We're pulling the trigger on basically a gutting-and-rebuilding
of our kitchen. New cabinets, new countertops, new appliances,
the whole thing. The only bit of the old kitchen to be left is
going to be the fridge, and that only because it's still got a
lot of life left in it (the wall oven, cooktop and dishwasher
date, I kid you not, from about 1972).

We've more or less settled on granite for the countertops and
some sort of middle-range cabinetry to be named later, but are
considering appliances first. We're leaning towards the GE
Monogram series of range and range hood - dual-fuel convection,
and lots of both BTUs and CFMs. High-end Kitchenaid dishwasher,
and forget the microwave for now.

That's about as far as we've gotten, though. Any advice?

(Do NOT NOT NOT suggest electric burners.)

Thanks!

--
Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
================================================== ======================
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov

"Mark Shaw" > wrote in message
...
> We're pulling the trigger on basically a gutting-and-rebuilding
> of our kitchen. New cabinets, new countertops, new appliances,
> the whole thing. The only bit of the old kitchen to be left is
> going to be the fridge, and that only because it's still got a
> lot of life left in it (the wall oven, cooktop and dishwasher
> date, I kid you not, from about 1972).
>
> We've more or less settled on granite for the countertops and
> some sort of middle-range cabinetry to be named later, but are
> considering appliances first. We're leaning towards the GE
> Monogram series of range and range hood - dual-fuel convection,
> and lots of both BTUs and CFMs. High-end Kitchenaid dishwasher,
> and forget the microwave for now.
>
> That's about as far as we've gotten, though. Any advice?
>
> (Do NOT NOT NOT suggest electric burners.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> --
> Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
Check out Consumer Reports for all the appliances. Kitchenaid for a
dishwasher, even high end, is not a good idea. Even Kenmore rates higher
than Kitchenaid. Pick out your dream refrigerator now and build a space
for it so that you will have enough room when it gets time to replace the
old fridge. Be sure that the range hood has a good filter that is easily
reached for cleaning. Good choice to replace the wall oven with a range.
Janet

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:07:07 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw
> wrote:

>We're pulling the trigger on basically a gutting-and-rebuilding
>of our kitchen. New cabinets, new countertops, new appliances,
>the whole thing. The only bit of the old kitchen to be left is
>going to be the fridge, and that only because it's still got a
>lot of life left in it (the wall oven, cooktop and dishwasher
>date, I kid you not, from about 1972).
>
>We've more or less settled on granite for the countertops and
>some sort of middle-range cabinetry to be named later, but are
>considering appliances first. We're leaning towards the GE
>Monogram series of range and range hood - dual-fuel convection,
>and lots of both BTUs and CFMs. High-end Kitchenaid dishwasher,
>and forget the microwave for now.
>
>That's about as far as we've gotten, though. Any advice?

Design the top cabinets to go up to the ceiling. More room, and no
greasy cabinet tops to clean.
Consider stainless steel for the contertop. We redid our kitchen last
May (it was older than yours - 1960 - though the appliances were
newer) and used SS. I *love* it. And the mixture of SS and light wood
(beech) looks great.

Nathalie in Switzerland

Mark Shaw wrote:
> We're pulling the trigger on basically a gutting-and-
> rebuilding of our kitchen. New cabinets, new
> countertops, new appliances, the whole thing. The only
> bit of the old kitchen to be left is going to be the
> fridge, and that only because it's still got a lot of
> life left in it (the wall oven, cooktop and dishwasher
> date, I kid you not, from about 1972).
>
> We've more or less settled on granite for the countertops
> and some sort of middle-range cabinetry to be named
> later, but are considering appliances first. We're
> leaning towards the GE Monogram series of range and range
> hood - dual-fuel convection, and lots of both BTUs and
> CFMs. High-end Kitchenaid dishwasher, and forget the
> microwave for now.
>
> That's about as far as we've gotten, though. Any advice?
>
> (Do NOT NOT NOT suggest electric burners.)
>
> Thanks!

We did the "wonder kitchen" thing after the house was flooded a few years
ago.
Here's a few of the things we did:

SINK: Three bowls. one deep on either side with a shallow on in the middle.
Disposer is in the middle (we used a 1HP commercial disposer). The switch
for the disposer is pneumatic so the button is right on the sink back, handy
when you have wet or messy hands. A high rise faucet with pull-out spray is
nice for rincing large pots etc.

I also added a small bar sink right next to the stove. Handy for filling and
draining large pots.

At each sink there is a separate tap for filtered water. The filters are
under the cabinets of course. On one of the units I came from the filtered
cold water to a "hot shot" heater that keeps 1/2 gallon of filtered water at
190 degrees. We found a nice tap for the filtered water that dispenses hot &
cold from the same tap. Instant coffee, soup, and tea are a snap to do with
this arrangement.

