Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>Gary wrote:
>>
>> Doctor told me once, main reason for so many more colds
>> and flu in winter is because people keep their houses
>> closed up and the viruses multiply in the warm environment.
>>
>> Also important to wash hands frequently during and after
>> going out into public and handling things - even money.
>>
>> Those precautions seem to work for me so I believe.
>
>We have no cloth towels in the kitchen. The machine drys the dishes in
>there, anything washed by hand air dries. Dish towels are sometimes
>used to dry hands and are potentially a source of cross contamination.
>Paper towels do the job.

You are misinformed... hand washing can do a better job of sanitizing
because most germs are neutralized by the dishwashing liquids on the
market shelves, has little to do with water temperature. But mostly
if your dishes are stored in a kitchen cabinet it makes no never mind
how washed as germs are airborne, so dishes will quickly become
contaminated. Fortunately we have immune systems, otherwise we'd all
be dead.
You don't bathe in a dishwasher, your mother never bathed you in a
dish washer... you'd be dead many years ago... your mom would be
imprisoned.

Dishwashers haven't a whit to do with health issues, they have all to
do with *laziness*. Gary is far, FAR more intelligent regarding
washing dishes.
Dishwashers are ALL about LAZINESS. [period]

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 17:37:07 -0400, wrote:

>Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>Gary wrote:
>>>
>>> Doctor told me once, main reason for so many more colds
>>> and flu in winter is because people keep their houses
>>> closed up and the viruses multiply in the warm environment.
>>>
>>> Also important to wash hands frequently during and after
>>> going out into public and handling things - even money.
>>>
>>> Those precautions seem to work for me so I believe.
>>
>>We have no cloth towels in the kitchen. The machine drys the dishes in
>>there, anything washed by hand air dries. Dish towels are sometimes
>>used to dry hands and are potentially a source of cross contamination.
>>Paper towels do the job.
>
>You are misinformed... hand washing can do a better job of sanitizing
>because most germs are neutralized by the dishwashing liquids on the
>market shelves, has little to do with water temperature. But mostly
>if your dishes are stored in a kitchen cabinet it makes no never mind
>how washed as germs are airborne, so dishes will quickly become
>contaminated. Fortunately we have immune systems, otherwise we'd all
>be dead.
>You don't bathe in a dishwasher, your mother never bathed you in a
>dish washer... you'd be dead many years ago... your mom would be
>imprisoned.
>
>Dishwashers haven't a whit to do with health issues, they have all to
>do with *laziness*. Gary is far, FAR more intelligent regarding
>washing dishes.
>Dishwashers are ALL about LAZINESS. [period]

This message was brought to you from 1850.

> wrote in message
news
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
> wrote:
>
>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
. 179.44...
>>> On Thu 17 Aug 2017 07:04:16a, Ophelia told us...
>>>
>>>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message ...
>>>>
>>>> On 8/17/2017 5:50 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I've heard of this kind of thing before. Are you sure that the
>>>>>> US gets the same stuff we get in UK?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm guessing that their auto parts may not reflect the quality of
>>>>> their appliances and power tool lines. I believe that the
>>>>> appliances and power tools are made in the US and may not be the
>>>>> same designs that are sold in Europe. I don't know enough to
>>>>> comment on the quality or reliability of these lines.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our local appliance dealer stopped carrying Bosch because of
>>>> reliability issues. He said they were were good machines when the
>>>> worked but had too many service calls. We got another KA.
>>>>
>>>> ===
>>>>
>>>> We got our Bosch early this year. No problems yet (fingers
>>>> crossed)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Our curent one is in its sixth year. We wash at last two loads per
>>> day.
>>
>>That wouldn't work at all in CA coming off several seasons of drought,
>>though this year has been much better, I fill both sinks half way when I
>>finish cooking etc., wash in one, rinse in the other. Not much water used
>>at
>>all, but we don't have a lot of dishes to do now with just the two of us.
>>
>>Cheri
>>
> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.


No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.

