On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 3:22:04 PM UTC-5, GM wrote:
> Cindy Hamilton wrote:
>
> > Those of us who know what those terms mean don't throw them around.
> Having had friends in the German Democrat Republic and the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic and visiting them, I saw 'marxism/socialism/communism" up very close and personally. I know what those terms mean...I didn't visit as a rich moneybags Western tourist, I lived with them in their own homes. All were humiliated that they had to live under such a crummy system, and that included the Party members with nice jobs, homes, and perks like Western travel and consumer goods, etc...
> > I've probably met a few Marxists or Communists living in and around a university
> > town for the past 40-odd years, but the presence of Marxists or Communists
> > in American politics is nil.
> BLM and "Critical Race Theory" have marxist/neo marxist roots...and both are now "large" features of daily American life...
>
> Locally here, there are a number of local elected officials and unions that are heavily pro - marxist...I'd bet there are in the People's Republik of Ann Arbor, too...

Not as many as you'd think. Not anymore. Even the cooperatively owned bar where
the Marxists used to hang out has closed.

What we seem to have a lot of in local government is car-haters. If it weren't for
the effect of tourism on the Ann Arbor economy, I think they'd try to outlaw cars
within the city limits and make everybody take the bus. But they know the University
of Michigan athletic department would stampede the football team down the
streets, Mongo-style, if they attempted it.

Cindy Hamilton

On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 10:40:22 AM UTC-10, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 3:22:04 PM UTC-5, GM wrote:
> > Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> >
> > > Those of us who know what those terms mean don't throw them around.
> > Having had friends in the German Democrat Republic and the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic and visiting them, I saw 'marxism/socialism/communism" up very close and personally. I know what those terms mean...I didn't visit as a rich moneybags Western tourist, I lived with them in their own homes. All were humiliated that they had to live under such a crummy system, and that included the Party members with nice jobs, homes, and perks like Western travel and consumer goods, etc...
> > > I've probably met a few Marxists or Communists living in and around a university
> > > town for the past 40-odd years, but the presence of Marxists or Communists
> > > in American politics is nil.
> > BLM and "Critical Race Theory" have marxist/neo marxist roots...and both are now "large" features of daily American life...
> >
> > Locally here, there are a number of local elected officials and unions that are heavily pro - marxist...I'd bet there are in the People's Republik of Ann Arbor, too...
> Not as many as you'd think. Not anymore. Even the cooperatively owned bar where
> the Marxists used to hang out has closed.
>
> What we seem to have a lot of in local government is car-haters. If it weren't for
> the effect of tourism on the Ann Arbor economy, I think they'd try to outlaw cars
> within the city limits and make everybody take the bus. But they know the University
> of Michigan athletic department would stampede the football team down the
> streets, Mongo-style, if they attempted it.
>
> Cindy Hamilton
My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask for?

On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 3:58:34 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:
> On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 10:40:22 AM UTC-10, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 3:22:04 PM UTC-5, GM wrote:
> > > Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> > >
> > > > Those of us who know what those terms mean don't throw them around.
> > > Having had friends in the German Democrat Republic and the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic and visiting them, I saw 'marxism/socialism/communism" up very close and personally. I know what those terms mean...I didn't visit as a rich moneybags Western tourist, I lived with them in their own homes. All were humiliated that they had to live under such a crummy system, and that included the Party members with nice jobs, homes, and perks like Western travel and consumer goods, etc...
> > > > I've probably met a few Marxists or Communists living in and around a university
> > > > town for the past 40-odd years, but the presence of Marxists or Communists
> > > > in American politics is nil.
> > > BLM and "Critical Race Theory" have marxist/neo marxist roots...and both are now "large" features of daily American life...
> > >
> > > Locally here, there are a number of local elected officials and unions that are heavily pro - marxist...I'd bet there are in the People's Republik of Ann Arbor, too...
> > Not as many as you'd think. Not anymore. Even the cooperatively owned bar where
> > the Marxists used to hang out has closed.
> >
> > What we seem to have a lot of in local government is car-haters. If it weren't for
> > the effect of tourism on the Ann Arbor economy, I think they'd try to outlaw cars
> > within the city limits and make everybody take the bus. But they know the University
> > of Michigan athletic department would stampede the football team down the
> > streets, Mongo-style, if they attempted it.
> >
> > Cindy Hamilton
> My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask for?

