Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
that I would like to try, but all they had at the
grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
could just use milk instead, but is there any
other common ingredient that I might add to this
to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
ingredient will be 2% milk.

Thank you, Michael

Michael wrote:

> but is there any other common ingredient that I might add to this to
> bring it closer to buttermilk? My base ingredient will be 2% milk.

1 cup milk and one tablespoon vinegar.

Becca

Michael wrote:

> but is there any other common ingredient that I might add to this to
> bring it closer to buttermilk? My base ingredient will be 2% milk.

1 cup milk and one tablespoon vinegar.

Becca

"Michael" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael
>
There really is no substitute for buttermilk although you can use various
other sour dairy products. Why not get the can of dried buttermilk and use
it as you need buttermilk? The dried buttermilk stores for a year or two.
This is a must have pantry product.
See http://www.sacofoods.com/culteredbuttermilkblend.html
Janet

In article >,
Becca > wrote:

> 1 cup milk and one tablespoon vinegar.

That's for soured milk, which is not the same as buttermilk. As the King
Arthur Flour Baker's Companion notes, buttermilk is "thinner than sour
cream and thicker than sour milk." The soured milk substitute above will
give you the desired reaction with baking soda, if that's the goal, but
it won't provide the same mouthfeel.

--
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In article >,
Becca > wrote:

> 1 cup milk and one tablespoon vinegar.

That's for soured milk, which is not the same as buttermilk. As the King
Arthur Flour Baker's Companion notes, buttermilk is "thinner than sour
cream and thicker than sour milk." The soured milk substitute above will
give you the desired reaction with baking soda, if that's the goal, but
it won't provide the same mouthfeel.

--
to respond (OT only), change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"

<http://www.thecoffeefaq.com/>

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Becca > wrote:
>
>> 1 cup milk and one tablespoon vinegar.
>
> That's for soured milk, which is not the same as buttermilk. As the King
> Arthur Flour Baker's Companion notes, buttermilk is "thinner than sour
> cream and thicker than sour milk." The soured milk substitute above will
> give you the desired reaction with baking soda, if that's the goal, but
> it won't provide the same mouthfeel.
>
> --
> to respond (OT only), change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"
>
> <http://www.thecoffeefaq.com/>

Sour milk also does not provide the same chemical properties as cultured or
even better, dried buttermilk.
"The product sold today in the dairy case is labeled "cultured" because a
specially prepared culture of beneficial bacteria, developed under
laboratory conditions, is added to skim milk to produce the acidity, body,
flavor, and aroma so characteristic of old fashioned "soured" buttermilk.
When added to skim milk, these bacteria multiply and convert some of the
milk sugar (lactose) to lactic acid. The lactic acid gives the cultured milk
its tart flavor. The thickness is the result of the bacterial action of the
milk protein.

Although fluid "Cultured Buttermilk" is an excellent beverage, providing
many nutritional benefits, it does not have the same chemical properties as
real churned buttermilk.

Chemical Composition is the Key
The chemical composition of churned buttermilk holds the key to its
desirable baking characteristics.

The suggested structure of a fat globule membrane is such that fat droplets
in milk are prevented from coalescing by a thin coating of emulsifier (a few
millimicrons thick) around the fat globules at the liquid/fat interface.

Four types of phospholipids participate in the formation of the fat globule
membrane. It appears that near the periphery of the fat globules there are
segregated high-melting triglycerides which join the non-polar prongs of the
phospholipid molecules (molecules of Vitamin A and cholesterol are
interspersed among the phospholipid molecules).

Churned buttermilk contains emulsifiers
When whole milk stands, the many clusters of emulsified fat droplets, being
lighter, rise to the top of the milk in a process called "creaming". Butter
can be extracted from cream by churning. When the cream is agitated in a
butter churn, the membranes around the fat globules are disrupted. The cream
then separates into two pieces; the butterfat and the fluid phase. The
phospholipids, protein and bound water that compose the fat globule membrane
separate from the fat globule. This allows the butterfat to precipitate out
in the form of butter. The phospholipids, meanwhile, remain in the fluid
phase. The fluid that remains, after all the butterfat has been removed as
butter, is similar to skim milk except it contains the phospholipids and
proteins from the fat globule membranes. These phospholipids are natural
emulsifiers!

