On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 01:47:00 -0000, Janet > wrote:

>In article >, says...
>>
>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 12:08:50 -0000, Janet > wrote:
>>
>> >In article >, says...
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 19:53:54 -0800 (PST), dsi1 >
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Tuesday, December 6, 2016 at 5:47:11 AM UTC-10, Ophelia wrote:
>> >> >> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/tr...k-life-UK.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >My wife was quite impressed with your green and pleasant land. She yearns to live there one day. That's the absolute truth.
>> >>
>> >> I hope you don't have any life insurance cover.
>> >
>> > What on earth do you mean by that?
>>
>> Just my sense of humour at work again. The implication was that his
>> wife wants to live in The U.K and Dsi1 never said he wanted to. So
>> she's either divorces him and leaves, or...
>>
>> Ohh... you thought it was a slight on the U.K?
>
> No, I just thought you were bananas (this is not a slight on Tasmania)
>
> ;-)

I like eating bananas and I ain't no cannibal...

OB food: I'm back into making smoothies again lately, mostly with
berries but also bananas and mango. Add some Greek yoghurt and almond
or macadamia milk, maybe some honey occasionally. Just the thing now
that it's summer here (or trying to be summer at least).

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 07:46:50 +1100, Bruce >
wrote:

>In article >, Jeßus says...
>>
>> On Fri, 09 Dec 2016 23:40:36 +0800, JBurns >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I pulled you up on your use of "Feminazi"because I know that you are
>> >better than that, and then you sank to this?
>>
>> I guess you don't appreciate black humour, or can recognise it when
>> you see it. Would a wink emoticon have helped?
>>
>> >My comment stands, Bruce must be an idiot if he knows not what his
>> >house holds!
>>
>> Well, sure. I'd expect to know if I had a dryer too.
>>
>> Maybe Bruce is a multi-millionaire, has servants. and has no need to
>> visit his own laundry. I hear he owns Amsterdam's largest clog
>> factory, ethically employing retired vegetarian brothel workers
>> remotely from his bunker in northern NSW.
>
>Very close. I think we have an icecream machine somewhere in a cupboard,
>but I could be wrong. Is this shocking? I just tell a servant to get me
>some icecream. I don't care how they do it.

You're like some ugly throwback to the days of European colonisation.
You unspeakable monster.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 08:45:48 -0800 (PST), wrote:

>free food with pastmites use code: euiz

Kill yourself.

In article >, Ophelia says...
>
> "Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
> ...
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 10:03:58 AM UTC-5, Ophelia wrote:
> > "Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 6:41:50 PM UTC-5, Jill McQuown wrote:
> > > On 12/9/2016 5:07 PM, Ophelia wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I see meters outside here too.
> > > >
> > > The *main* electrical box is outside of my house attached to the back
> > > wall. That's where the guy reads the meter. I'm not convinced they
> > > actually "read" the meter anymore. It's rare I see someone outside
> > > checking it. I have seen someone from time to time.
> >
> > We've got smart meters. They report their readings back to the
> > utility via RF signals. So, no guy reading the meter.
> >
> >
> >
> > =============================
> >
> >
> > We avoid those like the plague! They have too much control! For example
> > they can remotely cut the power to your house or some cases to various
> > circuits in the house if they feel that demand in your area is too high.
>
> They might be able to cut power to the whole house, but I know for a
> fact that our connection won't permit individual circuits to be cut.
> They won't cut power to the entire house in case someone is using
> medical equipment.
>
> In any event, we have a generator that comes on automatically if
> there's a power outage.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
>
> ==============
>
>
> We have generators but they don't come on automatically.
>
> We prefer them not to have so much power over us and so long as it not
> compulsory we won't have those meters.

I wouldn't mind it if it only told them the information that otherwise
the meter reader collects. It seems a bit silly that they have to
physically come to our house every so many months to read our meter.

On 12/9/2016 10:34 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/9/2016 10:27 PM, wrote:
>> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 8:38:08 PM UTC-6, wrote:
>
>>>
>>> I can't see the sense in using old appliances that suck up power!
>>>
>>>
>> Think about it. You have a refrigerator that is 20+ years old
>> and for the sake of round numbers it costs you $15 per month to
>> operate. It's still running, keeping food well chilled and freezes
>> ice and other things rock hard. To 'save money' you go out and
>> spend $1500 for a new 'fridge that will cost you $10 per month to
>> do the same job as your other one. It's going to take you several
>> years to recoup that $1500 you spent to 'save money.'
>>
>> If a new appliance will save you MANY dollars per month or in a
>> years time then I'd say, maybe, go for it. But just to buy a new
>> appliance when you've got one humming right along and is paid for
>> is not financially sound.
>>
>
> In most cases, you are correct. I got rid of an old 14 cu ft fridge and
> replaced it with a new 18 cu ft basic model. It was a 40 month payback.
> As for the kitchen fridge, it is a fancier model and I doubt I'll ever
> see any payback.
>
> Energy Star dryers are at least 20% more efficient than older models. In
> Jill's case it is probably less than $10 a month to use so she could
> save $2 a month. Payback for a $500 dryer is 250 months. Even for a
> big family it can be a long payback.
>
>
OTOH I have a Miele washer/dryer set that probably cost me a lot some 15
years ago. I've never regretted it. The washer can spin at up to 1600rpm
which means that dryer time is much reduced. It also heats the water to
various temps up to 90C which has been a boon at times.
Graham

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 5:53:05 AM UTC-6, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> We've got smart meters. They report their readings back to the
> utility via RF signals. So, no guy reading the meter.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
>
Same here. I haven't seen a 'meter reader' here in umpteen
years.