BUILT-INs: Don't forget the microwave, it still has uses, as does a toaster
oven / broiler / rotisserie. Mount them under cabinets to save counter
space. While you're at it consider other under cabinet items i.e. blender,
radio/CD/TV, knife block. Consider built-in under counter trash compactor,
ice maker, wine cooler. A small PC with access to your recipe database might
be "over the top" but could be handy if you're as geeky as I am. I didn't
do as much of this as I wish I had. Don't forget under cabinet flourescent
lights to brighten up the workspace.

SEPARATE FREEZER: We selected equal size (27CF) refrigerator and freezer.
Didn't put them side-by-side but probably should have.

RANGE HOOD: We topped a 30 inch dual-fuel range with a 36 inch Broan
Rangemaster hood. We selected the extra capacity 900 CFM blower which can
quickly deal with life's little "oopsies". It also has halogen lighting,
infra-red warming lights, and easy clean filters. We follwed the hood with a
matching stainless steel backsplash down to the stovetop. Looks great and is
very functional.

MAGNETS: are your friend. I added strip magnets along the bottom of the hood
on both sides and across the backsplash. Many of the frequently used
implements are held up on the magnets ready for a quick grab when needed.
Similarly magnetic clips keep other items on the backsplash. A pair of
Polder thermometers and large timer came with magnets on the back and are
stuck in convenient spots.

DEEP DRAWERS: Our kitchen designer suggested these and they are great. All
the pots/ pans, etc. go in them and they are easy to access. We also added a
lazy susan (rotating shelves) for the cornor cabinet. It eliminates those
deep - dark spaces that things get lost in.

DOUBLE DEPTH PANTRY: We added two floor-to-ceiling pantry cupboards. One is
double depth and has swing-out front shelves to the back us easy to reach. I
almost wish we had gone even deeper (we had the space) as we manage to fill
the unit all too often.
--
Pete Romfh, Telecom Geek & Amateur Gourmet.
promfh at hal dash pc dot org

Nathalie Chiva > wrote:

> Design the top cabinets to go up to the ceiling. More room, and no
> greasy cabinet tops to clean.

Actually, we're doing just the opposite to gain more storage
space (atop the cabinetry) for seldom-used small appliances
and the like. The overall footprint of the kitchen is quite
small.

The situation today is that we have a false lower ceiling in
the main work area of the kitchen, that apparently serves no
purpose other than to hold a light soffit. That's coming out,
and we'll put can lights in the new, higher ceiling. And a
pot rack, maybe.

> Consider stainless steel for the contertop. We redid our kitchen last
> May (it was older than yours - 1960 - though the appliances were
> newer) and used SS. I *love* it. And the mixture of SS and light wood
> (beech) looks great.

Doesn't SS scratch easily?

--
Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
================================================== ======================
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov

Janet Bostwick > wrote:
> Check out Consumer Reports for all the appliances.

Did that.

> Kitchenaid for a
> dishwasher, even high end, is not a good idea. Even Kenmore rates higher
> than Kitchenaid.

Hmm, I thought KA rated near the top in the most recent
go-round. I'll have to recheck. We really do like the
looks of the S series.

> Pick out your dream refrigerator now and build a space
> for it so that you will have enough room when it gets time to replace the
> old fridge.

Good idea; thanks.

> Be sure that the range hood has a good filter that is easily
> reached for cleaning.

Yeah, the other thing I'm looking for is a good, strong
fan. That's why I nixed the idea of a combination hood/
microwave. I think I'll just keep the existing microwave,
and move it into the garage. I only ever use the damned
thing to pop corn and warm coffee anyway.

> Good choice to replace the wall oven with a range.

I was amazed at the price differential. And the space
savings is even more important.

--
Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
================================================== ======================
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov

I'll be interested to see how you progress. We're also in the
planning stages. We're going to remove the wall between the formal
dining room and kitchen and make a large eat-in kitchen.

We're also planning to go with high-end appliances, granite, etc.

Do you have pictures to share?

