Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles, and my first batch
came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I could
not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The dill
I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish, etc.,
and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available late
summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).

Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
the ones you get in new york city?

thanks,

beebe

"beebe" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles, and my first batch
> came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I could
> not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The dill
> I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish, etc.,
> and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available late
> summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).
>
> Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
> the ones you get in new york city?
>
> thanks,
>
> beebe

Yep go here;

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/5000/5342.html


Thanks for the link Sheldon.

Dimitri

Dimitri, thanks, but I have recipe's; my question has to do with what
adjustments to make based on my results so far....

brad

On Thu 17 Feb 2005 02:21:42p, beebe wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles, and my first batch
> came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I could
> not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The dill
> I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish, etc.,
> and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available late
> summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).
>
> Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
> the ones you get in new york city?
>
> thanks,
>
> beebe

What color and what texture are the Kosher dills you're trying to
duplicate?

"Half-Sours" are not nearly so salty, since they spend much less time in
the brine before eating. Many delis serve half-sours.

You didn't describe the process you used for making the pickles that you
found too salty. Knowing that would help in identifying the problem.

Wayne

"beebe" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Dimitri, thanks, but I have recipe's; my question has to do with what
> adjustments to make based on my results so far....
>
> brad

Please post the recipe and the amounts of the spices and whether you are
using fresh or dried.

Dimitri

beebe wrote:
> Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles,

You mean Kosher-Style... I seriously doubt your pickles will be kosher.


and my first batch
> came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I
could
> not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The
dill
> I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish,
etc.,
> and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available
late
> summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).
>
> Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
> the ones you get in new york city?

For true dill flavored pickles using FRESH dill is imperative (dried
dillweed, and other dried herbs, will not impart much flavor when
rehydrated in salt/vinegar-acid solution). To derive full value from
your dried herbs they should be rehydrated in plain *cold* water prior
to cooking... it's especially important to rehydrate oregano and basil
before adding to tomato sauce (I usually remember but sometimes I
don't-tremendous difference).

For sour pickles you need to add sour salt.

citric acid
[SIHT-rihk]
A white powder extracted from the juice of citrus and other acidic
fruits (such as lemons, limes, pineapples and gooseberries). It's also
produced by the FERMENTATION of glucose. Citric acid has a strong, tart
taste and is used as a flavoring agent for foods and beverages. Small
bottles of crystallized *sour salt* (also called citric salt ) are
often found in the kosher-foods section of supermarkets. Sour salt is
used to impart a tart flavor to traditional dishes such as BORSCHT.

=A9 Copyright Barron's Educational Services, Inc. 1995 based on THE FOOD
LOVER'S COMPANION, 2nd edition, by Sharon Tyler Herbst.=20
---

Sheldon wrote:
> beebe wrote:
>
>>Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles,
[snip]
>>Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
>>the ones you get in new york city?
>
>
> For true dill flavored pickles using FRESH dill is imperative (dried
> dillweed, and other dried herbs, will not impart much flavor when
> rehydrated in salt/vinegar-acid solution). To derive full value from
> your dried herbs they should be rehydrated in plain *cold* water prior
> to cooking... it's especially important to rehydrate oregano and basil
> before adding to tomato sauce (I usually remember but sometimes I
> don't-tremendous difference).
>
> For sour pickles you need to add sour salt.
>

[snipped irrelevant citric acid info]


"Kosher" dill pickles are fermented in a salt brine, so the sour comes
from lactic acid created during the fermentation. The longer they
ferment, the more sour they get. "Half-sour" pickles are only fermented
briefly. Kosher dills are usually flavored with fresh dill, garlic, and
a little bit of hot red pepper.

The fermented pickles are sometimes rinsed to remove some of the salt,
and then packed in jars with diluted vinegar and spices -- but I doubt
any self-respecting deli would serve vinegar pickles.

Dillseed makes an almost passable substitute for fresh dill when making
pickles. When you have access to fresh dill, you can freeze it for
later use.

Best regards,
Bob

ok, here's the recipe I used. It's modified, but based on Mimi
Sheraton's Garlic Dill Pickles that my mom forwarded to me.

I couldn't find fresh dill heads, so I used the dill as my prior
message notes. Also, I used a plastic gallon container that I got from
The Pickle Guys in nyc, and I poured boiling water over the cukes for
5mins, and then boiled the sal****er and poured that into the container
with ingredients. I had the container closd for 10 days between 60-68
F, shaking twice a day, tried one, and then added another tsp of dill
seed, waited another 5 days before putting it in the fridge.