Cheri

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
wrote:

> wrote in message
>news
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
.179.44...
>>>> On Thu 17 Aug 2017 07:04:16a, Ophelia told us...
>>>>
>>>>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message ...
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8/17/2017 5:50 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> I've heard of this kind of thing before. Are you sure that the
>>>>>>> US gets the same stuff we get in UK?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm guessing that their auto parts may not reflect the quality of
>>>>>> their appliances and power tool lines. I believe that the
>>>>>> appliances and power tools are made in the US and may not be the
>>>>>> same designs that are sold in Europe. I don't know enough to
>>>>>> comment on the quality or reliability of these lines.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Our local appliance dealer stopped carrying Bosch because of
>>>>> reliability issues. He said they were were good machines when the
>>>>> worked but had too many service calls. We got another KA.
>>>>>
>>>>> ===
>>>>>
>>>>> We got our Bosch early this year. No problems yet (fingers
>>>>> crossed)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our curent one is in its sixth year. We wash at last two loads per
>>>> day.
>>>
>>>That wouldn't work at all in CA coming off several seasons of drought,
>>>though this year has been much better, I fill both sinks half way when I
>>>finish cooking etc., wash in one, rinse in the other. Not much water used
>>>at
>>>all, but we don't have a lot of dishes to do now with just the two of us.
>>>
>>>Cheri
>>>
>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>
>
>No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>
>Cheri

You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
that for two DAYS worth of dishes.

On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:

>>>>
>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>
>>
>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>
>> Cheri
>
> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>

This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
saves water

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:50:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>
>>> Cheri
>>
>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
>> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
>> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>
>
>This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
>saves water

But what if one has a very speshial water saving way of doing the
dishes by hand?

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
wrote:

> wrote in message
>news
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
.179.44...

>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>
>
>I use around 2/12 gallons of hot water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.

That is a very specific, near scientific, statement.

On 8/18/2017 9:00 PM, Bruce wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:50:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>>>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>>
>>>> Cheri
>>>
>>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
>>> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
>>> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>>
>>
>> This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
>> saves water
>
> But what if one has a very speshial water saving way of doing the
> dishes by hand?
>

You have a point. It works for sex too.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 22:06:32 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 8/18/2017 9:00 PM, Bruce wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:50:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>>>>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheri
>>>>
>>>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
>>>> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
>>>> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
>>> saves water
>>
>> But what if one has a very speshial water saving way of doing the
>> dishes by hand?
>>
>
>You have a point. It works for sex too.

Lol, I won't ask.

> wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
> wrote:
>
> wrote in message
>>news
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
6.179.44...
>>>>> On Thu 17 Aug 2017 07:04:16a, Ophelia told us...
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 8/17/2017 5:50 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've heard of this kind of thing before. Are you sure that the
>>>>>>>> US gets the same stuff we get in UK?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm guessing that their auto parts may not reflect the quality of
>>>>>>> their appliances and power tool lines. I believe that the
>>>>>>> appliances and power tools are made in the US and may not be the
>>>>>>> same designs that are sold in Europe. I don't know enough to
>>>>>>> comment on the quality or reliability of these lines.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Our local appliance dealer stopped carrying Bosch because of
>>>>>> reliability issues. He said they were were good machines when the
>>>>>> worked but had too many service calls. We got another KA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ===
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We got our Bosch early this year. No problems yet (fingers
>>>>>> crossed)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Our curent one is in its sixth year. We wash at last two loads per
>>>>> day.
>>>>
>>>>That wouldn't work at all in CA coming off several seasons of drought,
>>>>though this year has been much better, I fill both sinks half way when I
>>>>finish cooking etc., wash in one, rinse in the other. Not much water
>>>>used
>>>>at
>>>>all, but we don't have a lot of dishes to do now with just the two of
>>>>us.
>>>>
>>>>Cheri
>>>>
>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>
>>
>>No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>>water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>
>>Cheri
>
> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.


I do prefer it now, but when the family comes I use the dishwasher. My
dishwasher uses around 6 or so gallons to wash, it's a GE Nautilus that I
bought new 15 or so years ago. Your dishwasher uses less than 2 1/2 gallons?
They have improved the water savings with them obviously.

Cheri

"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of
>>> hot
>>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>
>>> Cheri
>>
>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
>> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
>> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>
>
> This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
> saves water


Not mine, but you're right the subject comes up about once a year and every
year...I don't care how people prefer to clean their dishes at all, I clean
mine the way I want to, you clean yours the way you want to, and that's the
way it should be.

Cheri

"Bruce" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
> wrote:
>
> wrote in message
>>news
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
6.179.44...
>
>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>
>>
>>I use around 2/12 gallons of hot water for mine, which is what I prefer to
>>do.
>
> That is a very specific, near scientific, statement.