"Pete Romfh" > wrote in message
...
> Mark Shaw wrote:
>> We're pulling the trigger on basically a gutting-and-
>> rebuilding of our kitchen. New cabinets, new
>> countertops, new appliances, the whole thing. The only
>> bit of the old kitchen to be left is going to be the
>> fridge, and that only because it's still got a lot of
>> life left in it (the wall oven, cooktop and dishwasher
>> date, I kid you not, from about 1972).
>>
>> We've more or less settled on granite for the countertops
>> and some sort of middle-range cabinetry to be named
>> later, but are considering appliances first. We're
>> leaning towards the GE Monogram series of range and range
>> hood - dual-fuel convection, and lots of both BTUs and
>> CFMs. High-end Kitchenaid dishwasher, and forget the
>> microwave for now.
>>
>> That's about as far as we've gotten, though. Any advice?
>>
>> (Do NOT NOT NOT suggest electric burners.)
>>
>> Thanks!
>
> We did the "wonder kitchen" thing after the house was flooded a few years
> ago.
> Here's a few of the things we did:
>
> SINK: Three bowls. one deep on either side with a shallow on in the
> middle.
> Disposer is in the middle (we used a 1HP commercial disposer). The switch
> for the disposer is pneumatic so the button is right on the sink back,
> handy
> when you have wet or messy hands. A high rise faucet with pull-out spray
> is
> nice for rincing large pots etc.

snip
Right! I forgot to mention the high rise faucet--I don't care for the
pull-out spray, myself, but I love my new high faucet that allows me to run
water into tall pots.

snip
> DOUBLE DEPTH PANTRY: We added two floor-to-ceiling pantry cupboards. One
> is
> double depth and has swing-out front shelves to the back us easy to reach.
> I
> almost wish we had gone even deeper (we had the space) as we manage to
> fill
> the unit all too often.

Yes! Yes! Yes! I've been crawling around my kitchen(hands and knees and
ladders) this winter re-arranging, cleaning etc. I absolutely agreee about
the floor to ceiling pantry cupboards. I can't do it in my current kitchen
setup because of the darned wall oven, but if we were doing a remodel again,
I'd do it in a heartbeat. There is too much wasted cupboard space in a
kitchen just because the countertop interrupts your ability to really use
anything above the bottom, possibly second from the bottom shelf. Anything
else, and you have to get a ladder or step stool. Even ladder access to the
higher cupboards is hampered by countertops.
Janet

"Mark Shaw" > wrote in message
...
> Nathalie Chiva > wrote:
>
>> Design the top cabinets to go up to the ceiling. More room, and no
>> greasy cabinet tops to clean.
>
> Actually, we're doing just the opposite to gain more storage
> space (atop the cabinetry) for seldom-used small appliances
> and the like. The overall footprint of the kitchen is quite
> small.

Nah, take the cabs to the ceiling and include a small appliance garage in
them, at least a shelf, eliminating the stretch and grease buildup. Over
the cab top catches a lot of dirt, even in a clean kitchen.

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:04:23 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

> Good choice to replace the wall oven with a range.

That's a suggestion I can't endorse. I like having double
wall ovens and a separate cooktop. I also like having my
pot & bowl storage directly underneath the cooktop.

sf

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 06:39:31 -1000, "zuuum"
> wrote:

> Nah, take the cabs to the ceiling and include a small appliance garage in
> them, at least a shelf, eliminating the stretch and grease buildup. Over
> the cab top catches a lot of dirt, even in a clean kitchen.

Which can be easily taken care of by what I call a soffit,
but I guess is really a facia, to the cealing. Personally,
I don't like that cabinet to the ceiling look. If I ever
remodel my kitchen, I'll keep the soffit and build indirect
into lighting it.

sf

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:04:23 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> > wrote:
>
>> Good choice to replace the wall oven with a range.
>
> That's a suggestion I can't endorse. I like having double
> wall ovens and a separate cooktop. I also like having my
> pot & bowl storage directly underneath the cooktop.
>
> sf
I agree that a wall oven is extremely convenient. I like the storage under
the cooktop too. I'm no longer happy with the idea because just about each
model of same designated size--same brand, different brand, doesn't
matter--requires a different cutout that requires cutting into the existing
cabinets or building up the existing space. This isn't an issue if you are
doing a base remodel, but if you are trying to replace a wall oven, you have
a problem. This means you can't purchase according to what you want, but
rather what is available to buy without destroying your existing cabinets.
And the more time passes between initial installation of the existing wall
oven, the more styles change and the more radical the cutout changes become.
Ranges are pretty much standard widths. I have found that replacement parts
for wall ovens are very expensive. If you have cabinetry above the wall
oven, over time the cabinets will become discolored from the venting steam
and heat, or at least mine have because I do a lot of 500F baking for
artisanal bread. Wall ovens have less interior space than is available for
range units. Depending upon the size of your wall oven, this may restrict
what common pan sizes you can use. Wall ovens are very expensive to buy for
what you get in return. I just don't think they are a good deal.
Janet

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:14:20 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw
> wrote:

>Nathalie Chiva > wrote:
>
>> Design the top cabinets to go up to the ceiling. More room, and no
>> greasy cabinet tops to clean.
>
>Actually, we're doing just the opposite to gain more storage
>space (atop the cabinetry) for seldom-used small appliances
>and the like. The overall footprint of the kitchen is quite
>small.

