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Alex Rast wrote:
>
> at Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:03:24 GMT in >,
> (Kate Connally) wrote :
>
> >Well, my birthday was this past Sat. and I cooked myself
> >a birthday dinner and invited a couple of friends and
> >relatives. The theme was Persian/Middle Eastern.
> >
> >First off the green lentil dip was completely
> >blah....
>
> Persian food generally isn't like the typical Mediterranean cuisine - an
> explosion of flavours.

I didn't mean "blah" in the sense of mild or "non-spicy".
I meant "blah" in the sense of "it just didn't have a very
interesting flavor". In spite of all the onion and garlic
and orange and lime juice and angelica, it pretty much tasted
like plain lentil puree which is not a flavor I find that
interesting.

> It's generally subtle and mild - some people might
> consider that "blah".

No, I don't mind subtle and mild if the base flavor is
a good one. But of the Persian dishes I've made I wouldn't
call any of them subtle and mild except for the lentil
dip and it was way too subtle and mild. :-)

> If you were expecting Middle Eastern food as in
> Mediterranean,

I don't know what you mean by Mediterranean but if you
mean Italian, Greek, Spanish, etc. I'm thinking more of
Middle Eastern. In my researches the same or similar
dishes appear in many of the Middle Eastern countries
From Turkey to Egypt and over to Iran and Iraq and
Afghanistan. Many of the basic dishes are very similar.

> then I could understand how you might have been
> disappointed. The dip looks fine to me. Did you use lime juice?

The recipe called for Seville orange juice or substituting
regular orange juice and some lime juice. I used the
substitute.

> Many
> Persian recipes call for it and without it the dish will always seem not-
> quite-right.

Actually many Persian recipes I've seen call for dried limes but
say you can substitute lime juice.

> >On to the main course. I was really looking forward
> >to the Fesenjan. ...The trouble with the recipe is that
> >you can't really taste the pomegranate juice! ...
>
> In Persian stores they generally have concentrated pomegranate syrup, which
> is probably what the recipe really needs. Is this what you got?

No. I wanted to use fresh pomegranate juice. Yes one of the
recipes called for the pomegranate molasses but I went by the
other one that called for the juice. I also added extra juice
but you still couldn't taste the pom. flavor. I have made this
before with a different recipe and used juice and it was fine.

> U.S.
> pomegranates are also often pretty insipid, usually because they're
> harvested long before they're ripe. So if you were using a U.S.
> pomegranate, it might not have worked out very well. The good domestic
> pomegranates are small (baseball-sized) and are very clearly hexagonal in
> shape, looking from the top (blossom end), as opposed to the big,
> spherical, softball-sized ones.

I frequently use pomegranates and I think the ones I get
here are perfectly fine as to flavor.

> >The sour cherry rice was also disappointing. I followed
> >the recipe pretty closely and even tracked down the sour
> >cherry preserves that are called for so it would be very
> >authentic. But I didn't like it. There is way too much
> >preserves for the amount of rice so the dish was too sweet.
>
> The recipe you have lists 3 cups sour cherry (Morello) preserves. For the 3
> cups rice, that does sound like overkill. In addition, did you get
> specifically Persian sour cherry preserve or did you use domestic Morello
> cherry preserves?

Well, I couldn't get Persian ones but I got Turkish preserves.
The are morello cherries and that's the kind of cherries that
are used in Persian preserves. I'm sure they were very similar
to the Persian preserves. And the other recipe called for
*32 oz.* of preserved for 4 cups of rice. Which is 3 times
the amount of preserves for just slightly more rice!!! I decided
against going with that recipe as far as quantities went. I used
2 5-oz. jars which looked to contain between 1 1/4 cups and 1 1/2
cups each.

> >Also, and this was totally my fault, the rice was over-cooked
> >and that didn't help. ...
>
> I have to ask, did you use the real-deal Basmati? It's essential that this
> be the type of rice used - all Persian recipes pretty much rely on the
> particular taste and texture of Basmati for proper effect. Was it
> overcooked as in dry? Or as in soggy and sticky?

