On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je�us wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:25:35 -0300, wrote:
>
>>>
>>> No offense to any Brits but given the similarity of the sentiments that
>>> brought Brexit to those that Trump espouses, I hope the British situation is
>>> one red hot boiling mess come November so people can see what happens when
>>> you embrace nationalism, xenophobia, and bigotry as national policy. I'm
>>> amazed that no one remembers the old saw "those who fail to learn from
>>> history are doomed to repeat it". This kind of nationalistic sentiment in
>>> Europe is what gave us two world wars in the last century. People seem to
>>> forget that before the Middle East was a tinder box, there was Europe, and
>>> it was ugly for centuries. Seems like the Brits have forgotten that and are
>>> on a hard march back to the early Twentieth century.
>
> Perhaps the lesson of what happens when you concentrate power has also
> been forgotten.
>
>> I heard someone the other day comparing Trump to Hitler, pre-WWII. At
>> first I laughed but then I could understand his point. I look back
>> at early Hitler speeches and think 'what a ridiculous little man' and
>> hey, many of us look at Trump and that what a ridiculous man he is.
>>
>> Perhaps sadly the world needs to hate and so it goes until there is a
>> war and a few lessons learned.
>
> What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
> misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
> All because they want to leave the EU...

Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:56:32 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je?us wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:25:35 -0300, wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> No offense to any Brits but given the similarity of the sentiments that
>>>> brought Brexit to those that Trump espouses, I hope the British situation is
>>>> one red hot boiling mess come November so people can see what happens when
>>>> you embrace nationalism, xenophobia, and bigotry as national policy. I'm
>>>> amazed that no one remembers the old saw "those who fail to learn from
>>>> history are doomed to repeat it". This kind of nationalistic sentiment in
>>>> Europe is what gave us two world wars in the last century. People seem to
>>>> forget that before the Middle East was a tinder box, there was Europe, and
>>>> it was ugly for centuries. Seems like the Brits have forgotten that and are
>>>> on a hard march back to the early Twentieth century.
>>
>> Perhaps the lesson of what happens when you concentrate power has also
>> been forgotten.
>>
>>> I heard someone the other day comparing Trump to Hitler, pre-WWII. At
>>> first I laughed but then I could understand his point. I look back
>>> at early Hitler speeches and think 'what a ridiculous little man' and
>>> hey, many of us look at Trump and that what a ridiculous man he is.
>>>
>>> Perhaps sadly the world needs to hate and so it goes until there is a
>>> war and a few lessons learned.
>>
>> What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
>> misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
>> All because they want to leave the EU...
>
>Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
>refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
>take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
>part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
>lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
>them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.

Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
long term?

In article >, says...
>
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:56:32 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
> >Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants
and
> >refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
> >take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
> >part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
> >lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
> >them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.
>
> Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
> a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
> from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
> long term?

In the US.

On 2016-06-25 6:27 PM, Je�us wrote:
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:56:32 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
>> On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je?us wrote:

>>> What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
>>> misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
>>> All because they want to leave the EU...
>>
>> Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
>> refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
>> take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
>> part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
>> lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
>> them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.
>
> Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
> a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
> from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
> long term?
>


I think that when they came up with the idea of freedom of movement and
residence across the continent they had meant it for their citizens and
had never imagined that there would be fleets of boats arrived at their
shores with thousands and thousands of people basically crashing their
borders and having to provide support for them.

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:52:12 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>On 2016-06-25 6:27 PM, Je?us wrote:
>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:56:32 -0400, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je?us wrote:
>
>>>> What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
>>>> misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
>>>> All because they want to leave the EU...
>>>
>>> Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
>>> refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
>>> take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
>>> part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
>>> lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
>>> them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.
>>
>> Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
>> a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
>> from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
>> long term?
>>
>I think that when they came up with the idea of freedom of movement and
>residence across the continent they had meant it for their citizens and
>had never imagined that there would be fleets of boats arrived at their
>shores with thousands and thousands of people basically crashing their
>borders and having to provide support for them.

I don't think they did either. Just more evidence of how short sighted
and naive the concept was to begin with.

