How MSG Got A Bad Rap: Flawed Science And Xenophobia

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features.../?ex_cid=538fb

€œAs a college student in New York City, I marveled that the city let me eat poached eggs with halloumi cheese and Moroccan spiced pita for breakfast, a spicy-sweet minced meat salad from northern Thailand for lunch, and Singaporean nasi lemak for dinner. My requisites were pretty straightforward: delicious, cheap and served in bulk. But if I was eating Chinese, I added one mo no MSG.

Like many people, I thought MSG €” monosodium glutamate, a chemical compound used to enhance the flavor of food €” was bad for me, and I was sure I felt terrible every time I ate it. After all, I was sluggish and had headaches and achy limbs whenever I ate a big meal in Chinatown. Now I know that the recurring headaches that plague me have little to do with what I eat. But at the time, avoiding those three letters brought me comfort and let me think Id be eating some sort of sacredly pure meal made with food, not chemicals. Oh, how young and foolish I was.

That MSG isnt the poison weve made it out to be has been well-established. News stories are written regularly about the lack of evidence tying MSG to negative health effects. (Read here and here, for example.. Or here, here, here, here and here.) Still, Yelp reviews of Chinese restaurants tell tales of racing hearts, sleepless nights and tingling limbs from dishes €œladen with MSG.€� Even when the science is clear, it takes a lot to overwrite a stigma, especially when that stigma is about more than just food.

Since its discovery in the early 1900s, MSG has been synonymous with delicious. When added to foods, it increases umami, which has been considered the fifth taste since the early 2000s (alongside sweet, sour, salty and bitter1) and varyingly translates from Japanese as €œtasty,€� €œscrumptiousness,€� €œdeliciousness€� or €œsavory.€� Umami is the full-bodied, savory taste found in a wide variety of foods, such as parmesan and mushrooms, as well as in most meat. MSG is its crystallized manifestation.

Kikunae Ikeda, a Japanese chemist, discovered the compound in 1907 while investigating a common quality hed noticed in foods like asparagus, tomatoes and the soup broth his wife made with seaweed. He determined that glutamate, the ionic form of glutamic acid, was responsible for umami. He then figured out how to synthesize the molecule by extracting glutamate from seaweed and mixing it with water and table salt to stabilize the compound. Ikeda patented the finished product, and it became one of Japanese food sciences greatest commercial successes. Today, the crystallized seasoning, frequently made from beets and corn, is known as MSG in the U.S. but is often called by the name Ikeda first gave it €” €œAji no Moto,€� or Essence of Taste €” in other parts of the world.
The fine, white powder was first sold in slender bottles meant to attract bourgeois housewives who were embracing science in the kitchen because it suggested hygiene and modernity, according to research by Jordan Sand, a professor of Japanese history at Georgetown University. In China, it was touted to Buddhists, who periodically abstained from eating meat, as a vegetarian way to improve flavor.

By the 1950s, MSG was found in packaged food across the U.S., from snacks to baby food. (Sand said in his 2005 paper that his 1953 edition of €œThe Joy of Cooking€� referred to monosodium glutamate as €œthe mysterious "white powder of the Orient €¦ "m.s.g., as it is nicknamed by its devotees.€�) Soon, though, MSGs chemical nature would turn against it. After the publication of Rachel Carsons €œSilent Spring€� and federal bans on sweeteners that the Food and Drug Administration deemed carcinogenic,3 consumers began to worry about chemical additives in their food. In 1968, the New England Journal of Medicine published a letter from a doctor complaining about radiating pain in his arms, weakness and heart palpitations after eating at Chinese restaurants. He mused that cooking wine, MSG or excessive salt might be to blame. Reader responses poured in with similar complaints, and scientists jumped to research the phenomenon. €œChinese Restaurant Syndrome€� was born.

