I've been lurking around a while, posted a few things, and finally
decided to jump into the fray with both feet (and mouth wide open for
the planting thereof) and see if I could start a "food fight".

Lots of turkeys are being gobbled this time of the year and a LOT....did
I say that loud enough....LOT!!! of noise is being made about:

FOOD SAFETY!!!!!!

I question the emphasis put on this issue.

I was born in California, raised all over (Navy brat) but my roots are
in the South. Many of my "food" memories recall the major meal being at
noontime (dinner), after which a clean tablecloth (or sheet) was thrown
over the leftovers and they were left until suppertime.

Pork, chicken, deviled eggs, ...whatever, were left at room temperature
(which without AC was 80-90 degrees in the summer) for 4 to 6 hours.
This is what was eaten for supper.

And no one (as in "very rare occurrence") got sick.



Why not?



Were the "Old Folks" made of stouter stuff?



Have we pasteurized ourselves to death?



Is "mass production the culprit?



Or is it media hype?



I know food safety is important. What I'm questioning is if it is a
bigger issue now than, say....100 years ago. And I'm speaking of
pathological contamination, not chemical. (Which IS a bigger problem)



Looking forward to the fracas!



Bubba





--
You wanna measure, or you wanna cook?

--
You wanna measure, or you wanna cook?

>Pork, chicken, deviled eggs, ...whatever, were left at room temperature
>(which without AC was 80-90 degrees in the summer) for 4 to 6 hours.
>This is what was eaten for supper.
>
>And no one (as in "very rare occurrence") got sick.
>
>Why not?

You might have left them overnight, as well. A day out of the fridge is not
enough time for freshly cooked meat to catch something and go putrid.

Neil

jmcquown wrote:

The only thing I suppose I'd worry about is mayonnaise
> due to the infusion of oil with eggs which may go rancid if left sitting out
> in 90F heat.

This is the only worry from mayo. And it isn't a safety issue, merely
a quality concern for the flavor. Rancidity isn't about potential harm
to you, merely that it won't smell and taste good.

Pastorio

Far as I can tell, someone wrote:
>Or is it media hype?

I own a restaurant, and I have had to take a "Safe-Serve" course. There
has to be a certified food handler on premise whenever we're open.

I think that a lot of the stuff makes sense, as there are restaurants
where food safety would not otherwise exist without inspectors looking
over your shoulder. But it's excessive.

For example, soups must be cooled from serving temp to less than 42
degrees in two hours or less. They want you to use ice paddles and/or
pour it into trays, which are placed in larger trays filled with ice
water.

There are loads of procedural charts to learn. They have an entire page
on how to wash your hands. Clean hands are important, to be sure, but
they expect everyone to clean under your fingernails and then up to your
elbows, scrubbing for 20 seconds, every time you wash your hands.

I'd love to think that everyone who handles my food has very clean hands
and/or gloves on. It' s kind of silly to think that anyone really
follows the rules though. No one on the road obeys the speed limits,
and no one in a restaurant wahses their hands correctly either.

Here's a link to one of the courses.

http://www.nraef.org/pdf_files/SSFCSB3e%20Ch%2004.pdf

Bob (this one) wrote:
> jmcquown wrote:
>
> The only thing I suppose I'd worry about is mayonnaise
>> due to the infusion of oil with eggs which may go rancid if left
>> sitting out in 90F heat.
>
> This is the only worry from mayo. And it isn't a safety issue, merely
> a quality concern for the flavor. Rancidity isn't about potential harm
> to you, merely that it won't smell and taste good.
>
> Pastorio

Exactly. And IMO half of what tastes good is in what smells good.

Jill

I've gotten food poisoning from eating at NYC restaurants several
times. No, they weren't dives either.

Unpasturized products are dangerous to babies and older people, who are
more susceptible. Remember the Odwalla juice problem a few years ago?
We do pasturize for a reason.

I think now that meats/poultry are raised less locally on a larger
scale, there is more danger of food contamination. We ship lots of
food products long distances now too.

Also, I know in NY there are some shady dealings that go on with some
stores sometimes with expiration dates being altered. And if you
aren't one to check expiration dates, there are stores that don't
routinely remove older products.

It does seem to me that people can get over-obsessed. Like with the
anti-bacterial cleaning product craze. Bacteria becomes more resistant
with those products. The truth is in most instances hot water and soap
are preferable. Common sense with where you place your raw and cooked
meats is a much better answer, to my mind.

