On 11/29/2017 8:12 PM, Bruce wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 21:20:38 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On 11/29/2017 8:28 PM, Bruce wrote:
>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 20:11:22 -0500, wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2017 16:20:07 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> We have a small family owned soda company not far from us. The daughter
>>>>> runs the store and told me her father gets annoyed when she does that.
>>>>> "I worked all day to put the fizz in there just for you to take it out"
>>>>
>>>> In Brooklyn I grew up on home delivered seltza in siphon bottles, no
>>>> store seltza today is nearly as good.... can't make a decent eggcream
>>>> with today's seltza flatter than an A cup.
>>>
>>> You're one of these fuddy duddies who think everything was better in
>>> the past. The sky was bluer, the grass was greener and the breasts
>>> were bigger. Right?
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about breasts, but many products have been cheapened over
>> the years. Baked goods in supermarkets are crap compared to the good
>> bakeries of years ago. Some ice cream brands have added more fillers.
>> A couple of years ago a bakery about 30 miles from me closed. I've not
>> had a loaf of rye bread nearly as good since. I know where I can get
>> it, but it is 250 miles away.
>>
>> There are a few good places around. Twice a hear we go to Nodines for a
>> ham and pick p a bunch of bacon. Far superior to the supermarket stuff.
>>
>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>> years ago. Cars are much better.
>
> People lived shorter, there were more wars, there was no internet.
>

Trolls got beaten to a bloody pulp too.

;-)

On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
> years ago.

You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
but still use my 'desktop' computer.

> Cars are much better.

How so?

I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
timing chains.

Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR). Yer car is crawling
with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc). I'm not even gonna discuss
the whole 'IoT' nonsense.

All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes add more
weight, which kills fuel consumption. My '87 Civic got 38mpg (real
commute data). Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on gettting 28mpg.
Why? All that copper wire weighs a lot!

IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!

nb

On 2017-11-30 9:34 AM, notbob wrote:

>> Cars are much better.
>
> How so?
>
> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
> timing chains.

There are some advantages to timing belts. The problem is that they can
break, and that can cause major problems.

I have to agree with Ed about cars being better these days. The bodies
and engines last longer. When I was working and commuting 45 miles in
the 80s I went through cars in 4-5 years by which time they were
starting to rust out. I had an AMC that ran like crap throughout its
warranty, a problem that cleared up when they did a valve job ... after
the warranty was up. I had a Pontiac that always pinged because of a bad
cam, had a bad fuel pump and rotted away. Ford..... well.... Found On
Road Dead was a well earned nickname. Since then I have had a couple
Mazdas and Hondas and a Toyota and have had great luck with them. I was
pleased with the Buick we bought from my mother when she lost her
license. That car lasted 18 years and got great mileage.



>

notbob wrote:

> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
> > OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
> > years ago.
>
> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
> but still use my 'desktop' computer.


If computing power costs were figured by 1990 standards, the cheapest cell phone today would cost several million dollars...

TV's are far superior to any available in the past, and TV prices have declined 90% in real costs, adjusted for inflation, since the 90's.


>
> > Cars are much better.
>
> How so?
>
> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
> timing chains.
>
> Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR). Yer car is crawling
> with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc). I'm not even gonna discuss
> the whole 'IoT' nonsense.
>
> All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes add more
> weight, which kills fuel consumption. My '87 Civic got 38mpg (real
> commute data). Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on gettting 28mpg.
> Why? All that copper wire weighs a lot!


Even the cheapest car today is far, far superior to what was available 40 - 50 years ago, there is simply no comparison...

I'm an old car fan, and I consider today's car styling pretty much an abomination, but I'd dread driving a 70's era or earlier car any considerable distance...


> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!


That's because the Japanese made *better* cars starting around that time...


--
Best
Greg

On 11/30/2017 7:34 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>> years ago.
>
> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>
>> Cars are much better.
>
> How so?
>
> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
> timing chains.

Always a chain - I've never seen one break.

> Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR). Yer car is crawling
> with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc). I'm not even gonna discuss
> the whole 'IoT' nonsense.

All cop addressable if you get in an accident.

> All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes add more
> weight, which kills fuel consumption. My '87 Civic got 38mpg (real
> commute data). Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on gettting 28mpg.
> Why? All that copper wire weighs a lot!

