On 2018-01-30 11:26 AM, wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:53:42 -0500, Dave Smith
> > wrote:
>

>> That article talks about the Roman Catholic concept if Immaculate
>> Conception. Like many other ideas expressed by that church, there is
>> nothing about it in the Bible. It describes her as a virgin. Please
>> excuse me if I don't understand all the mumbo of the Catholic church. I
>> also don't understand how the wine and the bread at communion actually
>> become the blood and body of Christ after a few prayers. Apparently many
>> Catholics don't even know that their church subscribes to that belief.
>
> That latter thought, whether it actually becomes the blood and body or
> is merely representative, is of course the big divide between RC and
> Protestant church beliefs.


It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants now.
A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came along there
were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had problems with.
Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't realize that a lot of
stuff that they were being told was fabricated by the church and had
nothing to do with the Bible. They objected to the concept of Purgatory
and rich people being able to buy their way to heaven by paying indulgences.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:36:05 -0400, wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:11:42 -0700, graham > wrote:
>
>>On 2018-01-30 9:00 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> On 2018-01-30 10:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Never was taught that in 12 years of Catholic school.
>>>> I'm too skeptical to be a good follower of any religion anyway.
>>>
>>> Churches have a way of indoctrinating people into believing a lot of
>>> their rhetoric.* Repeating it over and over helps. While they may say
>>> that reciting prayers remind us of our faith and believes, it also acts
>>> to make us believe it is actually true. The Bible is quite clear about
>>> Mary being a Virgin. Granted, most of us get that from modern English
>>> versions of the Bible, and some will argue that the term meant something
>>> else at the time, like that they weren't yet married but were engaged...
>>>
>>> Another common on is about Eve getting sucked into eating that apple.
>>> There is no apple in the Genesis story.* There is no apple tree. It was
>>> the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
>>
>>What it boils down to is that it is all squit, twaddle and bunkum!
>>And just look at all the conflicts and human misery caused by religion.
>
>It's far harder to name wars that were not about religion

In the 'name of religion' -- with some guy at the top stirring the
peasants up so as to help him win the land or power he wants.
A rallying cry always works 'Make America Great Again.'
Janet US

On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:

> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants now. A
> few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came along there
> were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had problems with.
> Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't realize that a lot of
> stuff that they were being told was fabricated by the church and had
> nothing to do with the Bible. They objected to the concept of Purgatory
> and rich people being able to buy their way to heaven by paying
> indulgences.
>

The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
Use your church envelope with your donation. Every week there was a
money message of some sort.

"Cheri" wrote in message news
"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...

> We talk about having a 'nap' which is a short sleep, but nothing to do
> with 'nappies'.

Same here, I have never called nap time nappy time, just happy time. ;-)

Cheri

==

)

On 1/30/2018 9:59 AM, U.S. Janet B. wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:36:05 -0400, wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:11:42 -0700, graham > wrote:
>>
>>> On 2018-01-30 9:00 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>> On 2018-01-30 10:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>>>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Never was taught that in 12 years of Catholic school.
>>>>> I'm too skeptical to be a good follower of any religion anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Churches have a way of indoctrinating people into believing a lot of
>>>> their rhetoric.Â* Repeating it over and over helps. While they may say
>>>> that reciting prayers remind us of our faith and believes, it also acts
>>>> to make us believe it is actually true. The Bible is quite clear about
>>>> Mary being a Virgin. Granted, most of us get that from modern English
>>>> versions of the Bible, and some will argue that the term meant something
>>>> else at the time, like that they weren't yet married but were engaged...
>>>>
>>>> Another common on is about Eve getting sucked into eating that apple.
>>>> There is no apple in the Genesis story.Â* There is no apple tree. It was
>>>> the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
>>>
>>> What it boils down to is that it is all squit, twaddle and bunkum!
>>> And just look at all the conflicts and human misery caused by religion.
>>
>> It's far harder to name wars that were not about religion
>
> In the 'name of religion' -- with some guy at the top stirring the
> peasants up so as to help him win the land or power he wants.


https://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi...b_1400766.html


In their recently published book, €œEncyclopedia of Wars,€� authors
Charles Phillips and Alan Axelrod document the history of recorded
warfare, and from their list of 1763 wars only 123 have been classified
to involve a religious cause, accounting for less than 7 percent of all
wars and less than 2 percent of all people killed in warfare. While, for
example, it is estimated that approximately one to three million people
were tragically killed in the Crusades, and perhaps 3,000 in the
Inquisition, nearly 35 million soldiers and civilians died in the
senseless, and secular, slaughter of World War 1 alone.