On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:52:12 -0400, Dave Smith
> wrote:

>fleets of boats

how about swimmers across the Rio Grande river...millions and millions

William

In article >,
says...
>
> On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je?us wrote:
> > On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:25:35 -0300, wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> No offense to any Brits but given the similarity of the sentiments that
> >>> brought Brexit to those that Trump espouses, I hope the British situation is
> >>> one red hot boiling mess come November so people can see what happens when
> >>> you embrace nationalism, xenophobia, and bigotry as national policy. I'm
> >>> amazed that no one remembers the old saw "those who fail to learn from
> >>> history are doomed to repeat it". This kind of nationalistic sentiment in
> >>> Europe is what gave us two world wars in the last century. People seem to
> >>> forget that before the Middle East was a tinder box, there was Europe, and
> >>> it was ugly for centuries. Seems like the Brits have forgotten that and are
> >>> on a hard march back to the early Twentieth century.
> >
> > Perhaps the lesson of what happens when you concentrate power has also
> > been forgotten.
> >
> >> I heard someone the other day comparing Trump to Hitler, pre-WWII. At
> >> first I laughed but then I could understand his point. I look back
> >> at early Hitler speeches and think 'what a ridiculous little man' and
> >> hey, many of us look at Trump and that what a ridiculous man he is.
> >>
> >> Perhaps sadly the world needs to hate and so it goes until there is a
> >> war and a few lessons learned.
> >
> > What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
> > misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
> > All because they want to leave the EU...
>
> Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
> refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
> take them because they are in the EU

You're confusing unrelated issues. EU CITIZENS have the right of
entry and to work in any other EU state.

Anyone who is not an EU citizen doesn't acquire that status or right
just by entering the EU as a refugee or economic migrant from elsewhere.
Applying for citizenship takes years and acceptance is not automatic.

Brexit is highly unlikely to make any difference to the legal
immigration rights of European citizens. EEA trading partners Norway,
Switzerland, Iceland and Lichstenstein all enjoy the same freedom across
the EU, even though they are not EU members. Britain (outside the EU)
will almost certainly come to some similar arrangement.

Janet UK

In article >, says...
>
> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:56:32 -0400, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>
> >On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je?us wrote:
> >> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:25:35 -0300, wrote:
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>> No offense to any Brits but given the similarity of the sentiments that
> >>>> brought Brexit to those that Trump espouses, I hope the British situation is
> >>>> one red hot boiling mess come November so people can see what happens when
> >>>> you embrace nationalism, xenophobia, and bigotry as national policy. I'm
> >>>> amazed that no one remembers the old saw "those who fail to learn from
> >>>> history are doomed to repeat it". This kind of nationalistic sentiment in
> >>>> Europe is what gave us two world wars in the last century. People seem to
> >>>> forget that before the Middle East was a tinder box, there was Europe, and
> >>>> it was ugly for centuries. Seems like the Brits have forgotten that and are
> >>>> on a hard march back to the early Twentieth century.
> >>
> >> Perhaps the lesson of what happens when you concentrate power has also
> >> been forgotten.
> >>
> >>> I heard someone the other day comparing Trump to Hitler, pre-WWII. At
> >>> first I laughed but then I could understand his point. I look back
> >>> at early Hitler speeches and think 'what a ridiculous little man' and
> >>> hey, many of us look at Trump and that what a ridiculous man he is.
> >>>
> >>> Perhaps sadly the world needs to hate and so it goes until there is a
> >>> war and a few lessons learned.
> >>
> >> What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
> >> misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
> >> All because they want to leave the EU...
> >
> >Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
> >refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
> >take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
> >part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
> >lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
> >them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.
>
> Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
> a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
> from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
> long term?

A couple of thousand years between all four nations in the British
isles; and the many waves of foreign immigrants absorbed here over
centuries.

Janet UK

On 2016-06-26 10:38 AM, Janet wrote:

>> Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
>> a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
>> from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
>> long term?
>
> A couple of thousand years between all four nations in the British
> isles; and the many waves of foreign immigrants absorbed here over
> centuries.

When you go back a couple thousand years you see waves of migrants who
basically invaded and took over, The Picts were pretty well established
in the the north at one point and then the Celts came.
The Romans came and exerted their influence, followed by the Jutes,
Anlgles, Saxons and the Normans came too. A united England was a long,
slow process. There were various kingdoms within the land that is now
England.