It is because I have a two quart pitcher that I measure the water with. I
started doing that during the serious part of the drought and have kept it
up though the drought has eased quite a bit. Our water is metered, and one
good thing with the drought saving measures, I have a very low water bill
every month.

Cheri

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 19:26:58 -0700, "Cheri" >
wrote:

>"Bruce" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
>> wrote:
>>
> wrote in message
>>>news >>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:XnsA7D45D6B95EE3wayneboatwrightxgmai@69. 16.179.44...
>>
>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>
>>>
>>>I use around 2/12 gallons of hot water for mine, which is what I prefer to
>>>do.
>>
>> That is a very specific, near scientific, statement.
>
>
>It is because I have a two quart pitcher that I measure the water with. I
>started doing that during the serious part of the drought and have kept it
>up though the drought has eased quite a bit. Our water is metered, and one
>good thing with the drought saving measures, I have a very low water bill
>every month.

That makes sense. We're on rain water.

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 17:37:07 -0400, wrote:
>

> >You are misinformed... hand washing can do a better job of sanitizing
> >because most germs are neutralized by the dishwashing liquids on the
> >market shelves, has little to do with water temperature. But mostly
> >if your dishes are stored in a kitchen cabinet it makes no never mind
> >how washed as germs are airborne, so dishes will quickly become
> >contaminated. Fortunately we have immune systems, otherwise we'd all
> >be dead.
> >You don't bathe in a dishwasher, your mother never bathed you in a
> >dish washer... you'd be dead many years ago... your mom would be
> >imprisoned.
> >
> >Dishwashers haven't a whit to do with health issues, they have all to
> >do with *laziness*. Gary is far, FAR more intelligent regarding
> >washing dishes.
> >Dishwashers are ALL about LAZINESS. [period]
>
> This message was brought to you from 1850.
>
>
Actually, no he is correct. We never had a dishwasher at home when
I was a kid unless you call us kids dishwashers. It was rare indeed
for any of us to be sick; maybe, just maybe, one of us would catch a
cold but that was about it.

I don't begrudge anyone using an automatic dishwasher at all but they
are no more healthy or their dishes cleaner than hand washing.

On 8/18/2017 5:03 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
> Generally I don't either. However, I have a Le Creuset skillet that
> I use for baking cornbread. One has to work quickly with a very hot
> preheated skillet contaiaing several spoonsfull of grease which is
> then poured into the batter while whisking, and the batter is then
> immediately poured into the hot skillet. There is often some
> drippage on the outisde of the skillet which, at that high
> temperature, will definitely burn on. No dishwasher will remove
> that.
>
You use a Le Creuset skillet for cornbread? Are you talking about a
porcelanized skillet? If so, that's a surprise!

I have a 9 inch cast iron skillet used strictly for cornbread. The
heating of the grease (in my case, OMG, Crisco) in the skillet in the
oven before pouring in the batter ensures a non-stick bread. Also a
nicely golden brown crust on the cornbread. There's never any fat left
in the pan.

I would NEVER put that cast iron skillet in the dishwasher. I also
don't wash it. I just wipe it out with a paper towel and set it aside
until the next time I feel like making cornbread.

Jill

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:19:28 -0700 (PDT), "
> wrote:

>On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 17:37:07 -0400, wrote:
>>
>
>> >You are misinformed... hand washing can do a better job of sanitizing
>> >because most germs are neutralized by the dishwashing liquids on the
>> >market shelves, has little to do with water temperature. But mostly
>> >if your dishes are stored in a kitchen cabinet it makes no never mind
>> >how washed as germs are airborne, so dishes will quickly become
>> >contaminated. Fortunately we have immune systems, otherwise we'd all
>> >be dead.
>> >You don't bathe in a dishwasher, your mother never bathed you in a
>> >dish washer... you'd be dead many years ago... your mom would be
>> >imprisoned.
>> >
>> >Dishwashers haven't a whit to do with health issues, they have all to
>> >do with *laziness*. Gary is far, FAR more intelligent regarding
>> >washing dishes.
>> >Dishwashers are ALL about LAZINESS. [period]
>>
>> This message was brought to you from 1850.
>>
>>
>Actually, no he is correct. We never had a dishwasher at home when
>I was a kid unless you call us kids dishwashers. It was rare indeed
>for any of us to be sick; maybe, just maybe, one of us would catch a
>cold but that was about it.
>
>I don't begrudge anyone using an automatic dishwasher at all but they
>are no more healthy or their dishes cleaner than hand washing.