History simply does not support the hypothesis that religion is the
major cause of conflict. The wars of the ancient world were rarely, if
ever, based on religion. These wars were for territorial conquest, to
control borders, secure trade routes, or respond to an internal
challenge to political authority. In fact, the ancient conquerors,
whether Egyptian, Babylonian, Persian, Greek, or Roman, openly welcomed
the religious beliefs of those they conquered, and often added the new
gods to their own pantheon.

Medieval and Renaissance wars were also typically about control and
wealth as city-states vied for power, often with the support, but rarely
instigation, of the Church. And the Mongol Asian rampage, which is
thought to have killed nearly 30 million people, had no religious
component whatsoever.

Most modern wars, including the Napoleonic Campaign, the American
Revolution, the French Revolution, the American Civil War, World War I,
the Russia Revolution, World War II, and the conflicts in Korea and
Vietnam, were not religious in nature or cause. While religious groups
have been specifically targeted (most notably in World War II), to claim
that religion was the cause is to blame the victim and to misunderstand
the perpetrators motives, which were nationalistic and ethnic, not
religious.

Similarly, the vast numbers of genocides (those killed in ethic
cleanses, purges, etc. that are not connected to a declared war) are not
based on religion. Its estimated that over 160 million civilians were
killed in genocides in the 20th century alone, with nearly 100 million
killed by the Communist states of USSR and China. While some claim that
Communism itself is a €œstate religion€� €” because it has an absolute
dictator whose word is law and a €œholy book€� of unchallenged rules €”
such a claim simply equates €œreligion€� with the human desire for power,
conformance, and control, making any distinctions with other human
institutions meaningless.

> A rallying cry always works 'Make America Great Again.'
> Janet US

Seems to be working rather well too, doesn't it?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...ng-tax-reform/

The oil giant Exxon Mobil has announced it will invest an extra $50
billion in the American economy, citing Republicans recently passed tax
reform.

In a blog post, Exxon CEO Darren Woods cited tax reform as well as
€œsound tax and regulatory policies€� as well as a €œpro-growth business
climate€� as major factors behind the investment.

€œThese investments are underpinned by the unique strengths of our
company and enhanced by the historic tax reform recently signed into
law,€� Woods wrote. €œThese positive developments will mean more jobs and
economic expansion across the United States in a myriad of industries.€�

€œThese are quality investments for our shareholders that are made even
better by tax reform,€� Woods continued. €œThese are all possible because
of the resource base developed by our industry along with sound tax and
regulatory policies that create a pro-growth business climate here in
the U.S.€�

advertisement

The move will see Exxon increase its production of shale oil in the
Permian Basin in western Texas and eastern New Mexico, where drilling
costs are relatively low. It will also involve the company improving its
existing infrastructure and constructing new manufacturing sites,
creating as many as 12,000 new jobs.

As a result of last years historic tax reform package, companies have
seen the corporate tax rate reduced from 35 to 21 percent. Dozens of
companies including Apple, Comcast, and J.P Morgan have since announced
additional investment in the U.S. economy, while over a hundred
companies have offered their employees bonuses or salary increases.

According to the International Monetary Fund, the reforms will reform
will help accelerate both U.S. and global economic growth to 3.9 percent
over 2018.

On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants now.
>> A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came along
>> there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had problems
>> with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't realize that a
>> lot of stuff that they were being told was fabricated by the church
>> and had nothing to do with the Bible. They objected to the concept of
>> Purgatory and rich people being able to buy their way to heaven by
>> paying indulgences.
>>
>
> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
> Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week there was a
> money message of some sort.


So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?

On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
> On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>
>>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants
>>> now. A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came
>>> along there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had
>>> problems with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't
>>> realize that a lot of stuff that they were being told was fabricated
>>> by the church and had nothing to do with the Bible. They objected to
>>> the concept of Purgatory and rich people being able to buy their way
>>> to heaven by paying indulgences.
>>>
>>
>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
>> Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week there was a
>> money message of some sort.
>
>
> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
The churches are, in effect, big businesses and should be taxed.

On 1/30/2018 11:27 AM, wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:58:34 -0500, Nancy Young >
> wrote:
>
>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>
>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>
>> Same deal with Chrishna and Buddha, etc. Very popular concept. ion?
>> heh

> Wonder if they ever felt they missed out on some fun?

Really we just have their word for it. See how people laugh at
someone who says they were virgins but wind up pregnant, even
today.