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 6:23:40 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> Apart from a big bill every month what about the environmental side of
> needlessly consuming that much power?
>
I don't think me or Jill getting a enw energy efficient refrigerator
is going to have any impact on the enviroment by consuming a bit
more electricity.
>
> A friend put their old fridge down in the basement and it kept on
> running for nearly twenty years. Imagine their surprise when their
> first power bill was half what it had been for years.
>
If they kept nothing in that refrigerator then they were stupid.
>
> I can't see spending $1500 on a fridge - regular two door ones are far
> less.
>
I've got a 25 c.f. freezer on top 22 year old Whirlpool refrigerator
now. If and when this one dies I'll be buying either a French door
or a single door, freezer on the bottom, model. I will not be looking
at rinky dink 16 or 18 c.f. models.

In article >, Jeßus says...
>
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 07:46:50 +1100, Bruce >
> wrote:
>
> >In article >, Jeßus says...
> >>
> >> On Fri, 09 Dec 2016 23:40:36 +0800, JBurns >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >I pulled you up on your use of "Feminazi"because I know that you are
> >> >better than that, and then you sank to this?
> >>
> >> I guess you don't appreciate black humour, or can recognise it when
> >> you see it. Would a wink emoticon have helped?
> >>
> >> >My comment stands, Bruce must be an idiot if he knows not what his
> >> >house holds!
> >>
> >> Well, sure. I'd expect to know if I had a dryer too.
> >>
> >> Maybe Bruce is a multi-millionaire, has servants. and has no need to
> >> visit his own laundry. I hear he owns Amsterdam's largest clog
> >> factory, ethically employing retired vegetarian brothel workers
> >> remotely from his bunker in northern NSW.
> >
> >Very close. I think we have an icecream machine somewhere in a cupboard,
> >but I could be wrong. Is this shocking? I just tell a servant to get me
> >some icecream. I don't care how they do it.
>
> You're like some ugly throwback to the days of European colonisation.
> You unspeakable monster.

lol

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 6:27:37 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>
> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:29:44 -0800 (PST), "
> > wrote:
> >>
> >How many people are living in your home?
>
>
> Just me and the cat - but my friends are widows too and if anything I
> do far more cooking than them, one of them stores saucepans in her
> oven, so all things being pretty much equal, it's their dryers running
> up the bill. When I lived in a house I generally had the washer and
> dryer in the basement, so just to walk along the hall to the washers
> and dryers is no big deal. In addition, one of them has to replace
> her washer, it's biting the dust.
>
>
I had a former boss who when she got home from work what she wore
to work that day was tossed in the washer to wash and then dried.
It might have been a tiny load but those tiny loads add up at the
end of the month. Her excuse was if she wanted to wear that outfit
again later in the week it would be clean; seemed like a waste of
water, detergent, and energy to me. Maybe your friends are 'tiny'
washers and to them it doesn't seem like they're using much water,
detergent, and enerby.

In article >,
says...
>
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 5:53:05 AM UTC-6, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > We've got smart meters. They report their readings back to the
> > utility via RF signals. So, no guy reading the meter.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
> >
> Same here. I haven't seen a 'meter reader' here in umpteen
> years.

What if one shows up and they find out they've been undercharging you
for the past 10 years? You might be like this:
http://tinyurl.com/gplexrw

On 12/10/2016 1:17 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 6:27:37 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:29:44 -0800 (PST), "
>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>> How many people are living in your home?
>>
>>
>> Just me and the cat - but my friends are widows too and if anything I
>> do far more cooking than them, one of them stores saucepans in her
>> oven, so all things being pretty much equal, it's their dryers running
>> up the bill. When I lived in a house I generally had the washer and
>> dryer in the basement, so just to walk along the hall to the washers
>> and dryers is no big deal. In addition, one of them has to replace
>> her washer, it's biting the dust.
>>
>>
> I had a former boss who when she got home from work what she wore
> to work that day was tossed in the washer to wash and then dried.
> It might have been a tiny load but those tiny loads add up at the
> end of the month. Her excuse was if she wanted to wear that outfit
> again later in the week it would be clean; seemed like a waste of
> water, detergent, and energy to me. Maybe your friends are 'tiny'
> washers and to them it doesn't seem like they're using much water,
> detergent, and enerby.
>
When I arrived in Canada, I was appalled at the amount of laundry some
friends with teenage daughters went through. It seemed ridiculous that
they had to have freshly laundered jeans *every* day.

