Dave Smith wrote:
> jmcquown wrote:
>
> >
> > To my understanding, Vegans don't eat any animal products at all.
Strictly
> > vegetables and grains. No butter, no nothing that has anything to
do with
> > animals including butter or milk from cows or goats. Strict Vegans
also
> > won't eat honey although I have no idea what this has to do with
"animal"
> > products since bees aren't animals. Vegetarians are more moderate,
using
> > dairy products including cheese, butter but won't eat meat, fish or
poultry.
>
> From what I can gather, veganism is a way of living that excludes all
forms of
> exploitation of animals.
>
> BTW.... Bees are animals. Their view is that bees are enslaved and
exploited in
> order to produce honey. In reality, and that may be a difficult
concept for
> vegans to wrap their heads around, only one bee in a hive is
enslaved. That is
> the queen. The rest of the bees are free to come and go as they
please. If
> something happens to the queen the whole hive will get up and move.
>
> It is fascinating that something like honey can not be vegan because
it involves
> the exploitation of an animal that has a natural tendency to live
wherever there
> is a queen and spends its entire live flying back and forth to gather
pollen
> without any training at all. Yet Vegans generally espouse the virtues
of organic
> farming. That means that they use shit for fertilizer. Most of that
shit comes
> from cows and other animals on farms that are raising them for meat,
or milk.
>
> I wonder how they would ever have survived in the 19th century,
before the days
> of mechanized tractors. Farmers generally used horses or oxen to work
their
> fields. They used them to pull plows, the haul wagons, to operate
various types
> of farm equipment. The entire agricultural system replied almost
entirely on the
> exploitation of animals.

Most of the world still exploits animals for farming, the human
animal.... besides all the world's rice paddys lookit all those illegal
beaners pickin' veggies... even if they ain't quite human they are
indeed animals.

Anyways, there ain't any such thing as a vegetarian/vegan, every last
one of them
cheats regularly.

Sheldon

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> On Fri 18 Mar 2005 09:07:38p, Dave Smith wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
> > From what I can gather, veganism is a way of living that excludes
all
> > forms of exploitation of animals.
> >
>
> These must be the same people that wear plastic shoes.

Plastic is made from petroleum/oil, which once was animals.

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Ophelia wrote:
>
>> A vegetarian friend of mine says he will eat nothing with a face
>
> ...so eggs, jellyfish, clams, oysters, and scallops would be okay? (I'm
> not sure it's accurate to say that skate has a face, either.)
>
> Or was he just being glib?

Not sure I will ask him next time I see him

Sheldon wrote:

>
> > I wonder how they would ever have survived in the 19th century,
> before the days
> > of mechanized tractors. Farmers generally used horses or oxen to work
> their
> > fields. They used them to pull plows, the haul wagons, to operate
> various types
> > of farm equipment. The entire agricultural system replied almost
> entirely on the
> > exploitation of animals.
>
> Most of the world still exploits animals for farming, the human
> animal.... besides all the world's rice paddys lookit all those illegal
> beaners pickin' veggies... even if they ain't quite human they are
> indeed animals.

They may consider human exploitation on another level. From my experience,
people who are overly concerned with animal welfare usually don't care
about humans. Animals are still used in most forms of agricultural, and
the more "organic" the farming the more we use animals. I wonder if most
people realize how important bees are to agriculture. Most orchard owners
around here either own their own bees or pay a local apiary to bring hives
in to their orchards because are fundamental to flower fertilization, and
having active bee hives close to an orchard increases productivity by as
much as 50%. Worms are another animal vital to our agriculture. As they
burrow through the ground they leave castings (worm shit) full of useful
fertilizer, and their tunnels help with aeration and drainage of the soil.
Organic farmers use bug warfare to protect their gardens from pests. They
will use certain types of insects in their gardens in order to keep the
food free of others.

It is bad enough that these poor misguided vegans are denying themselves
some of the basic foods of the human diet, but they are being duped into
buying "organic" foods which exploit more animals than the large,
chemically assisted, commercial operations.





>
>
> Anyways, there ain't any such thing as a vegetarian/vegan, every last
> one of them
> cheats regularly.
>
> Sheldon

On Sat 19 Mar 2005 07:04:16a, Ophelia wrote in rec.food.cooking:

>
> "Bob" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ophelia wrote:
>>
>>> A vegetarian friend of mine says he will eat nothing with a face
>>
>> ...so eggs, jellyfish, clams, oysters, and scallops would be okay? (I'm
>> not sure it's accurate to say that skate has a face, either.)
>>
>> Or was he just being glib?
>
> Not sure I will ask him next time I see him

LOL! Not to forget Pansies! :-) I've seen them served in salads.