I don't believe dish washing or hand washing has a lot to do with
getting sick. I was commenting more on his anti dish washer rant in
general. There was a time when people thought trains were bad for your
health. He's a fountain of antiquated, narrow-minded, bigoted
nonsense.

"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
9.44...
> On Fri 18 Aug 2017 07:21:37p, Cheri told us...
>
>> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of
>>>>>> dishes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12
>>>>> gallons of hot water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheri
>>>>
>>>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less
>>>> hot water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in
>>>> dishwasher) than that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that
>>> the DW saves water
>>
>>
>> Not mine, but you're right the subject comes up about once a year
>> and every year...I don't care how people prefer to clean their
>> dishes at all, I clean mine the way I want to, you clean yours the
>> way you want to, and that's the way it should be.
>>
>> Cheri
>>
>>
>>
>
> I don' think anyone cares HOW you clean your dishes. The point was
> it is more efficient to use a modern dishwsher. What you choose to
> do is your business.

No, it's not more efficient for me, not at all. If you have a lot of dishes
(which you obviously do if you run it twice a day) it might be for you. Good
for you, be happy with yourself and your way.

Cheri

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
news
> On 8/18/2017 5:03 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>>
>> Generally I don't either. However, I have a Le Creuset skillet that
>> I use for baking cornbread. One has to work quickly with a very hot
>> preheated skillet contaiaing several spoonsfull of grease which is
>> then poured into the batter while whisking, and the batter is then
>> immediately poured into the hot skillet. There is often some
>> drippage on the outisde of the skillet which, at that high
>> temperature, will definitely burn on. No dishwasher will remove
>> that.
>>
> You use a Le Creuset skillet for cornbread? Are you talking about a
> porcelanized skillet? If so, that's a surprise!
>
> I have a 9 inch cast iron skillet used strictly for cornbread. The
> heating of the grease (in my case, OMG, Crisco) in the skillet in the oven
> before pouring in the batter ensures a non-stick bread. Also a nicely
> golden brown crust on the cornbread. There's never any fat left in the
> pan.
>
> I would NEVER put that cast iron skillet in the dishwasher. I also don't
> wash it. I just wipe it out with a paper towel and set it aside until the
> next time I feel like making cornbread.
>
> Jill


Same here, I love that crispy crust that comes from the cast iron skillet
after getting it good and hot in the oven before pouring the batter in.

Cheri

"Cheri" wrote in message news
"Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
...
> On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>
>>>
>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of
>>> hot
>>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>
>>> Cheri
>>
>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
>> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
>> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>
>
> This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
> saves water


Not mine, but you're right the subject comes up about once a year and every
year...I don't care how people prefer to clean their dishes at all, I clean
mine the way I want to, you clean yours the way you want to, and that's the
way it should be.

Cheri
==

Exactly right!! )


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:52:33 PM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:

> Properly cooking food kills germs, which is why restaurants won't
> serve burgers other than well done.

Sure they will. I can get a rare burger at any worthwhile restaurant.
In Michigan, menus must have a disclaimer that basically boils down
to: "If you eat undercooked food, you could die a horrible, lingering
death and it's all your fault".

Cindy Hamilton

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 11:00:06 +1000, Bruce >
wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:50:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>>On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>>>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>>
>>>> Cheri
>>>
>>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
>>> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
>>> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>>
>>
>>This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
>>saves water
>
>But what if one has a very speshial water saving way of doing the
>dishes by hand?

Do you mean letting the dog do them??

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 08:05:39 -0300, wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 11:00:06 +1000, Bruce >
>wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:50:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>>>>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheri
>>>>
>>>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
>>>> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
>>>> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
>>>>
>>>
>>>This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
>>>saves water
>>
>>But what if one has a very speshial water saving way of doing the
>>dishes by hand?
>
>Do you mean letting the dog do them??

Yes, that's very permacultural!