No, of course not. All of my bosses have respected and not abused me. Even when I
was a secretary, half a lifetime ago.

Cindy Hamilton

On 2021-01-28 4:25 p.m., Cindy Hamilton wrote:
> On Thursday, January 28, 2021 at 3:58:34 PM UTC-5, dsi1 wrote:

>> My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need
>> them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and
>> have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower
>> classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife
>> likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so
>> often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should
>> go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers
>> just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask
>> for?
>
> No, of course not. All of my bosses have respected and not abused
> me. Even when I was a secretary, half a lifetime ago.
>

There is a butcher/deli about two miles down the road from us and the
owner has been nicknamed the Meat Nazi. A lot of people I know refuse to
shop there because the guy is so abusive to his staff. There were three
people working there one day when I went it. The boss came out of the
back room started yelling at them, each one in turn. The prick was
giving his staff shit in front of each other and in front of a customer.
Apparently he has done the same in front of other people. It is a
shame because the store is handy, has good meats and other other products.

I was lucky when in my job with the provincial government. I had one
boss who as a bit of a dick but he was easy to read. He was always
negative. Whenever we made suggestions he would opt for the opposite. He
was such a dolt that when there was something we wanted we would suggest
the opposite.

On 1/28/2021 7:04 PM, Dave Smith wrote:

>
> There is a butcher/deli about two miles down the road from us and the
> owner has been nicknamed the Meat Nazi. A lot of people I know refuse to
> shop there because the guy is so abusive to his staff. There were three
> people working there one day when I went it. The boss came out of the
> back room started yelling at them, each one in turn. The prick was
> giving his staff shit in front of each other and in front of a customer.
> Â*Apparently he has done the same in front of other people. It is a
> shame because the store is handy, has good meats and other other products.

In a small business that could have been stopped easily. Wait for the
right opportunity when he is yelling at them with customers present.
Then all three walk out. Today you can record in on a cell phone and
make a case if needed to collect benefits.

On 2021-01-28 10:11 p.m., Ed Pawlowski wrote:
> On 1/28/2021 7:04 PM, Dave Smith wrote:
>
>>
>> There is a butcher/deli about two miles down the road from us and the
>> owner has been nicknamed the Meat Nazi. A lot of people I know refuse
>> to shop there because the guy is so abusive to his staff. There were
>> three people working there one day when I went it. The boss came out
>> of the back room started yelling at them, each one in turn. The prick
>> was giving his staff shit in front of each other and in front of a
>> customer. Â*Â*Apparently he has done the same in front of other people.
>> It is a shame because the store is handy, has good meats and other
>> other products.
>
> In a small business that could have been stopped easily.Â* Wait for the
> right opportunity when he is yelling at them with customers present.
> Then all three walk out.Â* Today you can record in on a cell phone and
> make a case if needed to collect benefits.
>

I guess that would be up to the employees. It seems pretty obvious that
the guy has lost a lot of business. It is not a very big shop and it has
less than a dozen parking spaces.... one for the owner's truck.They
spaces were often all taken. These days there never seems to be more
than three customer vehicles, and it is often empty. I wasn't surprised
to hear so many people talking about the way he treats his staff, but I
was surprised to hear how many of his former regular customers refuse to
shop there anymore because of it.

On 1/28/2021 3:58 PM, dsi1 wrote:

> My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask for?
>

I've worked at companies that had unions. If it was 1930 there is a
chance I'd be a union organizer as they were needed and helped the
workers.

Fast Forward to the 1960. The unions did not give a crap about the
members but took good care of the union bosses. It became all about the
dues and money contributed to the union run health and welfare benefits.

I've watch workers walking the picked line in the rain and cold while
the union boss pulls up in his Caddy to give them encouragement.
Negotiations? Yeah, that was done at lunch and settled before the shop
negotiating committee was selected and the charade started.