It's actually possible but you have to be pretty darned close
for that to happen. As in technically a virgin. Not pure as
the driven snow.

nancy

On 2018-01-30 9:17 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
> On 1/30/2018 9:11 AM, graham wrote:
>> On 2018-01-30 9:00 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>> On 2018-01-30 10:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Never was taught that in 12 years of Catholic school.
>>>> I'm too skeptical to be a good follower of any religion anyway.
>>>
>>> Churches have a way of indoctrinating people into believing a lot of
>>> their rhetoric.Â* Repeating it over and over helps. While they may say
>>> that reciting prayers remind us of our faith and believes, it also
>>> acts to make us believe it is actually true. The Bible is quite clear
>>> about Mary being a Virgin. Granted, most of us get that from modern
>>> English versions of the Bible, and some will argue that the term
>>> meant something else at the time, like that they weren't yet married
>>> but were engaged...
>>>
>>> Another common on is about Eve getting sucked into eating that apple.
>>> There is no apple in the Genesis story.Â* There is no apple tree. It
>>> was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
>>
>> What it boils down to is that it is all squit, twaddle and bunkum!
>
> Prove that.
>
Look how far we've come since the Enlightenment yet you prefer to
believe the musings of ignorant, Bronze Age goatherds.

"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Cheri" wrote in message news > "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> We talk about having a 'nap' which is a short sleep, but nothing to do
>> with 'nappies'.
>
> Same here, I have never called nap time nappy time, just happy time. ;-)
>
> Cheri
> ==
>
> )


Three kids under the age of four, need I say more? LOL

Cheri

On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:

>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
>>> Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week there was a
>>> money message of some sort.
>>
>>
> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?

They give donation envelopes to kids in first grade and preach to them
about donating. The nuns collected them to be sure you turned it in
every week. That is indoctrination, not teaching charity.

I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country. I got
a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.

The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
knocked up a high school girl.

On 1/30/2018 11:29 AM, graham wrote:
> On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants
>>>> now. A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came
>>>> along there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had
>>>> problems with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't
>>>> realize that a lot of stuff that they were being told was fabricated
>>>> by the church and had nothing to do with the Bible. They objected to
>>>> the concept of Purgatory and rich people being able to buy their way
>>>> to heaven by paying indulgences.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
>>> Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week there was a
>>> money message of some sort.
>>
>>
>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
> The churches are, in effect, big businesses and should be taxed.

The churches are major non-profits and charitable organizations.

Will you also tax the Gates foundation or MDA?

On 1/30/2018 11:35 AM, graham wrote:
> On 2018-01-30 9:17 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 9:11 AM, graham wrote:
>>> On 2018-01-30 9:00 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>> On 2018-01-30 10:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>>>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Never was taught that in 12 years of Catholic school.
>>>>> I'm too skeptical to be a good follower of any religion anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Churches have a way of indoctrinating people into believing a lot of
>>>> their rhetoric.Â* Repeating it over and over helps. While they may
>>>> say that reciting prayers remind us of our faith and believes, it
>>>> also acts to make us believe it is actually true. The Bible is quite
>>>> clear about Mary being a Virgin. Granted, most of us get that from
>>>> modern English versions of the Bible, and some will argue that the
>>>> term meant something else at the time, like that they weren't yet
>>>> married but were engaged...
>>>>
>>>> Another common on is about Eve getting sucked into eating that
>>>> apple. There is no apple in the Genesis story.Â* There is no apple
>>>> tree. It was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
>>>
>>> What it boils down to is that it is all squit, twaddle and bunkum!
>>
>> Prove that.
>>
> Look how far we've come since the Enlightenment yet you prefer to
> believe the musings of ignorant, Bronze Age goatherds.

Those who wish to erase history condemn the rest of us not to learn from it.

I still have some old Motors Repair Manuals even though cars have
advanced quite a bit since then.

Core concepts matter.

On 1/30/2018 11:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> Â*On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>
>>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings
>>>> though. Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week
>>>> there was a money message of some sort.
>>>
>>>
>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>
> They give donation envelopes to kids in first grade and preach to them
> about donating.

Yes, that was my experience in a different faith too.

> The nuns collected them to be sure you turned it in
> every week.Â* That is indoctrination, not teaching charity.

Not completely, it's mainly rote training to ingrain the behavior.

But there was a lot of charitable instruction as well, including those
absurd secular Unicef orange milk cartons for coins we were impressed
into carrying along on Halloween of all times!

https://www.adlibbing.org/wp-content..._Animation.gif

People - it's about candy, quit ruining the fun.

> I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
> not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country.Â* I got
> a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
> age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.

As one should if curious and learning.

> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though.Â* He
> knocked up a high school girl.