Too bad - then it's the seldom-used appliances which will gather
greasy dust. I do the same - I store that kind of thing high-up, but
in the top upper cabinets (I have actually two separate lines of upper
cabinets, if you see what I mean). It's a great scheme.

>
>Doesn't SS scratch easily?

Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
and doesn't show scratches, obviously.

Nathalie in Switzerland

On Wed 26 Jan 2005 05:31:22a, Nathalie Chiva wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:14:20 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw
> > wrote:
>
>>Nathalie Chiva > wrote:
>>
>>> Design the top cabinets to go up to the ceiling. More room, and no
>>> greasy cabinet tops to clean.
>>
>>Actually, we're doing just the opposite to gain more storage
>>space (atop the cabinetry) for seldom-used small appliances
>>and the like. The overall footprint of the kitchen is quite small.
>
> Too bad - then it's the seldom-used appliances which will gather
> greasy dust. I do the same - I store that kind of thing high-up, but
> in the top upper cabinets (I have actually two separate lines of upper
> cabinets, if you see what I mean). It's a great scheme.
>
>>
>>Doesn't SS scratch easily?
>
> Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
> it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
> and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
>
> Nathalie in Switzerland

LOL! Some like to call it a "patina". Personally, I think it looks like
crap most of the time, but I know a lot of people love it. Even in
apartments I've lived in, I've had the SS sink removed and replaced with
porcelainized cast iron.

OTOH, SS is by far the most resistant to actual damage, although it can
show serious dings.

Just my 2¢

Wayne

sf wrote:

Which can be easily taken care of by what I call a soffit,
but I guess is really a facia, to the cealing. Personally,
I don't like that cabinet to the ceiling look. If I ever
remodel my kitchen, I'll keep the soffit and build indirect
into lighting it.

************
Hmm... OK. Most of the houses that I see without cabinets
to the ceiling have bulkheads above them. Like everything,
there are trade-offs either way you go. I would definitely like
to have cabinets all the way to the ceiling. It is hard to access
the top then, but it is a good place for stuff that is rarely used.
Michael

sumwon sed:
>Doesn't SS scratch easily?

Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
Nathalie in Switzerland

With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... and no matter how careful I am
its brushed finish shows scratches and wear marks... the only way to
keep it pristine is to not ever use it.

Sheldon

Sheldon wrote in message
.com>...
>sumwon sed:
>>Doesn't SS scratch easily?
>
>Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
>it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
>and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
>Nathalie in Switzerland
>
>With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
>mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
>scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
>and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
>scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
>accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
>especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
>appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
>reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
>dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
>Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... and no matter how careful I am
>its brushed finish shows scratches and wear marks... the only way to
>keep it pristine is to not ever use it.
>

after working in a commercial kitchen, im sold on stainless counters. i
don't care about how they look; they are expremely functional and easy to
clean.

--
saerah

TANSTAAFL

CrzyBitch (3:25:06 AM): I'm a secret agent, and a princess




----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= East/West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

Curly Sue wrote:

> Range hood- get one with filters that can be put in the dishwasher.
> Mine, which I haven't installed yet, also has a teflon plate behind
> the filters for easy cleaning.

Would you cough up a brand name? I'm on the verge of not paying down the
mortgage and getting a better kitchen instead just to get rid of that
disgusting hunk of metal.
blacksalt

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:34:02 -0500, "Saerah"
> wrote:

>
>Sheldon wrote in message
s.com>...
>>sumwon sed:
>>>Doesn't SS scratch easily?
>>
>>Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
>>it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
>>and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
>>Nathalie in Switzerland
>>
>>With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
>>mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
>>scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
>>and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
>>scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
>>accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
>>especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
>>appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
>>reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
>>dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
>>Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... and no matter how careful I am
>>its brushed finish shows scratches and wear marks... the only way to
>>keep it pristine is to not ever use it.
>>
>
>after working in a commercial kitchen, im sold on stainless counters. i
>don't care about how they look; they are expremely functional and easy to
>clean.
>

How is the function of stainless steel extremely different from other
surfaces? They're all horizontal, something spills, you wipe it. My
guess to answer that would be that you can put a hot pan directly on
SS and you don't have to seal it or other fuss like the stone ones.
But I've never worked on SS so perhaps you had some other features in
mind?

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:07:07 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw
> wrote:

>We're pulling the trigger on basically a gutting-and-rebuilding
>of our kitchen. New cabinets, new countertops, new appliances,
>the whole thing. The only bit of the old kitchen to be left is
>going to be the fridge, and that only because it's still got a
>lot of life left in it (the wall oven, cooktop and dishwasher
>date, I kid you not, from about 1972).