Ekshually cars are starting to come down on weight (way down) and also
in engine configuration and displacement.

Volvo's current turbo and supercharged mills are an example.

Folks demand more power because it can be done easily now and ergo
mileage suffers.

The use of aluminum and composites and carbon fiber is a direct response
to unrealistic CAFE standards.

You really don't want to be in car accident if your ride meets the EPA
52 MPG rating.

> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!
>
> nb
>

1974?

That's when the EPA gear became a strangler of HP, which one do you
posit was worth even scrap metal then?

On 11/30/2017 7:58 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
> There are some advantages to timing belts.

Not compared to breakage which a timing chain almost never does.

YMMV

On 11/30/2017 8:45 AM, Feelings wrote:
> notbob wrote:
>
>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>>> years ago.
>>
>> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>
>
> If computing power costs were figured by 1990 standards, the cheapest cell phone today would cost several million dollars...

Now we can addict kids early in life:

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-rele...300558945.html

> TV's are far superior to any available in the past, and TV prices have declined 90% in real costs, adjusted for inflation, since the 90's.

True dat.

>>
>>> Cars are much better.
>>
>> How so?
>>
>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
>> timing chains.
>>
>> Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR). Yer car is crawling
>> with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc). I'm not even gonna discuss
>> the whole 'IoT' nonsense.
>>
>> All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes add more
>> weight, which kills fuel consumption. My '87 Civic got 38mpg (real
>> commute data). Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on gettting 28mpg.
>> Why? All that copper wire weighs a lot!
>
>
> Even the cheapest car today is far, far superior to what was available 40 - 50 years ago, there is simply no comparison...

Yep.

> I'm an old car fan, and I consider today's car styling pretty much an abomination, but I'd dread driving a 70's era or earlier car any considerable distance...

Well, maybe a nice Datsun 240 Z perhaps?

>> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!
>
>
> That's because the Japanese made *better* cars starting around that time...

Just before, but yes they stepped up the quality big time.

On 11/30/2017 9:34 AM, notbob wrote:
> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>> years ago.
>
> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>
>> Cars are much better.
>
> How so?
>
> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
> timing chains.
>
> Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR). Yer car is crawling
> with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc). I'm not even gonna discuss
> the whole 'IoT' nonsense.
>
> All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes add more
> weight, which kills fuel consumption. My '87 Civic got 38mpg (real
> commute data). Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on gettting 28mpg.
> Why? All that copper wire weighs a lot!
>
> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!
>
> nb
>
SS exhaust systems that last 15+ years
Spark plugs go 100,000 miles instead of clean at 5k, replace at 10k
Oil changes 7500 miles
HID or LED lighting
Less pollution
ABS, AEB

As for weight, my car is 5400#

On 11/30/2017 9:35 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 11/30/2017 9:34 AM, notbob wrote:
>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>>> years ago.
>>
>> You must mean they are "much smaller".Â* I tossed my cell phone acct,
>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>>
>>> Cars are much better.
>>
>> How so?
>>
>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed.Â* IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble).Â* Usta be, all engines had
>> timing chains.
>>
>> Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR).Â* Yer car is crawling
>> with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc).Â* I'm not even gonna discuss
>> the whole 'IoT' nonsense.
>>
>> All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes add more
>> weight, which kills fuel consumption.Â* My '87 Civic got 38mpg (real
>> commute data).Â* Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on gettting 28mpg.
>> Why?Â* All that copper wire weighs a lot!
>>
>> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!Â*
>>
>> nb
>>
> SS exhaust systems that last 15+ years
> Spark plugs go 100,000 miles instead of clean at 5k, replace at 10k
> Oil changes 7500 miles
> HID or LED lighting
> Less pollution
> ABS, AEB
>
> As for weight, my car is 5400#

She's a heavy one then, well par with 60s iron.