I think the prevalence of pre-prepared foods makes it easier for people
to become distanced from what really is safe and not safe to eat. I
remember watching a show of one of those historical re-enactments of a
medieval village. The group pit roasted some type of animal, and they
all got food poisoning because it was too raw. It just struck me that
if it was so raw they all got sick, they couldn't tell that by looking
at the meat?

My dad had a garden in the backyard when we were growing up. We had
mostly tomatoes and zucchini, etc. We kids thought it was gross to eat
food that had been in the dirt! ha ha. I can't believe that when I
think about it now. I guess the grocery store produce section looked
so clean and neat, we didn't think about where *that* came from.

Marge wrote:

> I've gotten food poisoning from eating at NYC restaurants several
> times. No, they weren't dives either.

It's no fun to get food poisoning. I have never been as sick as the time I
caught a dose of it and puked by guts out for 5 hours. That's an experience
you have to go through to understand how horrible it is.

> Also, I know in NY there are some shady dealings that go on with some
> stores sometimes with expiration dates being altered. And if you
> aren't one to check expiration dates, there are stores that don't
> routinely remove older products.

I am not sure if that is as much a danger as unhygienic practices. While
the nasty germs are in the are they thrive in certain environments and
cross contamination becomes more of a risk.

> I think the prevalence of pre-prepared foods makes it easier for people
> to become distanced from what really is safe and not safe to eat. I
> remember watching a show of one of those historical re-enactments of a
> medieval village. The group pit roasted some type of animal, and they all
> got food poisoning because it was too raw. It just struck me that if it
> was so raw they all got sick, they couldn't tell that by looking at the
> meat?
>

You would think that they could have taken a look at the meat and known it
was undercooked, but but just being undercooked is not a guarantee of
problems. Lots of people eat beef so rare that it is basically uncooked.
Sushi is raw, and it does not lead to food poisoning if they follow safety
guidelines.

> My dad had a garden in the backyard when we were growing up. We had
> mostly tomatoes and zucchini, etc. We kids thought it was gross to eat
> food that had been in the dirt! ha ha. I can't believe that when I think
> about it now. I guess the grocery store produce section looked so clean
> and neat, we didn't think about where *that* came from.

I know a guy who will only eat mushrooms if they have been peeled. He knows
that they are grown in manure and is convinced that simply washing them is
not adequate.

Being removed from the source does cause misconceptions. A lot of people
consider hunting to be exceptionally cruel to animals. When I think about
a wild animal meeting a quick death after a life of freedom (along with
disease, predation and possible starvation) it doesn't look so bad compared
to a life in captivity. When you see truck loads of caged chickens
traveling down the highway it doesn't do much for your appreciation of
chicken dishes.

Marge wrote:
> I've gotten food poisoning from eating at NYC restaurants several
> times. No, they weren't dives either.
>
> Unpasturized products are dangerous to babies and older people, who
> are more susceptible. Remember the Odwalla juice problem a few years
> ago? We do pasturize for a reason.
>
Sorry, I have no idea what 'Odwalla' juice is. I understand pasturization.
I understand restaurants should be held accountable for food safety and
handling. They are catering to and serving many.

But home cooking is just... home cooking. Maybe you pick what you grow and
cook what you grow and then eat. Sometimes the food, yes, even chicken or
pork or fish, gets left on the table or the counter for a while. Maybe you
are careless, thoughtless, or simply don't have the means to store it. Or
maybe you realize you aren't gonna die if you reheat whatever that was and
eat it later.

My dad used to wring chickens' necks in the back yard and sit on the porch
and pluck off the feathers before his mom put the bird in a pot with water
for soup or in a roasting pan. He picked and washed dandylion greens to
eat. Potatoes straight out of the ground, washed but probably still a bit
grubby. Pole beans rinsed in a bucket and snapped on the porch. Hmmm.
Growing up during the American Depression, and listening to those who did,
sure does teach one something

Jill

Dave Smith wrote:

> I know a guy who will only eat mushrooms if they have been peeled. He knows
> that they are grown in manure and is convinced that simply washing them is
> not adequate.