Early on, researchers reported an association between consuming MSG and the symptoms cited in the New England Journal of Medicine. Inflammatory headlines and book titles followed: €œChinese food make you crazy? MSG is No. 1 Suspect,€� wrote the Chicago Tribune, while books titled €œExcitotoxins: The Taste That Kills€� and €œIn Bad Taste: The MSG Symptom Complex€� prompted FDA reviews and €œ60 Minutes€� investigations, as Alan Levinovitz, a professor of Chinese philosophy at James Madison University, chronicled in a 2015 book about food myths.

But those early studies had essential flaws, including that participants knew whether or not they were consuming MSG. Subsequent research has found that the vast majority of people, even those claiming a sensitivity to MSG, dont have any reaction when they dont know they are eating it.

That MSG causes health problems may have thrived on racially charged biases from the outset. Ian Mosby, a food historian, wrote in a 2009 paper titled €œ"That Won-Ton Soup Headache: The Chinese Restaurant Syndrome, MSG and the Making of American Food, 1968-1980€� that fear of MSG in Chinese food is part of the U.S.s long history of viewing the €œexotic€� cuisine of Asia as dangerous or dirty. As Sand put it: €œIt was the misfortune of Chinese cooks to be caught with the white powder by their stoves when the once-praised flavor enhancer suddenly became a chemical additive.€�

The concern wasnt just among the public, however. From the late 1960s to early 1980s, €œChinese Restaurant Syndrome€� was considered a legitimate ailment by many in the medical establishment, according to Mosbys research. The same cant be said today. While nearly all the U.S. research that has suggested MSG is safe has been funded by companies that have a stake in MSGs success, researchers think the science that underlies them is sound.

Of course, a small subset of people do have negative reactions that are directly due to glutamate, but the science to date shows that is likely to be a rare phenomenon. MSG is still, and has always been, on the FDAs €œgenerally recognized as safe€� food list. Several allergists I reached out to who were once go-to experts on the subject declined to comment, saying that they no longer keep up with the research.

Just because there isnt a scientific association between a given food and negative health effects doesnt mean the pain or discomfort experienced by diners is imaginary. People who suffer after eating MSG may be experiencing the nocebo effect, the lesser-known and poorly understood cousin of the placebo effect. The phenomenon is what happens when suggesting that something can cause a negative reaction induces precisely those physical symptoms. When a Chinese restaurant puts €œno MSG€� on its menu to reassure customers, it furthers the stigma, likely furthering the nocebo effect in the process. As with the placebo effect, the nocebo effect can have very real reactions.

With various chefs speaking publicly about the value of MSG, in addition to the medical establishment, the time may be ripe for the public to follow. But changing minds likely wont be easy.

As Brendan Nyhan, a Dartmouth professor who has researched how to influence attitudes about vaccines, pointed out to me in an email, its hard for people to change their minds about personal health issues because it contradicts what they have perceived to experience in the past. €œPeople who felt bad after eating Chinese food in the past may have blamed MSG €¦ and thus resist information they encounter later about its actual effects,€� he said. This may be the result of the availability heuristic, where people make judgments using the easiest information available, rather than looking for alternative explanations.

As my colleague Christie Aschwanden has explained, once we reach false conclusions, our brains prevent us from accepting new information that can correct those mistaken assumptions.

When it comes to MSG, the false connections are fairly innocuous for most people but may still cause unnecessary discomfort for some, either because they are experiencing the nocebo effect or depriving themselves of deliciousness. We all make choices about how we eat; for some people, those decisions are based on supporting local economies, avoiding meat for the humane treatment of animals, or simply wanting to know what goes into their bodies. Theres no right or wrong, but its worth understanding the origins of those choices. In the case of MSG, they appear to have been less about science and more about the culture and politics of the day€¦€�

Anna Maria Barry-Jester reports on public health, food and culture for FiveThirtyEight. @annabarryjester

Ding - Dong Daddy wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> How MSG Got A Bad Rap: Flawed Science And Xenophobia
>

Hello Ding-dong, are you prhaps well named?

That old MSG news is well known.