They do seem to be getting better and better, although the salt taste
still overpowers the sour/dill. Maybe using sour salt will do the trick
next time!

kirby cuke's
7-8 cloves garlic, cracked
1 tsp coriander seed
1 tsp mustard seed
1 tsp peppercorns
4-5 dried hot red peppers
3 bay leaves
12-14 sprigs fresh dill
1 tsp dried dill seed
3/4 cup course kosher salt
3 quarts water

thanks, sheldon. If I use sour salt, does that replace the salt
ingredient entirely, or is it an addition to the recipe?

beebe wrote:
> thanks, sheldon. If I use sour salt, does that replace the salt
> ingredient entirely, or is it an addition to the recipe?
>


Sheldon doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to sour salt.
You will notice that the Food Lover's Companion excerpt he posted said
nothing about using citric acid in pickles.

Pickles are made with vinegar, or lactic acid (from fermentation), or
both. HTH :-)

Bob

yeah, you're right, bob. hmmm, now I'm thinking that I'll have to grow
some dill this year, and save it for the fall!

beebe wrote:

> Hi, I'm endeavoring to make Kosher Dill Pickles, and my first batch
> came out more salty than sour or "dilly;" Since it's February, I could
> not find the fresh dill heads, so I used dill and dill seeds. The dill
> I used, as the produce guy explained, is used for dressing fish, etc.,
> and not the stuff that is used for canning (which comes available late
> summer, which is way to hot a time of year for making pickles).
>
> Anyway, does anyone know how to get the pickles sour and "dilly" like
> the ones you get in new york city?
>

Where did you get those little cucumbers for pickling at this time of
year? The sour comes from the vinegar in the brine. Dried dill os a poor
substitute for fresh. Bottled dill weed is just the "leaves" of the dill
plant, not the flowering head that you need for dill pickles. Dill and
cucumbers usually come into season as the same time in late summer.

beebe > wrote:

> I couldn't find fresh dill heads, so I used the dill as my prior
> message notes. Also, I used a plastic gallon container that I got from
> The Pickle Guys in nyc, and I poured boiling water over the cukes for
> 5mins, and then boiled the sal****er and poured that into the container
> with ingredients. I had the container closd for 10 days between 60-68
> F, shaking twice a day, tried one, and then added another tsp of dill
> seed, waited another 5 days before putting it in the fridge.

Did you let the salt water cool before pouring it into the container?
Did you notice any sign of fermentation, like foaming or even
overflowing of the closed container?

Victor

I found the cucumbers at a local mexican produce store (in Concord,
California); that's why I've made the pickles at this time.

beebe writes:
>thanks, sheldon. If I use sour salt, does that replace the salt
>ingredient entirely, or is it an addition to the recipe?


Sour salt does not replace regular salt, it's very important to use the
full amount of salt called for in the recipe... doesn't take much sour
salt to add tartness, you'll need to experiment. And there are lots of
web sites for <fermented pickles>, read as much as you can.

beebe writes:

Mail me your correct email address, please.

Sheldon

no foaming, and the container did not seem to expand; actually, the
brine level went down about 3/4" over the 15 days.

oh, and I poured the sal****er in warm/hot (not boiling).

zxcvbob wrote:
> beebe wrote:
> > thanks, sheldon. If I use sour salt, does that replace the salt
> > ingredient entirely, or is it an addition to the recipe?
> >
>
>
> Sheldon doesn't know what he's talking about with regards to sour
salt.
> You will notice that the Food Lover's Companion excerpt he posted
said
> nothing about using citric acid in pickles.
>
> Pickles are made with vinegar, or lactic acid (from fermentation), or

> both. HTH :-)

I don't use any vinegar. Citric acid/sour salt is a part of many
kosher recipes, it's used to *boost* the sour flavor.... it's rarely
listed as an ingredient in any recipe... very few cooks have any in
their larder let alone have even heard of it, not readily available at
the typical stupidmarket either. either. I have a small jar, been in
my cupboard maybe 40 years, I rarely use any as I much prefer to add
sourness to dishes (say stuffed cabbage) with fresh lemon.