On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 15:38:00 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >, says...
>>
>> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:56:32 -0400, Dave Smith
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je?us wrote:
>> >> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:25:35 -0300, wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> No offense to any Brits but given the similarity of the sentiments that
>> >>>> brought Brexit to those that Trump espouses, I hope the British situation is
>> >>>> one red hot boiling mess come November so people can see what happens when
>> >>>> you embrace nationalism, xenophobia, and bigotry as national policy. I'm
>> >>>> amazed that no one remembers the old saw "those who fail to learn from
>> >>>> history are doomed to repeat it". This kind of nationalistic sentiment in
>> >>>> Europe is what gave us two world wars in the last century. People seem to
>> >>>> forget that before the Middle East was a tinder box, there was Europe, and
>> >>>> it was ugly for centuries. Seems like the Brits have forgotten that and are
>> >>>> on a hard march back to the early Twentieth century.
>> >>
>> >> Perhaps the lesson of what happens when you concentrate power has also
>> >> been forgotten.
>> >>
>> >>> I heard someone the other day comparing Trump to Hitler, pre-WWII. At
>> >>> first I laughed but then I could understand his point. I look back
>> >>> at early Hitler speeches and think 'what a ridiculous little man' and
>> >>> hey, many of us look at Trump and that what a ridiculous man he is.
>> >>>
>> >>> Perhaps sadly the world needs to hate and so it goes until there is a
>> >>> war and a few lessons learned.
>> >>
>> >> What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
>> >> misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
>> >> All because they want to leave the EU...
>> >
>> >Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
>> >refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
>> >take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
>> >part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
>> >lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
>> >them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.
>>
>> Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
>> a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
>> from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
>> long term?
>
> A couple of thousand years between all four nations in the British
>isles; and the many waves of foreign immigrants absorbed here over
>centuries.

Hmm, that was a gradual process over many centuries and not some
bureaucratic decision from afar quickly put into effect (for the most
part).

In article >, says...
>
> On Sun, 26 Jun 2016 15:38:00 +0100, Janet > wrote:
>
> >In article >, says...
> >>
> >> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 17:56:32 -0400, Dave Smith
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> >On 2016-06-25 4:51 PM, Je?us wrote:
> >> >> On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 07:25:35 -0300, wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> No offense to any Brits but given the similarity of the sentiments that
> >> >>>> brought Brexit to those that Trump espouses, I hope the British situation is
> >> >>>> one red hot boiling mess come November so people can see what happens when
> >> >>>> you embrace nationalism, xenophobia, and bigotry as national policy. I'm
> >> >>>> amazed that no one remembers the old saw "those who fail to learn from
> >> >>>> history are doomed to repeat it". This kind of nationalistic sentiment in
> >> >>>> Europe is what gave us two world wars in the last century. People seem to
> >> >>>> forget that before the Middle East was a tinder box, there was Europe, and
> >> >>>> it was ugly for centuries. Seems like the Brits have forgotten that and are
> >> >>>> on a hard march back to the early Twentieth century.
> >> >>
> >> >> Perhaps the lesson of what happens when you concentrate power has also
> >> >> been forgotten.
> >> >>
> >> >>> I heard someone the other day comparing Trump to Hitler, pre-WWII. At
> >> >>> first I laughed but then I could understand his point. I look back
> >> >>> at early Hitler speeches and think 'what a ridiculous little man' and
> >> >>> hey, many of us look at Trump and that what a ridiculous man he is.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Perhaps sadly the world needs to hate and so it goes until there is a
> >> >>> war and a few lessons learned.
> >> >>
> >> >> What an utterly ridiculous exchange. Hitler and wars, rampant
> >> >> misguided nationalism by what must be ignorant and racist people.
> >> >> All because they want to leave the EU...
> >> >
> >> >Having to deal with hordes of illegal immigrants, economic migrants and
> >> >refugees who are heading for green pastures in Britain and having to
> >> >take them because they are in the EU is a valid reason not to want to be
> >> >part of that. Britain and the rest of Europe were already accepting
> >> >lots of legitimate immigrants and refugees. There has been a flood of
> >> >them and Europe and its resources and being overwhelmed.
> >>
> >> Yes, exactly. There are plenty of very practical reasons why the EU is
> >> a flawed concept (aside from those who stand to personally benefit
> >> from it). Historically, when has this sort of thing ever worked in the
> >> long term?
> >
> > A couple of thousand years between all four nations in the British
> >isles; and the many waves of foreign immigrants absorbed here over
> >centuries.
>
> Hmm, that was a gradual process over many centuries

Exactly. THE LONG TERM

It's a response to your question "Historically, when has this sort of
thing ever worked in the long term?"

Janet UK




and not some
> bureaucratic decision from afar quickly put into effect (for the most
> part).