Drives me up a wall, people continue to just brush them off. No.
Give them the old washeroonie, if you don't mind. It's already
been proven that they only soak up a miniscule amount of water.
Never seemed to hurt anything when I do it.

nancy

>"jmcquown" writes:
>
>Marge wrote:
>> I've gotten food poisoning from eating at NYC restaurants several
>> times. No, they weren't dives either.
>>
>> Unpasturized products are dangerous to babies and older people, who
>> are more susceptible. Remember the Odwalla juice problem a few years
>> ago? We do pasturize for a reason.
>>
>Sorry, I have no idea what 'Odwalla' juice is. I understand pasturization.
>I understand restaurants should be held accountable for food safety and
>handling. They are catering to and serving many.
>
>But home cooking is just... home cooking. Maybe you pick what you grow and
>cook what you grow and then eat. Sometimes the food, yes, even chicken or
>pork or fish, gets left on the table or the counter for a while. Maybe you
>are careless, thoughtless, or simply don't have the means to store it. Or
>maybe you realize you aren't gonna die if you reheat whatever that was and
>eat it later.
>
>My dad used to wring chickens' necks in the back yard and sit on the porch
>and pluck off the feathers before his mom put the bird in a pot with water
>for soup or in a roasting pan. He picked and washed dandylion greens to
>eat. Potatoes straight out of the ground, washed but probably still a bit
>grubby. Pole beans rinsed in a bucket and snapped on the porch. Hmmm.
>Growing up during the American Depression, and listening to those who did,
sure does teach one something

Yeah, hopefully the meaning of the word "exaggeration"... did he walk to school
five miles both ways barefooted... and uphill both directions. LOL


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

>Nancy Young:
>
>Dave Smith wrote:
>
>> I know a guy who will only eat mushrooms if they have been peeled. He knows
>> that they are grown in manure and is convinced that simply washing them is
>> not adequate.
>
>Drives me up a wall, people continue to just brush them off. No.
>Give them the old washeroonie, if you don't mind.

Worried about a little horse shit... maybe yoose shouldn't be doing newsgroups!
hehe

Actually horse manure is simply digested grass, and it is sterilized by the
heat generated from composting for a month... cleaner than that salad you just
ate.



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

One time on Usenet, Bubba > said:

<snip>

> I know food safety is important. What I'm questioning is if it is a
> bigger issue now than, say....100 years ago. And I'm speaking of
> pathological contamination, not chemical. (Which IS a bigger problem)

While food poisoning can be a major health threat (think E-Coli),
IIRC, more often it's diarrhea and/or nausea which can take place
many hours after the meal is ingested. I suspect that people *did*
get sick, but chalked it up to "stomach flu" or something similar...


--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"I rule you!" - Travis of the Cosmos, ATHF

PENMART01 wrote:
>> "jmcquown" writes:
>>
>> Marge wrote:
>>> I've gotten food poisoning from eating at NYC restaurants several
>>> times. No, they weren't dives either.
>>>
>>> Unpasturized products are dangerous to babies and older people, who
>>> are more susceptible. Remember the Odwalla juice problem a few
>>> years
>>> ago? We do pasturize for a reason.
>>>
>> Sorry, I have no idea what 'Odwalla' juice is. I understand
>> pasturization.
>> I understand restaurants should be held accountable for food safety
>> and handling. They are catering to and serving many.
>>
>> But home cooking is just... home cooking. Maybe you pick what you
>> grow and cook what you grow and then eat. Sometimes the food, yes,
>> even chicken or pork or fish, gets left on the table or the counter
>> for a while. Maybe you are careless, thoughtless, or simply don't
>> have the means to store it. Or maybe you realize you aren't gonna
>> die if you reheat whatever that was and eat it later.
>>
>> My dad used to wring chickens' necks in the back yard and sit on the
>> porch and pluck off the feathers before his mom put the bird in a
>> pot with water for soup or in a roasting pan. He picked and washed
>> dandylion greens to
>> eat. Potatoes straight out of the ground, washed but probably still
>> a bit grubby. Pole beans rinsed in a bucket and snapped on the
>> porch. Hmmm. Growing up during the American Depression, and
>> listening to those who did,
> sure does teach one something
>
> Yeah, hopefully the meaning of the word "exaggeration"... did he walk
> to school five miles both ways barefooted... and uphill both
> directions. LOL
>
No exaggeration here - he carried a hot baked potato to keep his hands warm
and ate it cold for lunch

BTW, that old school house is still standing and it WAS uphill, if only
slightly. Heheh.