Idols with clay feet are common in all faiths, yes.

On 2018-01-30 12:07 PM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
> On 1/30/2018 11:29 AM, graham wrote:
>> On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>>> On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants
>>>>> now. A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came
>>>>> along there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had
>>>>> problems with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't
>>>>> realize that a lot of stuff that they were being told was
>>>>> fabricated by the church and had nothing to do with the Bible. They
>>>>> objected to the concept of Purgatory and rich people being able to
>>>>> buy their way to heaven by paying indulgences.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings
>>>> though. Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week
>>>> there was a money message of some sort.
>>>
>>>
>>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>> The churches are, in effect, big businesses and should be taxed.
>
> The churches are major non-profits and charitable organizations.
>
Just look at all those televangelists and their ilk that fly around in
their own aircraft, drive flashy cars and live in mansions.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:59:20 -0700, U.S. Janet B. >
wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:36:05 -0400, wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:11:42 -0700, graham > wrote:
>>
>>>On 2018-01-30 9:00 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>> On 2018-01-30 10:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>>>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Never was taught that in 12 years of Catholic school.
>>>>> I'm too skeptical to be a good follower of any religion anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Churches have a way of indoctrinating people into believing a lot of
>>>> their rhetoric.* Repeating it over and over helps. While they may say
>>>> that reciting prayers remind us of our faith and believes, it also acts
>>>> to make us believe it is actually true. The Bible is quite clear about
>>>> Mary being a Virgin. Granted, most of us get that from modern English
>>>> versions of the Bible, and some will argue that the term meant something
>>>> else at the time, like that they weren't yet married but were engaged...
>>>>
>>>> Another common on is about Eve getting sucked into eating that apple.
>>>> There is no apple in the Genesis story.* There is no apple tree. It was
>>>> the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
>>>
>>>What it boils down to is that it is all squit, twaddle and bunkum!
>>>And just look at all the conflicts and human misery caused by religion.
>>
>>It's far harder to name wars that were not about religion
>
>In the 'name of religion' -- with some guy at the top stirring the
>peasants up so as to help him win the land or power he wants.
>A rallying cry always works 'Make America Great Again.'
>Janet US

He also does the age old thing of firing up hate, it's chilling.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 08:07:02 -0400, wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:08:45 +1100, Broce >
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 19:56:49 -0400, wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:14:39 +1100, Broce >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 18:41:32 -0400, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 08:47:24 +1100, Broce >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:37:31 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On 2018-01-29 3:49 PM, wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 11:30:36 -0800, "Cheri" >
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Really? This comes from your vast knowledge of childbirth pain I'm sure. LOL
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Cheri
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> lol easy when you know you will never have to prove how easy
>>>>>>>> childbirth is
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Having watched a birth, I don't know why anyone would want to go through
>>>>>>>that even a first time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be solved.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh??? Is the overpopulation all virgin birth?????
>>>>
>>>>Birth in general.
>>>
>>>Then it is not up to 'women' to solve it alone? Could it also be men
>>>should stay zipped up??
>>
>>Of course. But y'all were talking about how painful child birth is and
>>I said it's a shame it doesn't discourage more women from having
>>children (esp. in overpopulated poor countries). That doesn't apply to
>>men.
>
>In those countries abstinence would be the only possible way - that
>should apply to both, not just the woman.

What I said wasn't about man against woman. I don't see everything in
those terms.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 11:29:12 -0700, graham > wrote:

>On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, Caída de la casa wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants
>>>> now. A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came
>>>> along there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had
>>>> problems with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't
>>>> realize that a lot of stuff that they were being told was fabricated
>>>> by the church and had nothing to do with the Bible. They objected to
>>>> the concept of Purgatory and rich people being able to buy their way
>>>> to heaven by paying indulgences.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
>>> Use your church envelope with your donation.* Every week there was a
>>> money message of some sort.
>>
>>
>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>The churches are, in effect, big businesses and should be taxed.