Soggy and sticky. And no, I didn't use basmati. I used Thai
jasmine rice. There's no reason that shouldn't work perfectly
well. It's very similar to basmati.

> > Besides being too
> >sweet there was a funny funky flavor to the rice. It called
> >for saffron and I just threw a bunch in. I'm wondering if
> >that was the saffron flavor. I've never been able to taste
> >saffron in the quantities that are normally used....
>
> Saffron's taste I would say is strongly watery. I know that must sound
> strange, but it literally tastes like water, hyper-concentrated. Some
> people call this taste "musty". I do know that it's a taste you either love
> or hate. By "a bunch", how much do you think it was? 1 oz? It's not
> necessary to resort to overkill.

I really don't know how much. I didn't measure it. And it
definitely was a musty taste so I don't think I'm going to
bother with saffron anymore. If it need the color I'll use
safflower or turmeric (if appropriate). No sense paying a
small fortune for something I don't even like and usually
can't even taste.

> >Dessert was much better. The semolina cake was good but I
> >wasn't thrilled with the texture. The cake is bake then cut
> >into diamond shapes and soaked with a lemony sugar syrup.
> >It tastes great, but I wondered if the semolina I used was
> >slightly too coarse....
>
> Persian semolina is quite fine - generally much finer than the semolina you
> find in U.S. stores. Try looking for patent durum flour, which is very fine
> indeed - this may produce a better texture.

Okay.

Kate

--
Kate Connally
“If I were as old as I feel, I’d be dead already.”
Goldfish: “The wholesome snack that smiles back,
Until you bite their heads off.”
What if the hokey pokey really *is* what it's all about?

at Fri, 25 Feb 2005 16:56:40 GMT in >,
(Kate Connally) wrote :

>Alex Rast wrote:
>>
>> at Wed, 23 Feb 2005 17:03:24 GMT in >,
>> (Kate Connally) wrote :
>>
>> >Well, my birthday was this past Sat. and I cooked myself
>> >a birthday dinner and invited a couple of friends and
>> >relatives. The theme was Persian/Middle Eastern.
>> >
>> >First off the green lentil dip was completely
>> >blah....
>>
>> Persian food generally isn't like the typical Mediterranean cuisine -
>> an explosion of flavours.
>
>I didn't mean "blah" in the sense of mild or "non-spicy".
>I meant "blah" in the sense of "it just didn't have a very
>interesting flavor". In spite of all the onion and garlic
>and orange and lime juice and angelica, it pretty much tasted
>like plain lentil puree which is not a flavor I find that
>interesting.

Yeah, I'd have expected it to taste mostly of lentil puree. I wasn't really
meaning mild or non-spicy either, or to be exact, that wasn't all I was
thinking about. What I meant is that the flavours don't really jump out at
you and that ingredients other than the base ingredient often aren't going
to be noticeable as a distinct flavour in the finished dish. It's a fine
line between what I'm trying to say and "mild and non-spicy" - I'm doing a
bad job trying to convey it. Hopefully what I've just said makes some
sense.

>>> It's generally subtle and mild - some people might
>> consider that "blah".
>
>No, I don't mind subtle and mild if the base flavor is
>a good one.

I think I'd have stayed away from the lentil puree if I didn't find the
taste of lentils that interesting. That's kind of what I was trying to hint
at in saying it's subtle and mild - that you might add a bunch of stuff but
it's not going to have a giant impact.

> But of the Persian dishes I've made I wouldn't
>call any of them subtle and mild except for the lentil
>dip and it was way too subtle and mild. :-)
>
>> If you were expecting Middle Eastern food as in
>> Mediterranean,
>
>I don't know what you mean by Mediterranean but if you
>mean Italian, Greek, Spanish, etc. I'm thinking more of
>Middle Eastern. In my researches the same or similar
>dishes appear in many of the Middle Eastern countries
>From Turkey to Egypt and over to Iran and Iraq and
>Afghanistan. Many of the basic dishes are very similar.