This is the pickle recipe I use as a guide, it doesn't call for sour
salt but if someone wants a more sour flavor (as requested by the OP)
than add 1/2 tsp to this recipe. Btw, there are as many pickle recipes
as there are people who make them... actually there are many more
recipes as most pickle makers make many different versions

KOSHER GARLIC DILL PICKLES
Source: My Mother's Kitchen: Recipes & Reminiscences by Mimi Sheraton
(Harper Collins)

Yield: 24 to 30 pickles

24 to 30 small, very firm Kirby cucumbers, free of bruises or brown
spots
7 or 8 cloves garlic, unpeeled but lightly crushed
1 teaspoon coriander seeds
1 teaspoon mustard seeds
1 teaspoon black peppercorns
4 or 5 small, dried hot red peppers, or 1/2 teaspoon crushed, dried hot
red Italian peppers
3 bay leaves
12 to 14 sprigs dill, preferably with seed heads, well washed
1 teaspoon dried dill seeds, if the dill has no seed heads
Heel of sour rye bread with caraway seeds
3 quarts of water, or as needed
3/4 cup kosher (coarse) salt, or as needed
INTRO: "The following is a basic recipe that may be altered to suit
varying tastes, and which should be adjusted slightly to the number of
pickles being done in a particular size and shape of crock or jar. (I
use a crock with a 5-quart capacity, which takes from 2 1/2 to 3 1/2
pounds of cucumbers, depending on size.) It is essential that the
pickles be covered by the brine.

To accomplish this, the cucumbers to be pickled should be stood on end
close together on the bottom of the crock, so they hold each other
firmly in place. Even so, they may loosen and float to the top. To
avoid that, place a plate or disk of wood directly in the brine, over
the pickles, and weight them down, either with a clean stone or a
10-ounce glass two-thirds full of water. If it is necessary to skim the
gray film off the brine's surface, replace the weight each time it is
removed. The pickling receptacle should have a wide mouth so a salad or
bread-and-butter plate, or similar sized disk of wood, can fit inside
it. It should be made of ceramic, glass, or wood, not plastic or metal.
Unwaxed Kirby cucumbers are the only type that will work for pickling.

Because of the yeast it contains, the crust of rye bread will result in
a mildly fermented brine, similar to the Russian and Polish Kvass, and
will give a subtle, mildly fermented flavor to the pickles.

In making these pickles, it is important that you do not used mixed
pickling spices, because the cinnamon, cloves, and other sweetly
aromatic spices in them will detract from the pickles' flavor. Also, it
is important that you do not use iodized salt in the process, as that
will leave a bitter aftertaste; if you cannot get kosher (coarse) salt,
use uniodized table salt, substituting about two-thirds of the amount
called for. These are fresh brine pickles, and no vinegar should be
used.

DIRECTIONS: Thoroughly wash a wide-mouthed bean pot, crock or glass
jar. Carefully wash the cucumbers, rubbing gently with a sponge, a soft
brush, or your hands to reomoves all traces of sand. Discard any with
bruises. Stand the cucumbers on end around the sides and across the
bottom of the crock or jar, so that they hold each other in place but
not so tightly that they will crush each other. A second upright layer
can be added if the jar is tall enough. To the crock add the garlic,
all herbs and spices, and bread.

Mix 3 quarts of water with 3/4 cup coarse salt and stir until the salt
dissolves. Pour the salt water into the crock to completely cover the
pickles. The brine should overflow so you can be sure no air pockets
remain. If it does not, place the crock under the faucet and let water
run in slowly until it does overflow. You may wash out a few spices in
the process, but that will not be critical.

Place the jar on a stain-proof surface in a cool place, but not in the
refrigerator. A temperature between 65 and 70 degrees is just right.
Place a dish or wooden disk directly over the pickles, in the brine,
and top with a weight as described [above]. Cover the crock loosely
with a dish towl or a double thickness of cheesecloth.

Check the pickles every 24 hours and remove any white or gray foam that
has risen to the surface; this will prevent rotting. Shake the crock
slightly to distribute spices and be sure to re-weight. Add salt or
other seasonings if the brine seems bland. The pickles will be half
sour in about 4 to 5 days, and very sour in about 10 days. When they
have reached the degree of sourness you like, they can be stored in the
refrigerator in tightly closed jars. Pour some strained brine into the
jars to cover the pickles. They will keep for about 5 weeks, assuming
they have not been eaten long before.