The value of real buttermilk in baking
When real buttermilk is used in a recipe, the presence of these emulsifiers
results in finer dispersing of the shortening throughout the batter. The
smaller air cells which form in the presence of the emulsifier make the
grain of baked goods finer, the volume and texture superior. This is by far
the most important advantage of using real buttermilk for cooking and
baking.

Since most recipes that call for buttermilk also call for baking soda, it is
essential that there is an acidic ingredient in the recipe to react with the
baking soda. This is why it is important for buttermilk (either fluid or
dry) to be "cultured". The acidic nature of "churned" buttermilk contributes
to the leavening process which is necessary for successful baking.

The "culturing" process also gives buttermilk (either fluid or dry) its
distinct, acidic flavor. However, this flavor is often disguised by other
ingredients in the recipe.

Many cookbooks suggest that buttermilk can be substituted with milk that has
been "soured" by the addition of lemon juice or vinegar. This substitution
is not as effective in the baking process as either fluid "Cultured
Buttermilk" or real churned buttermilk."

SACO FOODS excerpt

I substitute plain yogurt for buttermilk in baked goods all the time and
never notice a difference in the results. (There probably is a
difference, but I can't say it is noticeable or important.) I used to
pour in a little milk to make the yogurt the same consistency as
buttermilk, but I stopped doing even that because I couldn't detect a
difference in the end result.


I started doing this for exactly the reason you mention: buttermilk is
sold in quart containers, and I generally only needed a cup for whatever
cake or muffins I was making. My current trouble is that while I used
to be able to find plain yogurt in 1 cup containers in the snack section
of the dairy case, now I'm only able to find sweetened and fruited
yogurt that small. The plain stuff I like to bake with is sold in-- you
guessed it-- the quart size or larger.


I suppose I could sour fresh milk with a little vinegar, but that takes
time and planning. I could also freeze buttermilk or yogurt, but that
takes time and planning too to defrost. All I want is for the
supermarkets to sell the ingredients I want in the portion sizes I want
(at a not too inflated price).


--Lia


Michael wrote:
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael
>

I substitute plain yogurt for buttermilk in baked goods all the time and
never notice a difference in the results. (There probably is a
difference, but I can't say it is noticeable or important.) I used to
pour in a little milk to make the yogurt the same consistency as
buttermilk, but I stopped doing even that because I couldn't detect a
difference in the end result.


I started doing this for exactly the reason you mention: buttermilk is
sold in quart containers, and I generally only needed a cup for whatever
cake or muffins I was making. My current trouble is that while I used
to be able to find plain yogurt in 1 cup containers in the snack section
of the dairy case, now I'm only able to find sweetened and fruited
yogurt that small. The plain stuff I like to bake with is sold in-- you
guessed it-- the quart size or larger.


I suppose I could sour fresh milk with a little vinegar, but that takes
time and planning. I could also freeze buttermilk or yogurt, but that
takes time and planning too to defrost. All I want is for the
supermarkets to sell the ingredients I want in the portion sizes I want
(at a not too inflated price).


--Lia


Michael wrote:
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael
>

Michael wrote:
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael

There really isn't a *great* substitution. However, buttermilk usually
keeps for a long time. I don't know what your interpretation of "big
containers" is. I can use a quart of buttermilk fairly quickly but then
again I like to bake cornbread.

I tried the dry buttermilk powder years ago and it worked pretty well.

Jill

Michael wrote:
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael

There really isn't a *great* substitution. However, buttermilk usually
keeps for a long time. I don't know what your interpretation of "big
containers" is. I can use a quart of buttermilk fairly quickly but then
again I like to bake cornbread.

I tried the dry buttermilk powder years ago and it worked pretty well.

Jill

>"jmcquown" writes:
>
>Michael wrote:
>> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
>> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
>> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
>> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
>> could just use milk instead, but is there any
>> other common ingredient that I might add to this
>> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
>> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>>
>> Thank you, Michael
>
>There really isn't a *great* substitution. However, buttermilk usually
>keeps for a long time. I don't know what your interpretation of "big
>containers" is. I can use a quart of buttermilk fairly quickly but then
>again I like to bake cornbread.
>
>I tried the dry buttermilk powder years ago and it worked pretty well.