Italian, Greek, etc. is one type of Mediterranean, but what I meant was
Mediterranean Middle Eastern - e.g. Turkey and Egypt. There are a few
common dishes across the lands once under the Caliphate but at least from
my POV e.g. Turkish food is VERY different from Persian. The countries that
border on the Mediterranean in the Middle East lean towards more assertive
flavourings. As you proceed from west to east, there's a grading of
cuisines - so the change isn't abrupt, but by the time you reach Iran the
cuisine is markedly different from that of Turkey or Egypt. Afghan cuisine
again I find to be very different from Persian. Oddly, or perhaps not so
oddly considering the origins of the population, Afghan cuisine I think is
a little more similar to Turkish cuisine than Persian is.

>> then I could understand how you might have been
>> disappointed. The dip looks fine to me. Did you use lime juice?
>
>The recipe called for Seville orange juice or substituting
>regular orange juice and some lime juice. I used the
>substitute.

Which should have been OK.

>
>> Many
>> Persian recipes call for it and without it the dish will always seem
>> not- quite-right.
>
>Actually many Persian recipes I've seen call for dried limes but
>say you can substitute lime juice.

There's another group of recipes that call for dried limes and you can
substitute lime juice if you want, or in fact simply a fresh lime, but the
flavour will be stronger and more assertive. Dried limes are a good example
of a subtle flavouring.

>> >On to the main course. I was really looking forward
>> >to the Fesenjan. ...The trouble with the recipe is that
>> >you can't really taste the pomegranate juice! ...
>>
>> In Persian stores they generally have concentrated pomegranate syrup,
>> which is probably what the recipe really needs. Is this what you got?
>
>No. I wanted to use fresh pomegranate juice. Yes one of the
>recipes called for the pomegranate molasses but I went by the
>other one that called for the juice. I also added extra juice
>but you still couldn't taste the pom. flavor. I have made this
>before with a different recipe and used juice and it was fine.

I suppose this is one reason why we need to have multiple recipes for one
dish rather than having a Canonical Recipe for each dish. Every person's
taste is different so better to choose the recipe that works for you. Was
there a particular reason you decided to try the different recipe rather
than the one you used before that was OK?

>
>> U.S.
>> pomegranates are also often pretty insipid...
>
>I frequently use pomegranates and I think the ones I get
>here are perfectly fine as to flavor.

Do you usually get the small, hexagonal ones with the very deep red seeds?
If so, then they're probably OK.

>> >Also, and this was totally my fault, the rice was over-cooked
>> >and that didn't help. ...
>>
>> I have to ask, did you use the real-deal Basmati? It's essential that
>> this be the type of rice used...

>Soggy and sticky.

Probably then not so much overcooked as using too much water.
Unfortunately, I'm not the expert on rice cooking. But I've noticed that
real Basmati is much more consistent in its cooking properties, when the
desired effect is fluffy rice, than other rices.

> And no, I didn't use basmati. I used Thai
>jasmine rice. There's no reason that shouldn't work perfectly
>well. It's very similar to basmati.

In the sense of being like a typical long-grain rice jasmine might have
been OK but really basmati is necessary for the right Persian flavour. My
experience, too, is that no other rice cooks like it in terms of the
fluffy, entirely-separate grain consistency. This is one of those
ingredients for which there just isn't really a good substitute in spite of
the fact that there are several similar products. These days, basmati isn't
outrageously expensive. I can pick up a 10-lb sack from my local Persian
store for $14.00.

>> > Besides being too
>> >sweet there was a funny funky flavor to the rice. ...
>>
>> Saffron's taste I would say is strongly watery.... Some
>> people call this taste "musty".
>
>I really don't know how much. I didn't measure it. And it
>definitely was a musty taste so I don't think I'm going to
>bother with saffron anymore. If it need the color I'll use
>safflower or turmeric (if appropriate). No sense paying a
>small fortune for something I don't even like and usually
>can't even taste.

No kidding. I remember one friend of mine who, upon taking his first taste
of a lentil soup flavoured with saffron, instantly gagged. I'd never
thought before that that some people would really be turned off by its
flavour - after all, it's pretty mild to begin with (as you noted). After
that I started to notice more that there are a group who just really hate
the taste. It may be one of those things like cilantro or green peppers,
that contain a compound that some people taste one way, and others a
different way, which really is unpleasant.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

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