Jill

jmcquown wrote:

> My dad used to wring chickens' necks in the back yard and sit on the porch
> and pluck off the feathers before his mom put the bird in a pot with water
> for soup or in a roasting pan. He picked and washed dandylion greens to
> eat. Potatoes straight out of the ground, washed but probably still a bit
> grubby. Pole beans rinsed in a bucket and snapped on the porch. Hmmm.
> Growing up during the American Depression, and listening to those who did,
> sure does teach one something

My parent's generation all grew up during the depression. My father was a farm
boy of sorts. He grew up on a rabbit ranch. They called it a "ranch" but it was
just a large property on the edge of a small town. They always grew their own
vegetables and canned their own stuff. They also raised enough chickens for
eggs and meat.

When I was a kid we always had a large vegetable garden. It was a lot of work,
but my parents had four boys to do the work. During the summer we would be
sent out to the garden just before dinner to pick whatever was in season. I
always appreciated the great taste of freshly picked fruit and vegetables. We
used to grow enough beans in that garden to keep up going for the winter. My
mother would blanch them and freeze them within an hour of picking, and they
were way better than the frozen beans you can buy even now. It is rare for me
to find "fresh" beans at the supermarket that even come close to what we used
to grow. Having all that fresh produce was a bonus for the ever present pet
rabbit.

"jmcquown" > wrote in
:

> Sorry, I have no idea what 'Odwalla' juice is. I understand
> pasturization. I understand restaurants should be held accountable
for
> food safety and handling. They are catering to and serving many.
>


When you go into a restaurant, you can ask to see the kitchen. Of
course the owner/establishment can refuse the request. IIRC, there's
some half-a$$ed law in the books about this.

Andy

George Shirley > wrote in news:VwIrd.17088
:

> According to my Dad, born in 1911, it was ten miles both ways, uphill
> and in the wind driven snow, barefoot and with no coat.

LOL. Like George Burns said, "that's why we never went to school!"

Andy

>that's why I never went to school!
>
>Andy <STRONG>LIAR</STRONG>



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

A lot of parents bought the Odwalla juices because they thought the
unpasturized juice would be more natural and therefore more healthy for
their kids. So, I think it's true that people tend to be very unaware
of what constitutes food safety.

Organic products are great. They do need to be washed and aren't
magically safe because they're organic.

When you think about it logically, how weird is it that it would be a
national craze for us to stop eating carbohydrates, but stock up on
pork rinds?

Marge wrote:

> Organic products are great. They do need to be washed and aren't
> magically safe because they're organic.

One of the things about organic produce is the avoidance of chemical
fertilizers. They prefer to use organic stuff, compost and manure. While
properly composted manure is good stuff, many of them do not compost it
properly. That can result in all sorts of nasty things getting into your
food, like e coli.

Back in the 70s when health foods were starting to become more popular and
my wacko sister in law was a health food fanatic she was pushing herbal
teas. She pointed out all the nasty problems with caffeine and tannin in
the regular teas. I suggested to her that at least we knew what we were
getting in tea, but the guys pushing the herbal teas were just gathering up
their herbs and making up their tea concoctions without much research into
the compounds they might produced. A few months after that there was an
news report of a woman who had been drinking vast quantities of on of the
varieties of herbal tea from a well known company. She overdosed on
atropine.

> When you think about it logically, how weird is it that it would be a
> national craze for us to stop eating carbohydrates, but stock up on
> pork rinds?

The low carb diet seems to work well for some people. My wife has been on
low carbs for years and does very well by it. I wonder about the amount of
fat in her diet but she is in fine shape, keeps her weight down and has no
cholesterol problem.

Marge wrote:

> Organic products are great. They do need to be washed and aren't
> magically safe because they're organic.

One of the things about organic produce is the avoidance of chemical
fertilizers. They prefer to use organic stuff, compost and manure. While
properly composted manure is good stuff, many of them do not compost it
properly. That can result in all sorts of nasty things getting into your
food, like e coli.

Back in the 70s when health foods were starting to become more popular and
my wacko sister in law was a health food fanatic she was pushing herbal
teas. She pointed out all the nasty problems with caffeine and tannin in
the regular teas. I suggested to her that at least we knew what we were
getting in tea, but the guys pushing the herbal teas were just gathering up
their herbs and making up their tea concoctions without much research into
the compounds they might produced. A few months after that there was an
news report of a woman who had been drinking vast quantities of on of the
varieties of herbal tea from a well known company. She overdosed on
atropine.

> When you think about it logically, how weird is it that it would be a
> national craze for us to stop eating carbohydrates, but stock up on
> pork rinds?

The low carb diet seems to work well for some people. My wife has been on
low carbs for years and does very well by it. I wonder about the amount of
fat in her diet but she is in fine shape, keeps her weight down and has no
cholesterol problem.