests they're more
popular in the Northeast.

Around here (Michigan), the most popular heating is gas-fired
forced-air (with, if you're lucky, central air for summer, since
the ductwork is already in place).

Cindy Hamilton

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 3:43:34 PM UTC-4, Dave Smith wrote:
> On 2015-10-20 3:28 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> > Firstly 140ºF is much too hot for domestic hot water, it'll scald you
> > so you'd have to temper it with cold at the tap... what a waste of
> > energy... 115ºF is plenty hot enough for bathing/laundry.
>
>
> I figure I don't need my hot water to be any hotter than I can bear on
> my skin. When I have a shower I can crank it up to full blast.

Although it's very rare, legionella is a possibility in home hot
water systems. I'd as soon keep my water heater high enough to
kill it.

The ideal range for legionella is 68 to 122 F; at 123-130 F legionella
can survive but not multiply; at 132-140 F legionella is dead within
30 minutes.

I should time how long it takes to get hot water at the kitchen tap;
it seems like an eternity considering how small my house it, but it
can't be all that long.

Cindy Hamilton

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, Mark Storkamp wrote:
> In article >,
> Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
> > On 10/20/2015 11:29 AM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Twice as long as it used to. I was forced to remove all the 1/2" copper
> > > and put in 3/4" to meet code. The line from the street is still only
> > > 1/2", so the flow rate is no higher, but I've got twice the volume to
> > > fill. Not the contractors fault, just the idiotic city code. The house
> > > is over 100 years old and it has worked fine all this time, but the city
> > > just can't keep their hands off of things.
> > >
> >
> > Never heard of such a thing in older houses. Did you have major
> > plumbing work done? Are you talking just the main line or even on the
> > branches?
> >
> > Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>
> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.

You live in one of those repressive regimes like New Jersey or Massachusetts?
We switched from well and septic to city water and sewer and they didn't
say boo about the rest of the house.


Cindy Hamilton

On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 5:41:04 PM UTC-4, BigC300 wrote:
> actually, you cannot stand water in your kitchen sink that will
> sterilize your dishes...150 degrees. Most modern dish washers have a
> heater that comes on to "sterilize" the dishes after they are washed.
>
> I believe if I built a new home, the "tankless" water heater is the
> way to go. No running out of hot water if someone enjoys he hot shower
> too much.
>
>
> William

When our current high-E water heater dies, I'm going to lobby for a
tankless. We've already got the PVC exhaust in place.

Cindy Hamilton

Sf, that is very true about contractors vs. builders.
One has to choose both very carefully. I was able to get our builder to
change the kitchen sink location from facing an interior wall, to being
under a window. (I can't imagine a designer choosing a wall over a
window for the kitchen sink.)

N.

Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 5:41:04 PM UTC-4, BigC300 wrote:
>> actually, you cannot stand water in your kitchen sink that will
>> sterilize your dishes...150 degrees. Most modern dish washers have a
>> heater that comes on to "sterilize" the dishes after they are washed.
>>
>> I believe if I built a new home, the "tankless" water heater is the
>> way to go. No running out of hot water if someone enjoys he hot shower
>> too much.
>>
>>
>> William
>
> When our current high-E water heater dies, I'm going to lobby for a
> tankless. We've already got the PVC exhaust in place.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

Get a good measurement on your incoming winter season water temp.
Tankless used not to work that well in very cold climes or on super cold
well water.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 21:58:18 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 10/20/2015 5:47 PM, Nancy2 wrote:
>> Susan, your way is the way I have done all the remodeling in my house .. Kitchen,
>> two bathrooms, red room .. I do not know anyone at all that has a contractor pick out any
>> of the items you mention.
>>
>> Everyone I know has done all their own choosing. I can't imagine allowing any
>> contractor to do the choosing, even a known and respected contractor.
>>
>> N.
>>
>
>You'd be surprised. My step-father was a builder and in his later years
>did kitchen remodels. Many of his clients were older people in older
>houses and all were from referrals of other customers that liked his
>work. In many cases, the client would give him a budget and just tell
>him they wanted a new kitchen. He did the layout, my mother would
>choose the cabinets, countertops appliances.
>
>It was all good quality and expert installations. He did many kitchens
>like that and never had an unhappy customer. Most jobs just ended up
>with another job for a friends or neighbor.

