I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 12:59:06 +0100, Ellie C >
wrote:

>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

Some places, when they grind beef for hamburger, toss ice cubes into
the grinder. It chills the meat....also adds wieght to the ground
meat....ice is very inexpensive.

Ellie C wrote:
> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
ground
> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount
of
> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
usual
> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of
events: I
> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water,
enough
> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
mean
> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

I'd say that water is being added to the ground meat, either
deliberately or as a "side effect" of its handling. I'd urge you to
find another source for your meat, esp for ground meat.

I had an experience similar to yours a number of years ago. The ground
beef bought at a nation-wide chain store oozed a lot of water when
fried...and what was oozing was clearly water and not fat. Not at all
natural and I never again bought meat (or much of anything else) from
that chain.

Mac

Ellie C wrote:
> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
ground
> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount
of
> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
usual
> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of
events: I
> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water,
enough
> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
mean
> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It's possible water was added but not highly unlikely with plain ground
meat, markets do not want to risk stiff fines for mislabeling. However
with sausage ice is often added, but then the package would say "Water
Added" and what percent. Animal flesh is normally about 75% water, so
if cooked at too low a temperature water will exude and need to
evaporate before the meat can brown... you need to increase the cooking
temperature so that the water naturally contained in the meat
evaporates more quickly than it exudes. You are very likely
overloading your pan... try browning only a samll amount of meat at a
time. Of course you shouldn't be using stupidmarket ground meat in the
first place, get yourself a meat grinder, then you'll know what and who
is in your meat.

wrote:

> Ellie C wrote:
>
>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
>
> ground
>
>>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount
>
> of
>
>>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
>
> usual
>
>>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of
>
> events: I
>
>>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water,
>
> enough
>
>>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
>
> mean
>
>>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>
>
> I'd say that water is being added to the ground meat, either
> deliberately or as a "side effect" of its handling. I'd urge you to
> find another source for your meat, esp for ground meat.
>
> I had an experience similar to yours a number of years ago. The ground
> beef bought at a nation-wide chain store oozed a lot of water when
> fried...and what was oozing was clearly water and not fat. Not at all
> natural and I never again bought meat (or much of anything else) from
> that chain.
>
> Mac
>
I'll have to try some hamburger from the other store in town, see if
it's as bad. I have to say that all the ground beef I find here (in
France) is a bit strange. But then so is the beef before it's ground. If
I ever get back to the US, first thing I'm going to have is a steak that
tastes good! The best steaks I've had here are worse than the worst
steaks I've ever had in the US. French beef is horrible. Ditto French
pork. French chicken, on the other hand, is heaven compared to US chicken.

Sheldon wrote:

> Ellie C wrote:
>
>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
>
> ground
>
>>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount
>
> of
>
>>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
>
> usual
>
>>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of
>
> events: I
>
>>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water,
>
> enough
>
>>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
>
> mean
>
>>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>
>
> It's possible water was added but not highly unlikely with plain ground
> meat, markets do not want to risk stiff fines for mislabeling. However
> with sausage ice is often added, but then the package would say "Water
> Added" and what percent. Animal flesh is normally about 75% water, so
> if cooked at too low a temperature water will exude and need to
> evaporate before the meat can brown... you need to increase the cooking
> temperature so that the water naturally contained in the meat
> evaporates more quickly than it exudes. You are very likely
> overloading your pan... try browning only a samll amount of meat at a
> time. Of course you shouldn't be using stupidmarket ground meat in the
> first place, get yourself a meat grinder, then you'll know what and who
> is in your meat.
>

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I should grind my own beef, but it's not
something I'm really interested in doing. Life is too short to do
everything perfectly.;-) I do have a meat grinder but it's a hand
operated one and I used it once. That was enough. I know, I can hear you
saying something like "Well get an electric one." Sure. Except that if I
turn on the electric oven or a hairdryer I have to be sure to turn off
the electric heater in at least one room or I'll blow the circuit
breakers and have to reset that damned clock radio for the 14th time
that day. So another electrical appliance is not an option; it would
just be another annoyance. Besides they cost about 100 euros and it's
hard to think of spending that mich on something that will only make me
spend more time doing something I'm not interested in doing.

I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on the
highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible,
though. Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit of
it first and then adding more.

Ellie C wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
>
> > Ellie C wrote:
> >
> >>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
hamburger
> >>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
> >
> > ground
> >
> >>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount
> >
> > of
> >
> >>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
> >
> > usual
> >
> >>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of
> >
> > events: I
> >
> >>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a
few
> >>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water,
> >
> > enough
> >
> >>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
> >
> > mean
> >
> >>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> >>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> >>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
> >
> >
> > It's possible water was added but not highly unlikely with plain
ground
> > meat, markets do not want to risk stiff fines for mislabeling.
However
> > with sausage ice is often added, but then the package would say
"Water
> > Added" and what percent. Animal flesh is normally about 75% water,
so
> > if cooked at too low a temperature water will exude and need to
> > evaporate before the meat can brown... you need to increase the
cooking
> > temperature so that the water naturally contained in the meat
> > evaporates more quickly than it exudes. You are very likely
> > overloading your pan... try browning only a samll amount of meat at
a
> > time. Of course you shouldn't be using stupidmarket ground meat in
the
> > first place, get yourself a meat grinder, then you'll know what and
who
> > is in your meat.
> >
>
> Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I should grind my own beef, but it's not
> something I'm really interested in doing. Life is too short to do
> everything perfectly.;-) I do have a meat grinder but it's a hand
> operated one and I used it once. That was enough. I know, I can hear
you
> saying something like "Well get an electric one." Sure. Except that
if I
> turn on the electric oven or a hairdryer I have to be sure to turn
off
> the electric heater in at least one room or I'll blow the circuit
> breakers and have to reset that damned clock radio for the 14th time
> that day. So another electrical appliance is not an option; it would
> just be another annoyance. Besides they cost about 100 euros and it's