On 11/30/2017 9:34 AM, l not -l wrote:
> On 30-Nov-2017, wrote:
>
>> On 11/30/2017 9:34 AM, notbob wrote:
>>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>>
>>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available
>>>> not many
>>>> years ago.
>>>
>>> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell
>>> phone acct,
>>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>>>
>>>> Cars are much better.
>>>
>>> How so?
>>>
>>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference'
>>> engines
>>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on
>>> an
>>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born
>>> to break),
>>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all
>>> engines had
>>> timing chains.
>>>
>>> Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR). Yer car is
>>> crawling
>>> with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc). I'm not even
>>> gonna discuss
>>> the whole 'IoT' nonsense.
>>>
>>> All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes
>>> add more
>>> weight, which kills fuel consumption. My '87 Civic got 38mpg
>>> (real
>>> commute data). Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on
>>> gettting 28mpg.
>>> Why? All that copper wire weighs a lot!
>>>
>>> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!
>>>
>>> nb
>>>
>> SS exhaust systems that last 15+ years
>> Spark plugs go 100,000 miles instead of clean at 5k, replace at
>> 10k
>> Oil changes 7500 miles
>> HID or LED lighting
>> Less pollution
>> ABS, AEB
>>
>> As for weight, my car is 5400#
> And, most important of all, new ones will stop or keep you in
> your lane when you are busy with your smart phone.
>

My new car doesn't have the "lane keeping" feature - that is a more
expensive model.

But these old ears LOVE the hands free phone feature, and I may have to
go out to the car just sitting in the driveway to do more of my phone
calls, just so I can hear.

On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> SS exhaust systems that last 15+ years

My '87 Civic's non-SS exhaust system lasted 20 yrs.

> Spark plugs go 100,000 miles instead of clean at 5k, replace at 10k

I rarely replaced my plugs. Got 250K miles from engine.

> Oil changes 7500 miles

Yer supposed ta change that crud? I merely topped mine off.

> HID or LED lighting

When I still lived on a motorcycle, the CHP usta bust bikers that
customized their bikes with halogen headlights. 20 yrs later, they
were std equipment on cars. I usta let my Civic's rear window stay
dirty so ppl tailgating my ass (w/ halogens!) wouldn't give me a
freakin' headache during 0-dark-thirty commutes.

Kinda like a tinted-glass Mercedes with such a loud sound-system,
pedestrians go deaf at 2 blocks, yet poor folks get pulled over fer
wearing head/ear phones in car.

> Less pollution

Granted. Less gas mileage, too. Have you seen the size of today's
vehicles? Trucks are larger than ever.

> ABS, AEB

'event data recorders' (read "spy on you")

> As for weight, my car is 5400#

Mine weighed less than 1500 lbs. No doubt due to it NOT having a
single electrical 'convenience' control in entire car.

I've had this discussion, before. Not going there, again.

nb

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:34:33 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
> > OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
> > years ago.
>
> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>
> > Cars are much better.
>
> How so?
>
> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
> timing chains.

Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.

Cindy Hamilton

On 11/30/2017 10:34 AM, l not -l wrote:
> On 30-Nov-2017, wrote:
>
>> On 11/30/2017 9:34 AM, notbob wrote:
>>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>>
>>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available
>>>> not many
>>>> years ago.
>>>
>>> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell
>>> phone acct,
>>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>>>
>>>> Cars are much better.
>>>
>>> How so?
>>>
>>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference'
>>> engines
>>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on
>>> an
>>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born
>>> to break),
>>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all
>>> engines had
>>> timing chains.
>>>
>>> Also, howzabout 'event data recorders' (EDR). Yer car is
>>> crawling
>>> with 'em (ABS, air bags, seat belts, etc). I'm not even
>>> gonna discuss
>>> the whole 'IoT' nonsense.
>>>
>>> All those 'seat warmers', electric outside mirrors, etc, jes
>>> add more
>>> weight, which kills fuel consumption. My '87 Civic got 38mpg
>>> (real
>>> commute data). Ten yrs later, Civics were bragging on
>>> gettting 28mpg.
>>> Why? All that copper wire weighs a lot!
>>>
>>> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!
>>>
>>> nb
>>>
>> SS exhaust systems that last 15+ years
>> Spark plugs go 100,000 miles instead of clean at 5k, replace at
>> 10k
>> Oil changes 7500 miles
>> HID or LED lighting
>> Less pollution
>> ABS, AEB
>>
>> As for weight, my car is 5400#
> And, most important of all, new ones will stop or keep you in
> your lane when you are busy with your smart phone.
>

Ah yes, self protection against weapons of mass distraction!