<snip>

>That's about as far as we've gotten, though. Any advice?
>
When and if you replace your refrigerator with SS, you can kiss your
refrigerator magnets goodbye. SS appliances don't hold magnets.
Things the sales reps don't tell you...

Range hood- get one with filters that can be put in the dishwasher.
Mine, which I haven't installed yet, also has a teflon plate behind
the filters for easy cleaning.

Range hood noise is measured in "sones." Look for a quiet range hood
if your place is small. Air flow is measured in cfm, look for faster.


Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

kalanamak wrote:
> Curly Sue wrote:
>
>> Range hood- get one with filters that can be put in the
>> dishwasher. Mine, which I haven't installed yet, also
>> has a teflon plate behind the filters for easy cleaning.
>
> Would you cough up a brand name? I'm on the verge of not
> paying down the mortgage and getting a better kitchen
> instead just to get rid of that disgusting hunk of metal.
> blacksalt

I like my Broan Rangemaster. It was a bit pricy but does a lot more than
just move air.

http://www.broan.com/display/router.asp?ProductID=1182




--
Pete Romfh, Telecom Geek & Amateur Gourmet.
promfh at hal dash pc dot org

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:38:14 -0800, kalanamak >
wrote:

>Curly Sue wrote:
>
>> Range hood- get one with filters that can be put in the dishwasher.
>> Mine, which I haven't installed yet, also has a teflon plate behind
>> the filters for easy cleaning.
>
>Would you cough up a brand name? I'm on the verge of not paying down the
>mortgage and getting a better kitchen instead just to get rid of that
>disgusting hunk of metal.
>blacksalt

It's a Broan Allure III and, like Pete's, a bit pricey but it will be
a long overdue addition to the kitchen. I ordered it from Lowe's.

Right now I'm going through all sorts of angst to get it vented to the
outside (there's a stud about 2" in the way).

Other than that, it looks like a fairly easy installation.

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 05:07:07 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw
> wrote:

<snip>

>That's about as far as we've gotten, though. Any advice?
>
>(Do NOT NOT NOT suggest electric burners.)

Heaven forfend I'd suggest electric burners.

I've totally trashed/remodeled three kitchens and my truak and error
can testify to:

Fisher Paykel dishwasher. Takes up no more space than a regular
dishwasher, but is a two drawer "filing cabinet," which run
independently of each other. Has multiple washing settings. Very, very
quiet. Very, very cool.

Thermidor dual fuel stove. Gas cooktop with star burners that spread
the heat very well. Also has super-slow and super, super-slow settings
on 2 or more burners that turn themselves on and off for slow cooking.
Can also buy a hood that includes warmer lights and a warmer shelf
accessory. Tried the Dacor in kitchen #1 - hated the digital buttons.
The Thermador has *knobs*.

SubZero's bottom-drawer freezer/refrigerator. In 35 years of cookery,
this was the most efficient, easy-to-use refrigerator I've ever had.
Would buy it again in a heartbeat.

Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd
AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA


"If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret had been as
old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had been as full as the
waitress's, it would have been a very good dinner."

-- Duncan Hines

To reply, replace "spaminator" with "cox"

Curly Sue wrote in message >...
>On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:34:02 -0500, "Saerah"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Sheldon wrote in message
ps.com>...
>>>sumwon sed:
>>>>Doesn't SS scratch easily?
>>>
>>>Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
>>>it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
>>>and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
>>>Nathalie in Switzerland
>>>
>>>With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
>>>mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
>>>scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
>>>and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
>>>scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
>>>accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
>>>especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
>>>appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
>>>reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
>>>dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
>>>Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... and no matter how careful I am
>>>its brushed finish shows scratches and wear marks... the only way to
>>>keep it pristine is to not ever use it.
>>>
>>
>>after working in a commercial kitchen, im sold on stainless counters. i
>>don't care about how they look; they are expremely functional and easy to
>>clean.
>>
>
>How is the function of stainless steel extremely different from other
>surfaces? They're all horizontal, something spills, you wipe it. My
>guess to answer that would be that you can put a hot pan directly on
>SS and you don't have to seal it or other fuss like the stone ones.
>But I've never worked on SS so perhaps you had some other features in
>mind?

nope. those are the ones. plus, there's no cracks, really to catch crud.

--
saerah

TANSTAAFL

CrzyBitch (3:25:06 AM): I'm a secret agent, and a princess




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On 26 Jan 2005 05:53:11 -0800, "Sheldon" >
wrote:

> With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
> mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
> scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
> and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
> scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
> accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
> especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
> appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
> reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
> dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
> Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... and no matter how careful I am
> its brushed finish shows scratches and wear marks... the only way to
> keep it pristine is to not ever use it.