> hard to think of spending that mich on something that will only make
me
> spend more time doing something I'm not interested in doing.
>
> I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on
the
> highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible,
> though. Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit
of
> it first and then adding more.

You have a lot of problems and no solutions.

Sheldon

"Ellie C" > wrote in message
...
> Sheldon wrote:

<snip>

> I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on the
> highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible, though.
> Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit of it first
> and then adding more.

Sheldon is right on the money!

You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil. To test the pan
see if a bead of water dances.

All ground beef will steam in its own juices (natural) if there is not
enough heat. That fact is undeniable. Therefore if your ground beef would
not fry but rather steamed there was more cold meat than the stored up heat
in the pan could handle.


Dimitri

"Ellie C" > wrote in message
...
> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
(e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of the
above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling sometime
during the process
The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of heat
large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
temperature-
e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a reason
iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry" the
surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it cools)
, etc.
The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all the
meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"

To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the bottom
heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a bit
of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time to
thinly cover the bottom.
I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.

Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
stainless, or aluminum.
In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was so-so
in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.

(Alternatively, you can also brown meat in the oven on a shallow pan at 450.
Takes a couple minutes or so. Works well especially if you have a large
amount to do and a good fan hood.)

Ellie C wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > Ellie C wrote:
> >
> >>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
hamburger
> >>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
> >
> > ground
> >
> >>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount
> >
> > of
> >
> >>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
> >
> > usual
> >
> >>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of
> >
> > events: I
> >
> >>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a
few
> >>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water,
> >
> > enough
> >
> >>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
> >
> > mean
> >
> >>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> >>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> >>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
> >
> >
> > I'd say that water is being added to the ground meat, either
> > deliberately or as a "side effect" of its handling. I'd urge you
to
> > find another source for your meat, esp for ground meat.
> >
> > I had an experience similar to yours a number of years ago. The
ground
> > beef bought at a nation-wide chain store oozed a lot of water when
> > fried...and what was oozing was clearly water and not fat. Not at
all
> > natural and I never again bought meat (or much of anything else)
from
> > that chain.
> >
> > Mac

It is more likely that you are putting too much beef in the pan at
once, so you end up steaming it instead of browning it. Use a more
shallow fry pan - try doing 1/4 pound or 1/2 pound at a time, instead
of more than that.

Any meat, when crowded into the pan, will steam instead of brown...I
sincerely doubt that ice cubes in the grinder (would melt super fast
and be gone from the product before packaging) or any other means of
injecting water into the ground beef is going on.

N.

Dimitri wrote:
> "Ellie C" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Sheldon wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on the
>>highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible, though.
>>Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit of it first
>>and then adding more.
>
>
> Sheldon is right on the money!
>
> You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil. To test the pan
> see if a bead of water dances.
>
> All ground beef will steam in its own juices (natural) if there is not
> enough heat. That fact is undeniable. Therefore if your ground beef would
> not fry but rather steamed there was more cold meat than the stored up heat
> in the pan could handle.
>
>
> Dimitri



I think y'all are overlooking the comment that Ellie made that she is in
*France*. In the USA, ground beef is about the only meat you can get at
the supermarkets that is not pumped full of water -- only because it is
illegal to add water to ground beef (as Sheldon mentioned). But the
USDA regulations don't apply to whatever is sold at the local butcher
shop in Europe.

It sounds like the butcher is adding a bunch of crushed ice when he
grinds the meat. Ellie needs to find a different butcher.

The meat is probably still usable if she fries it in tiny batches over
high heat so the water can boil off as quickly as it cooks out.

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
>
> <snip>
> It sounds like the butcher is adding a bunch of crushed ice when he
> grinds the meat. Ellie needs to find a different butcher.
>
> The meat is probably still usable if she fries it in tiny batches
over
> high heat so the water can boil off as quickly as it cooks out.

I assume that from what some of the other posters said that they
themselves have never encountered ground beef infused with water. The
amount of water exuded is astonishing and is unmistakable. The amount
of water has nothing to do with how hot the pan is, how loaded with
beef, etc. In my one experience with ground beef that I'm absolutely
positive had been infused with water, a single patty (maybe about 5-6
oz) I was frying gave off at least 1/8 a cup of water, probably more.
I remember pouring off the water so that the burger would fry instead
of braise. I have not encountered that again; in fact, I haven't
encountered again free water in the pan with ground beef, even a pan
full of ground beef that I was browning.