Years ago, when people still wrote Letters to the Editor, I wrote to
our local paper saying churches should be taxed on their funding and
also property taxes like the rest of us. In the end we changed our
phone number, the calls, mostly from RC church goers were terrible.
They didn't want to argue, but to yell, shout and condemn out of hand.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 13:34:56 -0500, Nancy Young >
wrote:

>On 1/30/2018 11:27 AM, wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:58:34 -0500, Nancy Young >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>>
>>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>>
>>> Same deal with Chrishna and Buddha, etc. Very popular concept. ion?
>>> heh
>
>> Wonder if they ever felt they missed out on some fun?
>
>Really we just have their word for it. See how people laugh at
>someone who says they were virgins but wind up pregnant, even
>today.
>
>It's actually possible but you have to be pretty darned close
>for that to happen. As in technically a virgin. Not pure as
>the driven snow.
>
>nancy

Some don't know, sperm are apparently healthy swimmers In my day
all the girls knew you wouldn't get pregnant if you did it standing up

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 13:54:19 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

> On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, Caída de la casa wrote:
>
>>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
>>>> Use your church envelope with your donation.* Every week there was a
>>>> money message of some sort.
>>>
>>>
>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>
>They give donation envelopes to kids in first grade and preach to them
>about donating. The nuns collected them to be sure you turned it in
>every week. That is indoctrination, not teaching charity.
>
>I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
>not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country. I got
>a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
>age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.
>
>The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
>knocked up a high school girl.

Anything happen to him as a result?

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:33:33 -0700, graham > wrote:

>On 2018-01-30 12:07 PM, Caída de la casa wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 11:29 AM, graham wrote:
>>> On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, Caída de la casa wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants
>>>>>> now. A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came
>>>>>> along there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had
>>>>>> problems with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't
>>>>>> realize that a lot of stuff that they were being told was
>>>>>> fabricated by the church and had nothing to do with the Bible. They
>>>>>> objected to the concept of Purgatory and rich people being able to
>>>>>> buy their way to heaven by paying indulgences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings
>>>>> though. Use your church envelope with your donation.* Every week
>>>>> there was a money message of some sort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>>> The churches are, in effect, big businesses and should be taxed.
>>
>> The churches are major non-profits and charitable organizations.
>>
>Just look at all those televangelists and their ilk that fly around in
>their own aircraft, drive flashy cars and live in mansions.

Oooh yes, remember Jim Bakker lol

"Cheri" wrote in message news
"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> "Cheri" wrote in message news > "Ophelia" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> We talk about having a 'nap' which is a short sleep, but nothing to do
>> with 'nappies'.
>
> Same here, I have never called nap time nappy time, just happy time. ;-)
>
> Cheri
> ==
>
> )


Three kids under the age of four, need I say more? LOL

Cheri

==

LOL nope))))

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message ...

On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:

>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
>>> Use your church envelope with your donation. Every week there was a
>>> money message of some sort.
>>
>>
> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?

They give donation envelopes to kids in first grade and preach to them
about donating. The nuns collected them to be sure you turned it in
every week. That is indoctrination, not teaching charity.

I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country. I got
a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.

The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
knocked up a high school girl.

==

We were never asked for donations in school and our priests never messed
with any of the girls or boys.

I hear stories about the way nuns behave too. Not in my school!!!

On 1/30/2018 12:33 PM, graham wrote:
> On 2018-01-30 12:07 PM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>> On 1/30/2018 11:29 AM, graham wrote:
>>> On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants
>>>>>> now. A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came
>>>>>> along there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had
>>>>>> problems with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't
>>>>>> realize that a lot of stuff that they were being told was
>>>>>> fabricated by the church and had nothing to do with the Bible.
>>>>>> They objected to the concept of Purgatory and rich people being
>>>>>> able to buy their way to heaven by paying indulgences.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings
>>>>> though. Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week
>>>>> there was a money message of some sort.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>>> The churches are, in effect, big businesses and should be taxed.
>>
>> The churches are major non-profits and charitable organizations.
>>
> Just look at all those televangelists and their ilk that fly around in
> their own aircraft, drive flashy cars and live in mansions.

No argument there, they're simply con men at heart who have found a
legal way to fleece others.

Their day of reckoning will come.

On 1/30/2018 12:37 PM, wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:59:20 -0700, U.S. Janet B. >
> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:36:05 -0400, wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 09:11:42 -0700, graham > wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2018-01-30 9:00 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>> On 2018-01-30 10:12 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 1/30/2018 9:54 AM, wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Very interesting - so that made her good enough to have baby Jesus
>>>>>>> without actually having sex with a man?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Never was taught that in 12 years of Catholic school.
>>>>>> I'm too skeptical to be a good follower of any religion anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> Churches have a way of indoctrinating people into believing a lot of
>>>>> their rhetoric.Â* Repeating it over and over helps. While they may say
>>>>> that reciting prayers remind us of our faith and believes, it also acts
>>>>> to make us believe it is actually true. The Bible is quite clear about
>>>>> Mary being a Virgin. Granted, most of us get that from modern English
>>>>> versions of the Bible, and some will argue that the term meant something
>>>>> else at the time, like that they weren't yet married but were engaged...
>>>>>
>>>>> Another common on is about Eve getting sucked into eating that apple.
>>>>> There is no apple in the Genesis story.Â* There is no apple tree. It was
>>>>> the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
>>>>
>>>> What it boils down to is that it is all squit, twaddle and bunkum!
>>>> And just look at all the conflicts and human misery caused by religion.
>>>
>>> It's far harder to name wars that were not about religion
>>
>> In the 'name of religion' -- with some guy at the top stirring the
>> peasants up so as to help him win the land or power he wants.
>> A rallying cry always works 'Make America Great Again.'
>> Janet US
>
> He also does the age old thing of firing up hate, it's chilling.
>