"My house" as a kid had a ss kitchen sink, stovetop and
(commercial) refrigerator way back in the '50s. Mom used
abrasive cleaners (heck, she used Brillo pads) on them and
didn't care. I went back to my childhood home 20+ years
after I left. It had been bought by "city" people who were
going to remodel, but everything was still the way I
rememberd it when I visited - the ss may have been old, but
it looked great!

LOL - just like me
<wink>

Who cares if the brush marks are all in the same direction?
What matters is the patina!

sf

On Thu, 27 Jan 2005 00:56:54 GMT,
(Curly Sue) wrote:

> SS appliances don't hold magnets.
> Things the sales reps don't tell you...

How true!

My refrigerator is in a weird place... so I can stick
magnets on the side (which wouldn't normally be accessible).

sf

On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 16:38:14 -0800, kalanamak
> wrote:

> Curly Sue wrote:
>
> > Range hood- get one with filters that can be put in the dishwasher.
> > Mine, which I haven't installed yet, also has a teflon plate behind
> > the filters for easy cleaning.
>
> Would you cough up a brand name? I'm on the verge of not paying down the
> mortgage and getting a better kitchen instead just to get rid of that
> disgusting hunk of metal.
> blacksalt

Look at Vent-A-Hood for starters.


sf

On 26 Jan 2005 05:53:11 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>sumwon sed:
>>Doesn't SS scratch easily?
>
>Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
>it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
>and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
>Nathalie in Switzerland
>
>With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
>mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
>scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
>and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
>scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
>accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
>especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
>appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
>reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
>dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
>Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... and no matter how careful I am
>its brushed finish shows scratches and wear marks... the only way to
>keep it pristine is to not ever use it.
>
>Sheldon

No, the brushed SS I have is brushed circularly, not all in the same
direction. Believe me, I use and clean my countertops *a lot* and
there are no visible marks.

Nathalie in Switzerland

On Thu 27 Jan 2005 02:12:19a, Nathalie Chiva wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On 26 Jan 2005 05:53:11 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:
>
>>sumwon sed:
>>>Doesn't SS scratch easily?
>>
>>Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
>>it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
>>and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
>>Nathalie in Switzerland
>>
>>With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
>>mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
>>scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
>>and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
>>scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
>>accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
>>especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
>>appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
>>reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
>>dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
>>Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... and no matter how careful I am
>>its brushed finish shows scratches and wear marks... the only way to
>>keep it pristine is to not ever use it.
>>
>>Sheldon
>
> No, the brushed SS I have is brushed circularly, not all in the same
> direction. Believe me, I use and clean my countertops *a lot* and
> there are no visible marks.
>
> Nathalie in Switzerland

Nathalie, I suspect the SS you have available in SS and Europe in general
is somewhat different than what we have in the US. No kidding.

Wayne

No, the brushed SS I have is brushed circularly, not all in the same
direction. Believe me, I use and clean my countertops *a lot* and
there are no visible marks.

Nathalie in Switzerland

Circularly IS in the same direction... patterned finishes, because
they're typically repetitive, are even more prone to showing
scratches/wear.

Regardless of the pattern, any *random* scratches/marks made will be
very obvious.... there is no way that SS won't become scratched/worn
through use... if yours is not marred then it's only because you do not
use it... perhaps you've still not peeled off the protective film.
Sheldon

Wayne wrote:

> Nathalie, I suspect the SS you have available in SS and Europe in general
> is somewhat different than what we have in the US. No kidding.

I think you mean "the SS you have available in CH and Europe in general".

Bob

On Thu 27 Jan 2005 07:51:06a, Bob wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Wayne wrote:
>
>> Nathalie, I suspect the SS you have available in SS and Europe in general
>> is somewhat different than what we have in the US. No kidding.
>
> I think you mean "the SS you have available in CH and Europe in general".
>
> Bob

I think you're right! :-) I hadn't had my dose of caffeine yet. I meant to
type Switzerland.

Thanks,
Wayne

> Sheldon wrote in message
> .com>...
>>sumwon sed:
>>>Doesn't SS scratch easily?
>>
>>Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
>>it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
>>and doesn't show scratches, obviously.
>>Nathalie in Switzerland
>>
>>With brushed SS the brush marks are all in the same direction... you
>>mean to say that folks where you live will be certain to make all their
>>scratches in the same precise direction and exactly to the same depth
>>and width? Yoose gots to be kidding... of course brushed SS shows
>>scratches, and those scratches look three times as serious when made
>>accross the grain... and brushed SS countertops begin to look
>>especially old and worn as the brush marks wear away and shiny spots
>>appear in the areas that get the most use. Brushed metal is best
>>reserved for vertical and non-work surfaces like the fridge, stove, and
>>dishwasher, not counter tops. My kitchen sink is SS, a very expensive
>>Elkay (the Rolls Royce of SS sinks)... <snip>
==================

Did you try pricing the Frankays (sp?)? They're usually even pricier than
the Elkays.