I think that we're right to think that our marketplace is remarkably
free of fraud (mislabeled meat, water infusion, etc) but it still
occurs, along with a few other tricks of the greedy merchant. Ellie
I'm sure has encountered a fraudulant butcher in France. Her kitchen
sense and experience has told her that, her description "confirms" it
IMO.

Mac

-- wrote:
> "Ellie C" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
>>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
>>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
>>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
>>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
>>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
>>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>
>
> It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
> ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
> (e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of the
> above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling sometime
> during the process

Copper pan, heated until very hgot, oil added. I cook this meat the same
way I have always cooked it and it behaved differently than what I'm
used to. Perhaps I should have spelled this out more clearly.

....
>
> To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the bottom
> heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a bit
> of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time to
> thinly cover the bottom.
> I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.
>
> Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
> stainless, or aluminum.

> In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
> amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was so-so
> in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.

Yes, I agree completely. Typically, I would use seasoned iron, which is
my favorite. But since in this case I would be adding tomato sauce I
didn't use my iron pans. What surprised me is not that the meat produced
some water, but that there was so much more than I have ever seen, and
this seems to be the case consistently. My husband has commented on it
as well. We're both retired and have been cooking a lot of years. We're
comparing this to previous experience.
>
> (Alternatively, you can also brown meat in the oven on a shallow pan at 450.
> Takes a couple minutes or so. Works well especially if you have a large
> amount to do and a good fan hood.)
>
>
>
>
>

I should also note that it is possible that the meat was frozen by the
processor or market at too low a temperature, and the cells broke from the
larger ice crystals that form, letting out more water from the cells than
usual when it was ground.
Or if it was thawed and frozen several times after grinding, again in a
freezer not below 0F, it might damage the cells and appear more watery.
(I will also add that that would be unusual for US beef - I do not think
it is ever ground from thawed frozen meat, let alone meat frozen at a
too-high temperature.)

And note that farmers will load their cattle with water before shipping -
primarily because it reduces shipping stress, and thus minimizes weight
loss in transit - (I heard somewhere that as much as 150 lbs is lost per
animal in some areas in some shippings, around a hundred bucks per animal
for the farmer, or worse if the animal dies in transit.)

Keeping the pan hot and frying smaller bits should compensate for it,
anyway.

"--" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ellie C" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
> > from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
> > beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
> > olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
> > with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
> > heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
> > seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
> > so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
> > the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> > "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> > crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>
> It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
> ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
> (e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of the
> above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
sometime
> during the process
> The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of heat
> large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
> temperature-
> e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a reason
> iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
> burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry" the
> surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
cools)
> , etc.
> The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
the
> meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"
>
> To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the bottom
> heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a bit
> of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time to
> thinly cover the bottom.
> I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.
>
> Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
> stainless, or aluminum.
> In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
> amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was so-so
> in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.
>
> (Alternatively, you can also brown meat in the oven on a shallow pan at
450.
> Takes a couple minutes or so. Works well especially if you have a large
> amount to do and a good fan hood.)
>
>
>
>
>

wrote:

> zxcvbob wrote:
>
>><snip>
>>It sounds like the butcher is adding a bunch of crushed ice when he
>>grinds the meat. Ellie needs to find a different butcher.
>>
>>The meat is probably still usable if she fries it in tiny batches
>
> over
>
>>high heat so the water can boil off as quickly as it cooks out.
>
>
> I assume that from what some of the other posters said that they
> themselves have never encountered ground beef infused with water. The
> amount of water exuded is astonishing and is unmistakable. The amount
> of water has nothing to do with how hot the pan is, how loaded with
> beef, etc. In my one experience with ground beef that I'm absolutely
> positive had been infused with water, a single patty (maybe about 5-6
> oz) I was frying gave off at least 1/8 a cup of water, probably more.
> I remember pouring off the water so that the burger would fry instead
> of braise. I have not encountered that again; in fact, I haven't
> encountered again free water in the pan with ground beef, even a pan
> full of ground beef that I was browning.
>
> I think that we're right to think that our marketplace is remarkably
> free of fraud (mislabeled meat, water infusion, etc) but it still
> occurs, along with a few other tricks of the greedy merchant. Ellie
> I'm sure has encountered a fraudulant butcher in France. Her kitchen
> sense and experience has told her that, her description "confirms" it
> IMO.
>
> Mac
>
Thank you. It's nice to find someone who is willing to entertain the
idea that I actually know how to cook. This meat came from a chain
grocery store. Next time I'll go to the butcher down the street, who was
closed the day that I bought this hamburger.

