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![]() OK, I'm taking the plunge & buying new knives. I'm trying to decide between 2 different Wüsthof sets. I'm not quite sure what the deal is with these & I can't decide. Both of these have been discounted to the same cost so purchase amount would be the same, but one was originally almost $60.00 more than the other and comes with less "stuff". Doesn't make sense. I'm not an expert on knives, so maybe Y'all could help me out here. What makes the smaller set more valuable than the larger set? Here was the "lesser" expensive set Wüsthof Traditional Gourmet 7-Piece Block Set # Full, seamlessly encased triple-riveted tangs; synthetic traditional-style handles # Includes 4-inch parer, 4-1/2-inch utility, 8-inch carver, 8-inch chef's # Also: shears, 9-inch sharpening steel, 9-slot oak block # Laser-cut high-carbon steel blade with stain-resistant alloy # Precise tapering from grinding and polishing procedure Product Description Review Representing Wüsthof’s Gourmet series of knives, this block set features less expensive versions of the knives in the manufacturer’s Classic series. Knives in the set include a 4-inch parer, 4-1/2-inch serrated utility, 8-inch chef's, kitchen shears, and 9-inch sharpening steel. Everything fits within the 9-slot rubber-footed oak block. Although the blades are still made of high-carbon steel with a stain-resistant alloy, the difference in the Gourmet series is that the blade is a thinner quality metal and is cut by a precision laser instead of by hand. The blade still has an ideal shape as it is ground and polished by computer to ensure perfect tapering from tip to bolster. Full tangs extend through the synthetic traditional-style handles, which are triple-riveted for strength. These knives are dishwasher-safe but handwashing is recommended to preserve the edges on the blades. The Gourmet series is an excellent alternative for those who want to own quality Wüsthof cutlery but are on a budget. What's in the Box 4-inch parer; 4-1/2-inch utility; 8-inch carver; 8-inch chef's; shears; 9-inch sharpening steel; 9-slot oak block Product Description Wusthof has been make knives in Germany for over 190 years. The fine high carbon no stain steel retains its edge for a long time and is easy to sharpen. Gourmet is a laser cut blade. The full tang 3 rivited handle is sturdy and well balanced. The 7pc set includes, 4" parer, 4.5" utility serrated, 8"carver, 8"cooks, kitchen shear, 9"sharpening steel, 9 slot oak block Here is the "more" expensive set Wüsthof Grand Prix 5-Piece Knife Block Set # Full tangs; molded polypropylene handles; lifetime warranty # Knives include: 6-inch cook's, 8-inch carving, 3-inch paring # Also includes: 9-inch sharpening steel; 9-slot oak block # Blades formed of single piece of high-carbon, stain-resistant steel # Computer-ground, hand-honed blades; precision slicing; longer edge retention Review This set includes an assortment of short-blade cutlery designed for chefs with smaller hands. These specialty knives are difficult to find packaged together. The set contains: a 6-inch cook’s knife--a staple for chopping meats and vegetables; an 8-inch carving knife for slicing steaks and roasts; and a 3-inch paring knife for slicing garlic or peeling fruit. The 9-inch honing steel has a magnetic steel shaft in a fine to medium grit that sharpens without damaging knife edges. A 9-slot oak block stores the cutlery in this set, while leaving room for additional pieces. Wüsthof’s Grand Prix knives have the perfect balance of high-carbon, no-stain steel. Knives retain their edge longer, and never become discolored. Blades are ground and polished by computer, ensuring perfect tapering from bolster to tip. Edges are hand-honed for precision slicing. The tang extends through a slip-free, molded, polypropylene handle for excellent balance and heft. The knives are dishwasher-safe--though hand washing is recommended. All Wüsthof cutlery is covered under a lifetime warranty. --Cristina Vaamonde What’s in the Box 6-inch cook’s knife, 8-inch carving knife, 3-inch paring knife, 9-inch sharpening steel, 9-slot oak block. Product Description This five-piece cutlery collection from the Wüsthof Grand Prix line outfits your kitchen with everything you need to slice, dice, and chop all your favorite foods. The set includes a 3-inch paring knife for peeling fruits and vegetables, a 6-inch utility knife for slicing mushrooms and mincing garlic, a 6-inch cook's knife for all-purpose chopping and slicing, a 9-inch sharpening steel, and a nine-slot wooden storage block. Each knife features a precision-forged high-carbon stainless-steel blade with a full bolster and tang. The forging process gives the blades remarkable sharpness and durability, as does the computer-controlled grinding and polishing process. When the blades eventually dull, as