A lateral play.

On 2017-11-30, Cindy Hamilton > wrote:

> Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.

Always one exception.

I've owned dozens of cars (2 '74s). NEVER had a timing chain break.
Never even HEARD of a timing chain breaking. Yer the first.

Priced a new car, lately? I could buy a house for what they want fer
a new car. I don't even see 'prices to buy', any more. Only 'lease'
prices.

I love that documentary on food. Shows a latino family trying to
survive on scarf/barf fast food versus buying real veggies/fruits at local
sprmkt. Can't do it! ....according to the documentary. Poor
immigrants gotta eat at McD's, cuz real food is 'too expensive'.
'Course, the family is tooling around in a relatively new SUV that
hadda cost close to $30K USD. Howzat work?

nb

On 11/30/2017 10:54 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:34:33 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>>> years ago.
>>
>> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>>
>>> Cars are much better.
>>
>> How so?
>>
>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
>> timing chains.
>
> Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

Wow, that's not a very common occurrence - how many miles?

And which engine?

On 2017-11-30 11:35 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 11/30/2017 9:34 AM, notbob wrote:

>> IME, the USA has not made a good car since 1974!!Â*
>>
>> nb
>>
> SS exhaust systems that last 15+ years
> Spark plugs go 100,000 miles instead of clean at 5k, replace at 10k
> Oil changes 7500 miles
> HID or LED lighting
> Less pollution
> ABS, AEB

Tires used to have inner tubes and a very short life. Cars had regular
tries for spares, and they were used frequently. If you travelled any
significant distance you could count on having at least one flat tire on
the way. Everyone had to know who to change tires. They used to be worn
out in less than 20,000 miles. Now they last 50,000 or more.

notbob wrote:
>
> Priced a new car, lately? I could buy a house for what they want fer
> a new car. I don't even see 'prices to buy', any more. Only 'lease'
> prices.

No kidding, notbob. I've been driving a cost-free company car for
10 years now. Company pays for everything yet I have permission
to drive on personal time. I don't take advantage of that though.
I rarely drive on personal time. Avg - 5 miles per week.

Whenever my situation ends, I'm really hoping to live somewhere
(like right now) where I won't need to buy my own car and all the
many expenses involved. Hope to be where I can just walk or ride
bike to the occasional stores. Not only free, but it will be
great exercise for retired me.

Owning a car is very costly.
- monthly price of very overpriced car (or initial outlay of
money)
- personal property tax on it each year
- insurance
- tags and inspections
- repairs (which are never cheap anymore)
- occasional towing to the shop
- cost of gas!
- even the pain in the ass to wash it occasionally.

Would be stupid of me to put all that out for a vehicle
that I would drive on average 5-10 miles a week.
Not going to happen...ever.

On 11/30/2017 12:21 PM, l not -l wrote:
> On 30-Nov-2017, notbob > wrote:
>
>> On 2017-11-30, Cindy Hamilton >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.
>>
>> Always one exception.
>>
>> I've owned dozens of cars (2 '74s). NEVER had a timing chain
>> break.
>> Never even HEARD of a timing chain breaking. Yer the first.
>>
>>
>> Priced a new car, lately? I could buy a house for what they
>> want fer
>> a new car. I don't even see 'prices to buy', any more. Only
>> 'lease'
>> prices.
> Truck prices were the big surprise to me. You can't buy a basic
> work truck anymore; they are all duded up and over $40k. What
> happened to a good basic work truck; no leather, rubber floor
> mats instead of carpet and AM/FM radio. Joe Sixpack, needs a
> basic truck for $20k; heck, I bet he'd even be willing to
> manually crank windows up and down instead of using a button to
> control a motor that will cost a thousand $$ to repair when it
> fails.
>