Hahabogus wrote:
> "Sheldon" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>
>>Ellie C wrote:
>>
>>>Sheldon wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Ellie C wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
>>
>>hamburger
>>
>>>>>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
>>>>
>>>>ground
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount
>>>>
>>>>of
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
>>>>
>>>>usual
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of
>>>>
>>>>events: I
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a
>>
>>few
>>
>>>>>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water,
>>>>
>>>>enough
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
>>>>
>>>>mean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>>>>>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>>>>>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It's possible water was added but not highly unlikely with plain
>>
>>ground
>>
>>>>meat, markets do not want to risk stiff fines for mislabeling.
>>
>>However
>>
>>>>with sausage ice is often added, but then the package would say
>>
>>"Water
>>
>>>>Added" and what percent. Animal flesh is normally about 75% water,
>>
>>so
>>
>>>>if cooked at too low a temperature water will exude and need to
>>>>evaporate before the meat can brown... you need to increase the
>>
>>cooking
>>
>>>>temperature so that the water naturally contained in the meat
>>>>evaporates more quickly than it exudes. You are very likely
>>>>overloading your pan... try browning only a samll amount of meat at
>>
>>a
>>
>>>>time. Of course you shouldn't be using stupidmarket ground meat in
>>
>>the
>>
>>>>first place, get yourself a meat grinder, then you'll know what and
>>
>>who
>>
>>>>is in your meat.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I should grind my own beef, but it's not
>>>something I'm really interested in doing. Life is too short to do
>>>everything perfectly.;-) I do have a meat grinder but it's a hand
>>>operated one and I used it once. That was enough. I know, I can hear
>>
>>you
>>
>>>saying something like "Well get an electric one." Sure. Except that
>>
>>if I
>>
>>>turn on the electric oven or a hairdryer I have to be sure to turn
>>
>>off
>>
>>>the electric heater in at least one room or I'll blow the circuit
>>>breakers and have to reset that damned clock radio for the 14th time
>>>that day. So another electrical appliance is not an option; it would
>>>just be another annoyance. Besides they cost about 100 euros and it's
>>
>>>hard to think of spending that mich on something that will only make
>>
>>me
>>
>>>spend more time doing something I'm not interested in doing.
>>>
>>>I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on
>>
>>the
>>
>>>highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible,
>>>though. Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit
>>
>>of
>>
>>>it first and then adding more.
>>
>>You have a lot of problems and no solutions.
>>
>>Sheldon
>>
>>
>
>
> my suggestion is use a regular pan, but a bigger one. Clock radios are
> cheap...ones with battery back up are not much more in price. Get your
> electric upgraded to more amps larger breaker panel and add more circuts.
> Insulate so heaters aren't required in every room. Or move to a more
> modern dwelling. Having the breakers trip 14 times a day can indicate a
> fire hazard or bad/weakened breakers.
>

Well, I live in France. This is how things work here. The elec in the
house is all new. Even though there about 12 different circuits,
overloading one causes everything to go off. That's how it is, my
electrician tell me. The heaters in every room *are* the heat and it has
been quite cold here. As for insulating, well, it would be nice if
possible. We live in a small house with walls that are stone, about 1.5'
thick. There's no place to put insulation. (I'm sure there will be lots
of people who will be willing to tell me exactly how to insulate my
house in the next few posts. And here I thought I was asking about how
to tell if hamburger was watered...)

Move to a more modern dwelling? Geesh! Hah! And here I was asking about
cooking. And don't get me started about things like clock radios....
Living in France makes me really understand that the US is a consumer
wonderland. Granted, I am living in the back hills of France. Consumer
choice isn't large.

Ellie wrote:

> Yes, I agree completely. Typically, I would use seasoned iron, which is my
> favorite. But since in this case I would be adding tomato sauce I didn't
> use my iron pans. What surprised me is not that the meat produced some
> water, but that there was so much more than I have ever seen, and this
> seems to be the case consistently. My husband has commented on it as well.
> We're both retired and have been cooking a lot of years. We're comparing
> this to previous experience.

I don't have anything to contribute to the central discussion about the
hamburger; I think it probably was adulterated with water, and there wasn't
anything you could have done to brown it. But this caught my eye:


> Typically, I would use seasoned iron, which is my favorite. But since in
> this case I would be adding tomato sauce I didn't use my iron pans.

You used a copper pan because you didn't want to use iron with tomato sauce?
But isn't copper a reactive surface also? Or was it coated on the inside?
My experience has been that if cast iron is seasoned well enough, the
seasoning prevents the chemical reaction with acidic ingredients; maybe the
iron pan would have been a better choice (because of the heat retention
which others have mentioned).

Oh, there is one other thing: Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,
unless you're grinding a LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef using
your hand grinder, then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or maybe
it was just poorly designed or poorly built. How long was the crank?)

Bob

In rec.food.cooking, Dimitri > wrote:


> You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil.

Why not just add the oil and then heat it all together?