On 8/19/2017 1:15 AM, Cheri wrote:
> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> news
>> On 8/18/2017 5:03 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>>>
>>> Generally I don't either. However, I have a Le Creuset skillet that
>>> I use for baking cornbread. One has to work quickly with a very hot
>>> preheated skillet contaiaing several spoonsfull of grease which is
>>> then poured into the batter while whisking, and the batter is then
>>> immediately poured into the hot skillet. There is often some
>>> drippage on the outisde of the skillet which, at that high
>>> temperature, will definitely burn on. No dishwasher will remove
>>> that.
>>>
>> You use a Le Creuset skillet for cornbread? Are you talking about a
>> porcelanized skillet? If so, that's a surprise!
>>
>> I have a 9 inch cast iron skillet used strictly for cornbread. The
>> heating of the grease (in my case, OMG, Crisco) in the skillet in the
>> oven before pouring in the batter ensures a non-stick bread. Also a
>> nicely golden brown crust on the cornbread. There's never any fat
>> left in the pan.
>>
>> I would NEVER put that cast iron skillet in the dishwasher. I also
>> don't wash it. I just wipe it out with a paper towel and set it aside
>> until the next time I feel like making cornbread.
>>
>> Jill
>
>
> Same here, I love that crispy crust that comes from the cast iron
> skillet after getting it good and hot in the oven before pouring the
> batter in.
>
> Cheri

Yep! I made a pan of cornbread last week to go with my spicy 5 bean
soup. Both were delicious.

Jill

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 02:49:53 GMT, Wayne Boatwright
> wrote:

>>
>
>Both our hot and cold water is included in our HOA fee. We never see
>any kind of water bill. Our hot water actually comes from a central
>boiler rather than an individual water heater. Our electricity is
>metered, and each co-op unit has a "cap" on how much electricity is
>alloted within the HOA fee. If we don't exceed the cap, then we
>don't pay for electricity. We do exceed the cap during a couple of
>the hotest months, but our overage charge is not very much.

My condo supplies the hot water but power we pay individually. We
made the change over to natural gas a few years ago, it proved a wise
move.

In article >, says...
>
> On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
>
> >>>>
> >>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
> >>
> >>
> >> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
> >> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
> >>
> >> Cheri
> >
> > You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
> > water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
> > that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
> >
>
> This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
> saves water

Do such studies compare like with like, though?

If you run the DW to wash a whole days dishes, the water use should be
compared with saving a whole days dirty dishes to handwash them all
together in one batch.

If you ran the DW after every meal and compared DW water use with
handwashing after ever meal I suspect there would be very little
difference in water use.

I don't consider it sanitary to collect dirty plates and utensils
for one or two days at room temp while bacteria multiply on the
decomposing food and human saliva, so airborne bacteria spread out into
a food prep area. Like every time the DW is opened to add more grot to
its dark warm moist breeding ground.

But that's just me.

Janet UK

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 03:31:43 -0700 (PDT), Cindy Hamilton
> wrote:

>On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:52:33 PM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:
>
>> Properly cooking food kills germs, which is why restaurants won't
>> serve burgers other than well done.
>
>Sure they will. I can get a rare burger at any worthwhile restaurant.
>In Michigan, menus must have a disclaimer that basically boils down
>to: "If you eat undercooked food, you could die a horrible, lingering
>death and it's all your fault".
>
>Cindy Hamilton

The Hard Rock Cafe in Gatlinburg, Tenn. serves extremely rare
hamburgers, totally delicious. I asked about it and the waiter told
me they can do it because they have their own cattle ranches. What a
disappointment when I saw a Hard Rock Cafe in Ottawa and thought I
would have a great, very rare, Gruyere Hamburger. Not allowed to
serve them rare, Health Canada restrictions

In article >,
says...
>
> On Fri 18 Aug 2017 07:06:32p, Ed Pawlowski told us...
>
> > On 8/18/2017 9:00 PM, Bruce wrote:
> >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:50:16 -0400, Ed Pawlowski >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of
> >>>>>> dishes.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12
> >>>>> gallons of hot water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Cheri
> >>>>
> >>>> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less
> >>>> hot water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in
> >>>> dishwasher) than that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that
> >>> the DW saves water
> >>
> >> But what if one has a very speshial water saving way of doing the
> >> dishes by hand?
> >>
> >
> > You have a point. It works for sex too.
> >
>
> AZ has been in a drought for at least the last two decades, although
> not as serious, apparently, as CA.

I'm astonished to read your water sonsumption figures

https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservice...rvation/water-
efficiency#!ResidenceIndoorArea

" the average Phoenix resident uses more than 100 gallons a day for
cooking, bathing, laundry, watering the yard and many other ways."

In UK, the average domestic use is 150 litres per person daily, which
is 40 US gallons.

http://www.cambridge-water.co.uk/cus...ter-do-you-use

Janet UK.