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:04:48 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:

>Ding - Dong Daddy wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> How MSG Got A Bad Rap: Flawed Science And Xenophobia
>>
>
>Hello Ding-dong, are you prhaps well named?
>
>That old MSG news is well known.

You're truly on the warpath today. People had better take shelter,
with your navy background and all.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:21:18 +1000, Bruce >
wrote:

>On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:04:48 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
>>Ding - Dong Daddy wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>
>>> How MSG Got A Bad Rap: Flawed Science And Xenophobia
>>>
>>
>>Hello Ding-dong, are you prhaps well named?
>>
>>That old MSG news is well known.
>
>You're truly on the warpath today. People had better take shelter,
>with your navy background and all.

I don't care about her navy background but I do know that I have a
choice, eat something with MSG and have a migraine within 30 minutes.
Not anecdotal, unfortunately true.

On 9/24/2017 5:21 PM, Bruce wrote:
> You're truly on the warpath today.

**** off outta here, troll!

On 9/24/2017 5:55 PM, wrote:
> I have a
> choice, eat something with MSG and have a migraine within 30 minutes.

Well ****ing A then - DO IT NOW!

wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 09:21:18 +1000, Bruce >
> wrote:
>
> >On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:04:48 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
> >
> > > Ding - Dong Daddy wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> > >
> >>> How MSG Got A Bad Rap: Flawed Science And Xenophobia
> >>>
> > >
> > > Hello Ding-dong, are you prhaps well named?
> > >
> > > That old MSG news is well known.
> >
> > You're truly on the warpath today. People had better take shelter,
> > with your navy background and all.
>
> I don't care about her navy background but I do know that I have a
> choice, eat something with MSG and have a migraine within 30 minutes.
> Not anecdotal, unfortunately true.

It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used in
conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there is a
small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.

--

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
>
> It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
> it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used in
> conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there is a
> small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.
>
> --

These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG. That's a personal question!

dsi1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
> >
> > It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
> > it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used
> > in conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there
> > is a small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.
> >
> > --
>
> These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a
> good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG.
> That's a personal question!

Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so with
a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it is bogus,
but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual scientific
studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE reactive to
larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural amounts such as
mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that they at most get the
one off that is discarded in tests as an anomaly factor?



--

On 9/26/2017 4:14 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
>>
>> It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
>> it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used in
>> conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there is a
>> small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.
>>
>> --
>
> These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG. That's a personal question!
>
Makes a killer antiperspirant...

....but dogs may try and lick you...

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:30:04 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:

>dsi1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
>> >
>> > It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
>> > it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used
>> > in conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there
>> > is a small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.
>> >
>> > --
>>
>> These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a
>> good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG.
>> That's a personal question!
>
>Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so with
>a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it is bogus,
>but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual scientific
>studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE reactive to
>larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural amounts such as
>mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that they at most get the
>one off that is discarded in tests as an anomaly factor?
>
>
Trust me, you patronising bitch, I have known for YEARS to stay away
from MSG.

On 9/26/2017 6:01 PM, wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:30:04 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
>> dsi1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
>>>> it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used
>>>> in conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there
>>>> is a small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>
>>> These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a
>>> good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG.
>>> That's a personal question!
>>
>> Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so with
>> a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it is bogus,
>> but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual scientific
>> studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE reactive to
>> larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural amounts such as
>> mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that they at most get the
>> one off that is discarded in tests as an anomaly factor?
>>
>>
> Trust me, you patronising bitch, I have known for YEARS to stay away
> from MSG.
>

You wicked shrew!

Take your filthy ****ing mouth and slam some Orbit in yer festering
cakehole!

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 1:30:13 PM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
>
> Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so with
> a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it is bogus,
> but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual scientific
> studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE reactive to
> larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural amounts such as
> mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that they at most get the
> one off that is discarded in tests as an anomaly factor?
>
>
>
> --

1.4 billion Chinese can't be wrong - even though they do have a tendency to be Wong.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 1:41:45 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:>
>
> Makes a killer antiperspirant...
>
> ...but dogs may try and lick you...