--
In the councils of government, we must guard against the
acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought,
by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the
disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
-- Dwight David Eisenhower

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:07:18 -0600, zxcvbob >
wrote:

>Dimitri wrote:
>> "Ellie C" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Sheldon wrote:
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on the
>>>highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible, though.
>>>Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit of it first
>>>and then adding more.
>>
>>
>> Sheldon is right on the money!
>>
>> You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil. To test the pan
>> see if a bead of water dances.
>>
>> All ground beef will steam in its own juices (natural) if there is not
>> enough heat. That fact is undeniable. Therefore if your ground beef would
>> not fry but rather steamed there was more cold meat than the stored up heat
>> in the pan could handle.
>>
>>
>> Dimitri
>
>
>
>I think y'all are overlooking the comment that Ellie made that she is in
>*France*. In the USA, ground beef is about the only meat you can get at
>the supermarkets that is not pumped full of water -- only because it is
>illegal to add water to ground beef (as Sheldon mentioned). But the
>USDA regulations don't apply to whatever is sold at the local butcher
>shop in Europe.
>
>It sounds like the butcher is adding a bunch of crushed ice when he
>grinds the meat. Ellie needs to find a different butcher.
>
>The meat is probably still usable if she fries it in tiny batches over
>high heat so the water can boil off as quickly as it cooks out.
>
>Best regards,
>Bob

Several people here have posted that they have doubts about ice being
added to beef as it is being ground. I would not have posted my
original post if I had not observed this practice myself...more than
once. The water does not drain from the ground meat but stays there
until it is cooked, at which time the meat simply gets boiled. Also,
at least ham, and maybe other meats can contain up to 10% water
withour being labeled "Water added"

Oh, there is one other thing: Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,

unless you're grinding a LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef
using
your hand grinder, then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or
maybe
it was just poorly designed or poorly built.

How long was the crank?)

Bob


How long was the crank... hmm, now you're getting personal.

"--" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ellie C" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
>> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
>> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
>> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
>> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
>> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
>> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>
> It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
> ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
> (e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of the
> above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
> sometime
> during the process
> The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of heat
> large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
> temperature-
> e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a reason
> iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
> burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry" the
> surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
> cools)
> , etc.
> The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
> the
> meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"
>
> To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the bottom
> heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a bit
> of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time to
> thinly cover the bottom.
> I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.
>
> Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
> stainless, or aluminum.
> In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
> amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was so-so
> in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.

Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the hamburger
already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil. Also, I agree with
using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté pan
to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same time,
when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold it
all.

Something to think about.

Bret



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In article >,
Ellie C > wrote:

> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.

It would behave that way if it had been frozen -- before or after
grinding.

Isaac

Sheldon replied to me:

>> Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,unless you're grinding a
>> LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef using your hand grinder,
>> then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or maybe it was just
>> poorly designed or poorly built.
>>
>> How long was the crank?)
>
>
> How long was the crank... hmm, now you're getting personal.

Really, Sheldon, how much of your day DO you spend thinking about penises?
Or maybe a better question would be, is there any time when you're NOT
thinking about penises?

Bob

Bob wrote:
> Ellie wrote:
>
>
>>Yes, I agree completely. Typically, I would use seasoned iron, which is my
>>favorite. But since in this case I would be adding tomato sauce I didn't
>>use my iron pans. What surprised me is not that the meat produced some
>>water, but that there was so much more than I have ever seen, and this
>>seems to be the case consistently. My husband has commented on it as well.
>>We're both retired and have been cooking a lot of years. We're comparing
>>this to previous experience.
>
>
> I don't have anything to contribute to the central discussion about the
> hamburger; I think it probably was adulterated with water, and there wasn't
> anything you could have done to brown it. But this caught my eye:
>
>
>
>>Typically, I would use seasoned iron, which is my favorite. But since in
>>this case I would be adding tomato sauce I didn't use my iron pans.
>
>
> You used a copper pan because you didn't want to use iron with tomato sauce?
> But isn't copper a reactive surface also? Or was it coated on the inside?
> My experience has been that if cast iron is seasoned well enough, the
> seasoning prevents the chemical reaction with acidic ingredients; maybe the
> iron pan would have been a better choice (because of the heat retention
> which others have mentioned).

I wasn't worried at all about reactivity. I don't like to put liquid
into my iron pans.

>
> Oh, there is one other thing: Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,
> unless you're grinding a LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef using
> your hand grinder, then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or maybe
> it was just poorly designed or poorly built. How long was the crank?)
>

You are probably younger and stronger than I am; and you're probably
taller as well. With the grinder on my table it's just a bit too high
for me to get proper leverage on the handle. Not about to build a
special table for the grinder. ;-)
> Bob
>
>

Maverick wrote:

> "--" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"Ellie C" > wrote in message
.. .
>>
>>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>>>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
>>>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
>>>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
>>>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
>>>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>>>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
>>>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
>>>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>>>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>>>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>>
>> It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
>>ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
>>(e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of the
>>above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
>>sometime
>>during the process
>> The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of heat
>>large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
>>temperature-
>> e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a reason
>>iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
>>burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry" the
>>surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
>>cools)
>>, etc.
>> The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
>>the
>>meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"
>>
>> To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the bottom
>>heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a bit
>>of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time to
>>thinly cover the bottom.
>> I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.
>>
>> Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
>>stainless, or aluminum.
>> In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
>>amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was so-so
>>in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.
>
>
> Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the hamburger
> already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil.

Ordinarilly I'd agree with you. This is something I've found necessary
when cooking French meat. It's very, very lean with no marbling
whatsoever. Even though this ground beef is labeled 15% fat it's hard to
believe that it's that high. It doesn't handle like any 15% fat beef I
ever used in the US.