On 12/10/2016 5:22 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/10/2016 3:09 AM, S Viemeister wrote:
>> On 12/9/2016 10:07 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>>
>>> I see meters outside here too.
>>>
>> Our meter is just outside the kitchen door, but the consumer unit/'fuse
>> box' is in a cupboard inside the house.
>> The electric company rarely reads it, though. I send in a reading every
>> quarter; if I'm not here at meter-reading time, they estimate my usage.
>
> These days meters can be read by a car driving up the street. Newer
> ones can be read by a computer at an office. Eventually your supplier
> will probably upgrade to 1980's technology.

The house is quite some distance from the road, and the meter is on the
side opposite the road, so not likely to be readable by a car driving by.
I understand that some meters use SIM cards to communicate with the
supplier, but mobile/cell service is spotty up here in the wilderness.
If the need for remotely-readable meters causes mobile services to be
improved, I'd be very pleased.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 12:17:36 -0800 (PST), "
> wrote:

>On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 6:27:37 AM UTC-6, wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 9 Dec 2016 19:29:44 -0800 (PST), "
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >How many people are living in your home?
>>
>>
>> Just me and the cat - but my friends are widows too and if anything I
>> do far more cooking than them, one of them stores saucepans in her
>> oven, so all things being pretty much equal, it's their dryers running
>> up the bill. When I lived in a house I generally had the washer and
>> dryer in the basement, so just to walk along the hall to the washers
>> and dryers is no big deal. In addition, one of them has to replace
>> her washer, it's biting the dust.
>>
>>
>I had a former boss who when she got home from work what she wore
>to work that day was tossed in the washer to wash and then dried.
>It might have been a tiny load but those tiny loads add up at the
>end of the month. Her excuse was if she wanted to wear that outfit
>again later in the week it would be clean; seemed like a waste of
>water, detergent, and energy to me. Maybe your friends are 'tiny'
>washers and to them it doesn't seem like they're using much water,
>detergent, and enerby.

They are all far more practical than that.

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:

> When I arrived in Canada, I was appalled at the amount of laundry some
> friends with teenage daughters went through. It seemed ridiculous that
> they had to have freshly laundered jeans *every* day.

The only clothing I wear more than once is if I'm working on some
DIY project like painting. Then I'll wear the same thing Saturday
and Sunday while I'm working. Otherwise it's fresh clothing every
day from the skin out.

Cindy Hamilton

On 12/9/2016 5:41 PM, jmcquown wrote:
> On 12/9/2016 5:07 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>>
>> I see meters outside here too.
>>
> The *main* electrical box is outside of my house attached to the back
> wall. That's where the guy reads the meter. I'm not convinced they
> actually "read" the meter anymore. It's rare I see someone outside
> checking it. I have seen someone from time to time.
>
> When I had to deal with Memphis Light, Gas & Water in Shelby County, TN
> I occasionally got "estimated" bills. That irritated the heck out of
> me. What, you're just going to guess how much power and water I've used
> and send me a bill? Yes. It was a true monopoly.
>
> Jill
My box is mounted to the side of my house in the backyard. Meter
readers used to go into the backyard to read it. However, all of our
meters were converted to "smart" meters several years ago. Trucks from
utility companies now stop in front of the house for just a few minutes,
and the meters are read remotely.

MaryL

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-6, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> On 12/10/2016 7:23 AM, wrote:
>
> > I can't see spending $1500 on a fridge - regular two door ones are far
> > less.
> >
> Probably $800 for a basic model. Some of us want all the extra goodies
> though so we pay more. It doesn't make the beer any better.
>
>
Hahahaaaaaa, you nailed it. But yes, I do want all the extra
goodies/bells & whistles if and when I buy a new chill chest.

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 2:19:22 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote:
>
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> > I haven't seen a 'meter reader' here in umpteen
> > years.
>
> What if one shows up and they find out they've been undercharging you
> for the past 10 years? You might be like this:
> http://tinyurl.com/gplexrw
>
>
Well, if they "find out they've been undercharging you
for the past 10 years" they will have been undercharging
650,000 people as well.

On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 3:02:23 PM UTC-6, wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 12:17:36 -0800 (PST), "
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >I had a former boss who when she got home from work what she wore
> >to work that day was tossed in the washer to wash and then dried.
> >It might have been a tiny load but those tiny loads add up at the
> >end of the month. Her excuse was if she wanted to wear that outfit
> >again later in the week it would be clean; seemed like a waste of
> >water, detergent, and energy to me. Maybe your friends are 'tiny'
> >washers and to them it doesn't seem like they're using much water,
> >detergent, and energy.
>
> They are all far more practical than that.
>
>
Are you sure? Are you spending ALL day with them to know what
appliances they use, how often, their water consumption, etc.?