I sometimes use a block of amorphous salt as a deodorant. It's for those times when I don't want to smell like anything. I've had that salt for over 2 years. It really lasts a long time.

On 9/26/2017 7:01 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 1:30:13 PM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
>>
>> Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so with
>> a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it is bogus,
>> but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual scientific
>> studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE reactive to
>> larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural amounts such as
>> mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that they at most get the
>> one off that is discarded in tests as an anomaly factor?
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>
> 1.4 billion Chinese can't be wrong - even though they do have a tendency to be Wong.
>
Ba...rump!@

On 9/26/2017 7:51 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 1:41:45 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:>
>>
>> Makes a killer antiperspirant...
>>
>> ...but dogs may try and lick you...
>
> I sometimes use a block of amorphous salt as a deodorant. It's for those times when I don't want to smell like anything. I've had that salt for over 2 years. It really lasts a long time.
>

You one smart guy!

I have some from the health food coop.

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>
> You one smart guy!
>
> I have some from the health food coop.

It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin under my arms dark which is kinda strange.

I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!

https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs

dsi1 wrote:
>
> 1.4 billion Chinese can't be wrong - even though they do have a tendency to be Wong.

heh heh ;-D

On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>
>> You one smart guy!
>>
>> I have some from the health food coop.
>
> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>
> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!
>
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>

I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...

http://www.kimosabq.com/

But the drive would be unworkable.

Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.

"dsi1" wrote in message
...

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
>
> It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
> it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used in
> conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there is a
> small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.
>
> --

These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a good
thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG. That's a personal
question!

==

<g>

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

"dsi1" wrote in message
...

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>
> You one smart guy!
>
> I have some from the health food coop.

It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that stuff
with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin under my arms
dark which is kinda strange.

I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating plate
lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish of
Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish I had
was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!

https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs

==

That looks good but wow ... that is a huge amount? Will you be sharing it?

--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

"Casa de Masa" wrote in message news
On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>
>> You one smart guy!
>>
>> I have some from the health food coop.
>
> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that
> stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin under
> my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>
> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating plate
> lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish of
> Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish I had
> was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!
>
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>

I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...

http://www.kimosabq.com/

But the drive would be unworkable.

Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.

==

Ahhh a pudding! ;-)



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 9/27/2017 10:40 AM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >
> On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>>
>>> You one smart guy!
>>>
>>> I have some from the health food coop.
>>
>> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that
>> stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin
>> under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>>
>> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating
>> plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork
>> dish of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but
>> the dish I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good
>> thing!
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>>
>>
>
> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>
> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>
> But the drive would be unworkable.
>
> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>
> ==
>
> Ahhh a pudding!Â*Â* ;-)
>
>
>

Huh uh:

https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...s49mIVIQ/o.jpg

Hawaiian donuts!

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:41:55 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>
> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>
> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>
> But the drive would be unworkable.
>
> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.

The Hawaiians are serious about food. It has blossomed into the most remarkable food culture in the last 30 years. If the malasadas are done right it can be seriously life changing. The best ones made to order and eaten within 10 minutes. After a few hours, it loses it's appeal - for me anyway.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqwo168PW2E

"Casa de Masa" wrote in message news
On 9/27/2017 10:40 AM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Casa de Masa" wrote in message news >
> On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>>
>>> You one smart guy!
>>>
>>> I have some from the health food coop.
>>
>> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that
>> stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin
>> under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>>
>> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating plate
>> lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish of
>> Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish I
>> had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!
>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>>
>
> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>
> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>
> But the drive would be unworkable.
>
> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>
> ==
>
> Ahhh a pudding! ;-)
>
>
>

Huh uh:

https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...s49mIVIQ/o.jpg

Hawaiian donuts!

===

Yummm more puddings ...