PICKLED GREEN TOMATOES:

Small, hard, unripe green tomatoes can be prepared exactly as the
cucumbers above. Place them in the crock, bottoms down. If the tomatoes
are thick-skinned, it may be necessary to prick their surface in
several places with a fine needle, so the solution will penetrate. It
is very important that the tomatoes be small (about the size of Italian
plum tomatoes), very hard and dark bright green."

---

beebe > wrote:

> no foaming, and the container did not seem to expand; actually, the
> brine level went down about 3/4" over the 15 days.

Sounds like no fermentation happened and no lactic acid was formed, so
you effectively ended up just brining your cucumbers. Nothing wrong
with this, but the taste is, of course, different.

I've never made Mimi Sheraton's recipe, but chances are good it works.
Just follow its instructions to the letter. For example, a recipe of
hers I found on the Net doesn't call for the water to be heated. Many
recipes do call for this, but only in order to be able to dissolve salt
more easily and quickly. The water is then usually supposed to be
cooled down to room temperature, though. Here are three tried-and-true
recipes I posted before. Perhaps you'll have more success with them.
Notice that the 'accelerated' version is actually just quick brining,
using boiling water, not fermenting, so you might not want to use it.

Here is a recipe from The 2nd Ave Deli Cookbook. The pickles served at
the Deli are not the very best I have ever tasted but still very good.

Pickles

you can pickle firm green tomatoes or beets the same way.

20 small Kirby cucumbers (choose firm, fresh, unwaxed, bumpy-textured
cucumbers that are close to equal in size)
3/4 cup kosher salt
15 whole garlic cloves, unpeeled
1 bunch of fresh dill
2 tablespoons pickling spices or:
1 1/2 teaspoons mustard seeds
1 1/2 teaspoons whole black peppercorns
1 teaspoon coriander seeds
1 teaspoon dill seeds
6 bay leaves
1 hot dried red pepper

1. Scrub the cucumbers with a brush in clear water.
2. Pour 1 gallon of water into a large stockpot, add salt, and bring to
a boil. Turn off heat, and allow water to return to room temperature.
While water is cooling, wrap unpeeled garlic cloves in a cloth napkin,
and crush them lightly with the back of a large knife.
3. Pack the cucumber tightly into wide-mouthed jars, add all other
ingredients (distribute equally), and pour salted water over them. The
cucumbers must be covered completely. Put the lid on, shake jar to
distribute spices evenly, and store in a cool place (do not
refrigerate). Open the jar once a day to skim off foam. In 4 days, the
pickles will be half-sour, and can keep, refrigerated, for several
weeks. For sour pickles, do not refrigerate until 6 days have passed.

____
And here are a couple of recipes I use myself. One is for sour and
half-sour pickles as traditionally made in Russia. These are what
all those deli pickles are striving to be. The recipe calls for a lot
of cucumbers, but you can scale it. The other recipe is an accelerated
version, if you want to make them really fast.

Traditionally-made sour and half-sour pickles

Note: You get the best results by selecting very fresh cucumbers,
picked on the same day, if possible, or, failing that, the day before.
They shouldn't be kept dry for any length of time - put them in iced
water at once. That way, cucumbers won't be hollow. Also,
traditionally, cucumbers are pickled in oak barrels which, together with
various leaves and sometimes even tree bark, add some tannin to the
brine, making the cucumbers crisp and crunchy.

10 kg (22 pounds) cucumbers, 4-7 cm (1.6-2.8 inches) in length, cleaned
and washed
2 heads of garlic, divided in cloves and peeled, OR some shavings of
horseradish root
currant leaves, if you can find them
oak leaves, ditto
cherry leaves, ditto
(Some people add a couple of horseradish leaves, too)
fresh dill
coarse (kosher) non-iodised salt
2 teaspoons sugar

Find a suitable receptacle, such as a non-reactive bucket, a wooden
barrel or cask, or large glass jars. Layer the leaves on the bottom,
then the cucumbers in the upright position, packing them tightly, then
add some garlic cloves. Then put on the layer of leaves again, then
cucumbers, garlic and dill and repeat all of the above until the
receptacle is filled. The last layer should be leaves and dill.