On 8/18/2017 4:52 PM, wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 10:04:46 -0400, Gary > wrote:
>
>> I even gave ferrets access to my dinner plates for
>> "all you can eat." Once they checked it out, ate what
>> they wanted, I would eat. Evidently ferret germs are
>> not so bad. eh?
>
> One of my cats, Jilly, eats from my plate along with me... especially
> roast chicken... we both prefer dark meat but she takes the best
> parts... I guess if I catch a cold I'll make an appointment with the
> Vet. I don't think which method one uses to wash dishes has a whit to
> do with one's health issues. I also think all that hand washing
> that's touted has a whit to do with catching colds either... has to do
> with whom one associates, whose air one shares. Hanging in crowds
> elevates ones odds of catching whatever is going around...

I agree with most of that.

> my doctors says... during flu season he insists all patients in the
> waiting room wear a paper mask. He says constant hand washing is BS
> unless one is a thumb sucker/nose picker. Of course hand washing is
> always beneficial prior to handling food.

Absolutely. Before and after handling food. I don't constantly wash my
hands throughout the day. Heck, I don't panic or put on plastic gloves
when I go to the grocery store. I don't carry Purel hand sanitizer
around with me or worry about germs on cans or other items someone else
might have touched in the store before I picked it up.

> Properly cooking food kills germs, which is why restaurants won't
> serve burgers other than well done. Meat sections are sterile
> internally so if one grinds meat themself they can safely cook it as
> rare as they like, or eat it raw.
>
When it comes to restaurant burgers, that used to be the case but not
anymore. One of the few things I order at the Club is a medium rare
burger and that's exactly what I get. Quite pink in the middle. It was
the same when I last ordered one at Steamer's Restaurant on Lady's
Island. Restaurants aren't required to cook burgers to death anymore.

Caveat: if you're buying burgers from any (not picking on McD's here!)
fast food joint, well done is the only way they serve them. They're
fairly thin patties and they don't ask how you'd like it cooked.

Jill

In article >, says...
>
> "Ed Pawlowski" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of
> >>> hot
> >>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
> >>>
> >>> Cheri
> >>
> >> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
> >> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
> >> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.
> >>
> >
> > This subject comes up about once a year. Many studies show that the DW
> > saves water
>
>
> Not mine, but you're right the subject comes up about once a year and every
> year...I don't care how people prefer to clean their dishes at all, I clean
> mine the way I want to, you clean yours the way you want to, and that's the
> way it should be.
>
> Cheri

Is that your last word Cheri? End Of Discussion, again ?

Nope, thought not.

Janet UK

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 12:34:35 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>>
>> On Fri 18 Aug 2017 07:06:32p, Ed Pawlowski told us...
>> >
>> > You have a point. It works for sex too.
>> >
>>
>> AZ has been in a drought for at least the last two decades, although
>> not as serious, apparently, as CA.
>
> I'm astonished to read your water sonsumption figures
>
> https://www.phoenix.gov/waterservice...rvation/water-
>efficiency#!ResidenceIndoorArea
>
> " the average Phoenix resident uses more than 100 gallons a day for
>cooking, bathing, laundry, watering the yard and many other ways."
>
> In UK, the average domestic use is 150 litres per person daily, which
>is 40 US gallons.
>
>http://www.cambridge-water.co.uk/cus...ter-do-you-use

But when you live in the desert, you probably water your garden more.
Maybe you also shower more and do more laundry.

On 8/19/2017 6:31 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:52:33 PM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:
>
>> Properly cooking food kills germs, which is why restaurants won't
>> serve burgers other than well done.
>
> Sure they will. I can get a rare burger at any worthwhile restaurant.
> In Michigan, menus must have a disclaimer that basically boils down
> to: "If you eat undercooked food, you could die a horrible, lingering
> death and it's all your fault".
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

LOLOL! For a while I collected restaurant menus. For some reason we
wound up in Dickeyville, Wisconsin on our way back home. We had dinner
at Shultzie's Supper Club. There was a notation at the bottom of the
menu, something along the lines of "if you order a steak well done we'll
ask you to leave."