--
Wayne Boatwright
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat 19 Mar 2005 07:04:16a, Ophelia wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>>
>> "Bob" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Ophelia wrote:
>>>
>>>> A vegetarian friend of mine says he will eat nothing with a face
>>>
>>> ...so eggs, jellyfish, clams, oysters, and scallops would be okay? (I'm
>>> not sure it's accurate to say that skate has a face, either.)
>>>
>>> Or was he just being glib?
>>
>> Not sure I will ask him next time I see him
>
> LOL! Not to forget Pansies! :-) I've seen them served in salads.

Pansies???????? I never saw that

One time on Usenet, Dave Smith > said:

<snip>

> They can boycott meat until the cows come home.

Heh -- this would make a great sig quote...

--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"You still haven't explained why the pool is
filled with elf blood." - Frylock, ATHF

Dave Smith wrote:

<snip>

> It is fascinating that something like honey can not be vegan because
it involves
> the exploitation of an animal that has a natural tendency to live
wherever there
> is a queen and spends its entire live flying back and forth to gather
pollen
> without any training at all. Yet Vegans generally espouse the virtues
of organic
> farming. That means that they use shit for fertilizer. Most of that
shit comes
> from cows and other animals on farms that are raising them for meat,
or milk.

Honey by definition is vegan because it is derived directly from
animals. But many vegans (or people who claim to be vegans, if you get
off on identifying hypocrisy in all forms) don't consider it a major
transgression to eat honey and do so. Many vegans, believe it or not,
are fairly reasonable people and realize that it is impossible to exist
on Earth without doing some damage to the environment and killing some
lifeforms. They still prefer to minimize the damage. Why does it have
to be all or nothing?--commit suicide or eat meat everyday?

> I wonder how they would ever have survived in the 19th century,
before the days
> of mechanized tractors. Farmers generally used horses or oxen to work
their
> fields. They used them to pull plows, the haul wagons, to operate
various types
> of farm equipment. The entire agricultural system replied almost
entirely on the
> exploitation of animals.

Only a dumbass vegan would say that veganism is a way of eating that
should be adopted all over the world, and should have been practiced by
everyone in the past. It's only viable in a society with the means such
that people can survive without eating animal products. That wasn't
always possible. it's still not possible, or at least not healthy, for
people who don't have the time and money to consider how they're
getting their B12, etc. It's a luxury, in a sense. The reasoning for
many is that if we *can* do it, we should; not that it should be done
in all cases no matter what the cost.

There a lot of proselytizing vegetarians and vegans whose behavior is
hypocritical, but I think it's unfair to denounce all of them. (I, by
the way, am neither vegan nor vegetarian. But I don't resent those who
are. I don't understand why so many people seem to take it as a
personal affront.)

Uh, I meant honey by definition is NOT vegan.

One time on Usenet, "Crush on Lyle" > said:

> Uh, I meant honey by definition is NOT vegan.

I wondered about that...

--
J.J. in WA ~ mom, vid gamer, novice cook ~
"You still haven't explained why the pool is
filled with elf blood." - Frylock, ATHF

Ophelia wrote:
> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Maverick wrote:
> >> "Dave Smith" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> Dan Abel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> I don't agree with Dave's attitude on this, but he is correct in
> >>>> posting
> >>>> that many people give a vegetarian diet a try for a year or so
and
> >>>> then
> >>>> give it up.
> >>> You don't agree with my attitude? My attitude is that I am not
> >>> interested
> >>> in
> >>> indulging people who are temporarily adopting a diet that is
> >>> different
> >>> from
> >>> mine.
> >>
> >> Thankfully, I don't have any vegetarian/vegan (didn't know there
was a
> >> difference) friends. Our friends all agree with Ron White's
> >> statement of "I didn't climb to the top of the f*cking food chain
to
> >> eat carrots!"
> >>
> >> Bret
> >>
> > To my understanding, Vegans don't eat any animal products at all.
> > Strictly
> > vegetables and grains. No butter, no nothing that has anything to
do with
> > animals including butter or milk from cows or goats. Strict Vegans
also
> > won't eat honey although I have no idea what this has to do with
"animal"
> > products since bees aren't animals. Vegetarians are more moderate,
using
> > dairy products including cheese, butter but won't eat meat, fish or

> > poultry.
>
> A vegetarian friend of mine says he will eat nothing with a face
>
> O

Probably doesn't stop him from stuffing his meat in any face he can
get. hehe

Peter Aitken > wrote:

> Anyone who eats fish is not a vegetarian. Case closed.