Cyndi

"Sheldon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> No, the brushed SS I have is brushed circularly, not all in the same
> direction. Believe me, I use and clean my countertops *a lot* and
> there are no visible marks.
>
> Nathalie in Switzerland
>
> Circularly IS in the same direction... patterned finishes, because
> they're typically repetitive, are even more prone to showing
> scratches/wear.
>
> Regardless of the pattern, any *random* scratches/marks made will be
> very obvious.... there is no way that SS won't become scratched/worn
> through use... if yours is not marred then it's only because you do not
> use it... perhaps you've still not peeled off the protective film.
> Sheldon
>==============

Hers may be a much heavier guage too. The guage size seems to really make a
difference.

Cyndi

Rick & Cyndi wrote:
> "Sheldon" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > No, the brushed SS I have is brushed circularly, not all in the
same
> > direction. Believe me, I use and clean my countertops *a lot* and
> > there are no visible marks.
> >
> > Nathalie in Switzerland
> >
> > Circularly IS in the same direction... patterned finishes, because
> > they're typically repetitive, are even more prone to showing
> > scratches/wear.
> >
> > Regardless of the pattern, any *random* scratches/marks made will
be
> > very obvious.... there is no way that SS won't become
scratched/worn
> > through use... if yours is not marred then it's only because you do
not
> > use it... perhaps you've still not peeled off the protective film.
> > Sheldon
> >==============
>
> Hers may be a much heavier guage too. The guage size seems to really
make a
> difference.
>
> Cyndi

Sheet metal gauge only refers to thickness, has no bearing whatsoever
on surface wearability/scratchability. The SS alloy used for food
service (typically 18/10) is fairly soft, therefore scratches rather
easily. In any event I've never seen textured SS used for counter tops
in the US (would not be very sanitary), I've only seen polished SS used
for counter tops... same as with SS cookware... the exterior may be
textured/brushed but the interior is always polished/smooth. If they
use brushed SS contertops in Switzerland that just coinsides with the
fact that Europeans are not clean people... I've always maintained
that, maybe now you'll believe me. The Swiss are as filthy-dirty a
people as the Eyelians and Frogs.

sf > wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 00:04:23 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> > wrote:

> > Good choice to replace the wall oven with a range.

> That's a suggestion I can't endorse. I like having double
> wall ovens and a separate cooktop. I also like having my
> pot & bowl storage directly underneath the cooktop.

First of all, my apologies for having started this thread
and then not kept up with it. I got very busy with both
personal and professional issues.

As far as moving from a wall oven to a range, one problem
with this project is space - I'm dealing with a rectangular
kitchen / breakfast nook area, and the kitchen portion is
only about 8' x 13'. A range is a more efficient use of
space.

The second issue is price. My budget for this is reasonably
large, but not unlimited. I figure I'm saving several thousand
dollars opting for a range rather than a comparable wall oven
and cooktop combination.

--
Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
================================================== ======================
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov

Nathalie Chiva > wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 14:14:20 +0000 (UTC), Mark Shaw
> > wrote:

> >> Design the top cabinets to go up to the ceiling. More room, and no
> >> greasy cabinet tops to clean.
> >
> >Actually, we're doing just the opposite to gain more storage
> >space (atop the cabinetry) for seldom-used small appliances
> >and the like. The overall footprint of the kitchen is quite
> >small.

> Too bad - then it's the seldom-used appliances which will gather
> greasy dust.

That's okay - they're used seldom enough that it won't be a
pain to clean them before each use.

> >Doesn't SS scratch easily?

> Never use the shiny kind - you must use what we call "brushed" SS -
> it's actually SS with inbuilt millions of microscratches, looks lovely
> and doesn't show scratches, obviously.

Thanks, I'll check it out.


--
Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
================================================== ======================
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov

Saerah > wrote:
> after working in a commercial kitchen, im sold on stainless counters. i
> don't care about how they look; they are expremely functional and easy to
> clean.

That's one of my motivations as well - I spent nearly ten
years in the restaurant business, and have an appreciation
for quality tools. That's one of the reasons I'm insisting
on a convection oven.

I may also tile the kitchen with that red/orange material
common in commercial kitchens - but we'll see.