Well...yer in luck, still:

https://www.edmunds.com/car-reviews/...-for-2015.html


2015 Nissan Frontier1. 2015 Nissan Frontier €” $17,990
2015 Chevrolet Colorado2. 2015 Chevrolet Colorado €” $20,120
2015 Toyota Tacoma3. 2015 Toyota Tacoma €” $20,765
2015 GMC Canyon4. 2015 GMC Canyon €” $20,995


http://www.trucktrend.com/features/1...pickup-trucks/

2017 Colorado Extended Cab Base 2WD - $20,995
Minus the $995 destination charge, the starting price on the 2017 Chevy
Colorado is $20,000 exactly. Equipment largely mirrors that of the
Canyon SL. However, if you have the need for more than two passengers,
youll have to pony up a little more for the WT trim, as the base trim
ditches the rear seat altogether, making the rear seating area into
enclosed storage. As with the Canyon, its not at all hard to get a
Colorado to well over $40,000 with all the goodies on it. However, if
you can exercise Zen-like self-restraint with the options sheet, and can
live with steel wheels, you can get yourself a Colorado for just a tad
above $20k.

2017 GMC Canyon SL 2WD - $21,885
Although just below $22,000 including $995 destination, the Canyon still
offers a pretty good deal for a midsize truck. Even the base trim SL
offers standard power windows, four-wheel disc brakes, air conditioning,
a six-speaker sound system with USB input, a power driver seat with
manual recline. Although the Canyon weighs a somewhat chunky 3,944
pounds even in base trim, the 200 hp 2.5L I-4 is up to the task when
paired to the standard six-speed manual transmission and 4.10 rear axle
ratio. The base I-4 also happens to be the only configuration you can
get with a stick shift, so if youre a die-hard devotee of the
row-your-own-gears philosophy, then its your sole choice.
To get the 308 hp 3.6L V-6, you have to step up to the eponymous
€œCanyon€� trim, which also brings the price up to $26,985. Well out of
bargain-basement territory, but still not a bad deal. While the V-6 is
clearly more powerful, and likely the one most of the Truck Trend staff
would select over the base I-4, the standard engine isnt so hopeless we
would discourage anyone from considering it.

2017 Toyota Tacoma SR Access Cab 2WD - $23,565
Getting a new 2017 Toyota Tacoma requires some real money, in this case
$23,565, including $960 destination. Interestingly, the 2WD Tacoma is
only available with a six-speed automatic transmission. To get a manual
with the I-4, you have to get a 4x4, and lose a ratio for a five-speed.
If you step up to the V-6 model, the stick is a six-speed. The base 2.7L
I-4 has been around for more than a decade and carries over largely
unchanged from its predecessor, other than now being mated to a
six-speed automatic instead of a four-speed.
Like the I-4 Frontier, dont expect blazing acceleration from the
four-pot Taco. However, you can expect some of the highest historical
resale values in the industry. The Tacomas legendary resale is great
when the original owners decide to sell but not as sweet a deal for used
buyers. However, Toyotas also-legendary durability and reliability
ensures that these trucks will still be barely broken in at 60,000 or
100,000 miles, assuming theyve had basic maintenance, making them good
for another 100,000-plus miles of use.

"Feelings" wrote in message
...



That's because the Japanese made *better* cars starting around that time...
Best
Greg

==

Still are in our house We both have Japanese imports. Mitsubishi
Pajeros/Shoguns

One 1993 the other 1994. Great cars and we've had no problems with them

When I think of the fancy new cars I've had which haven't lasted nearly so
long as these ...



--
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk

On Thu, 30 Nov 2017 14:23:23 -0500, Gary > wrote:

>No kidding, notbob. I've been driving a cost-free company car for
>10 years now. Company pays for everything yet I have permission
>to drive on personal time. I don't take advantage of that though.
>I rarely drive on personal time. Avg - 5 miles per week.
>
>Whenever my situation ends, I'm really hoping to live somewhere
>(like right now) where I won't need to buy my own car and all the
>many expenses involved. Hope to be where I can just walk or ride
>bike to the occasional stores. Not only free, but it will be
>great exercise for retired me.
>
>Owning a car is very costly.
>- monthly price of very overpriced car (or initial outlay of
>money)
>- personal property tax on it each year

I guess that's the equivalent of what is called road tax here.

>- insurance
>- tags and inspections
>- repairs (which are never cheap anymore)
>- occasional towing to the shop
>- cost of gas!
>- even the pain in the ass to wash it occasionally.

I've had my current car for 9 years and I've never washed the outside
of it. I think it would get a shock and start to rust faster.