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 09:10:10 -0500, Nancy Young
> wrote:

>On 12/9/2016 10:27 PM, wrote:
>
>> Think about it. You have a refrigerator that is 20+ years old
>> and for the sake of round numbers it costs you $15 per month to
>> operate. It's still running, keeping food well chilled and freezes
>> ice and other things rock hard. To 'save money' you go out and
>> spend $1500 for a new 'fridge that will cost you $10 per month to
>> do the same job as your other one. It's going to take you several
>> years to recoup that $1500 you spent to 'save money.'
>
>Some years ago I had my windows replaced. I was on edge wondering
>how much this was going to cost. The guy sat there with his
>computer and he was going on about how much money we'd save
>on heating and cooling bills, he had graphs, etc.
>
>Finally I said These windows will NEVER pay for themselves.
>Our bills are pretty low. How Much for the window replacement??

Adding more attic insulation will save more energy than new windows...
however double glazed windows are indeed more efficient than storm
windows and they look a lot nicer.

>Getting LED/LCD TVs lowered my electric bill noticeably, can't
>say the same for the windows, I'm just happy to have new ones.
>Not always about the savings.
>
>nancy

LED lighting, especially outdoor fixtures, save about 90% over
incandescent lighting. All my outdoor lighting is now LED and as
indoor incandescent bulbs burn out they are replaced with LED. I
changed the bathroom fixture over the mirror to an LED fixture because
women spend half their lives in the bathroom and rarely remember to
shut off the light when they leave... the old fixture used four 60
watt bulbs that were contantly burning out and were a pain to change
because the glass diffuser had to be removed and was difficult to put
back (really needed three hands), the new LED fixture consumes 10
watts and emits better light, no bulbs to change, says it should last
15 years... the new fixture looks a lot nicer too, more modern. It's
also adjustable for ones height.

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 00:19:37 -0600, Sqwertz >
wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Dec 2016 17:53:43 -0500, Brooklyn1 wrote:
>
>> Any electrician
>> who would install a 100 Amp service at a residense here would lose
>> their licence, they can install a 60 amp or a 100 Amp service for an
>> out building such as a shed or barn but not for a residense. Do you
>> live in a shed/barn? I would suggest that in Canada folks can live
>> like in the 1920s
>
>100 amps is fine for residential electric service and is allowed by
>the National Electric Code. It is the accepted standard for houses
>under 3,500sq feet with gas service for at least heat and water. NY
>State is no different.
>
>You ignorant, lying dumbass. Do you EVER make ANY effort to tell the
>truth?
>
>-sw

I only recently had an electrical service installed for my garden shed
and well, it had to be a 200 amp service because of the well. My
house has a 100 Amp service but if I wanted it redone/updated it would
need to be a 200 amp service. Every new house built here must have a
200 Amp service. When I had electric brought to my barn I could have
a 60 Amp sevice... thems the rules, I don't make the rules.
Where you live The Frito Bandito makes the rulz.

On 12/10/2016 5:37 PM, wrote:
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 11:37:43 AM UTC-6, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>
>> On 12/10/2016 7:23 AM, wrote:
>>
>>> I can't see spending $1500 on a fridge - regular two door ones are far
>>> less.
>>>
>> Probably $800 for a basic model. Some of us want all the extra goodies
>> though so we pay more. It doesn't make the beer any better.
>>
>>
> Hahahaaaaaa, you nailed it. But yes, I do want all the extra
> goodies/bells & whistles if and when I buy a new chill chest.
>

We bought a French door with an extra drawer that can be temperature
adjusted to either freeze or just refrigerate. Bottom freezer makes a
lot of sense tool

On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:
>
>> When I arrived in Canada, I was appalled at the amount of laundry some
>> friends with teenage daughters went through. It seemed ridiculous that
>> they had to have freshly laundered jeans *every* day.
>
> The only clothing I wear more than once is if I'm working on some
> DIY project like painting. Then I'll wear the same thing Saturday
> and Sunday while I'm working. Otherwise it's fresh clothing every
> day from the skin out.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

I can usually gt two days out of a shirt in cool weather, every day in
hot. Slacks can go three days. Underwear is fresh every day.
Towels can go a few dys too. You should be clean getting out of the
shower so it is just water on it.

For the two of us, it is usually three loads a week. Whites, colors,
sheets.

"U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
...

On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 18:02:51 -0000, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

>"Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
...
>
>On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 10:03:58 AM UTC-5, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> On Friday, December 9, 2016 at 6:41:50 PM UTC-5, Jill McQuown wrote:
>> > On 12/9/2016 5:07 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>> > >
>> > > I see meters outside here too.
>> > >
>> > The *main* electrical box is outside of my house attached to the back
>> > wall. That's where the guy reads the meter. I'm not convinced they
>> > actually "read" the meter anymore. It's rare I see someone outside
>> > checking it. I have seen someone from time to time.
>>
>> We've got smart meters. They report their readings back to the
>> utility via RF signals. So, no guy reading the meter.
>>
>>
>>
>> =============================
>>
>>
>> We avoid those like the plague! They have too much control! For
>> example
>> they can remotely cut the power to your house or some cases to various
>> circuits in the house if they feel that demand in your area is too high.
>
>They might be able to cut power to the whole house, but I know for a
>fact that our connection won't permit individual circuits to be cut.
>They won't cut power to the entire house in case someone is using
>medical equipment.
>
>In any event, we have a generator that comes on automatically if
>there's a power outage.
>
>Cindy Hamilton
>
>
>==============
>
>
>We have generators but they don't come on automatically.
>
>We prefer them not to have so much power over us and so long as it not
>compulsory we won't have those meters.