With kitchens and bathroom remodels the contractors I've used arrived
with many catalogues and helped me choose cabinets, fixtures,
flooring, tiles, etc., they made recommendations and explained why to
choose some and not others, plus I was under no obligation to choose
from their array. However I've discovered the job turns out much
better when choosing from the contractor's suggestions... since they
do this for a living they are up on which products give good results
and which to stay away from. If you choose products on your own and
then have someone else install them there's a good chance you won't be
happy... even choosing a faucet for a bathroom vanity there are
positives and negatives in the assortment from the same manufacturer
that an experienced contractor would know. I've discovered long ago
that there is no savings in having a contractor do part of a job and
another contractor do part, or even you doing part... it always costs
a lot more to have someone fix someone elses **** up.

On 10/21/2015 6:42 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, Mark Storkamp wrote:

>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>
> You live in one of those repressive regimes like New Jersey or Massachusetts?
> We switched from well and septic to city water and sewer and they didn't
> say boo about the rest of the house.

I don't know why you include New Jersey, I never had an inspector
say anything about changing the plumbing ever. And my plumbing had
issues that I got fixed on my own last time we had the bathroom redone.

nancy

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:10:41 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2015-10-20 21:50, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 10/20/2015 5:13 PM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>>
>>>> Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>>>
>>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>>>
>>> I've got a laundry sink, kitchen sink, bath sink, toilet, shower and
>>> outside faucet. That's 1 item too many for 1/2" lines. But that 3/4" is
>>> only required after the meter, so the buried line out to the street was
>>> left as is.
>>>
>>
>> Ouch! Perfect example of why people often don't get permits and
>> inspections.
>
>True.... but.... think about it... a laundry sink, a kitchen sink,
>bathroom sink, toilet shower and outside faucet.?? I can't see too many
>situations where they would all be drawing water at the same time. I
>have a well and a cistern , and I have a water pressure system that has
>a 1/2" line coming from the pressure system. It feeds my hot water
>heater, the kitchen, two bathrooms and two outdoor taps.
>
>
>When my younger brother moved into a newer house "downtown" it had a gas
>fireplace in the living room. He wanted a gas line out to the patio,
>which was on the other side of the wall. The gas guy didn't want to run
>it off the fireplace line because it would not have enough pressure for
>the BBQ and the fireplace. My brother had to explain that it did not
>matter because he would not be using the gas grill if it was cold enough
>to need the fireplace.

I always have my propane supplier do installations including work on
gas lines, they know what they are doing. People who do their own gas
lines end up having disasters. The professionals know what size
piping to use based on the appliances and length of the runs... they
also need to protect their license by conforming to code. If your
brother wants something jerryrigged then he should do it himself. My
propane suppliers never charged more for longer runs or larger
piping... they more than make up those pennies in selling propane.
They never charged me for running the line for my outside gas grill...
they even installed the Weber natural gas to propane conversion kit
and tested everything, gratis. They are very happy to install more
appliances, the more propane I use the more money they make.

On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:25:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 10/20/2015 10:10 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2015-10-20 21:50, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 10/20/2015 5:13 PM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>>>>
>>>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>>>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>>>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>>>>
>>>> I've got a laundry sink, kitchen sink, bath sink, toilet, shower and
>>>> outside faucet. That's 1 item too many for 1/2" lines. But that 3/4" is
>>>> only required after the meter, so the buried line out to the street was
>>>> left as is.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ouch! Perfect example of why people often don't get permits and
>>> inspections.
>>
>> True.... but.... think about it... a laundry sink, a kitchen sink,
>> bathroom sink, toilet shower and outside faucet.?? I can't see too many
>> situations where they would all be drawing water at the same time. I
>> have a well and a cistern , and I have a water pressure system that has
>> a 1/2" line coming from the pressure system. It feeds my hot water
>> heater, the kitchen, two bathrooms and two outdoor taps.
>
>
>No matter the size of the new pipe in the house, he still has 1/2" from
>the street. No gain to be had unless that is replaced too.