>Would be stupid of me to put all that out for a vehicle
>that I would drive on average 5-10 miles a week.
>Not going to happen...ever.

Just buy the right kind of bike and you can transport groceries etc.
with it:
<http://www.wijnand-hazeleger.nl/images/Bakfiets-Bakfiets%203-big.jpg>

On 2017-11-30 2:21 PM, l not -l wrote:
> On 30-Nov-2017, notbob > wrote:

>> Priced a new car, lately? I could buy a house for what they
>> want fer
>> a new car. I don't even see 'prices to buy', any more. Only
>> 'lease'
>> prices.
> Truck prices were the big surprise to me. You can't buy a basic
> work truck anymore; they are all duded up and over $40k. What
> happened to a good basic work truck; no leather, rubber floor
> mats instead of carpet and AM/FM radio. Joe Sixpack, needs a
> basic truck for $20k; heck, I bet he'd even be willing to
> manually crank windows up and down instead of using a button to
> control a motor that will cost a thousand $$ to repair when it
> fails.

It is amazing that in this age of high gasoline prices there are still
lots of people opting to buy gas guzzling pickups for personal business.
They get them all decked out with all the options and then they don't
want to use them to do the things that trucks are for.

I had a couple pickup trucks over the years and it seems there are
always lots of people who think that guys with trucks have nothing
better to do that to help them move things, pick up stuff for them or
make trips to the dump. I haven't had a truck for years. It is cheaper
and easier to pay for delivery once in a while than to have a truck for
those one or two times a year that you actually need one.

On 2017-11-30, l not -l > wrote:

> Joe Sixpack, needs a basic truck for $20....

Ford is selling their F350 like hot-cakes (OBfood), around here. I've
even seen Freightliner vans and pick-ups, hereabouts. Seems like the
bigger they are, the more ppl want 'em. Lot of 'em towing a trailer
with 1-3 $12K Polaris ATVs on it.

I saw a super-mega-kingsize F350 with about $40K worth of chrome junk
on it. Hadda cost upwards of $80K. 8|

nb

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:20:57 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
> On 2017-11-30, Cindy Hamilton > wrote:
>
> > Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.
>
> Always one exception.
>
> I've owned dozens of cars (2 '74s). NEVER had a timing chain break.
> Never even HEARD of a timing chain breaking. Yer the first.
>
> Priced a new car, lately? I could buy a house for what they want fer
> a new car.

I couldn't. The median house price here is $264,000.

You not wrong about new cars being expensive. We bought
our last two on the used market. I'm driving a 2004 Toyota
Highlander, and he's driving a 2009 Toyota FJ Cruiser.

OTOH, the last car I bought new was a 2004 Toyota Matrix,
which was a lot, lot less car than the Highlander.

> I don't even see 'prices to buy', any more. Only 'lease'
> prices.

I'm pretty sure if you went into the dealership, you could
find out a purchase price.

Cindy Hamilton

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:24:00 PM UTC-5, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
> On 11/30/2017 10:54 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:34:33 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
> >> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
> >>
> >>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
> >>> years ago.
> >>
> >> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
> >> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
> >>
> >>> Cars are much better.
> >>
> >> How so?
> >>
> >> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
> >> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
> >> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
> >> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
> >> timing chains.
> >
> > Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> >
>
> Wow, that's not a very common occurrence - how many miles?
>
> And which engine?

Dude, it was 30 years ago.

I don't even know what engine I have in my current ride. I
just don't care. It's a tool for getting me and my stuff
from point A to point B.

Cindy Hamilton

On 11/30/2017 1:12 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:24:00 PM UTC-5, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
>> On 11/30/2017 10:54 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:34:33 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
>>>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>>>>> years ago.
>>>>
>>>> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
>>>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>>>>
>>>>> Cars are much better.
>>>>
>>>> How so?
>>>>
>>>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
>>>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
>>>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
>>>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
>>>> timing chains.
>>>
>>> Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.
>>>
>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>
>>
>> Wow, that's not a very common occurrence - how many miles?
>>
>> And which engine?
>
> Dude, it was 30 years ago.

Heh Ok, yer not a "car guy" - literally..