Bugger off and mind your own Trudumb, ya partisan shrew!

On 1/30/2018 12:42 PM, wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 11:29:12 -0700, graham > wrote:
>
>> On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>>> On 1/30/2018 10:07 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
>>>> On 1/30/2018 11:56 AM, Dave Smith wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> It is indeed a major difference between Catholics and Protestants
>>>>> now. A few hundred years ago when the Protestant Reformation came
>>>>> along there were a lot of issues that Luther and his followers had
>>>>> problems with. Mass and Bibles were in Latin, so people didn't
>>>>> realize that a lot of stuff that they were being told was fabricated
>>>>> by the church and had nothing to do with the Bible. They objected to
>>>>> the concept of Purgatory and rich people being able to buy their way
>>>>> to heaven by paying indulgences.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings though.
>>>> Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week there was a
>>>> money message of some sort.
>>>
>>>
>>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>> The churches are, in effect, big businesses and should be taxed.
>
> Years ago, when people still wrote Letters to the Editor, I wrote to
> our local paper saying churches should be taxed on their funding and
> also property taxes like the rest of us. In the end we changed our
> phone number, the calls, mostly from RC church goers were terrible.
> They didn't want to argue, but to yell, shout and condemn out of hand.
>

Congratulations shrew, you have learned that spouting off brings
reactions, some you dislike.

Just as they disliked what you said.

Duh.

On 1/30/2018 12:55 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Ed Pawlowski"Â* wrote in message ...
>
> Â*On 2018-01-30 10:29 AM, CaÃ*da de la casa wrote:
>
>>>> The Catholic Church was consistent in some of their teachings
>>>> though. Use your church envelope with your donation.Â* Every week
>>>> there was a money message of some sort.
>>>
>>>
>> So yo figure the Church should be a freebie with no donations?
>
> They give donation envelopes to kids in first grade and preach to them
> about donating.Â* The nuns collected them to be sure you turned it in
> every week.Â* That is indoctrination, not teaching charity.
>
> I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
> not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country.Â* I got
> a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
> age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.
>
> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though.Â* He
> knocked up a high school girl.
>
> ==
>
> We were never asked for donations in school and our priests never messed
> with any of the girls or boys.
>
> I hear stories about the way nuns behave too.Â* Not in my school!!!
>
>
So it all varies by who the humans are and how they're managed.

Can you imagine!

Basic human variations pervade all systems, religious and political.

Oh the surprise at realizing that, eh?

:-)

On 1/30/2018 2:45 PM, wrote:

>> I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
>> not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country. I got
>> a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
>> age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.
>>
>> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
>> knocked up a high school girl.
>
> Anything happen to him as a result?
>
No longer a priest and he married her. No idea if they are still
together. He was a good looking young guy that probably should have
taken a different path in life. She was looking for some sort of
counseling and got something to make her feel batter, I guess.

On 1/30/2018 1:11 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 1/30/2018 2:45 PM, wrote:
>
>>> I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
>>> not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country.Â* I got
>>> a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
>>> age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.
>>>
>>> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though.Â* He
>>> knocked up a high school girl.
>>
>> Anything happen to him as a result?
>>
> No longer a priest and he married her.Â* No idea if they are still
> together.Â* He was a good looking young guy that probably should have
> taken a different path in life. She was looking for some sort of
> counseling and got something to make her feel batter, I guess.

So in some weird way it all worked out, must be "God's will" doncha think?

;-)

On 1/30/2018 2:43 PM, wrote:


>> It's actually possible but you have to be pretty darned close
>> for that to happen. As in technically a virgin. Not pure as
>> the driven snow.
>>
>> nancy
>
> Some don't know, sperm are apparently healthy swimmers In my day
> all the girls knew you wouldn't get pregnant if you did it standing up
>
>

Often times the first baby comes premature. I've known a few married
girls that had the first baby in less than nine months after the
wedding. Medical oddity, I guess.