I don't believe a 1/2" line from the street main.

On 2015-10-21 12:09 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

> I always have my propane supplier do installations including work on
> gas lines, they know what they are doing. People who do their own gas
> lines end up having disasters. The professionals know what size
> piping to use based on the appliances and length of the runs... they
> also need to protect their license by conforming to code. If your
> brother wants something jerryrigged then he should do it himself. My
> propane suppliers never charged more for longer runs or larger
> piping... they more than make up those pennies in selling propane.
> They never charged me for running the line for my outside gas grill...
> they even installed the Weber natural gas to propane conversion kit
> and tested everything, gratis. They are very happy to install more
> appliances, the more propane I use the more money they make.
>

On 2015-10-21 12:09 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>. The gas guy didn't want to run
>> it off the fireplace line because it would not have enough pressure for
>> the BBQ and the fireplace. My brother had to explain that it did not
>> matter because he would not be using the gas grill if it was cold enough
>> to need the fireplace.
>
> I always have my propane supplier do installations including work on
> gas lines, they know what they are doing. People who do their own gas
> lines end up having disasters. The professionals know what size
> piping to use based on the appliances and length of the runs... they
> also need to protect their license by conforming to code. If your
> brother wants something jerryrigged then he should do it himself.

I would not to gas repairs either, and this guy was a professional. He
was justifiably concerned that the line would not provide gas for the
fireplace and the BBQ. It was not a matter of code. It was much
simpler to simply tie into the line at the fireplace and go through the
wall to the patio.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 12:11:21 -0400, Brooklyn1
> wrote:

>On Tue, 20 Oct 2015 22:25:56 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>>On 10/20/2015 10:10 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> On 2015-10-20 21:50, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 10/20/2015 5:13 PM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>>>>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>>>>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've got a laundry sink, kitchen sink, bath sink, toilet, shower and
>>>>> outside faucet. That's 1 item too many for 1/2" lines. But that 3/4" is
>>>>> only required after the meter, so the buried line out to the street was
>>>>> left as is.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Ouch! Perfect example of why people often don't get permits and
>>>> inspections.
>>>
>>> True.... but.... think about it... a laundry sink, a kitchen sink,
>>> bathroom sink, toilet shower and outside faucet.?? I can't see too many
>>> situations where they would all be drawing water at the same time. I
>>> have a well and a cistern , and I have a water pressure system that has
>>> a 1/2" line coming from the pressure system. It feeds my hot water
>>> heater, the kitchen, two bathrooms and two outdoor taps.
>>
>>
>>No matter the size of the new pipe in the house, he still has 1/2" from
>>the street. No gain to be had unless that is replaced too.
>
>I don't believe a 1/2" line from the street main.

S'OK, you don't believe commercial bakeries use baking papers either!!
;-)

There's a vast chasm between what you believe and the way things
really are!!

John Kuthe...

On 2015-10-21 12:11 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

>>
>> No matter the size of the new pipe in the house, he still has 1/2" from
>> the street. No gain to be had unless that is replaced too.
>
> I don't believe a 1/2" line from the street main.
>

Even if it is a larger one from the water line, once it enters the house
it drops to 1/2".

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 5:32:49 AM UTC-5, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> Around here (Michigan), the most popular heating is gas-fired
> forced-air (with, if you're lucky, central air for summer, since
> the ductwork is already in place).
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
>
That's what I have. It's called a split pack around here.
Gas central heat and central electric air conditioner, both
using the same duct work. (Gas for cooking and water heater,
too.)