all blades do, the sharpening steel will re-hone the edges with a few quick swipes. The handles are comfortable in the hands thanks to the slip-free, pebble-grained grip. Each handle also enhances the balance of the knife thanks to the full tang and single-piece construction, making them easier to manipulate and control. Wüsthof recommends hand washing the cutlery--which comes with a limited lifetime warranty--for best results. What's in the Box 3-inch paring knife, 6-inch utility knife, 6-inch cook's knife, 9-inch sharpening steel, wooden storage block Product Description Wusthof has been making the finest knives in the world for over 190 years. Through excellent craftsman ship and engineering the Grand Prix knife line has become one of the finest in the world. This 5 piece set includes 3-inch parer, 8-inch carving, 6-inch cooks, 9-inch steel and a 9-slot storage block. |
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Denise~* wrote:
> OK, I'm taking the plunge & buying new knives. I'm trying to decide > between 2 different W=FCsthof sets. [snip] First question is why buy a set? What knife or knives do you need? As with pots and pans many of us find that buying individual pieces gives us a better chance of meeting our specific needs. > Both of these have been discounted to the same cost so purchase > amount would be the same, but one was originally almost $60.00 > more than the other [snip] Why does it matter what the former prices were? That's not an indication of quality or how they will fit with your needs. > > Here was the "lesser" expensive set > > W=FCsthof Traditional Gourmet 7-Piece Block Set > > # Full, seamlessly encased triple-riveted tangs; synthetic > traditional-style handles > # Includes 4-inch parer, 4-1/2-inch utility, 8-inch carver, 8-inch chef's > # Also: shears, 9-inch sharpening steel, 9-slot oak block > # Laser-cut high-carbon steel blade with stain-resistant alloy > # Precise tapering from grinding and polishing procedure > > [snip] > > Here is the "more" expensive set > > W=FCsthof Grand Prix 5-Piece Knife Block Set > > # Full tangs; molded polypropylene handles; lifetime warranty > # Knives include: 6-inch cook's, 8-inch carving, 3-inch paring > # Also includes: 9-inch sharpening steel; 9-slot oak block > # Blades formed of single piece of high-carbon, stain-resistant steel > # Computer-ground, hand-honed blades; precision slicing; longer edge > retention [snip] Okay, so it's 3 knives, one of which is a 6" cook's, versus 4 knives, one of which is an 8" cook's, plus shears. The smaller set has traditional (but synthetic) handles, the larger set molded polyprop. The larger set has laser-cut blades, the smaller has ground, hand-honed blades. If it were me, I'd have to go to the store and try them out for how they feel in my hand. Some knifes just fit, and others don't. If it doesn't feel right, nothing else matters. This is even true for my Chinese cleavers. Quality and longevity of both will be outstanding because they're Wusthof. In terms of knife-making technology you'd have to think that the ground and honed blades have the potential for greater sharpness. But both will be plenty sharp enough, and both will require good care to maintain it. So it comes down to, what do you need and do they feel good in your hand. Personally, a 6" cook's knife is too small for me, I much prefer the 8" size. And I've never had a serrated utility knife, that might be useful. So I'd go with the larger set, but that's me, not you. -aem |
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![]() > First question is why buy a set? What knife or knives do you need? As > with pots and pans many of us find that buying individual pieces gives > us a better chance of meeting our specific needs. I do pretty much need to replace most of my knifes, and I thought a set would accomplish this. Plus the cost for the set is right in my budget, -vs- just buying one Wusthof knife will kill my budget. I like that there are more slots in the block, than knifes that come with the set, this way I can put a couple of my old favorites in the other slots. > Why does it matter what the former prices were? That's not an > indication of quality or how they will fit with your needs. I have pretty much no clue about knife lingo, this is why I was wondering. Youactually answered this question below about the knife blades. > Okay, so it's 3 knives, one of which is a 6" cook's, versus 4 knives, > one of which is an 8" cook's, plus shears. The smaller set has > traditional (but synthetic) handles, the larger set molded polyprop. > The larger set has laser-cut blades, the smaller has ground, hand-honed > blades. I actually have a 3 stage electric knife sharpener that I purchased about a year ago. Does anyone know if one of these blade "styles" works better with an electric sharpener? > If it were me, I'd have to go to