--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 9/27/2017 11:25 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:41:55 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>
>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>>
>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>
>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>
>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>
> The Hawaiians are serious about food. It has blossomed into the most remarkable food culture in the last 30 years. If the malasadas are done right it can be seriously life changing. The best ones made to order and eaten within 10 minutes. After a few hours, it loses it's appeal - for me anyway.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqwo168PW2E
>

Just like their New Awleans cousin, the beignet.

Or even the more cripsy fried churro!

But a sopaiopilla is still aces high around he

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbQZ0yIBqM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VESDexeZXY

On 9/27/2017 11:55 AM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >
> On 9/27/2017 10:40 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >>
>> On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You one smart guy!
>>>>
>>>> I have some from the health food coop.
>>>
>>> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of
>>> that stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the
>>> skin under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>>>
>>> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating
>>> plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork
>>> dish of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but
>>> the dish I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good
>>> thing!
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>>
>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>
>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>
>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>>
>> ==
>>
>> Ahhh a pudding!Â*Â* ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>
> Huh uh:
>
> https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...s49mIVIQ/o.jpg
>
> Hawaiian donuts!
>
> ===
>
> Yummm more puddings ...
>
>
Izzat what you call 'em?

Hmmm...

"Casa de Masa" wrote in message news
On 9/27/2017 11:55 AM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Casa de Masa" wrote in message news >
> On 9/27/2017 10:40 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Casa de Masa" wrote in message news >>
>> On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>>>
>>>> You one smart guy!
>>>>
>>>> I have some from the health food coop.
>>>
>>> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that
>>> stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin
>>> under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>>>
>>> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating
>>> plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish
>>> of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish
>>> I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>>>
>>
>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>>
>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>
>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>
>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>>
>> ==
>>
>> Ahhh a pudding! ;-)
>>
>>
>>
>
> Huh uh:
>
> https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...s49mIVIQ/o.jpg
>
> Hawaiian donuts!
>
> ===
>
> Yummm more puddings ...
>
>
Izzat what you call 'em?

Hmmm...

==

Depends if you eat them with custard or ice cream .... otherwise they are
buns. <g>




--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 9/27/2017 1:28 PM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >
> On 9/27/2017 11:55 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >>
>> On 9/27/2017 10:40 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>>> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >>>
>>> On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You one smart guy!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have some from the health food coop.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of
>>>> that stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the
>>>> skin under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>>>>
>>>> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating
>>>> plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork
>>>> dish of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but
>>>> the dish I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good
>>>> thing!
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my
>>> life...sigh...
>>>
>>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>>
>>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>>
>>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>>>
>>> ==
>>>
>>> Ahhh a pudding!Â*Â* ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Huh uh:
>>
>> https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...s49mIVIQ/o.jpg
>>
>> Hawaiian donuts!
>>
>> ===
>>
>> Yummm more puddings ...
>>
>>
> Izzat what you call 'em?
>
> Hmmm...
>
> ==
>
> Depends if you eat them with custard or ice cream .... otherwise they
> are buns. <g>
>
>
>
>
Ok then!

I go straight up with sugar, or honey for sopaipillas.

"Casa de Masa" wrote in message news
On 9/27/2017 1:28 PM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Casa de Masa" wrote in message news >
> On 9/27/2017 11:55 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Casa de Masa" wrote in message news >>
>> On 9/27/2017 10:40 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>>> "Casa de Masa" wrote in message news >>>
>>> On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> You one smart guy!
>>>>>
>>>>> I have some from the health food coop.
>>>>
>>>> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that
>>>> stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin
>>>> under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>>>>
>>>> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating
>>>> plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish
>>>> of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish
>>>> I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!
>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>>>>
>>>
>>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my
>>> life...sigh...
>>>
>>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>>
>>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>>
>>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>>>
>>> ==
>>>
>>> Ahhh a pudding! ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Huh uh:
>>
>> https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...s49mIVIQ/o.jpg
>>
>> Hawaiian donuts!
>>
>> ===
>>
>> Yummm more puddings ...
>>
>>
> Izzat what you call 'em?
>
> Hmmm...
>
> ==
>
> Depends if you eat them with custard or ice cream .... otherwise they are
> buns. <g>
>
>
>
>
Ok then!