you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
additional savings for participating in this program.
I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
Janet US

=====================

If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

In article >, Ophelia says...
>
> "U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
> ...
>
> >We have generators but they don't come on automatically.
> >
> >We prefer them not to have so much power over us and so long as it not
> >compulsory we won't have those meters.
>
> you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
> go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
> amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
> of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
> get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
> available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
> plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
> utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
> often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
> hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
> individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
> surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
> install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
> homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
> during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
> additional savings for participating in this program.
> I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
> continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
> anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
> Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
> Janet US
>
> =====================
>
> If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.

In the two countries I've lived in, I've never heard of "tempering the
amount of power some individuals get during a stressed period". Also, as
countries use more sustainable energy, they're consuming a never ending
resource.

"Bruce" wrote in message
T...

In article >, Ophelia says...
>
> "U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
> ...
>
> >We have generators but they don't come on automatically.
> >
> >We prefer them not to have so much power over us and so long as it not
> >compulsory we won't have those meters.
>
> you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
> go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
> amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
> of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
> get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
> available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
> plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
> utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
> often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
> hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
> individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
> surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
> install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
> homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
> during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
> additional savings for participating in this program.
> I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
> continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
> anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
> Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
> Janet US
>
> =====================
>
> If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.

In the two countries I've lived in, I've never heard of "tempering the
amount of power some individuals get during a stressed period". Also, as
countries use more sustainable energy, they're consuming a never ending
resource.

===================

I've only known of our smart meters. They try to get people to take them
by saying things like 'apply now before the offer runs out' <g>

I know that some providers will change your meter if they can get at them
without your permission.

Our provider gives us a choice.


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

"U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
...

you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
additional savings for participating in this program.
I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
Janet US

===================

I have been giving your response some thought and think the following might
be of interest:

The system in UK is somewhat different. One of the main 'selling points' of
smart meters here is that they install a box in the house that can show you
what devices are using what amount of power, in real time. The idea is that
you can lower your bills by turning down/off items that you consider are
using more power than necessary. Some of them will even send the info to
your smart phone/tablet/etc so that you an adjust them when not at home. The
problem with that sort of detail is that the vast majority of people just
wont use or understand it and the utility company has the same control over
your devices that you do. Experiments have shown that devices that are cut
back/switched off by remote control sometimes just don't come back on/up
when they are supposed to; which leads to spoiling of food in fridges and
freezers and if the power goes off while somebody is e.g. ironing and they
don't disconnect the iron, or if they are cooking and leave something on an
electric hob, when the power comes back on it can create a fire hazard.
There is also the issue that is now developing of terrorist/foreign
government hacking of the systems for malevolent purposes.

We are lucky in that there are just the 2 of us adults in the house. We keep
the house heating turned lower than most people seem to because that is how
we prefer it <16-18C> even in winter unless it becomes exceptionally cold
outdoors. We also naturally turn off lights when we leave a room and don't
have many things that stay on long term on standby. Our heating and cooker
hob are gas, although the gas heating is electrically controlled and uses an
electrical water pump to circulate to the radiators of course. Our water
heating is from a combi boiler that only heats the water on demand - no
wasteful immersion heater or hot water tank - and the shower has a separate
electrical water heater. So we are not usually wasteful and don't feel
guilty about not being 'a part of sharing resources'. If we could go totally
off grid we would cheerfully do so but that isn't practical in our current
home!

HTH
--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 08:45:19 -0000, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

>"U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
.. .
>
>On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 18:02:51 -0000, "Ophelia" >
>wrote:
>
>you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
>go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
>amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
>of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
>get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
>available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
>plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
>utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
>often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
>hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
>individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
>surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
>install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
>homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
>during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
>additional savings for participating in this program.
>I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
>continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
>anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
>Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
>Janet US
>
>=====================
>
>If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.

There was a funny situation here - a youngish couple, he was from the
UK and she was German. They bought a few acres on the eastern shore
and decided to build. What they didn't realise was that the power did
not go to their land, nor did the power company intend to put it in
for two people.

No worries, they built a lovely house, all the usual things, earth
mounded up at the back, facing south, some solar, some wind power and
so on. Fairly recently the power company decided they would now run
the power down to them as they were putting it in along the major
road, he told me it was the most delicious letter he ever had to
write! They have installed a generator in the last few years but very
rarely use it.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 19:55:42 +1100, Bruce >
wrote:

>In article >, Ophelia says...
>>
>> "U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> >We have generators but they don't come on automatically.
>> >
>> >We prefer them not to have so much power over us and so long as it not
>> >compulsory we won't have those meters.
>>
>> you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
>> go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
>> amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
>> of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
>> get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
>> available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
>> plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
>> utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
>> often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
>> hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
>> individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
>> surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
>> install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
>> homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
>> during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
>> additional savings for participating in this program.
>> I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
>> continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
>> anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
>> Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
>> Janet US
>>
>> =====================
>>
>> If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.
>
>In the two countries I've lived in, I've never heard of "tempering the
>amount of power some individuals get during a stressed period". Also, as
>countries use more sustainable energy, they're consuming a never ending
>resource.