Also, I agree with
> using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté pan
> to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same time,
> when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
> meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold it
> all.

Yep, your experience is that same as mine - back in the US. I think I
may have moved to an alternate universe! :-)
>
> Something to think about.
>
> Bret
>
>
>
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Isaac Wingfield wrote:

> In article >,
> Ellie C > wrote:
>
>
>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>>from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
>>beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
>>olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
>>with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events: I
>>heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>>seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
>>so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
>>the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>>"water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>>crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>
>
> It would behave that way if it had been frozen -- before or after
> grinding.
>
> Isaac
It did not have the look or feel of frozen beef. No blood in the bottom
of the package, for instance. And it had the feel of freshly ground beef
when I broke it up to put in the frying pan.

"Maverick" > wrote in message
...
> "--" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Ellie C" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
> >> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this ground
> >> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
> >> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is usual
> >> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events:
I
> >> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
> >> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
> >> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this mean
> >> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
> >> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
> >> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
> >
> > It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
> > ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal mass
> > (e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of
the
> > above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
> > sometime
> > during the process
> > The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of
heat
> > large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
> > temperature-
> > e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a
reason
> > iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from the
> > burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry"
the
> > surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
> > cools)
> > , etc.
> > The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
> > the
> > meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"
> >
> > To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the
bottom
> > heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a
bit
> > of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time
to
> > thinly cover the bottom.
> > I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.
> >
> > Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon coatings,
> > stainless, or aluminum.
> > In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
> > amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was
so-so
> > in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.
>
> Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the hamburger
> already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil.

Its oil (fat) is mixed in with its proteins and sugars. Using oil
1) keeps the pan seasoned and
2) assures that the proteins and sugars do not touch the metal directly (and
then stick) but rather touch oil on the pan.

Also, I agree with
> using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté
pan
> to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same time,
> when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
> meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold it
> all.

I have a hunch that "one man's browning might be another man's cooking",
and so there is a wide variety of what actually is called browning.
What some of my friends call browning is not certainly steaming, and it
indeed does keep much of the juice and avoids that boiled-meat taste, but
it does not add the flavor of "gently carmelized" meat I want when I brown.

Just a hunch there is a wide variation in what people (accurately) think
of as browning.

>
> Something to think about.
>
> Bret
>
>
>
> ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
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=----

I did wonder if some jurisdictions require, or some local practices use, a
specified amount of ice to keep the temperature of the meat down for safety
reasons - just a thought.
If it is a health regulation somewhere, think its a really poor excuse
for not having the meat cold enough and in small enough batches and in a
cold room while grinding.

"Allan Matthews" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 11:07:18 -0600, zxcvbob >
> wrote:
>
> >Dimitri wrote:
> >> "Ellie C" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>>Sheldon wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> <snip>
> >>
> >>>I don't think I was overloading the pan, and it was a copper pan on the
> >>>highest flame on a gas stove, so the pan was quite hot. Possible,
though.
> >>>Next time I buy some ground beef I'll try cooking just a bit of it
first
> >>>and then adding more.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sheldon is right on the money!
> >>
> >> You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil. To test
the pan
> >> see if a bead of water dances.
> >>
> >> All ground beef will steam in its own juices (natural) if there is not
> >> enough heat. That fact is undeniable. Therefore if your ground beef
would
> >> not fry but rather steamed there was more cold meat than the stored up
heat
> >> in the pan could handle.
> >>
> >>
> >> Dimitri
> >
> >
> >
> >I think y'all are overlooking the comment that Ellie made that she is in
> >*France*. In the USA, ground beef is about the only meat you can get at
> >the supermarkets that is not pumped full of water -- only because it is
> >illegal to add water to ground beef (as Sheldon mentioned). But the
> >USDA regulations don't apply to whatever is sold at the local butcher
> >shop in Europe.
> >
> >It sounds like the butcher is adding a bunch of crushed ice when he
> >grinds the meat. Ellie needs to find a different butcher.
> >
> >The meat is probably still usable if she fries it in tiny batches over
> >high heat so the water can boil off as quickly as it cooks out.
> >
> >Best regards,
> >Bob
>
> Several people here have posted that they have doubts about ice being
> added to beef as it is being ground. I would not have posted my
> original post if I had not observed this practice myself...more than
> once. The water does not drain from the ground meat but stays there
> until it is cooked, at which time the meat simply gets boiled. Also,
> at least ham, and maybe other meats can contain up to 10% water
> withour being labeled "Water added"

Bob wrote:
> Sheldon replied to me:
>
>>> Hand-grinding meat isn't that big a deal,unless you're grinding a
>>> LOT. If it was really difficult to grind beef using your hand
>>> grinder, then maybe the grinder wasn't set up properly. (Or maybe
>>> it was just poorly designed or poorly built.
>>>
>>> How long was the crank?)
>>
>>
>> How long was the crank... hmm, now you're getting personal.
>
> Really, Sheldon, how much of your day DO you spend thinking about
> penises? Or maybe a better question would be, is there any time when
> you're NOT thinking about penises?
>
> Bob

When he's not thinking about breasts, of course!