Becca's suggestion to use plain milk with a little vinegar will work perfectly
well for baking a cake... even with yogurt the cultures will be destroyed from
the heat of baking and there is no mouth feel involved other than that of the
solid cake... the only real reason for using buttermilk (or yogurt) in baking
is for increasing the acidity to give the leavener a boost, which is what the
vinegar achieves quite well (could just as easily use lemon juice except for
the flavor). The buttermilk in pancakes is to achieve a lighter/fluffier
product... plain milk with a little vinegar (as Becca suggests) will work as
well... and in fact is what's typically done at commercial bakeries, and they
use dry milk, and dry vinegar too.



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

>"jmcquown" writes:
>
>Michael wrote:
>> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
>> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
>> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
>> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
>> could just use milk instead, but is there any
>> other common ingredient that I might add to this
>> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
>> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>>
>> Thank you, Michael
>
>There really isn't a *great* substitution. However, buttermilk usually
>keeps for a long time. I don't know what your interpretation of "big
>containers" is. I can use a quart of buttermilk fairly quickly but then
>again I like to bake cornbread.
>
>I tried the dry buttermilk powder years ago and it worked pretty well.

Becca's suggestion to use plain milk with a little vinegar will work perfectly
well for baking a cake... even with yogurt the cultures will be destroyed from
the heat of baking and there is no mouth feel involved other than that of the
solid cake... the only real reason for using buttermilk (or yogurt) in baking
is for increasing the acidity to give the leavener a boost, which is what the
vinegar achieves quite well (could just as easily use lemon juice except for
the flavor). The buttermilk in pancakes is to achieve a lighter/fluffier
product... plain milk with a little vinegar (as Becca suggests) will work as
well... and in fact is what's typically done at commercial bakeries, and they
use dry milk, and dry vinegar too.



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

http://www.cdkitchen.com/features/da...37458174.shtml

http://tinyurl.com/5oshk

---= Buttermilk - Substitute =---

Substitute undrained, plain yogurt or sour cream, whisked with a little milk to
thin, in recipes that call for buttermilk.

Or combine a tablespoon of white vinegar or lemon juice with enough milk to
make 1 cup. Set the latter mixture aside for five minutes before using.
---



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

http://www.cdkitchen.com/features/da...37458174.shtml

http://tinyurl.com/5oshk

---= Buttermilk - Substitute =---

Substitute undrained, plain yogurt or sour cream, whisked with a little milk to
thin, in recipes that call for buttermilk.

Or combine a tablespoon of white vinegar or lemon juice with enough milk to
make 1 cup. Set the latter mixture aside for five minutes before using.
---



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

Michael wrote:

> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.

You can substitute some regular milk That has been soured with a bit of
vinegar or lemon juice. It is not a perfect replacement but can be used
an an emergency substitute. The smallest container of buttermilk that I
can get here is a liter, just a little larger than a US quart. I have no
problem using it up because there are so many things that I can use it
for. Buttermilk pancakes are right at the top of the list.

Michael wrote:

> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.

You can substitute some regular milk That has been soured with a bit of
vinegar or lemon juice. It is not a perfect replacement but can be used
an an emergency substitute. The smallest container of buttermilk that I
can get here is a liter, just a little larger than a US quart. I have no
problem using it up because there are so many things that I can use it
for. Buttermilk pancakes are right at the top of the list.

In article .com>,
says...
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael
>
>

Be thankful you can even find buttermilk at stores near you. None of the
markets in my area seem to have it.

Michael wrote:
>
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael


Soured milk. Add 1 tsp. vinegar to a cup of milk,
stir and let sit 15 minutes or so before using.

gloria p

Puester > wrote in news:41C5CDBF.DF080183
@worldnet.att.net:

> Michael wrote:
>>
>> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
>> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
>> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
>> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
>> could just use milk instead, but is there any
>> other common ingredient that I might add to this
>> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
>> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>>
>> Thank you, Michael
>
>
> Soured milk. Add 1 tsp. vinegar to a cup of milk,
> stir and let sit 15 minutes or so before using.
>
> gloria p
>

Or nuke the mixture for 30 seconds or so.