the store and try them out for how > they feel in my hand. Some knifes just fit, and others don't. If it > doesn't feel right, nothing else matters. This is even true for my > Chinese cleavers. I know, but the handles look pretty standard. I don't really have much difficulty with different shaped handles, with the exception of too small & they dont really look small. I'll take my chances. > Quality and longevity of both will be outstanding because they're > Wusthof. In terms of knife-making technology you'd have to think that > the ground and honed blades have the potential for greater sharpness. > But both will be plenty sharp enough, and both will require good care > to maintain it. So it comes down to, what do you need and do they feel > good in your hand. > > Personally, a 6" cook's knife is too small for me, I much prefer the 8" > size. And I've never had a serrated utility knife, that might be > useful. Good points > So I'd go with the larger set, but that's me, not you. > -aem Thanks for the help. |
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"Denise~*" > wrote in message
... > > >> First question is why buy a set? What knife or knives do you need? As >> with pots and pans many of us find that buying individual pieces gives >> us a better chance of meeting our specific needs. > > I do pretty much need to replace most of my knifes, and I thought a set > would accomplish this. Plus the cost for the set is right in my > budget, -vs- just buying one Wusthof knife will kill my budget. I like > that there are more slots in the block, than knifes that come with the > set, this way I can put a couple of my old favorites in the other slots. > >> Why does it matter what the former prices were? That's not an >> indication of quality or how they will fit with your needs. > > I have pretty much no clue about knife lingo, this is why I was wondering. > Youactually answered this question below about the knife blades. > >> Okay, so it's 3 knives, one of which is a 6" cook's, versus 4 knives, >> one of which is an 8" cook's, plus shears. The smaller set has >> traditional (but synthetic) handles, the larger set molded polyprop. >> The larger set has laser-cut blades, the smaller has ground, hand-honed >> blades. > > I actually have a 3 stage electric knife sharpener that I purchased about > a year ago. Does anyone know if one of these blade "styles" works better > with an electric sharpener? I wouldn't recommend using it on your Wusthof knives. When you buy high quality knives, you should think about having them sharpened by an expert. I purchased the Wusthof Classic set almost a year ago. I still can't get over how well they perform compared to the piece of crap knives I was using so I won't be using an electric knife sharpener. I'll have them professionally done. >> If it were me, I'd have to go to the store and try them out for how >> they feel in my hand. Some knifes just fit, and others don't. If it >> doesn't feel right, nothing else matters. This is even true for my >> Chinese cleavers. > > I know, but the handles look pretty standard. I don't really have much > difficulty with different shaped handles, with the exception of too small > & they dont really look small. I'll take my chances. > >> Quality and longevity of both will be outstanding because they're >> Wusthof. In terms of knife-making technology you'd have to think that >> the ground and honed blades have the potential for greater sharpness. >> But both will be plenty sharp enough, and both will require good care >> to maintain it. So it comes down to, what do you need and do they feel >> good in your hand. >> >> Personally, a 6" cook's knife is too small for me, I much prefer the 8" >> size. And I've never had a serrated utility knife, that might be >> useful. The 8" knife fits my hand perfectly but my wife is tiny and the 8" is too much for her. She has given me permission to buy her a Wusthof 6" chef's knife. Like I was reluctant to do so. Kind of like when she "made" me purchase a digital camcorder before Christmas. Yeah, real arm twister there! ;-> > Good points > >> So I'd go with the larger set, but that's me, not you. >> -aem > > Thanks for the help. Wusthof is a pretty big investment when you consider that you are buy knives but since I bought my set, I think it was one of the better investments I've ever made. Bret ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =---- |
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The Gran Prix are far superior to the Gourmet line. The former has