On 1/30/2018 2:55 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Ed Pawlowski"Â* wrote in message ...

> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though.Â* He
> knocked up a high school girl.
>
> ==
>
> We were never asked for donations in school and our priests never messed
> with any of the girls or boys.
>
> I hear stories about the way nuns behave too.Â* Not in my school!!!

It's almost like they're humans!

nancy

On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 06:40:37 +1100, Broce >
wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 08:07:02 -0400, wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:08:45 +1100, Broce >
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 19:56:49 -0400, wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:14:39 +1100, Broce >
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 18:41:32 -0400, wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 08:47:24 +1100, Broce >
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:37:31 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On 2018-01-29 3:49 PM, wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 11:30:36 -0800, "Cheri" >
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Really? This comes from your vast knowledge of childbirth pain I'm sure. LOL
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheri
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> lol easy when you know you will never have to prove how easy
>>>>>>>>> childbirth is
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Having watched a birth, I don't know why anyone would want to go through
>>>>>>>>that even a first time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be solved.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Oh??? Is the overpopulation all virgin birth?????
>>>>>
>>>>>Birth in general.
>>>>
>>>>Then it is not up to 'women' to solve it alone? Could it also be men
>>>>should stay zipped up??
>>>
>>>Of course. But y'all were talking about how painful child birth is and
>>>I said it's a shame it doesn't discourage more women from having
>>>children (esp. in overpopulated poor countries). That doesn't apply to
>>>men.
>>
>>In those countries abstinence would be the only possible way - that
>>should apply to both, not just the woman.
>
>What I said wasn't about man against woman. I don't see everything in
>those terms.

Then why say "If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be
solved."

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:11:46 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 1/30/2018 2:45 PM, wrote:
>
>>> I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
>>> not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country. I got
>>> a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
>>> age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.
>>>
>>> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
>>> knocked up a high school girl.
>>
>> Anything happen to him as a result?
>>
>No longer a priest and he married her. No idea if they are still
>together. He was a good looking young guy that probably should have
>taken a different path in life. She was looking for some sort of
>counseling and got something to make her feel batter, I guess.

That celibacy idea is their undoing. For too long nobody thought it
strange seeing a priest with kids but had they seen a non-priest of
that age hanging around kids, they would have challenged it. Perfect
place for paedophiles to hide, you don't see twigs in forests.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:37:08 -0500, Nancy Young >
wrote:

>On 1/30/2018 2:55 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Ed Pawlowski"* wrote in message ...
>
>> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though.* He
>> knocked up a high school girl.
>>
>> ==
>>
>> We were never asked for donations in school and our priests never messed
>> with any of the girls or boys.
>>
>> I hear stories about the way nuns behave too.* Not in my school!!!
>
>It's almost like they're humans!
>
>nancy

I didn't feel the nun who regularly 'boxed' my ears was human!

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:44:27 -0400, wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Jan 2018 06:40:37 +1100, Broce >
>wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 08:07:02 -0400, wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 12:08:45 +1100, Broce >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 19:56:49 -0400, wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 10:14:39 +1100, Broce >
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 18:41:32 -0400, wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 08:47:24 +1100, Broce >
>>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Mon, 29 Jan 2018 16:37:31 -0500, Dave Smith
> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Having watched a birth, I don't know why anyone would want to go through
>>>>>>>>>that even a first time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be solved.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Oh??? Is the overpopulation all virgin birth?????
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Birth in general.
>>>>>
>>>>>Then it is not up to 'women' to solve it alone? Could it also be men
>>>>>should stay zipped up??
>>>>
>>>>Of course. But y'all were talking about how painful child birth is and
>>>>I said it's a shame it doesn't discourage more women from having
>>>>children (esp. in overpopulated poor countries). That doesn't apply to
>>>>men.
>>>
>>>In those countries abstinence would be the only possible way - that
>>>should apply to both, not just the woman.
>>
>>What I said wasn't about man against woman. I don't see everything in
>>those terms.
>
>Then why say "If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be
>solved."

Most women want children at some point in their lives. If child birth
was 5 times more painful, many women might not want them anymore.

"Nancy Young" wrote in message ...

On 1/30/2018 2:55 PM, Ophelia wrote:
>
>
> "Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message ...

> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
> knocked up a high school girl.
>
> ==
>
> We were never asked for donations in school and our priests never messed
> with any of the girls or boys.
>
> I hear stories about the way nuns behave too. Not in my school!!!

It's almost like they're humans!

nancy

==

Oh they are all very human I can only speak as I find. I hear all these
awful stories, but nothing like that ever happened to us.