Dissolve kosher salt in water (1 tablespoon per 1 litre (1.1 quart)),
and fill the receptacle to the top. It is easier to dissolve salt in
hot water, which has to be cooled afterwards. Cover the receptacle with
a wooden cover or with a plate, put a clean cloth on top and weigh it
down with a heavy stone or something. Keep in a cool place.

The cucumbers will be ready in 1-2 weeks and will keep for a long
time. After one week, they will be so-called malosolnyye (lightly
salted or half-sour) pickles - which many people love. After a month,
they will be completely salted (full sour). From time to time, check
the wooden cover or plate and the cloth for signs of mould and clean and
wash them accordingly.

In a town dwelling, it would perhaps be better to use sealed glass jars
of 1-2 quart capacity. In this case, pack the ingredients tightly in
jars, fill with the salty brine and seal. Put in a cool place for a
week. During this time the brine will ferment and some of it may
escape. This is not a problem - just pour off a bit of the brine, wipe
the jar dry and seal again. Afterwards just keep the jars in a cool
place.


Fast version

2 kg (4.4 pounds) small young cucumbers
optionally, 3-4 currant leaves, or 3-4 oak leaves, or both (then fewer
of each kind)
optionally, a couple of horseradish or cherry leaves
optionally, some freshly grated horseradish root
a large sprig or two of dill
7-8 garlic cloves
salt (80-120 g (2.8-4.2 oz) per 2 litres (2.1 quarts) of water)

Put cucumbers in ice-cold water and refrigerate for a few hours (this
step is optional).
Cut off both ends of cucumbers and place them into a non-reactive
container, layering the leaves and horseradish (if used), as well as the
dill and the garlic in between.
Dissolve the salt in boiling water and taste it to make sure it's
pleasantly salty. Pour the hot solution over cucumbers, making sure
they are fully covered (if they float, weigh them down with something).
The cucumbers will be ready to eat in 4 hours to 2 days, depending on
your preference. Once you deem them to be ready, refrigerate them to
slow down any further development. They will stay at that stage for a
week or so.

Victor

Victor Sack wrote:
> beebe > wrote:
>
> > no foaming, and the container did not seem to expand; actually, the
> > brine level went down about 3/4" over the 15 days.
>
> Sounds like no fermentation happened and no lactic acid was formed,
so
> you effectively ended up just brining your cucumbers. Nothing wrong
> with this, but the taste is, of course, different.
>
> I've never made Mimi Sheraton's recipe, but chances are good it
works.

If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full sour*
pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished out of a huge
wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan bright green crisp oblong sour
behemoth, so sour it'll keep your lips puckered all the rest of the day
and then some... it will have been soured with the addition of sour
salt, and NEVER a drop of vinegar. I learned to make sour pickles in
wooden barrels at a real NYC kosher deli when I was four (4) years
old... I was also in charge of the prepared deli mustard... I can
prepare mustard toots faster than you can count pennies to pay for
them.

beebe wrote:
> oh, and I poured the sal****er in warm/hot (not boiling).

With fermented pickles the brine should NOT be heated... but neither
should it be prepared with chlorinated water.

On 20 Feb 2005 17:05:22 -0800, "Sheldon" >
wrote:

>a gargantuan bright green crisp oblong

Howdy,

In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly
not crisp...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
>
> Howdy,
>
> In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly
> not crisp...

With "Howdy" you're obviously a hillybilly redneck, whose experience is
in wiping his butt with dry leaves and ****ing his grams.

On 20 Feb 2005 18:23:20 -0800, "Sheldon" >
wrote:

>
>Kenneth wrote:
>>
>> Howdy,
>>
>> In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly
>> not crisp...
>
>With "Howdy" you're obviously a hillybilly redneck, whose experience is
>in wiping his butt with dry leaves and ****ing his grams.