There is off peak power here - if you set the dishwasher or dryer to
operate in the small hours of the morning, that power is cheaper. You
can also install night storage heaters which take power off peak and
then release it through the day. There is some commitment to do it
but those who do say it works when you get used to doing it.

wrote in message ...

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 08:45:19 -0000, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

>"U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
.. .
>
>On Sat, 10 Dec 2016 18:02:51 -0000, "Ophelia" >
>wrote:
>
>you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
>go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
>amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
>of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
>get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
>available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
>plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
>utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
>often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
>hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
>individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
>surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
>install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
>homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
>during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
>additional savings for participating in this program.
>I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
>continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
>anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
>Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
>Janet US
>
>=====================
>
>If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.

There was a funny situation here - a youngish couple, he was from the
UK and she was German. They bought a few acres on the eastern shore
and decided to build. What they didn't realise was that the power did
not go to their land, nor did the power company intend to put it in
for two people.

No worries, they built a lovely house, all the usual things, earth
mounded up at the back, facing south, some solar, some wind power and
so on. Fairly recently the power company decided they would now run
the power down to them as they were putting it in along the major
road, he told me it was the most delicious letter he ever had to
write! They have installed a generator in the last few years but very
rarely use it.

===================

Wonderful))



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Sunday, December 11, 2016 at 12:44:53 AM UTC-5, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/10/2016 5:28 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > On Saturday, December 10, 2016 at 3:26:48 PM UTC-5, graham wrote:
> >
> >> When I arrived in Canada, I was appalled at the amount of laundry some
> >> friends with teenage daughters went through. It seemed ridiculous that
> >> they had to have freshly laundered jeans *every* day.
> >
> > The only clothing I wear more than once is if I'm working on some
> > DIY project like painting. Then I'll wear the same thing Saturday
> > and Sunday while I'm working. Otherwise it's fresh clothing every
> > day from the skin out.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
>
> I can usually gt two days out of a shirt in cool weather, every day in
> hot. Slacks can go three days. Underwear is fresh every day.
> Towels can go a few dys too. You should be clean getting out of the
> shower so it is just water on it.
>
> For the two of us, it is usually three loads a week. Whites, colors,
> sheets.

The HVAC in my office is terrible. I'll be sitting there and realize
I'm freezing so I put on a sweater or my ESD smock. Then an hour later
I'll notice I'm sweating like a horse and take off the sweater/smock.
Back and forth like that all day. It's not me, either. I can see
everybody in my vicinity doing it (except the guys right out of
college, who seem unfazed by any temperature changes).

We do whites, darks, hot-water wash (items that his allergist
wants washed in hot water), two loads of towels, two loads of
sheets, two or three loads of "good" clothes (lights, darks;
two loads of darks in the winter), and jeans. All of them
full loads except the jeans and sheets, for which I adjust
the water level in the washer appropriately. Oh, and bath
rugs every other week.

I reuse my towel (bath sheet) for a week; he takes two
showers a day so his is changed out three times a week.

That reminds me; it's time to start today's laundry efforts.

Cindy Hamilton

On 2016-12-11 12:44 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

>
> I can usually gt two days out of a shirt in cool weather, every day in
> hot. Slacks can go three days. Underwear is fresh every day.
> Towels can go a few dys too. You should be clean getting out of the
> shower so it is just water on it.
>
> For the two of us, it is usually three loads a week. Whites, colors,
> sheets.

It's about the same here. I change socks and underwear daily and pants
get laundered once every week or two. The problem with towels is that
they can get little funky smelling if they aren't hung to dry properly.
It's not like they are getting filthy after drying off a clean body. I
often had two showers a day, one at home and one at the gym and I get
fresh towels at the gym.

I suggest to my wife that she could save a little work and energy by
washing a load of sheets every second or third week. We have at least
three sets of sheets and pillows. She does them every week... on
Tuesday. I have suggested that it takes the same amount of detergent
and energy to do one set that it takes to do three. One of two sets can
sit in the hamper under the last set is washed and do them all together.

On 12/11/2016 8:42 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

> The HVAC in my office is terrible. I'll be sitting there and realize
> I'm freezing so I put on a sweater or my ESD smock. Then an hour later
> I'll notice I'm sweating like a horse and take off the sweater/smock.
> Back and forth like that all day.

I couldn't take it. I would feel like I was suffocating. Just
make it colder and I'll wear a sweater.

> We do whites, darks, hot-water wash (items that his allergist
> wants washed in hot water), two loads of towels, two loads of
> sheets, two or three loads of "good" clothes (lights, darks;
> two loads of darks in the winter), and jeans. All of them
> full loads except the jeans and sheets, for which I adjust
> the water level in the washer appropriately. Oh, and bath
> rugs every other week.j

Wow, you do change your clothing a lot. Of course, I did
more when I was working.