Workers should be respected and not abused but a union is not going to
fix that. The workers could if they really wanted to. And pay no dues.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:05:04 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 1/28/2021 3:58 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>
>> My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask for?
>>
>I've worked at companies that had unions. If it was 1930 there is a
>chance I'd be a union organizer as they were needed and helped the
>workers.
>
>Fast Forward to the 1960. The unions did not give a crap about the
>members but took good care of the union bosses. It became all about the
>dues and money contributed to the union run health and welfare benefits.
>
>I've watch workers walking the picked line in the rain and cold while
>the union boss pulls up in his Caddy to give them encouragement.
>Negotiations? Yeah, that was done at lunch and settled before the shop
>negotiating committee was selected and the charade started.
>
>Workers should be respected and not abused but a union is not going to
>fix that. The workers could if they really wanted to. And pay no dues.

Without unions, we go back to Dickensian times, to unbridled,
capitalism, to barbarism.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:10:42 +1100, Master Bruce wrote:

> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:05:04 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>>On 1/28/2021 3:58 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>>
>>> My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask for?
>>>
>>I've worked at companies that had unions. If it was 1930 there is a
>>chance I'd be a union organizer as they were needed and helped the
>>workers.
>>
>>Fast Forward to the 1960. The unions did not give a crap about the
>>members but took good care of the union bosses. It became all about the
>>dues and money contributed to the union run health and welfare benefits.
>>
>>I've watch workers walking the picked line in the rain and cold while
>>the union boss pulls up in his Caddy to give them encouragement.
>>Negotiations? Yeah, that was done at lunch and settled before the shop
>>negotiating committee was selected and the charade started.
>>
>>Workers should be respected and not abused but a union is not going to
>>fix that. The workers could if they really wanted to. And pay no dues.
>
> Without unions, we go back to Dickensian times, to unbridled,
> capitalism, to barbarism.

Exactly!!
I'm opposed to the NEED for unions!

Graham wrote:

> I'm opposed to the NEED for unions!


In many communist countries *all* workers were *required* to join unions..."interesting", eh...???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_G...ion_Federation


"The Free German Trade Union Federation (German: Freier Deutsche Gewerkschaftsbund or FDGB), was the sole national trade union centre of the German Democratic Republic (GDR or East Germany) which existed from 1946 t0 1990...

....Officially, membership in the FDGB was voluntary, but unofficially it was hardly possible to develop a career without joining. In 1986, 98% of all workers and employees were organized in the FDGB, which had 9.6 million members. This meant that it was nominally one of the worlds largest trade unions..."


--
Best
Greg

On 2021-01-29 12:00 a.m., Graham wrote:
> On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 14:10:42 +1100, Master Bruce wrote:
>

>>> Workers should be respected and not abused but a union is not going to
>>> fix that. The workers could if they really wanted to. And pay no dues.
>>
>> Without unions, we go back to Dickensian times, to unbridled,
>> capitalism, to barbarism.
>
> Exactly!!
> I'm opposed to the NEED for unions!

I think unions here were in their hey days in the 70s and they still had
to push. I had a summer in an alloy smelting plant and that was a very
hot, dangerous place to work. Most of my bosses there were pretty good.
It wasn't just because of my father's position in another department
because they were pretty good to everyone.
One foreman was an asshole. He wanted me to go down into as tunnel and
shovel up all the material that had fallen off the conveyor belt. It was
a dirty job, but I was summer help and on the cleanup crew in that
furnace room. When the conveyor started up I climbed out. The foreman
came back and told me to go back down. It was against the safety rules.
He insisted. I refused to be down there with the belt running. Bear in
mind the reason there was a mess down there was because the chunks of
ore were falling off the belt.

He had to give me a break on that, but he tried for revenge by giving me
every dirty job there was. Then all of a sudden, he was very friendly
and giving me all the easy jobs. We even spent the best part of a shift
driving around the plant picking up various things. I learned the next
day that he had been transferred to my father's department. I made sure
Dad knew what an ass the guy had been.