Jill

In article >,
lid says...
>
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:19:28 -0700 (PDT), "
> > wrote:
>
> >On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 17:37:07 -0400, wrote:
> >>
> >
> >> >You are misinformed... hand washing can do a better job of sanitizing
> >> >because most germs are neutralized by the dishwashing liquids on the
> >> >market shelves, has little to do with water temperature. But mostly
> >> >if your dishes are stored in a kitchen cabinet it makes no never mind
> >> >how washed as germs are airborne, so dishes will quickly become
> >> >contaminated. Fortunately we have immune systems, otherwise we'd all
> >> >be dead.
> >> >You don't bathe in a dishwasher, your mother never bathed you in a
> >> >dish washer... you'd be dead many years ago... your mom would be
> >> >imprisoned.
> >> >
> >> >Dishwashers haven't a whit to do with health issues, they have all to
> >> >do with *laziness*. Gary is far, FAR more intelligent regarding
> >> >washing dishes.
> >> >Dishwashers are ALL about LAZINESS. [period]
> >>
> >> This message was brought to you from 1850.
> >>
> >>
> >Actually, no he is correct. We never had a dishwasher at home when
> >I was a kid unless you call us kids dishwashers. It was rare indeed
> >for any of us to be sick; maybe, just maybe, one of us would catch a
> >cold but that was about it.
> >
> >I don't begrudge anyone using an automatic dishwasher at all but they
> >are no more healthy or their dishes cleaner than hand washing.
>
> I don't believe dish washing or hand washing has a lot to do with
> getting sick. I was commenting more on his anti dish washer rant in
> general. There was a time when people thought trains were bad for your
> health.

Even Cheri couldn't call that a scientific contribution to the
thread.Nobody boards a train to wash their dishes.

> He's a fountain of antiquated, narrow-minded, bigoted
> nonsense.

You must be his long lost twin, the one the Martins abandoned on a
train because you were such a picky eater.

Janet UK

On 8/18/2017 2:13 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>
> I have both my mother's china and my grandmother's. Neither is
> dishwasher safe, neither has been used in at least 6 years. Our
> everyday dishes are nice enough to use for company. We don't entertain
> as much theses days too. When we pass on our kids will sell both sets
> for $3 in a garage sale.
>
>
I still have my mother's china. And yes, it's not dishwasher safe. No
one in our family ever got sick from eating off a hand washed plate.

Note: I did sell the sterling silverware in May since it was just
sitting in a chest in a drawer and never got used. Seems it was a rare
pattern, only made for one year (1951). Replacements.com snapped it up.

Jill

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 12:49:06 +0100, Janet > wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>>
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 20:19:28 -0700 (PDT), "
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:41:15 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 17:37:07 -0400, wrote:
>> >>
>> >
>> >> >You are misinformed... hand washing can do a better job of sanitizing
>> >> >because most germs are neutralized by the dishwashing liquids on the
>> >> >market shelves, has little to do with water temperature. But mostly
>> >> >if your dishes are stored in a kitchen cabinet it makes no never mind
>> >> >how washed as germs are airborne, so dishes will quickly become
>> >> >contaminated. Fortunately we have immune systems, otherwise we'd all
>> >> >be dead.
>> >> >You don't bathe in a dishwasher, your mother never bathed you in a
>> >> >dish washer... you'd be dead many years ago... your mom would be
>> >> >imprisoned.
>> >> >
>> >> >Dishwashers haven't a whit to do with health issues, they have all to
>> >> >do with *laziness*. Gary is far, FAR more intelligent regarding
>> >> >washing dishes.
>> >> >Dishwashers are ALL about LAZINESS. [period]
>> >>
>> >> This message was brought to you from 1850.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >Actually, no he is correct. We never had a dishwasher at home when
>> >I was a kid unless you call us kids dishwashers. It was rare indeed
>> >for any of us to be sick; maybe, just maybe, one of us would catch a
>> >cold but that was about it.
>> >
>> >I don't begrudge anyone using an automatic dishwasher at all but they
>> >are no more healthy or their dishes cleaner than hand washing.
>>
>> I don't believe dish washing or hand washing has a lot to do with
>> getting sick. I was commenting more on his anti dish washer rant in
>> general. There was a time when people thought trains were bad for your
>> health.
>
> Even Cheri couldn't call that a scientific contribution to the
>thread.Nobody boards a train to wash their dishes.
>
>> He's a fountain of antiquated, narrow-minded, bigoted
>> nonsense.
>
> You must be his long lost twin, the one the Martins abandoned on a
>train because you were such a picky eater.

Quoi? If you're not feeling well, just talk to someone. Help is never
far away.