> I reuse my towel (bath sheet) for a week; he takes two
> showers a day so his is changed out three times a week.

Towels change every other day here, I know some people think
it's unsanitary to reuse them but shrug.

> That reminds me; it's time to start today's laundry efforts.

Sunday is laundry day here, whites (tshirts separate so a bit
of softener can be added, so that's two loads) towels, darks,
lights. Done. Sheets are a separate matter and I don't do them.
That came out funny, sheets are washed but Ron takes care of
them.

nancy

On 12/11/2016 9:23 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 12/11/2016 8:42 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
>> The HVAC in my office is terrible. I'll be sitting there and realize
>> I'm freezing so I put on a sweater or my ESD smock. Then an hour later
>> I'll notice I'm sweating like a horse and take off the sweater/smock.
>> Back and forth like that all day.
>
> I couldn't take it. I would feel like I was suffocating. Just
> make it colder and I'll wear a sweater.
>
I'm reminded of an older woman I worked with who was always trying to
adjust the thermostats in the office. She was always complaining about
being cold. Little did she know they weren't actual working
thermostats. (There seems to be some psychological benefit to letting
people *think* they're changing the temp. In fact it was all controlled
by building maintenance.) Lady, just wear a sweater or a jacket. The
rest of us really were glad she couldn't set it to 82°F.

>> I reuse my towel (bath sheet) for a week; he takes two
>> showers a day so his is changed out three times a week.
>
> Towels change every other day here, I know some people think
> it's unsanitary to reuse them but shrug.
>
What's unsanitary about a towel you simply use to dry off with? As Ed
stated, you're (hopefully) clean when you get out of the shower. Hang
the towel and let it dry. Use it again. I wash bath sheets once a week.

BTW, the problem with my dryer was a broken connector switch behind the
*start* button. A simple fix but I couldn't have done it myself. No
need for a new dryer.

Jill

"jmcquown" wrote in message news
On 12/11/2016 9:23 AM, Nancy Young wrote:
> On 12/11/2016 8:42 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
>> The HVAC in my office is terrible. I'll be sitting there and realize
>> I'm freezing so I put on a sweater or my ESD smock. Then an hour later
>> I'll notice I'm sweating like a horse and take off the sweater/smock.
>> Back and forth like that all day.
>
> I couldn't take it. I would feel like I was suffocating. Just
> make it colder and I'll wear a sweater.
>
I'm reminded of an older woman I worked with who was always trying to
adjust the thermostats in the office. She was always complaining about
being cold. Little did she know they weren't actual working
thermostats. (There seems to be some psychological benefit to letting
people *think* they're changing the temp. In fact it was all controlled
by building maintenance.) Lady, just wear a sweater or a jacket. The
rest of us really were glad she couldn't set it to 82°F.

>> I reuse my towel (bath sheet) for a week; he takes two
>> showers a day so his is changed out three times a week.
>
> Towels change every other day here, I know some people think
> it's unsanitary to reuse them but shrug.
>
What's unsanitary about a towel you simply use to dry off with? As Ed
stated, you're (hopefully) clean when you get out of the shower. Hang
the towel and let it dry. Use it again. I wash bath sheets once a week.

BTW, the problem with my dryer was a broken connector switch behind the
*start* button. A simple fix but I couldn't have done it myself. No
need for a new dryer.

Jill

=================

Yayy.. all fixed) Reading how Ed works with his washing, that sounds just
like us)



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...

> you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
> go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
> amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
> =====================
>
> If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.

We are scheduled for brown outs etc. where I am if the need arises. So far
it's never happened.

Cheri

"Cheri" wrote in message news

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...

> you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
> go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
> amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
> =====================
>
> If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.

We are scheduled for brown outs etc. where I am if the need arises. So far
it's never happened.

Cheri

============================

Time to get a generator?


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 12/11/2016 10:18 AM, jmcquown wrote:

>>
> I'm reminded of an older woman I worked with who was always trying to
> adjust the thermostats in the office. She was always complaining about
> being cold. Little did she know they weren't actual working
> thermostats. (There seems to be some psychological benefit to letting
> people *think* they're changing the temp. In fact it was all controlled
> by building maintenance.) Lady, just wear a sweater or a jacket. The
> rest of us really were glad she couldn't set it to 82°F.

Years ago I worked with a woman that had a little thermometer on her
desk and she was always turning up the heat. One day she went to lunch
and a guy moved the glass thermometer so it read two degrees higher.
She was much more comfortable and left the thermostat alone.

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 19:55:42 +1100, Bruce >
wrote:

>In article >, Ophelia says...
>>
>> "U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> >We have generators but they don't come on automatically.
>> >
>> >We prefer them not to have so much power over us and so long as it not
>> >compulsory we won't have those meters.
>>
>> you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
>> go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
>> amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
>> of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
>> get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
>> available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
>> plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
>> utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
>> often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
>> hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
>> individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
>> surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
>> install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
>> homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
>> during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
>> additional savings for participating in this program.
>> I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
>> continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
>> anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
>> Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
>> Janet US
>>
>> =====================
>>
>> If the situation was that desperate here they would make it compulsory.
>
>In the two countries I've lived in, I've never heard of "tempering the
>amount of power some individuals get during a stressed period". Also, as
>countries use more sustainable energy, they're consuming a never ending
>resource.