To use for baking in cakes, etc., you really want it to thicken or clabber.
This can take longer than 15 minutes with cold milk.

--
Wayne in Phoenix

*If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.
*A mind is a terrible thing to lose.

Puester > wrote in news:41C5CDBF.DF080183
@worldnet.att.net:

> Michael wrote:
>>
>> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
>> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
>> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
>> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
>> could just use milk instead, but is there any
>> other common ingredient that I might add to this
>> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
>> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>>
>> Thank you, Michael
>
>
> Soured milk. Add 1 tsp. vinegar to a cup of milk,
> stir and let sit 15 minutes or so before using.
>
> gloria p
>

Or nuke the mixture for 30 seconds or so.

To use for baking in cakes, etc., you really want it to thicken or clabber.
This can take longer than 15 minutes with cold milk.

--
Wayne in Phoenix

*If there's a nit to pick, some nitwit will pick it.
*A mind is a terrible thing to lose.

"Michael" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wayne posted a recipe for a German chocolate cake
> that I would like to try, but all they had at the
> grocery store was big containers of buttermilk
> and I didn't want to buy that much. Obviously I
> could just use milk instead, but is there any
> other common ingredient that I might add to this
> to bring it closer to buttermilk? My base
> ingredient will be 2% milk.
>
> Thank you, Michael

Generally speaking, you can substitute "sour" milk (milk+vinegar, usually
about 1-2 tablespoons for 1 cup of milk) for buttermilk and get similar
results.
Even better, get a can of dried buttermilk. You'll find it's quite handy and
it lasts alot longer.

kimberly
>

In article >,
"Janet Bostwick" > wrote:

> Sour milk also does not provide the same chemical properties as cultured or
> even better, dried buttermilk.

This is a distinction without a real difference. First of all, the
article distinguishes between churned and cultured buttermilk. Since the
former is, for all intents and purposes, unavailable (I've never seen it
in stores, and to make it yourself you'd have to first add culture to
non-UHT or UP cream then make your own butte), the question is between
cultured buttermilk and soured milk.

The Saco article's only seeming claim is that soured milk doesn't
contain phospholipids which, as natural emulsifiers, will more finely
disperse the shortening. Therefore, the article states, smaller air
cells form, "making the grain of baked goods finer, the volume and
texture superior." The article doesn't appear to refute my point, that
"the soured milk substitute ... will give you the desired reaction with
baking soda, if that's the goal."

--
to respond (OT only), change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"

<http://www.thecoffeefaq.com/>

In article >,
"Janet Bostwick" > wrote:

> Sour milk also does not provide the same chemical properties as cultured or
> even better, dried buttermilk.

This is a distinction without a real difference. First of all, the
article distinguishes between churned and cultured buttermilk. Since the
former is, for all intents and purposes, unavailable (I've never seen it
in stores, and to make it yourself you'd have to first add culture to
non-UHT or UP cream then make your own butte), the question is between
cultured buttermilk and soured milk.

The Saco article's only seeming claim is that soured milk doesn't
contain phospholipids which, as natural emulsifiers, will more finely
disperse the shortening. Therefore, the article states, smaller air
cells form, "making the grain of baked goods finer, the volume and
texture superior." The article doesn't appear to refute my point, that
"the soured milk substitute ... will give you the desired reaction with
baking soda, if that's the goal."

--
to respond (OT only), change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"

<http://www.thecoffeefaq.com/>

"Scott" > wrote in message
...
snip>
> The Saco article's only seeming claim is that soured milk doesn't
> contain phospholipids which, as natural emulsifiers, will more finely
> disperse the shortening. Therefore, the article states, smaller air
> cells form, "making the grain of baked goods finer, the volume and
> texture superior." The article doesn't appear to refute my point, that
> "the soured milk substitute ... will give you the desired reaction with
> baking soda, if that's the goal."
>
> --
> to respond (OT only), change "spamless.invalid" to "optonline.net"
>
> <http://www.thecoffeefaq.com/>
I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to refute your contention, only to elaborate.
Janet