I go straight up with sugar, or honey for sopaipillas.

===

I had to Google that. They look good)



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 9/27/2017 3:09 PM, Ophelia wrote:
> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >
> On 9/27/2017 1:28 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >>
>> On 9/27/2017 11:55 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>>> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >>>
>>> On 9/27/2017 10:40 AM, Ophelia wrote:
>>>> "Casa de Masa"Â* wrote in message news >>>>
>>>> On 9/27/2017 1:14 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You one smart guy!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have some from the health food coop.
>>>>>
>>>>> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of
>>>>> that stuff with the ship on the container. I think it might turn
>>>>> the skin under my arms dark which is kinda strange.
>>>>>
>>>>> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating
>>>>> plate lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork
>>>>> dish of Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but
>>>>> the dish I had was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good
>>>>> thing!
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my
>>>> life...sigh...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>>>
>>>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>>>
>>>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>>>>
>>>> ==
>>>>
>>>> Ahhh a pudding!Â*Â* ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> Huh uh:
>>>
>>> https://s3-media1.fl.yelpcdn.com/bph...s49mIVIQ/o.jpg
>>>
>>> Hawaiian donuts!
>>>
>>> ===
>>>
>>> Yummm more puddings ...
>>>
>>>
>> Izzat what you call 'em?
>>
>> Hmmm...
>>
>> ==
>>
>> Depends if you eat them with custard or ice cream .... otherwise they
>> are buns. <g>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Ok then!
>
> I go straight up with sugar, or honey for sopaipillas.
>
> ===
>
> I had to Google that.Â* They look good)
>
>
>
Oh are they - just got back from an early dinner finished
with...sopaipillas and honey!

wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 18:30:04 -0500, "cshenk" > wrote:
>
> > dsi1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >
> >> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
> >> >
> >> > It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show
> that >> > it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients
> often used >> > in conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I
> think there >> > is a small set of real folks who do react to an
> overage of it. >> >
> >> > --
> >>
> >> These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a
> >> good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG.
> >> That's a personal question!
> >
> > Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so
> > with a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it
> > is bogus, but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual
> > scientific studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE
> > reactive to larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural
> > amounts such as mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that
> > they at most get the one off that is discarded in tests as an
> > anomaly factor?
> >
> >
> Trust me, you patronising bitch, I have known for YEARS to stay away
> from MSG.

Ok, you have issues even when people say studies (true scientific ones
with repeatable results) say your issue can't be proven but call me
names because I think your issues may ne a missed part of that and say
they may be real? Now I'm a Patronising bitch for saying your issues
may be real?

Did you read the message or just 'auto-react'??

--

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 1:30:13 PM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
> dsi1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
> > On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
> > >
> > > It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show that
> > > it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients often used
> > > in conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said, I think there
> > > is a small set of real folks who do react to an overage of it.
> > >
> > > --
> >
> > These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's a
> > good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG.
> > That's a personal question!
>
> Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so with
> a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it is bogus,
> but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual scientific
> studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE reactive to
> larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural amounts such as
> mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that they at most get the
> one off that is discarded in tests as an anomaly factor?
>
>
>
> --

She might also be the center of the universe. That could happen too.

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 6:44:03 AM UTC-10, Ophelia wrote:
> "dsi1" wrote in message
> ...
>
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
> >
> > You one smart guy!
> >
> > I have some from the health food coop.
>
> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that stuff
> with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin under my arms
> dark which is kinda strange.
>
> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating plate
> lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish of
> Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish I had
> was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!
>
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>
> ==
>
> That looks good but wow ... that is a huge amount? Will you be sharing it?
>
> --
> http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes, I ate some and took it home. My daughter ate some and gave it to my wife. I might buy a plate from that place again today. They serve a pretty great roast beef. My boss's wife says they make a great meatloaf. She eats part of it and makes a meatloaf sandwich for the next day's lunch. Hoo boy!