My country does it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownout_(electricity)
Janet US

On Sun, 11 Dec 2016 11:36:29 -0000, "Ophelia" >
wrote:

>"U.S. Janet B." wrote in message
.. .
>
>you can always go off the grid and then they have no power over you --
>go solar. Or get gas powered appliances. By accepting modern
>amenities like roads, water, electricity you are accepting the rules
>of civilization. By tempering the amount of power some individuals
>get during a stressed period, the utilities make sure enough power is
>available for necessary functions like hospitals, police, the water
>plant, individuals at home that must have electricity to live etc. The
>utility is just spreading the impact among users. If this happens
>often and you are worried about your electrical devices you should
>hook all of them up to a either a whole house surge protector or
>individual surge protectors. Looking at Google I see that whole house
>surger protectors run from about $100 to $200 US if you buy and
>install yourself. My utility does have a program where you as a
>homeowner can volunteer to have less power delivered to your house
>during periods when you know you will not be there. They offer
>additional savings for participating in this program.
>I guess the thing is that if we as citizens of this planet want to
>continue to have babies, drive cars, use refrigerators etc. we need to
>anticipate that we will have to all be part of sharing resources.
>Sorry about the sermon. . .it wasn't aimed at you in particular.
>Janet US
>
>===================
>
>I have been giving your response some thought and think the following might
>be of interest:
>
>The system in UK is somewhat different. One of the main 'selling points' of
>smart meters here is that they install a box in the house that can show you
>what devices are using what amount of power, in real time. The idea is that
>you can lower your bills by turning down/off items that you consider are
>using more power than necessary. Some of them will even send the info to
>your smart phone/tablet/etc so that you an adjust them when not at home. The
>problem with that sort of detail is that the vast majority of people just
>wont use or understand it and the utility company has the same control over
>your devices that you do. Experiments have shown that devices that are cut
>back/switched off by remote control sometimes just don't come back on/up
>when they are supposed to; which leads to spoiling of food in fridges and
>freezers and if the power goes off while somebody is e.g. ironing and they
>don't disconnect the iron, or if they are cooking and leave something on an
>electric hob, when the power comes back on it can create a fire hazard.
>There is also the issue that is now developing of terrorist/foreign
>government hacking of the systems for malevolent purposes.
>
>We are lucky in that there are just the 2 of us adults in the house. We keep
>the house heating turned lower than most people seem to because that is how
>we prefer it <16-18C> even in winter unless it becomes exceptionally cold
>outdoors. We also naturally turn off lights when we leave a room and don't
>have many things that stay on long term on standby. Our heating and cooker
>hob are gas, although the gas heating is electrically controlled and uses an
>electrical water pump to circulate to the radiators of course. Our water
>heating is from a combi boiler that only heats the water on demand - no
>wasteful immersion heater or hot water tank - and the shower has a separate
>electrical water heater. So we are not usually wasteful and don't feel
>guilty about not being 'a part of sharing resources'. If we could go totally
>off grid we would cheerfully do so but that isn't practical in our current
>home!
>
>HTH

that's a better explanation of smart meter. I understand you concern.
I don't think I would like the utility to know when I am ironing.Your
system may be a step too far, As to the terrorist thing, probably
legitimate. It's certainly a 'cleaner' way and less dangerous to
warriors to do warfare that way. I never meant to imply that you are
wasteful. I am what is known here as a 'fuzzy liberal' and I strongly
believe that we should all take part in supporting our country and
civilization. I was only trying to explain the broader motivation
behind the smart devices. I am sure that there are innovation lovers
that are all over such a device. I mean -- control your iron from the
office? Way cool
Janet US

On 12/11/2016 11:29 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 12/11/2016 10:18 AM, jmcquown wrote:
>
>>>
>> I'm reminded of an older woman I worked with who was always trying to
>> adjust the thermostats in the office. She was always complaining about
>> being cold. Little did she know they weren't actual working
>> thermostats. (There seems to be some psychological benefit to letting
>> people *think* they're changing the temp. In fact it was all controlled
>> by building maintenance.) Lady, just wear a sweater or a jacket. The
>> rest of us really were glad she couldn't set it to 82°F.
>
> Years ago I worked with a woman that had a little thermometer on her
> desk and she was always turning up the heat. One day she went to lunch
> and a guy moved the glass thermometer so it read two degrees higher. She
> was much more comfortable and left the thermostat alone.
>
LOL the little mind tricks. We were always saying, "Beverly, just put
on a sweater!" It was bad enough they kept the temp rather warm in the
to begin with (in the summer). I had a small fan on my desk. Most of
us did. This woman still thought it was cold. Put on a sweater!

Jill