--
Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
================================================== ======================
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov

Pete Romfh > wrote:

> SINK: Three bowls. one deep on either side with a shallow on in the middle.
> Disposer is in the middle (we used a 1HP commercial disposer). The switch
> for the disposer is pneumatic so the button is right on the sink back, handy
> when you have wet or messy hands. A high rise faucet with pull-out spray is
> nice for rincing large pots etc.

Sounds good. Is this an integral or under-the counter sink, or
conventional mounting? Any opinions on those options?

> I also added a small bar sink right next to the stove. Handy for filling and
> draining large pots.

I'd like to do that but we're not plumbed on that side. And
with a slab foundation it's unlikely we'll ever be plumbed on
that side.

> At each sink there is a separate tap for filtered water. The filters are
> under the cabinets of course. On one of the units I came from the filtered
> cold water to a "hot shot" heater that keeps 1/2 gallon of filtered water at
> 190 degrees. We found a nice tap for the filtered water that dispenses hot &
> cold from the same tap. Instant coffee, soup, and tea are a snap to do with
> this arrangement.

I'm thinking of whole-house filtration for water, but then
again our water is not particularly hard to begin with. I
think a small system like that might be a better buy, parti-
cularly with the cold/hot option.

> BUILT-INs: Don't forget the microwave, it still has uses, as does a toaster
> oven / broiler / rotisserie. Mount them under cabinets to save counter
> space.

I think I may actually put the microwave on a cart in the
corner. As I said in another post I'm kind of space-limited.

The one thing I think I do NOT want to do is install an
integrated microwave / range hood system. Low CFM, and if
it breaks down you've got a lot of replacement cost to boot.

> While you're at it consider other under cabinet items i.e. blender,
> radio/CD/TV, knife block. Consider built-in under counter trash compactor,
> ice maker, wine cooler.

Woah! First of all: space. Second: budget. Third: utility.
I have an icemaker in my freezer, a blender (which I never use)
in a cabinet, and wine storage in a closet at the other end of
the house. And I keep my knives shoved into an old phone book.

> A small PC with access to your recipe database might
> be "over the top" but could be handy if you're as geeky as I am.

Less "over the top" than a trash compactor.

I've been thinking of that, actually. I have an old laptop I
could use for that, along with a wireless card to get to the
recipe program on the desktop.

> SEPARATE FREEZER: We selected equal size (27CF) refrigerator and freezer.
> Didn't put them side-by-side but probably should have.

There's a full-size freezer in my garage. Again: space.

> RANGE HOOD: We topped a 30 inch dual-fuel range with a 36 inch Broan
> Rangemaster hood. We selected the extra capacity 900 CFM blower which can
> quickly deal with life's little "oopsies". It also has halogen lighting,
> infra-red warming lights, and easy clean filters. We follwed the hood with a
> matching stainless steel backsplash down to the stovetop. Looks great and is
> very functional.

That sounds like something that would work very well for us.
We frequently make a chinese dish that involves blackening
dry hot peppers, and have been pining for a way to efficiently
vent to the outside for some time. [1] I think we may go a bit
overboard on this item and the range....

> MAGNETS: are your friend. I added strip magnets along the bottom of the hood
> on both sides and across the backsplash. Many of the frequently used
> implements are held up on the magnets ready for a quick grab when needed.
> Similarly magnetic clips keep other items on the backsplash. A pair of
> Polder thermometers and large timer came with magnets on the back and are
> stuck in convenient spots.

Good idea. Thanks.

> DEEP DRAWERS: Our kitchen designer suggested these and they are great. All
> the pots/ pans, etc. go in them and they are easy to access. We also added a
> lazy susan (rotating shelves) for the cornor cabinet. It eliminates those
> deep - dark spaces that things get lost in.

Another great idea, but I don't have a corner hence won't really
need a lazy susan, I think.

> DOUBLE DEPTH PANTRY: We added two floor-to-ceiling pantry cupboards. One is
> double depth and has swing-out front shelves to the back us easy to reach. I
> almost wish we had gone even deeper (we had the space) as we manage to fill
> the unit all too often.

I've seen these on display in the home centers. Definitely
something I'm considering.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Question about initial design and such: did you use a profes-
sional designer, with plans to sign off on? Or did you just
pick out cabinetry and appliances, and let the contractor go
to work? Home Depot Expo seems to have a good deal on profes-
sional design, but you're limited to their contractors....

[1] If you've never been exposed to hot-pepper smoke, well,
it's pretty much the same stuff some law-enforcement depart-
ments use to dispell riots.

--
Mark Shaw moc TOD liamg TA wahsnm
================================================== ======================
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' but 'That's funny....'" - Isaac Asimov