Indeed... I grew up in the backwoods of Brooklyn.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sheldon! I want my mom to be able to read this! (even though
brooklyn-ites were thought of as New York's hillbillies...)
Sheldon wrote:
> Kenneth wrote:
> >
> > Howdy,
> >
> > In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly
> > not crisp...
>
> With "Howdy" you're obviously a hillybilly redneck, whose experience
is
> in wiping his butt with dry leaves and ****ing his grams.

well, I don't have the fancy-shmancy crock like the recipe, so I'm
using the plastic wide-mouth container from Pickle Guys, and I used the
two-step hot water/brine process (non-chlorinated). So, I'll have to
stick with the container for now, but I can alter the water/brine
process and some sour salt (or lemon?). I'm thinking that I'll use the
initial boiling water bath, followed by room-temp brine. Actually, the
current batch is getting quite good

Sheldon wrote:
> beebe wrote:
> > oh, and I poured the sal****er in warm/hot (not boiling).
>
> With fermented pickles the brine should NOT be heated... but neither
> should it be prepared with chlorinated water.

beebe wrote:
> well, I don't have the fancy-shmancy crock like the recipe, so I'm
> using the plastic wide-mouth container from Pickle Guys,

Plastic is passable but glass is far better... I prefer 1 gallon pickle
jars with screw on caps... so begin saving glass jars for next time.
With the metal screw on lids wrap with 2-3 layers of plastic wrap...
only place the caps on after initial fermentation and before
refrigeration but screw on *loosely* so that gasses can escape. Crocks
are good too but they are kind of messy for hime pickling. I used to
do a lot of pickling, but of late I only prepare a couple of gallons...
pickles are addictive and I don't need all that salt.


and I used the
> two-step hot water/brine process (non-chlorinated). So, I'll have to
> stick with the container for now, but I can alter the water/brine
> process and some sour salt (or lemon?). I'm thinking that I'll use
the
> initial boiling water bath, followed by room-temp brine. Actually,
the
> current batch is getting quite good
> > should it be prepared with chlorinated water.

I don't boil anything, never had a problem... just wash things well...
fermented pickles really don't need sterile. in fact "sterile
fermentation" is an oxymoron.

Wayne writes:
>Half-Sours" are not nearly so salty, since they spend much less time
in
the brine before eating.

Not true. Half sours are just as salty as full sours, just not as
fermented, so they are typically more crisp (fermented is just a
fancy-neato word for rotted). Cukes will absorb about as much salt
from a particular strength brine within about the first 48 hours as
they will regardless how much longer they are kept in that brine....
you can leave then in that brine for a year and they won't become any
more salty, but they may become more sour, but at the expense of
becoming more limp.... and as they become more limp they will over time
actually become less salty. Otherwise instead of calling them half
sours they'd be called half salties. Anyone who's ever made a chazzer
of themselves by over eating from the bowl of half sours at a kosher
deli can attest to how salty they are... and that's why they're there,
for the same reason salty pretzels are placed at the bar.

On 23 Feb 2005 15:01:30 -0800, "Sheldon" >
wrote:

<<SNIP>>

>Not true. Half sours are just as salty as full sours, just not as
>fermented, so they are typically more crisp (fermented is just a
>fancy-neato word for rotted).

But earlier, you wrote:

If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full
sour* pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished
out of a huge wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan
bright green crisp oblong sour

and I responded:

>> In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly
>> not crisp...

Which, of course, you dismissed.

But, it would appear that now you agree that the more sour,
the less crisp.

All that remains is for me to ask:

Will you agree that full sours are darker in color?

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed 23 Feb 2005 05:02:02p, Kenneth wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On 23 Feb 2005 15:01:30 -0800, "Sheldon" >
> wrote:
>
> <<SNIP>>
>
>>Not true. Half sours are just as salty as full sours, just not as
>>fermented, so they are typically more crisp (fermented is just a
>>fancy-neato word for rotted).
>
> But earlier, you wrote:
>
> If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full
> sour* pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished
> out of a huge wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan
> bright green crisp oblong sour
>
> and I responded:
>
>>> In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly not
>>> crisp...
>
> Which, of course, you dismissed.
>
> But, it would appear that now you agree that the more sour,
> the less crisp.
>
> All that remains is for me to ask:
>
> Will you agree that full sours are darker in color?
>
> All the best,
>

Well, I didn't write this, but full-sours usually have a dark olive skin
with a semi-transluscent flesh, are not very crisp, definitely more sour
and also taste saltier. Half-sours are bright green with flesh that looks
almost like a fresh cucumber, are crisp, almost not sour at all, and have a
much milder degree of saltiness. I've eaten both that were commercially
made, I've made both at home, and I can surely tell the difference.

Wayne

What makes Kosher pickles ?