forged blades and the latter has stamped blades. Steve Sharpening Made Easy: A Primer on Sharpening Knives and Other Edged Tools by Steve Bottorff Copyright January 2002 Knife World Publications www.sharpeningmadeeasy.com Denise~* wrote: > > OK, I'm taking the plunge & buying new knives. I'm trying to decide > between 2 different Wüsthof sets. I'm not quite sure what the deal is > with these & I can't decide. > > Both of these have been discounted to the same cost so purchase amount > would be the same, but one was originally almost $60.00 more than the > other and comes with less "stuff". Doesn't make sense. I'm not an > expert on knives, so maybe Y'all could help me out here. What makes the > smaller set more valuable than the larger set? > > Here was the "lesser" expensive set > > Wüsthof Traditional Gourmet 7-Piece Block Set > > # Full, seamlessly encased triple-riveted tangs; synthetic > traditional-style handles > # Includes 4-inch parer, 4-1/2-inch utility, 8-inch carver, 8-inch chef's > # Also: shears, 9-inch sharpening steel, 9-slot oak block > # Laser-cut high-carbon steel blade with stain-resistant alloy > # Precise tapering from grinding and polishing procedure > > Product Description > > Review > Representing Wüsthof’s Gourmet series of knives, this block set features > less expensive versions of the knives in the manufacturer’s Classic > series. Knives in the set include a 4-inch parer, 4-1/2-inch serrated > utility, 8-inch chef's, kitchen shears, and 9-inch sharpening steel. > Everything fits within the 9-slot rubber-footed oak block. Although the > blades are still made of high-carbon steel with a stain-resistant alloy, > the difference in the Gourmet series is that the blade is a thinner > quality metal and is cut by a precision laser instead of by hand. The > blade still has an ideal shape as it is ground and polished by computer > to ensure perfect tapering from tip to bolster. Full tangs extend > through the synthetic traditional-style handles, which are > triple-riveted for strength. These knives are dishwasher-safe but > handwashing is recommended to preserve the edges on the blades. The > Gourmet series is an excellent alternative for those who want to own > quality Wüsthof cutlery but are on a budget. > > What's in the Box > 4-inch parer; 4-1/2-inch utility; 8-inch carver; 8-inch chef's; shears; > 9-inch sharpening steel; 9-slot oak block > > Product Description > Wusthof has been make knives in Germany for over 190 years. The fine > high carbon no stain steel retains its edge for a long time and is easy > to sharpen. Gourmet is a laser cut blade. The full tang 3 rivited handle > is sturdy and well balanced. The 7pc set includes, 4" parer, 4.5" > utility serrated, 8"carver, 8"cooks, kitchen shear, 9"sharpening steel, > 9 slot oak block > > Here is the "more" expensive set > > Wüsthof Grand Prix 5-Piece Knife Block Set > > # Full tangs; molded polypropylene handles; lifetime warranty > # Knives include: 6-inch cook's, 8-inch carving, 3-inch paring > # Also includes: 9-inch sharpening steel; 9-slot oak block > # Blades formed of single piece of high-carbon, stain-resistant steel > # Computer-ground, hand-honed blades; precision slicing; longer edge > retention > > Review > This set includes an assortment of short-blade cutlery designed for > chefs with smaller hands. These specialty knives are difficult to find > packaged together. The set contains: a 6-inch cook’s knife--a staple for > chopping meats and vegetables; an 8-inch carving knife for slicing > steaks and roasts; and a 3-inch paring knife for slicing garlic or > peeling fruit. The 9-inch honing steel has a magnetic steel shaft in a > fine to medium grit that sharpens without damaging knife edges. A 9-slot > oak block stores the cutlery in this set, while leaving room for > additional pieces. > > Wüsthof’s Grand Prix knives have the perfect balance of high-carbon, > no-stain steel. Knives retain their edge longer, and never become > discolored. Blades are ground and polished by computer, ensuring perfect > tapering from bolster to tip. Edges are hand-honed for precision > slicing. The tang extends through a slip-free, molded, polypropylene > handle for excellent balance and heft. The knives are > dishwasher-safe--though hand washing is recommended. All Wüsthof cutlery > is covered under a lifetime warranty. --Cristina Vaamonde > What’s in the Box > 6-inch cook’s knife, 8-inch carving knife, 3-inch paring knife, 9-inch > sharpening steel, 9-slot oak block. > > Product Description > This five-piece cutlery collection from the Wüsthof Grand Prix line > outfits your kitchen with everything you need to slice, dice, and chop > all your favorite foods. The set includes a 3-inch paring knife for > peeling fruits and vegetables, a 6-inch utility knife for slicing > mushrooms and mincing garlic, a 6-inch cook's knife for all-purpose > chopping and slicing, a 9-inch sharpening steel, and a nine-slot wooden > storage block. Each knife features a precision-forged high-carbon > stainless-steel blade with a full bolster and tang. The forging process > gives the blades remarkable sharpness and durability, as does the > computer-controlled grinding and polishing