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 7:56:19 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
> On 9/27/2017 11:25 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:41:55 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
> >>
> >> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh....
> >>
> >> http://www.kimosabq.com/
> >>
> >> But the drive would be unworkable.
> >>
> >> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
> >
> > The Hawaiians are serious about food. It has blossomed into the most remarkable food culture in the last 30 years. If the malasadas are done right it can be seriously life changing. The best ones made to order and eaten within 10 minutes. After a few hours, it loses it's appeal - for me anyway.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqwo168PW2E
> >
>
> Just like their New Awleans cousin, the beignet.
>
> Or even the more cripsy fried churro!
>
> But a sopaiopilla is still aces high around he
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbQZ0yIBqM
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VESDexeZXY

Yeah, those are great. Fried bread is a wonderful thing. I don't get nearly enough fried bread in my life. The most common fried bread in Hawaii is the andagi AKA, Okinawan doughnut.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdLAGcZxYfs

"dsi1" wrote in message
...

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 6:44:03 AM UTC-10, Ophelia wrote:
> "dsi1" wrote in message
> ...
>
> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 6:10:00 PM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
> >
> > You one smart guy!
> >
> > I have some from the health food coop.
>
> It doesn't leave a greasy feeling under your pits and no smell of that
> stuff
> with the ship on the container. I think it might turn the skin under my
> arms
> dark which is kinda strange.
>
> I've been working in town during the day so I'll probably be eating plate
> lunch most days. Today I had shoyu pork. It's a braised pork dish of
> Okinawan origin. A lot of places make it with pork butt but the dish I had
> was prepared properly - with pork belly. A very good thing!
>
> https://www.amazon.com/photos/share/...11ikDay80hmTgs
>
> ==
>
> That looks good but wow ... that is a huge amount? Will you be sharing
> it?
>
> --
> http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

Yes, I ate some and took it home. My daughter ate some and gave it to my
wife. I might buy a plate from that place again today. They serve a pretty
great roast beef. My boss's wife says they make a great meatloaf. She eats
part of it and makes a meatloaf sandwich for the next day's lunch. Hoo boy!

==

))))



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On 9/28/2017 10:40 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 7:56:19 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>> On 9/27/2017 11:25 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:41:55 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>>>>
>>>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>>>
>>>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>>>
>>>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>>>
>>> The Hawaiians are serious about food. It has blossomed into the most remarkable food culture in the last 30 years. If the malasadas are done right it can be seriously life changing. The best ones made to order and eaten within 10 minutes. After a few hours, it loses it's appeal - for me anyway.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqwo168PW2E
>>>
>>
>> Just like their New Awleans cousin, the beignet.
>>
>> Or even the more cripsy fried churro!
>>
>> But a sopaiopilla is still aces high around he
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbQZ0yIBqM
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VESDexeZXY
>
> Yeah, those are great. Fried bread is a wonderful thing. I don't get nearly enough fried bread in my life. The most common fried bread in Hawaii is the andagi AKA, Okinawan doughnut.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdLAGcZxYfs
>

Oh man, that is a vat of bubbling goodness!

Full plate sized Indian fry bread is awesome too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7re_zwU6O64

And mmmm...grilled mutton over coals!