When they're picklets,
you snip off a tiny bit of the end..... ;o)


<rj>

On 24 Feb 2005 02:15:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
> wrote:

>On Wed 23 Feb 2005 05:02:02p, Kenneth wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> On 23 Feb 2005 15:01:30 -0800, "Sheldon" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> <<SNIP>>
>>
>>>Not true. Half sours are just as salty as full sours, just not as
>>>fermented, so they are typically more crisp (fermented is just a
>>>fancy-neato word for rotted).
>>
>> But earlier, you wrote:
>>
>> If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full
>> sour* pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished
>> out of a huge wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan
>> bright green crisp oblong sour
>>
>> and I responded:
>>
>>>> In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly not
>>>> crisp...
>>
>> Which, of course, you dismissed.
>>
>> But, it would appear that now you agree that the more sour,
>> the less crisp.
>>
>> All that remains is for me to ask:
>>
>> Will you agree that full sours are darker in color?
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>
>Well, I didn't write this, but full-sours usually have a dark olive skin
>with a semi-transluscent flesh, are not very crisp, definitely more sour
>and also taste saltier. Half-sours are bright green with flesh that looks
>almost like a fresh cucumber, are crisp, almost not sour at all, and have a
>much milder degree of saltiness. I've eaten both that were commercially
>made, I've made both at home, and I can surely tell the difference.
>
>Wayne

Hi Wayne,

You and I agree on this...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Wed 23 Feb 2005 06:20:23p, Kenneth wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> On 24 Feb 2005 02:15:20 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
> > wrote:
>
>>On Wed 23 Feb 2005 05:02:02p, Kenneth wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>
>>> On 23 Feb 2005 15:01:30 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:
>>>
>>> <<SNIP>>
>>>
>>>>Not true. Half sours are just as salty as full sours, just not as
>>>>fermented, so they are typically more crisp (fermented is just a
>>>>fancy-neato word for rotted).
>>>
>>> But earlier, you wrote:
>>>
>>> If ever you ask at a NYC kosher appetizing store for a *full
>>> sour* pickle you will be handed, and by handed I mean fished
>>> out of a huge wooden barrel by bare hand, a gargantuan
>>> bright green crisp oblong sour
>>>
>>> and I responded:
>>>
>>>>> In my experience full sours are dark green and are certainly not
>>>>> crisp...
>>>
>>> Which, of course, you dismissed.
>>>
>>> But, it would appear that now you agree that the more sour, the less
>>> crisp.
>>>
>>> All that remains is for me to ask:
>>>
>>> Will you agree that full sours are darker in color?
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>
>>Well, I didn't write this, but full-sours usually have a dark olive skin
>>with a semi-transluscent flesh, are not very crisp, definitely more sour
>>and also taste saltier. Half-sours are bright green with flesh that
>>looks almost like a fresh cucumber, are crisp, almost not sour at all,
>>and have a much milder degree of saltiness. I've eaten both that were
>>commercially made, I've made both at home, and I can surely tell the
>>difference.
>>
>>Wayne
>
> Hi Wayne,
>
> You and I agree on this...
>
> All the best,
>

Kenneth, you have to remember that Sheldon is an idiot and knows not
whereof he speaks. I haven't actually seen one of his posts in well over
two years thanks to my score file, although I do see snippets that are
quoted in other posts.

Cheers!
Wayne

Wayne Boatwright >, if that's their real name, wrote:

>Well, I didn't write this, but full-sours usually have a dark olive skin
>with a semi-transluscent flesh, are not very crisp, definitely more sour
>and also taste saltier. Half-sours are bright green with flesh that looks
>almost like a fresh cucumber, are crisp, almost not sour at all, and have a
>much milder degree of saltiness. I've eaten both that were commercially
>made, I've made both at home, and I can surely tell the difference.

I hate regular dill pickles. Love Claussen's, though. And I make some
Claussenesque pickles that are very good, too. I didn't learn until
recently that they had no business being kept on a shelf. No one has died,
but future batches will be stored cold.

Carol
--
"Years ago my mother used to say to me... She'd say,
'In this world Elwood, you must be oh-so smart or oh-so pleasant.'
Well, for years I was smart.... I recommend pleasant. You may quote me."

*James Stewart* in the 1950 movie, _Harvey_

in my family, a Claussen, or Claussen-like pickle = a gentile
pickle...and, hence, ng

in my family, a Claussen, or Claussen-like pickle = a gentile
pickle...and, hence, ng (but I still eat'm when others leave'm!)