Am Samstag, 19. August 2017 13:47:04 UTC+2 schrieb Jill McQuown:
> On 8/19/2017 6:31 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > On Friday, August 18, 2017 at 4:52:33 PM UTC-4, Sheldon wrote:
> >
> >> Properly cooking food kills germs, which is why restaurants won't
> >> serve burgers other than well done.
> >
> > Sure they will. I can get a rare burger at any worthwhile restaurant.
> > In Michigan, menus must have a disclaimer that basically boils down
> > to: "If you eat undercooked food, you could die a horrible, lingering
> > death and it's all your fault".
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
>
> LOLOL! For a while I collected restaurant menus. For some reason we
> wound up in Dickeyville, Wisconsin on our way back home. We had dinner
> at Shultzie's Supper Club. There was a notation at the bottom of the
> menu, something along the lines of "if you order a steak well done we'll
> ask you to leave."

"Especially if you want ketchup with it, 45."

Bye, Sanne.

On 8/18/2017 4:07 PM, Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> I only kept a different set of Limoges Porcelain that
> had been passed down from my great grandmother to my grandmoher to my
> mother and then to me. Our everyday dishes are the Blue Willow
> pattern made by Wedgewood. Our SS flatare is a copy of a Sterling
> silver pattern.
>
> I don't think we've used the LImoges set in a dozen years, mainly
> because they are gold trimmed, and at that time no manufacturer was
> putting a glaze over the gold, so it would actualy wash off the
> dishes after a few cycles.

Your great grandmother and grandmother likely didn't have automatic
diswhashers.* You're not supposed to put fine china in the dishwasher.
Of course you know this.

My bone china is rimmed with platinum. It has never seen the inside of
a dishwasher.

*Here's a fun ad for a GE dishwasher featuring Bette Davis circa 1930:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9BmidgIRM5Q

Gee, we didn't get an automatic dishwasher until 1968! It was one Mom
had to roll over and hook up to the faucet on the kitchen sink. Top
loading. I remember having to stand on my toes to put the dishes in it.
I wasn't quite tall enough to reach that bottom rack. I'm not sure
that dishwasher was worth the effort.

Jill

On 8/18/2017 1:09 AM, Sqwertz wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Aug 2017 21:16:25 -0400, jmcquown wrote:
>
>> I'm not terribly worried about germs. IMO, these days we live in an
>> extremely *germophobic* society.
>
> The irony is that those same germophobes are the same ones screaming
> about using too many antibiotics.
>
> George Carlin on Germs:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X29lF43mUlo
>
> -sw
>
George Carlin was a scream. The thing about antibiotics is many people
think if they have a cold or the flu the doctor needs to prescribe an
antibiotic. Sorry, that won't help. Antibiotics don't work on viruses.

Jill

On 8/18/2017 8:21 PM, wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
> wrote:
>
>> > wrote

>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>
>>
>> No, they don't, at least not in my house. I use around 2/12 gallons of hot
>> water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.

> You may prefer to do it by hand but my dishwasher uses far less hot
> water (thats hot water from the tap, not reheated in dishwasher) than
> that for two DAYS worth of dishes.

During droughts, they plead with people to use the dishwasher instead
of hand washing.

We've talked about this before, some woman was positive she used way
less water and they had a competition. She lost.

nancy

On Sat, 19 Aug 2017 11:33:54 +1000, Bruce >
wrote:

>On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
>wrote:
>
> wrote in message
>>news
>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
6.179.44...
>
>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>
>>
>>I use around 2/12 gallons of hot water for mine, which is what I prefer to do.
>
>That is a very specific, near scientific, statement.

Scientifically that would be 1/6 gallon or 21.33 ounces or a good
healthy pee.

On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 19:26:58 -0700, "Cheri" >
wrote:

>"Bruce" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 16:52:49 -0700, "Cheri" >
>> wrote:
>>
> wrote in message
>>>news >>>> On Fri, 18 Aug 2017 11:54:11 -0700, "Cheri" >
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:XnsA7D45D6B95EE3wayneboatwrightxgmai@69. 16.179.44...
>>
>>>> Dishwashers use far less water to do the same amount of dishes.
>>>
>>>
>>>I use around 2/12 gallons of hot water for mine, which is what I prefer to
>>>do.
>>
>> That is a very specific, near scientific, statement.
>
>
>It is because I have a two quart pitcher that I measure the water with. I
>started doing that during the serious part of the drought and have kept it
>up though the drought has eased quite a bit. Our water is metered, and one
>good thing with the drought saving measures, I have a very low water bill
>every month.
>
>Cheri

You can lower your water bill more seriously by not flushing your
toilet... instead squat behind a shrub. LOL