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 04:10:29 -0700 (PDT), Nancy2
> wrote:

> Sf, that is very true about contractors vs. builders.
> One has to choose both very carefully. I was able to get our builder to
> change the kitchen sink location from facing an interior wall, to being
> under a window. (I can't imagine a designer choosing a wall over a
> window for the kitchen sink.)
>

That's great! You must have put your money on the table and then
asked for the variance because I know from personal experience it
doesn't work the other way around. I didn't want to move anyway, so
it worked out for me.

--

sf

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:32:44 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

> Around here (Michigan), the most popular heating is gas-fired
> forced-air (with, if you're lucky, central air for summer, since
> the ductwork is already in place).

When I lived in the country on the other side of Michigan, our winter
fuel was oil (central forced air).

--

sf

Tankless water heaters are regulated by municipal codes about how close they can be
to other components of your heating and cooling system. Here, it would mean
its own vent pipe through an outside wall, a certain number of feet or inches
away from any other vent.

If you are building new, it can be planned for; but here in this cold climate,
I didn't want to put another hole in the "skin" of the house.

N.

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 1:13:04 PM UTC-4, sf wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:32:44 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> > wrote:
>
> > Around here (Michigan), the most popular heating is gas-fired
> > forced-air (with, if you're lucky, central air for summer, since
> > the ductwork is already in place).
>
> When I lived in the country on the other side of Michigan, our winter
> fuel was oil (central forced air).

Yes, oil is very common (as is propane) where natural gas is unavailable.
But most people in the big population centers in Michigan (which is most
people in Michigan) have natural gas.

We had oil when I was a kid (Detroit suburbs), and my current house had
propane when we bought it. Both of those houses now have natural gas.

Cindy Hamilton

On Wednesday, October 21, 2015 at 2:04:39 PM UTC-4, Nancy2 wrote:
> Tankless water heaters are regulated by municipal codes about how close they can be
> to other components of your heating and cooling system. Here, it would mean
> its own vent pipe through an outside wall, a certain number of feet or inches
> away from any other vent.
>
> If you are building new, it can be planned for; but here in this cold climate,
> I didn't want to put another hole in the "skin" of the house.
>
> N.

I can't tell who you're replying to, but we've got that covered.
When we replaced our propane furnace (with a rusted heat exchanger)
with a new natural gas furnace, we abandoned the chimney and
vented the new high-E furnace out the north side of the house.

When we replaced our electric water heater with our current
high-E tank, we vented it out the south side of the house.

In each case, we rented a diamond core drill to get through the
masonry. I still have core samples of fieldstone, brick, and
cinderblock (it's black, so I assume cinder) in a drawer someplace.

To return to the original subject of this thread (and make it
at least peripherally related to cooking), I timed the kitchen
tap today. It took about a minute to get ripping hot water
out of it.

Cindy Hamilton

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:39:49 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 3:43:34 PM UTC-4, Dave Smith wrote:
>> On 2015-10-20 3:28 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>>
>> > Firstly 140ºF is much too hot for domestic hot water, it'll scald you
>> > so you'd have to temper it with cold at the tap... what a waste of
>> > energy... 115ºF is plenty hot enough for bathing/laundry.
>>
>>
>> I figure I don't need my hot water to be any hotter than I can bear on
>> my skin. When I have a shower I can crank it up to full blast.
>
>Although it's very rare, legionella is a possibility in home hot
>water systems. I'd as soon keep my water heater high enough to
>kill it.
>
>The ideal range for legionella is 68 to 122 F; at 123-130 F legionella
>can survive but not multiply; at 132-140 F legionella is dead within
>30 minutes.
>
>I should time how long it takes to get hot water at the kitchen tap;
>it seems like an eternity considering how small my house it, but it
>can't be all that long.
>
>Cindy Hamilton