On 1/29/2021 10:05 AM, Dave Smith wrote:

> One foreman was an asshole.Â* He wanted me to go down into as tunnel and
> shovel up all the material that had fallen off the conveyor belt. It was
> a dirty job, but I was summer help and on the cleanup crew in that
> furnace room.Â* When the conveyor started up I climbed out.Â* The foreman
> came back and told me to go back down. It was against the safety rules.
> He insisted. I refused to be down there with the belt running. Bear in
> mind the reason there was a mess down there was because the chunks of
> ore were falling off the belt.

People complain about government regulations but people like that are
why OSHA exists.

On 1/28/2021 10:10 PM, Master Bruce wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:05:04 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>
>> On 1/28/2021 3:58 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>>
>>> My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask for?
>>>
>> I've worked at companies that had unions. If it was 1930 there is a
>> chance I'd be a union organizer as they were needed and helped the
>> workers.
>>
>> Fast Forward to the 1960. The unions did not give a crap about the
>> members but took good care of the union bosses. It became all about the
>> dues and money contributed to the union run health and welfare benefits.
>>
>> I've watch workers walking the picked line in the rain and cold while
>> the union boss pulls up in his Caddy to give them encouragement.
>> Negotiations? Yeah, that was done at lunch and settled before the shop
>> negotiating committee was selected and the charade started.
>>
>> Workers should be respected and not abused but a union is not going to
>> fix that. The workers could if they really wanted to. And pay no dues.
>
> Without unions, we go back to Dickensian times, to unbridled,
> capitalism, to barbarism.
>

There will always be a few but. . .
Today the worker has plenty of tools that did not exist years ago.
Often people know the working conditions before every applying for a
job. Companies have to offer decent benefits to get the best workers
today.

I worked for one company that liked the fact that the shop was union.
They did not have to do anything that was not in the contract. The best
workers go the same treatment as the marginal workers. They did pay
more than the contract though, if not, the company next door paid more
and took away the best workers.

People can still organize without paying dues to a bunch of thugs at
union headquarters.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2021 09:48:52 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:

>On 1/28/2021 10:10 PM, Master Bruce wrote:
>> On Thu, 28 Jan 2021 22:05:04 -0500, Ed Pawlowski > wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/28/2021 3:58 PM, dsi1 wrote:
>>>
>>>> My guess is that we're gonna need unions more than ever. We need them more because of the every widening rift between the haves and have-not. The greater the divide between the rich and the lower classes, the more you need for instruments of equalization. My wife likes to complain about her boss to me when she gets home every so often. Some of it is pretty egregious. I always say that she should go to her union - that's what they're around for. Mostly, workers just want to be respected, and not abused. Is that too much to ask for?
>>>>
>>> I've worked at companies that had unions. If it was 1930 there is a
>>> chance I'd be a union organizer as they were needed and helped the
>>> workers.
>>>
>>> Fast Forward to the 1960. The unions did not give a crap about the
>>> members but took good care of the union bosses. It became all about the
>>> dues and money contributed to the union run health and welfare benefits.
>>>
>>> I've watch workers walking the picked line in the rain and cold while
>>> the union boss pulls up in his Caddy to give them encouragement.
>>> Negotiations? Yeah, that was done at lunch and settled before the shop
>>> negotiating committee was selected and the charade started.
>>>
>>> Workers should be respected and not abused but a union is not going to
>>> fix that. The workers could if they really wanted to. And pay no dues.
>>
>> Without unions, we go back to Dickensian times, to unbridled,
>> capitalism, to barbarism.
>>
>
>There will always be a few but. . .
>Today the worker has plenty of tools that did not exist years ago.
>Often people know the working conditions before every applying for a
>job. Companies have to offer decent benefits to get the best workers
>today.
>
>I worked for one company that liked the fact that the shop was union.
>They did not have to do anything that was not in the contract. The best
>workers go the same treatment as the marginal workers. They did pay
>more than the contract though, if not, the company next door paid more
>and took away the best workers.
>
>People can still organize without paying dues to a bunch of thugs at
>union headquarters.

Some cops are bad, but that's no reason to do away with the police.
Same with unions IMO. The best tool to make sure workers are treated
decently is a union.