process. When the blades > eventually dull, as all blades do, the sharpening steel will re-hone the > edges with a few quick swipes. > > The handles are comfortable in the hands thanks to the slip-free, > pebble-grained grip. Each handle also enhances the balance of the knife > thanks to the full tang and single-piece construction, making them > easier to manipulate and control. Wüsthof recommends hand washing the > cutlery--which comes with a limited lifetime warranty--for best results. > > What's in the Box > 3-inch paring knife, 6-inch utility knife, 6-inch cook's knife, 9-inch > sharpening steel, wooden storage block > > Product Description > Wusthof has been making the finest knives in the world for over 190 > years. Through excellent craftsman ship and engineering the Grand Prix > knife line has become one of the finest in the world. This 5 piece set > includes 3-inch parer, 8-inch carving, 6-inch cooks, 9-inch steel and a > 9-slot storage block. |
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Old post on the taxonomy of wusthof knives:
http://tinyurl.com/3p59y The Grand Prix have better blades, being forged, than the Gourmet are. Essentially, the Grand Prix is the Classic with a different handle. The Grand Prix use the less-expensive plastic molded handles, which some people think are more comfortable than the squared handles of the Classic, though some people think the squared handles are more maneuverable. The Gourmet models use a much cheaper, stamped blade, and they lack the bolster (the metal finger-guard between the handle and blade), so they are overall much cheaper and lighter. The Gourmet do have rivets in the handle, which you may prefer the look of. And it is the squared-off shape of the Classic handle. The discount on the Grand Prix set you're looking at is a very good deal, but, as you noted, you're only getting three knives, where the Gourmet set adds a utility knife and a set of shears. So it's a question of quality vs. functionality, and as the prices are identical, it's up to you. --Blair "Do supply and demand proud." |
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![]() Blair P. Houghton wrote: > Old post on the taxonomy of wusthof knives: > > http://tinyurl.com/3p59y > > The Grand Prix have better blades, being forged, than the Gourmet are. > Essentially, the Grand Prix is the Classic with a different handle. > > The Grand Prix use the less-expensive plastic molded handles, which > some people think are more comfortable than the squared handles of > the Classic, though some people think the squared handles are more > maneuverable. > > The Gourmet models use a much cheaper, stamped blade, > and they lack the bolster (the metal finger-guard between > the handle and blade), so they are overall much cheaper > and lighter. > > The Gourmet do have rivets in the handle, which you may > prefer the look of. And it is the squared-off shape > of the Classic handle. > > The discount on the Grand Prix set you're looking at is > a very good deal, but, as you noted, you're only getting > three knives, where the Gourmet set adds a utility knife > and a set of shears. > > So it's a question of quality vs. functionality, and as the > prices are identical, it's up to you. I'd go with fewer but better quality knives, you can always add later as budget permits... and I have a kitchen shears sitting in a drawer for at least 40 years, never used for shearing, not even once... but it does have bottle cap opening capability that does get occasional use, but a pair of slip joint pliers works just as well. For general kitchen work all anyone really needs is just four knives; a chefs knife, a paring knife, a boning knife, and a bread knife. Sheldon |
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Blair P. Houghton wrote:
snip > So it's a question of quality vs. functionality, and as the > prices are identical, it's up to you. > > --Blair > "Do supply and demand proud." Thank you so much for posting this. I believe I have made my decision now, base on yours & Steve B's responses I alrealy have two kitchen shears, so I'm no so sure if I need another, since I don't really use them that often anyhow, and I know it comes with a Untility knife, but I have tons of serrated knives that I use all the time, I use them everday as a matter of fact just for the purpose of cutting grapes & other fruits for my 2.7 year old. I'm just not so sure if it's that important to me to have another one. I much prefer a better blade than a cheaper one. Thanks! |
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Steve B. wrote:
> The Gran Prix are far superior to the Gourmet line. The former has > forged blades and the latter has stamped blades. > > Steve > Sharpening Made Easy: A Primer on Sharpening Knives and Other Edged > Tools by Steve Bottorff > Copyright January 2002 Knife World Publications > www.sharpeningmadeeasy.com > Thanks! I think I'll take a look at your site too. |