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 10:23:13 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
> On 9/28/2017 10:40 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> > On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 7:56:19 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
> >> On 9/27/2017 11:25 AM, dsi1 wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:41:55 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
> >>>>
> >>>> But the drive would be unworkable.
> >>>>
> >>>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
> >>>
> >>> The Hawaiians are serious about food. It has blossomed into the most remarkable food culture in the last 30 years. If the malasadas are done right it can be seriously life changing. The best ones made to order and eaten within 10 minutes. After a few hours, it loses it's appeal - for me anyway..
> >>>
> >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqwo168PW2E
> >>>
> >>
> >> Just like their New Awleans cousin, the beignet.
> >>
> >> Or even the more cripsy fried churro!
> >>
> >> But a sopaiopilla is still aces high around he
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbQZ0yIBqM
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VESDexeZXY
> >
> > Yeah, those are great. Fried bread is a wonderful thing. I don't get nearly enough fried bread in my life. The most common fried bread in Hawaii is the andagi AKA, Okinawan doughnut.
> >
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdLAGcZxYfs
> >
>
> Oh man, that is a vat of bubbling goodness!
>
> Full plate sized Indian fry bread is awesome too:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7re_zwU6O64
>
> And mmmm...grilled mutton over coals!

Fry bread has probably killed a lot of the peoples of the Indian nations. OTOH, I'd bite that sucker if it was in front of my pie hole!

dsi1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 1:30:13 PM UTC-10, cshenk wrote:
> > dsi1 wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >
> > > On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 10:41:17 AM UTC-10, cshenk
> > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It is rare and the scientifically conducted studies don't show
> > > > that it's MSG being reacted to, but instead other ingredients
> > > > often used in conjunction with MSG in asian diets. That said,
> > > > I think there is a small set of real folks who do react to an
> > > > overage of it.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > >
> > > These days, MSG is getting to be more socially acceptable. That's
> > > a good thing. I just hate it when people ask me it I've used MSG.
> > > That's a personal question!
> >
> > Yes, but don't ignore that Lucretia may be the '1 in 10,000' or so
> > with a real issue she isn't making up. Most of the hype about it
> > is bogus, but her's may be real. As best as I can tell from actual
> > scientific studies, it's a low enough number that may actually BE
> > reactive to larger than normal amounts of it (beyond natural
> > amounts such as mushrooms which are fairly loaded with it) that
> > they at most get the one off that is discarded in tests as an
> > anomaly factor?
> >
> >
> >
> > --
>
> She might also be the center of the universe. That could happen too.

Smile, but still, she may be one of the very few not properly tracked
in scientific studies. LOL, meantime I am a 'patronising bitch' for
agreeing she may have real issues. Isn't that nice?

--

On 9/28/2017 4:03 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 10:23:13 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>> On 9/28/2017 10:40 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 7:56:19 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>>> On 9/27/2017 11:25 AM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:41:55 AM UTC-10, Casa de Masa wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I could eat a lunch like that every day for the rest of my life...sigh...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.kimosabq.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the drive would be unworkable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Their malasadas are a welcome treat on a pretty thin menu.
>>>>>
>>>>> The Hawaiians are serious about food. It has blossomed into the most remarkable food culture in the last 30 years. If the malasadas are done right it can be seriously life changing. The best ones made to order and eaten within 10 minutes. After a few hours, it loses it's appeal - for me anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqwo168PW2E
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just like their New Awleans cousin, the beignet.
>>>>
>>>> Or even the more cripsy fried churro!
>>>>
>>>> But a sopaiopilla is still aces high around he
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvbQZ0yIBqM
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VESDexeZXY
>>>
>>> Yeah, those are great. Fried bread is a wonderful thing. I don't get nearly enough fried bread in my life. The most common fried bread in Hawaii is the andagi AKA, Okinawan doughnut.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdLAGcZxYfs
>>>
>>
>> Oh man, that is a vat of bubbling goodness!
>>
>> Full plate sized Indian fry bread is awesome too:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7re_zwU6O64
>>
>> And mmmm...grilled mutton over coals!
>
> Fry bread has probably killed a lot of the peoples of the Indian nations.

I agree - lard and flour were cheap staples the BIA stuck them with,
sadly...along with the damned gubmint cheese:

http://fmobserver.com/wp-content/upl...tCheesePX1.jpg

> OTOH, I'd bite that sucker if it was in front of my pie hole!

Plus Monument Valley is one of the most beautiful places on earth!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf4zsZ4Ot2Q