It also depends on ambient temperature, it can take twice as long here
in winter as water is much colder out of the pressurized well tank and
piping is colder... in summer hot water is out of the kitchen tap in
about 45 seconds, can double that in winter when temps are about zero
or lower. On average hot water out of the tap here is about a minute,
but can be half that if the hot water was used like an hour ago. I
try to do as much with hot water all at the same time, especially
since I mostly wash dishes by hand so I save the few dishes to wash
them all at once... but still the tankless on demand water heater is a
huge money saver... people with electric hot water taks don't realize
how often it comes on and how long it runs because it's silent, but
when I used a gas fired tank I sure knew how much it ran, even when no
hot water was used... I'd hear that thing come on several times at
night and run a long time... all wasted energy/money. I'd say more
than half my water heating fuel was totally wasted... with my new
tankless on demand no fuel is wasted. Plus I have the hot water set
to my comfort level (115ºF) so I rarely need to temper with cold. I
figue by not having a tankless on demand water heater for the twelve
years I've been here I've wasted at least $12,000 by heating hot water
for nothing, yoose with familys are wasting a whole lot more, a family
of four is conservatively wasting $25,000 in ten years. Naturally for
yoose who rarely or don't bathe. . . .

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 03:42:55 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

>On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 5:13:52 PM UTC-4, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>> > On 10/20/2015 11:29 AM, Mark Storkamp wrote:
>> >
>> > >
>> > > Twice as long as it used to. I was forced to remove all the 1/2" copper
>> > > and put in 3/4" to meet code. The line from the street is still only
>> > > 1/2", so the flow rate is no higher, but I've got twice the volume to
>> > > fill. Not the contractors fault, just the idiotic city code. The house
>> > > is over 100 years old and it has worked fine all this time, but the city
>> > > just can't keep their hands off of things.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Never heard of such a thing in older houses. Did you have major
>> > plumbing work done? Are you talking just the main line or even on the
>> > branches?
>> >
>> > Idiotic codes and inspectors is why a lot of people never get permits.
>>
>> Bathroom was replaced. Once any part of the plumbing is touched, the
>> whole house has to come up to code. Fortunately electrical is different.
>> Only the run from the box to the bathroom had to be updated.
>
>You live in one of those repressive regimes like New Jersey or Massachusetts?
>We switched from well and septic to city water and sewer and they didn't
>say boo about the rest of the house.

It's impossible to get homeowner insurance without plumbing,
electrical, etc. certification... or if you have an electrical fire
insurance won't pay when they discover you made changes without having
a licensed electrician sign off on it... and no licensed electrition
will sign off on work you did.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 08:47:07 -0600, Questa > wrote:

>Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>> On Tuesday, October 20, 2015 at 5:41:04 PM UTC-4, BigC300 wrote:
>>> actually, you cannot stand water in your kitchen sink that will
>>> sterilize your dishes...150 degrees. Most modern dish washers have a
>>> heater that comes on to "sterilize" the dishes after they are washed.
>>>
>>> I believe if I built a new home, the "tankless" water heater is the
>>> way to go. No running out of hot water if someone enjoys he hot shower
>>> too much.
>>>
>>>
>>> William
>>
>> When our current high-E water heater dies, I'm going to lobby for a
>> tankless. We've already got the PVC exhaust in place.
>>
>> Cindy Hamilton
>>
>
>Get a good measurement on your incoming winter season water temp.
>Tankless used not to work that well in very cold climes or on super cold
>well water.

That's BS, tankless works fine with water at winter temps, unless the
water is frozen... but then no kind of water heater will work.

On 10/21/2015 4:27 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:

>
> It's impossible to get homeowner insurance without plumbing,
> electrical, etc. certification... or if you have an electrical fire
> insurance won't pay when they discover you made changes without having
> a licensed electrician sign off on it... and no licensed electrition
> will sign off on work you did.
>

You need the inspections for the original Certificate of Occupancy but
after that, no one checks. I've been q homeowner for 50 years in two
states and no insurance company ever asked for anything. Insurance
company may drop you after if not to code, but they will pay.