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On 10 Mar 2005 17:30:25 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:
>Blair P. Houghton wrote: <snip> >I'd go with fewer but better quality knives, you can always add later >as budget permits... and I have a kitchen shears sitting in a drawer >for at least 40 years, never used for shearing, not even once... but it >does have bottle cap opening capability that does get occasional use, >but a pair of slip joint pliers works just as well. For general >kitchen work all anyone really needs is just four knives; a chefs >knife, a paring knife, a boning knife, and a bread knife. I'm with Sheldon on this one. I currently have four knives in my block: An 8" Cuisine de France Commercial Sabatier, high carbon stainless steel chef's knife with a moulded handle, _my_ knife. Was $110.00 Cdn at time of purchase. A 8" Lagostina Pro-force stainless steel chef's knife with a riveted handle, the _guest_ knife. Was $75.00 Cdn at time of purchase A generic bread knife, 50 cents at a garage sale. A Farberware Pro stainless steel paring knife, about $17.00 Cdn at time of purchase. I still have to get a boning knife, but it isn't high priority, as I don't do much deboning. Shirley Hicks Toronto, Ontario |
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![]() <snip> > I'd go with fewer but better quality knives, you can always add later > as budget permits... and I have a kitchen shears sitting in a drawer > for at least 40 years, never used for shearing, not even once... but it > does have bottle cap opening capability that does get occasional use, > but a pair of slip joint pliers works just as well. For general > kitchen work all anyone really needs is just four knives; a chefs > knife, a paring knife, a boning knife, and a bread knife. > > Sheldon > How about a nice long slicing knife? |
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![]() Kswck wrote: > <snip> > > > I'd go with fewer but better quality knives, you can always add later > > as budget permits... and I have a kitchen shears sitting in a drawer > > for at least 40 years, never used for shearing, not even once... but it > > does have bottle cap opening capability that does get occasional use, > > but a pair of slip joint pliers works just as well. For general > > kitchen work all anyone really needs is just four knives; a chefs > > knife, a paring knife, a boning knife, and a bread knife. > > > > Sheldon > > > > How about a nice long slicing knife? "long" is not a measurement, and "nice" is the dumbest word ever created. Very few people need to slice anything at home that can't be easily handled with their chefs knife... I can't remember the last time I served a steamboat roast. I have all sorts of slicers/tranchards but I prefer to use an 8" chefs knife to slice all roasts, including 25lb holiday turkeys. When dollars are no object by all means buy out the cutlery shop... but for those on a tight budget, all anyone really needs is the four aforementioned knives... and most folks can do without a boning knife, for home use a quality 3 1/2" parer will do the occasional deboning job just fine... I use an 8" chefs knife to disjoint and debone poultry all the time Sheldon |
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LIke one poster above said, don't buy a set! Take your time and
acquire individual pieces for your hand and favorite uses. I started with an equal number of Wusthof and Henckels. Now any additions are Henckels. I prefer them, better balanced, usually on sale for a greater percentage discount (keep checking Cooking.com, many on sale right now), and they take a home sharpening better. .. Other pieces I have are Chicago Cutlery and Ace Hardware (really). |
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"Sheldon" > wrote in message
ups.com... > > Kswck wrote: >> <snip> >> [snip to restore attributions] >> How about a nice long slicing knife? > > "long" is not a measurement, and "nice" is the dumbest word ever > created. > > Very few people need to slice anything at home that can't be easily > handled with their chefs knife... I can't remember the last time I > served a steamboat roast. I have all sorts of slicers/tranchards but I Tranchelards. ;-) I otherwise agree with Sheldon's assessment. I purchased a Messermeister 10" slicer with the granton edge. It gets used 2-3 time a year, and then only as part of the presentation when we're having guests. Maitre d' knives are more for show than anything else. Marc |
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Sheldon > wrote:
> >"long" is not a measurement, and "nice" is the dumbest word ever >created. All I want to know is how the **** you got out of my killfile. --Blair "Musta spoiled." |
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