> I don't even know what engine I have in my current ride. I
> just don't care. It's a tool for getting me and my stuff
> from point A to point B.
>
> Cindy Hamilton

Ah crap, that removes ALL the romance!

I'll bet you it was the eponymous 350 V8. with higher miles, and either
the chain tensioner and/or guide went bad.

That will over time lead to failure, but first you should have heard
some rattling or buzzing under the hood.

They're some kind of phenolic resin casting and not a forever part.

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 3:19:49 PM UTC-5, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
> On 11/30/2017 1:12 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:24:00 PM UTC-5, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
> >> On 11/30/2017 10:54 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:34:33 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
> >>>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
> >>>>> years ago.
> >>>>
> >>>> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
> >>>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
> >>>>
> >>>>> Cars are much better.
> >>>>
> >>>> How so?
> >>>>
> >>>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
> >>>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
> >>>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
> >>>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
> >>>> timing chains.
> >>>
> >>> Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.
> >>>
> >>> Cindy Hamilton
> >>>
> >>
> >> Wow, that's not a very common occurrence - how many miles?
> >>
> >> And which engine?
> >
> > Dude, it was 30 years ago.
>
> Heh Ok, yer not a "car guy" - literally..
>
> > I don't even know what engine I have in my current ride. I
> > just don't care. It's a tool for getting me and my stuff
> > from point A to point B.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
>
> Ah crap, that removes ALL the romance!

Romance is about people, not about internal-combustion engines.

> I'll bet you it was the eponymous 350 V8. with higher miles, and either
> the chain tensioner and/or guide went bad.
>
> That will over time lead to failure, but first you should have heard
> some rattling or buzzing under the hood.

I take those noises as a sign the radio isn't loud enough.

Cindy Hamilton

On 11/30/2017 1:32 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 3:19:49 PM UTC-5, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
>> On 11/30/2017 1:12 PM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:24:00 PM UTC-5, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
>>>> On 11/30/2017 10:54 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>>>>> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 9:34:33 AM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
>>>>>> On 2017-11-30, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> OTOH, electronics are far superior than what was available not many
>>>>>>> years ago.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You must mean they are "much smaller". I tossed my cell phone acct,
>>>>>> but still use my 'desktop' computer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cars are much better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How so?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I jes found out there is such a thing as 'non-interference' engines
>>>>>> and 'interference' engines and if yer timing belt breakes on an
>>>>>> 'interference' engine, yer hosed. IOW, 'timing belt' (born to break),
>>>>>> versus 'timing chain' (rarely gives trouble). Usta be, all engines had
>>>>>> timing chains.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bah. The timing chain on my '74 Impala broke.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wow, that's not a very common occurrence - how many miles?
>>>>
>>>> And which engine?
>>>
>>> Dude, it was 30 years ago.
>>
>> Heh Ok, yer not a "car guy" - literally..
>>
>>> I don't even know what engine I have in my current ride. I
>>> just don't care. It's a tool for getting me and my stuff
>>> from point A to point B.
>>>
>>> Cindy Hamilton
>>
>> Ah crap, that removes ALL the romance!
>
> Romance is about people, not about internal-combustion engines.

Of for shame, have you never pried the lid on a Jaguar 12 cylinder?

Oh...

>> I'll bet you it was the eponymous 350 V8. with higher miles, and either
>> the chain tensioner and/or guide went bad.
>>
>> That will over time lead to failure, but first you should have heard
>> some rattling or buzzing under the hood.
>
> I take those noises as a sign the radio isn't loud enough.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>

LOL.

That splains the failure then.