Jill

Ellie C wrote:
[snip]
> > Ellie C > wrote:

> >>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
> >> hamburger from the local market. [snip]

Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?

-aem

> wrote in message
...
> In rec.food.cooking, Dimitri > wrote:
>
>
>> You have the sequence wrong - Heat the pan then add the oil.
>
> Why not just add the oil and then heat it all together?

No reason other that the old wives tale - hot pan + cold oil = no stick.

The basic reason its it is difficult to gauge the heat of an oil filled pan
as the smoke point differs greatly based upon the oil used.

If a drop of water "dances" on a dry pan the pan is ready to cook on.

Dimitri

aem wrote:
> Ellie C wrote:
> [snip]
>
>>> Ellie C > wrote:
>
>
>>>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
>>>>hamburger from the local market. [snip]
>
>
> Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
> seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
> important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?
>
> -aem
>


Ground beef with canned chinese mixed vegetables, thickened with a
little flour or cornstarch. The only seasonings are soy sauce and a
little molasses or perhaps dark brown sugar. Serve over slightly stale
"chow mein noodles" or white rice.

It's one of the few things my Mom cooked about once a month that I never
much cared for.

Bob

aem wrote:
> Ellie C wrote:
> [snip]
> > > Ellie C > wrote:
>
> > >>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
> > >> hamburger from the local market. [snip]
>
> Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the
consensus
> seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
> important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?

<laughing> That question can stir up a debate. When I was a boy my
mother made "American Chop Suey" (that's what we and her cookbook
called it) with elbow macaroni, ground beef, some tomato sauce, a bit
of chopped onion. Each ingredient was cooked separately, combined in a
casserole and put in the oven for a little while. I liked it...tho I
haven't had it for years. It's very similar to what is now called
"beef and macaroni". Not a thing Chinese about it.

Mac

"aem" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ellie C wrote:
> [snip]
>> > Ellie C > wrote:
>
>> >>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
>> >> hamburger from the local market. [snip]
>
> Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
> seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
> important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?
>
> -aem

Hamburger Helper and any vegetables.

LOL

Dimitri

Dimitri wrote:
> [snip]
> Hamburger Helper and any vegetables.
>
> LOL

Beef and canned mixed Chinese vegetables, beef and macaroni, hamburg
help and vegetables...it is now clear that all the answers to the
original post are wrong. The reason the beef exuded so much water was
Fear! It was sweat, induced by the thought of being used in a dish
like these! :-)

-aem

Dimitri wrote:
> "aem" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>
>>Ellie C wrote:
>>[snip]
>>
>>>> Ellie C > wrote:
>>
>>>>>I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using
>>>>>hamburger from the local market. [snip]
>>
>>Okay, you've established that you have cooking skills and the consensus
>>seems to be that the butcher/market did you a bad deed, now on to the
>>important question: What in the world is "American Chop Suey"?
>>
>>-aem
>
>
> Hamburger Helper and any vegetables.
>
> LOL
>
> Dimitri
>
>
Didn't you ever have American Chop Suey in your school cafeterias?
Hamburger, elbow macaroni, onions, celery, tomatoes all mixed together,
served with a neon orange cube of cheese on the side.

Not gourmet, but a popular jr. high lunch.

gloria p

In article >,
wrote:


> Didn't you ever have American Chop Suey in your school cafeterias?
> Hamburger, elbow macaroni, onions, celery, tomatoes all mixed together,
> served with a neon orange cube of cheese on the side.


Fortunately not. I had never even *heard* of American Chop Suey until
well into my adult years. In fact, Chop Suey *is* an American dish
already, so American Chop Suey is redundant.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

Puester wrote:
>[snip]
> Didn't you ever have American Chop Suey in your school cafeterias?
> Hamburger, elbow macaroni, onions, celery, tomatoes all mixed
> together, served with a neon orange cube of cheese on the side.
>
> Not gourmet, but a popular jr. high lunch.
>
We had a really good school cafeteria that served genuine food to
middle and high school. I do know that dish, now that you describe it,
but never heard anyone call it "American Chop Suey", and it didn't have
the cheese cube. I still make something similar every great once in a
while, based on a story in one of MFK Fisher's books. Its
distinguishing feature is the addition of creamed corn. Sounds
unlikely, but works.

That school cafeteria is where I was first introduced to food service.
Learned to run the dishwashing machine, cleaned up, then later worked
the service line. After several months they introduced me to some prep
work involving the potato peeling machine and the mixer, not including
knife work. But I watched the cooks' knife skills with a lot of
interest. Eventually, I was flipping burgers and frying potatoes on
the big griddle. It was great experience for a later stint in a short
order setting. One of the things I learned, later ratified in the
army, was that different people could take the same ingredients and the
same recipes and produce very different results, based on the skill and
care they took.