On 1/30/2018 3:47 PM, wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:11:46 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On 1/30/2018 2:45 PM, wrote:
>>
>>>> I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
>>>> not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country. I got
>>>> a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
>>>> age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.
>>>>
>>>> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
>>>> knocked up a high school girl.
>>>
>>> Anything happen to him as a result?
>>>
>> No longer a priest and he married her. No idea if they are still
>> together. He was a good looking young guy that probably should have
>> taken a different path in life. She was looking for some sort of
>> counseling and got something to make her feel batter, I guess.
>
> That celibacy idea is their undoing. For too long nobody thought it
> strange seeing a priest with kids but had they seen a non-priest of
> that age hanging around kids, they would have challenged it. Perfect
> place for paedophiles to hide, you don't see twigs in forests.
>

Took a thousand years to come up with that dumb idea. Would be smart to
change it but that can take another thousand years. Pope has the power
to change it though.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:14:53 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 1/30/2018 3:47 PM, wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 15:11:46 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/30/2018 2:45 PM, wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I grew up in Philadelphia that had a mediocre public school system and
>>>>> not notch Catholic school system, one of the best in the country. I got
>>>>> a good education and my parents donated to pay for it. At a fairly early
>>>>> age though, I questioned some of the religious aspects of it.
>>>>>
>>>>> The priest at our church did not prey on the alter boys though. He
>>>>> knocked up a high school girl.
>>>>
>>>> Anything happen to him as a result?
>>>>
>>> No longer a priest and he married her. No idea if they are still
>>> together. He was a good looking young guy that probably should have
>>> taken a different path in life. She was looking for some sort of
>>> counseling and got something to make her feel batter, I guess.
>>
>> That celibacy idea is their undoing. For too long nobody thought it
>> strange seeing a priest with kids but had they seen a non-priest of
>> that age hanging around kids, they would have challenged it. Perfect
>> place for paedophiles to hide, you don't see twigs in forests.
>>
>
>Took a thousand years to come up with that dumb idea. Would be smart to
>change it but that can take another thousand years. Pope has the power
>to change it though.

I think that in the old days celibacy served as a safe heaven for ***
men. These day, unless you're Sheldon, most people can be openly
***/*******. That might help.

On 1/30/2018 4:01 PM, Broce wrote:

>>>>>>>>> If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be solved.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh??? Is the overpopulation all virgin birth?????
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Birth in general.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Then it is not up to 'women' to solve it alone? Could it also be men
>>>>>> should stay zipped up??
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course. But y'all were talking about how painful child birth is and
>>>>> I said it's a shame it doesn't discourage more women from having
>>>>> children (esp. in overpopulated poor countries). That doesn't apply to
>>>>> men.
>>>>
>>>> In those countries abstinence would be the only possible way - that
>>>> should apply to both, not just the woman.
>>>
>>> What I said wasn't about man against woman. I don't see everything in
>>> those terms.
>>
>> Then why say "If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be
>> solved."
>
> Most women want children at some point in their lives. If child birth
> was 5 times more painful, many women might not want them anymore.
>
For some young girls and guys, it is a status symbol. Real men have
fathered a few babies with different mothers and the girls think it is
OK to have them for them.

A younger woman I know was often asked by some coworkers why she didn't
have a baby yet. They thought it was normal, marriage not needed.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2018 16:21:37 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 1/30/2018 4:01 PM, Broce wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>> If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be solved.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh??? Is the overpopulation all virgin birth?????
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Birth in general.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Then it is not up to 'women' to solve it alone? Could it also be men
>>>>>>> should stay zipped up??
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course. But y'all were talking about how painful child birth is and
>>>>>> I said it's a shame it doesn't discourage more women from having
>>>>>> children (esp. in overpopulated poor countries). That doesn't apply to
>>>>>> men.
>>>>>
>>>>> In those countries abstinence would be the only possible way - that
>>>>> should apply to both, not just the woman.
>>>>
>>>> What I said wasn't about man against woman. I don't see everything in
>>>> those terms.
>>>
>>> Then why say "If more women felt that way, overpopulation could be
>>> solved."
>>
>> Most women want children at some point in their lives. If child birth
>> was 5 times more painful, many women might not want them anymore.
>>
>For some young girls and guys, it is a status symbol. Real men have
>fathered a few babies with different mothers and the girls think it is
>OK to have them for them.
>
>A younger woman I know was often asked by some coworkers why she didn't
>have a baby yet. They thought it was normal, marriage not needed.

It also depends on one's social background. A Dutch football player
fathered two children in 3 months with 2 different women and didn't
blink an eye. "Yeah, so?"