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:22:08 PM UTC-6, Gary wrote:
>
> Owning a car is very costly.
> - monthly price of very overpriced car (or initial outlay of
> money)
>
You can't take it with you. How many U-Haul-It's have you seen
towed behind a hearse??
>
> - personal property tax on it each year
>
???????????
>
> - insurance
>
I have full coverage on my vehicle and it's $444 per year
>
> - tags and inspections
>
Tags are once a year at $89 and the 'inspection' consists of
an emissions test for $10.
>
> - repairs (which are never cheap anymore)
> - occasional towing to the shop
>
The last time I had a vehicle towed to a shop was 40 years ago.
>
> - cost of gas!
>
Thankfully I get points for shopping at the grocery store which I
redeem for cents off each gallon of gas. Last month I was able to
get 65¢ off each gallon but this month it will only be about 35¢.
>
> - even the pain in the ass to wash it occasionally.
>
I take my vehicle to a full-service carwash. They can do in 20
minutes what would take me a few hours to accomplish.
>
> Would be stupid of me to put all that out for a vehicle
> that I would drive on average 5-10 miles a week.
>
I'll admit I'm not running the streets as I once did but it's great
have that set of wheels waiting on me whenever I do choose to get
out and burn up some pavement.
>
> Not going to happen...ever.
>
Whatever works for you.

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:32:38 PM UTC-6, Bruce wrote:
>
> Just buy the right kind of bike and you can transport groceries etc.
> with it:
> <http://www.wijnand-hazeleger.nl/images/Bakfiets-Bakfiets%203-big.jpg>
>
>
Hahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 2:10:58 PM UTC-6, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:20:57 PM UTC-5, notbob wrote:
> >
> > I don't even see 'prices to buy', any more. Only 'lease'
> > prices.
>
> I'm pretty sure if you went into the dealership, you could
> find out a purchase price.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
>
>
You can click on any dealership's site and the option is there to
choose lease or purchase.

There are three dealerships within a 45 mile radius of me that I
have visited innumerable times over the last 6 or so months check-
ing their inventory. If they're looking at their internet traffic
I'm sure they're wondering who's IP number that frequent visitor
belongs to.

;-)

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 10:19:49 AM UTC-10, ardiente casa del amor wrote:

>
> Ah crap, that removes ALL the romance!
>
> I'll bet you it was the eponymous 350 V8. with higher miles, and either
> the chain tensioner and/or guide went bad.
>
> That will over time lead to failure, but first you should have heard
> some rattling or buzzing under the hood.
>
> They're some kind of phenolic resin casting and not a forever part.

The cars of the future will be electric, self-driving, robots. There's little romance when interacting with an appliance so live it up while you can. OTOH, the sex trade is going to be booming. My guess is that pay for play gals will be moving to mobile play rooms. As an added bonus, you can get dropped off anywhere you like after a happy ending. Ain't technology grand?!

On 11/30/2017 4:23 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 10:19:49 AM UTC-10, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
>
>>
>> Ah crap, that removes ALL the romance!
>>
>> I'll bet you it was the eponymous 350 V8. with higher miles, and either
>> the chain tensioner and/or guide went bad.
>>
>> That will over time lead to failure, but first you should have heard
>> some rattling or buzzing under the hood.
>>
>> They're some kind of phenolic resin casting and not a forever part.
>
> The cars of the future will be electric, self-driving, robots. There's little romance when interacting with an appliance so live it up while you can. OTOH, the sex trade is going to be booming. My guess is that pay for play gals will be moving to mobile play rooms. As an added bonus, you can get dropped off anywhere you like after a happy ending. Ain't technology grand?!
>

I guess you haven't had the "full monte" until you get rolled by a robot
pimp and parted out in some Indonesian chop shop...

;-(

On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:26:03 PM UTC-10, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
>
> I guess you haven't had the "full monte" until you get rolled by a robot
> pimp and parted out in some Indonesian chop shop...
>
> ;-(

I hadn't thought of that one but robot abduction by the Asian spare body parts crime syndicates could be a real problem. OTOH, robot cars will be saving hundreds of thousands of lives every year - what's a few hundred or so donors disappearing from time to time?

On 11/30/2017 9:57 PM, dsi1 wrote:
> On Thursday, November 30, 2017 at 1:26:03 PM UTC-10, ardiente casa del amor wrote:
>>
>> I guess you haven't had the "full monte" until you get rolled by a robot
>> pimp and parted out in some Indonesian chop shop...
>>
>> ;-(
>
> I hadn't thought of that one but robot abduction by the Asian spare body parts crime syndicates could be a real problem. OTOH, robot cars will be saving hundreds of thousands of lives every year - what's a few hundred or so donors disappearing from time to time?
>

As long as they are young, healthy, disaffected and...uh...boy won't be
long before we get back to:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqUxB2l6N_Q