On 10/21/2015 7:10 AM, Nancy2 wrote:
> Sf, that is very true about contractors vs. builders.
> One has to choose both very carefully. I was able to get our builder to
> change the kitchen sink location from facing an interior wall, to being
> under a window. (I can't imagine a designer choosing a wall over a
> window for the kitchen sink.)
>
> N.
>

My choice is a window also, but my first house was one of thousands
built with the same design with sink on a wall. It was not practical to
have it under the window.

On 2015-10-21 4:04 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
> It also depends on ambient temperature, it can take twice as long here
> in winter as water is much colder out of the pressurized well tank and
> piping is colder... in summer hot water is out of the kitchen tap in
> about 45 seconds, can double that in winter when temps are about zero
> or lower. On average hot water out of the tap here is about a minute,
> but can be half that if the hot water was used like an hour ago. I
> try to do as much with hot water all at the same time, especially
> since I mostly wash dishes by hand so I save the few dishes to wash
> them all at once.

That makes good sense. The hot water sitting in the pipes radiates heat
and cools off when it is just sitting there. You cut down on that wasted
heating by using the hot water while it is still hot.

I used to start work early in the morning and I found ways to save time.
Plus, being on a well and a a cistern, I try to conserve water as much
as possible. I try to kill two birds with one stone when showering. I
get into the shower and turn on the hot water. I use the cold water to
wet the soap and start lathering up. By the time I am all lathered up
the water is hot and I rinse off.

On 2015-10-21 5:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>
> You need the inspections for the original Certificate of Occupancy but
> after that, no one checks. I've been q homeowner for 50 years in two
> states and no insurance company ever asked for anything. Insurance
> company may drop you after if not to code, but they will pay.


FWIW.... my insurance company sent out an inspector about 6 years ago.
I am surprised at the stuff the guy missed. He didn't even bother
looking at my barn, and it is in rough shape. I am surprised they didn't
drop the coverage on it, or else order major repairs. The only problem I
had was with the oil tank. Since it was more than 25 years old I had to
replace it. Hell, it was probably closer to 50 years.

The annoying part of that was that after spending $2000 on installing a
new oil tank and having an old furnace that was due for replacement,
month or two after the tank was installed the gas company brought a line
down our road and it ended in my front yard. I would be able to hook up
to it for free. I waited a couple years before I switched to oil. If I
waited a couple weeks I could have switched to gas right away and saved
that $2000.

On Wed, 21 Oct 2015 17:22:31 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 10/21/2015 4:27 PM, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>>
>> It's impossible to get homeowner insurance without plumbing,
>> electrical, etc. certification... or if you have an electrical fire
>> insurance won't pay when they discover you made changes without having
>> a licensed electrician sign off on it... and no licensed electrition
>> will sign off on work you did.
>>
>
>You need the inspections for the original Certificate of Occupancy but
>after that, no one checks. I've been q homeowner for 50 years in two
>states and no insurance company ever asked for anything. Insurance
>company may drop you after if not to code, but they will pay.

You haven't purchased a house for a long time (50 years according to
you), insurance companys check now... when I bought this house 12
years ago Allstate sent out an inspector and he declined the
electrical service, as it met code 55 years ago but was now borderline
because the service wasn't in hard conduit. Eventually they did
accept it but after I sent photos showing that the markings were from
paint missing due to the wire clamps moved from adding vinyl siding
and not from damaged wire insulation. Nowadays insurance companys
check everything before writing a homeowners policy. This house has
only a 100 Amp service because that was considered top of the line
back then but nowadays a 200 Amp service is what new homes require. I
don't need the upgraded service as I have no intentions of having a
pool, hot tub, sauna or any other high energy use electrical goodies.
The electrician I use said I don't need more amperage for my
lifestyle, in fact since I've been going LED and I use propane I could
easily manage with a 60 Amp service.