-aem

"--" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Maverick" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "--" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Ellie C" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >> I cooked up some American Chop Suey for lunch today, using hamburger
>> >> from the local market. I've now come to the conclusion that this
>> >> ground
>> >> beef is just weird. It's 15% fat, so I generally add a small amount of
>> >> olive oil to the pan before I start to brown the meat. But, as is
>> >> usual
>> >> with this ground beef, it never browns. Here's the sequence of events:
> I
>> >> heat the olive oil in the frying pan, then I add the beef. For a few
>> >> seconds it sizzles normally and then it starts releasing water, enough
>> >> so that it's actually boiling and it never browns again. Does this
>> >> mean
>> >> the meat has been watered? If I cook it for a really long time the
>> >> "water" boils off, but the meat by this time has turned into little
>> >> crumbles and never becomes browned - the crumbles just get harder.
>> >
>> > It sounds like you are starting with too low a heat, or put too much
>> > ground beef in the pan at once, or are using a pan with low thermal
>> > mass
>> > (e.g, aluminum vs iron), or using too small a pan, or a combination of
> the
>> > above. The hint was the release of water - a sign of a pan chilling
>> > sometime
>> > during the process
>> > The meat browns because of its immediate contact with a source of
> heat
>> > large enough to fry the surface before the source cools below frying
>> > temperature-
>> > e.g., you need a large slab of metal that holds heat (there is a
> reason
>> > iron takes longer than aluminum to heat - its storing that heat from
>> > the
>> > burner instead of immediately passing it on), enough oil to "deep fry"
> the
>> > surface (the hot oil transfers its internal heat to the food until it
>> > cools)
>> > , etc.
>> > The idea is to have a pan capable of keeping temp, and not dumping all
>> > the
>> > meat in, thus to keep the meat from "chilling the pan"
>> >
>> > To brown well, use a 10" iron skillet with a layer of oil on the
> bottom
>> > heated to medium high (that's roughly just before smoking, and where a
> bit
>> > of meat sizzles when dropped in), and put in just enough meat at a time
> to
>> > thinly cover the bottom.
>> > I can't do much more than a half a pound at a time in a 10" iron.
>> >
>> > Seasoned iron does a much better job of browning than teflon
>> > coatings,
>> > stainless, or aluminum.
>> > In one experiment we did with iron, stainless, and aluminum, the same
>> > amount of meat wouldn't even brown in an aluminum or teflon pan, was
> so-so
>> > in stainless, and browned evenly and fully in seasoned iron.
>>
>> Ok. I'm probably wrong but why would you want to add oil if the
>> hamburger
>> already has %15 fat? It will provide it's own oil.
>
> Its oil (fat) is mixed in with its proteins and sugars. Using oil
> 1) keeps the pan seasoned and
> 2) assures that the proteins and sugars do not touch the metal directly
> (and
> then stick) but rather touch oil on the pan.

Gotcha. I happen to use a teflon pan when I want to brown hamburger but
I've been know to throw a couple of lbs of ground beef in my CI if I think
it needs a quick seasoning. Or bacon. Bacon works well to for a quick
light re-seasoning of my CI.

> Also, I agree with
>> using a thicker/heavier pan than a copper pan. I use a 10" teflon sauté
> pan
>> to brown 2lbs of ground beef and a pound of sausage, all at the same
>> time,
>> when I make my spaghetti sauce and I've never had a problem browning the
>> meat. I've tried using my SS skillet but it is not high enough to hold
>> it
>> all.
>
> I have a hunch that "one man's browning might be another man's cooking",
> and so there is a wide variety of what actually is called browning.
> What some of my friends call browning is not certainly steaming, and it
> indeed does keep much of the juice and avoids that boiled-meat taste, but
> it does not add the flavor of "gently carmelized" meat I want when I
> brown.

I have a hunch you are right. I call it browning when the meat is a
reasonably mid to dark brown when I'm done. I don't think it's called
browning if it is grey or very light brown colored.

Course, since I've started making my own meat-spaghetti sauce (is that a
ragoo?) from scratch and not out of a jar, I've found that I always saute
(or sweat?) some diced onions and garlic in the pan first before I add the
hamburger and sausage (we prefer spicy Italian sausage)

Ok, this is where being a novice in the cooking world comes to life for me.
I know what I'm doing when it comes to, say, sauteing (or sweating) some
diced onions for my sauce but I don't know the correct culinary terms for
what I'm doing. What the hell is the difference between a saute and a sweat?
About the only difference I can see between them is the temp difference. Is
there more to it than that?

> Just a hunch there is a wide variation in what people (accurately) think
> of as browning.


You do realize that you've turned this thread into a major thread, right?
;->

Bret



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Maverick wrote:

> Ok, this is where being a novice in the cooking world comes to life for
> me. I know what I'm doing when it comes to, say, sauteing (or sweating)
> some diced onions for my sauce but I don't know the correct culinary terms
> for what I'm doing. What the hell is the difference between a saute and a
> sweat? About the only difference I can see between them is the temp
> difference. Is there more to it than that?

Besides the difference in cooking temperatures, a sauté is done in an open
pan, while a sweat is done in a covered pan.

The aims of the two are very different: In a sauté, your intent is to cook
the ingredients quickly, with a bit of crispness occurring around the edges.
When you sweat ingredients, you're generally trying to get them to exude
juices and soften.

Bob