I call 'em pesco-vegetarians. There's a lot of them out there.

Steve

Steve Pope wrote:
> Peter Aitken > wrote:
>
> > Anyone who eats fish is not a vegetarian. Case closed.
>
> I call 'em pesco-vegetarians. There's a lot of them out there.
>
> Steve

Nonsense... those are called pelicans.

Sheldon

Crush on Lyle wrote:

> Honey by definition is vegan because it is derived directly from
> animals. But many vegans (or people who claim to be vegans, if you get
> off on identifying hypocrisy in all forms) don't consider it a major
> transgression to eat honey and do so. Many vegans, believe it or not,
> are fairly reasonable people and realize that it is impossible to exist
> on Earth without doing some damage to the environment and killing some
> lifeforms. They still prefer to minimize the damage. Why does it have
> to be all or nothing?--commit suicide or eat meat everyday?

Extremism seems to be what some people prefer. I would put milk products
in the category as honey. You don't have kill a cow to get milk from it,
though cows that stop producing usually end up in someone's oven.


> Only a dumbass vegan would say that veganism is a way of eating that
> should be adopted all over the world, and should have been practiced by
> everyone in the past. It's only viable in a society with the means such
> that people can survive without eating animal products.

The vegans I have known would never espouse it as a way of life for
everyone. It's a rebellious sort of life style that differentiates them
from the rest of the world.


> There a lot of proselytizing vegetarians and vegans whose behavior is
> hypocritical, but I think it's unfair to denounce all of them. (I, by
> the way, am neither vegan nor vegetarian. But I don't resent those who
> are. I don't understand why so many people seem to take it as a personal
> affront.)

I don't take it as a personal front. I just refuse to cater to them. I
once had a vegan show up at our place for a Christmas gathering. My
nephew's daughter, unbeknownst to me, was (temporarily) a vegan. I didn't
know she was a vegan and I didn't know that she was coming. Her father had
put some vegan goodies together for her but forgot them at home. As we were
trying to put dinner for 16 on the table my wife was running around trying
to find something that would suit her diet. This same girl, just a year
and a half later, was sitting across from me at a brunch buffet chowing
down on a plate full of ham, eggs, chicken and fish. Just like every other
vegetarian I have ever known she went back to the pleasures of eating
flesh.

Dave Smith wrote:

> Extremism seems to be what some people prefer. I would put milk
products
> in the category as honey. You don't have kill a cow to get milk from
it,
> though cows that stop producing usually end up in someone's oven.

I think that's sort of fair--in that if you own your own cow and treat
it well and milk it everyday, no one is really being hurt. It can also
be true on small, well-run farms. Vegans don't drink milk because they
believe that cows suffer on commercial dairy farms. The milking itself
doesn't hurt them, but the way they are raised and treated does. The
dairy industry also feeds the veal industry, as the male cows have to
go somewhere.

> The vegans I have known would never espouse it as a way of life for
> everyone. It's a rebellious sort of life style that differentiates
them
> from the rest of the world.

Yes, there is often an element of that. Also, a very large percentage
of female vegans have eating disorders.

> I don't take it as a personal front. I just refuse to cater to them.
I
> once had a vegan show up at our place for a Christmas gathering. My
> nephew's daughter, unbeknownst to me, was (temporarily) a vegan. I
didn't
> know she was a vegan and I didn't know that she was coming. Her
father had
> put some vegan goodies together for her but forgot them at home. As
we were
> trying to put dinner for 16 on the table my wife was running around
trying
> to find something that would suit her diet. This same girl, just a
year
> and a half later, was sitting across from me at a brunch buffet
chowing
> down on a plate full of ham, eggs, chicken and fish. Just like every
other
> vegetarian I have ever known she went back to the pleasures of eating
> flesh.

I don't think you should have to cater to them. If you have peculiar
eating habits, you should know that once you leave your own home you
have to fend for yourself in the food department.

Bob wrote:
> Ophelia wrote:
>
>
>>A vegetarian friend of mine says he will eat nothing with a face
>
>
> ...so eggs, jellyfish, clams, oysters, and scallops would be okay? (I'm not
> sure it's accurate to say that skate has a face, either.)
>
> Or was he just being glib?
>
> Bob
>
>

The last time some clown sounded off with that line in my presence, I
asked if science were to develop the proper tools and then actually
determine that fruits and vegetables do, indeed, have a "face," would he
then do us the favor of starving himself to death.

Most of the vegetarians who say things like that are being deliberately
off-putting and adversarial. They clearly do not understand how to win
friends and influence people. They deserve whatever slap in the face you
care to deliver.


jim

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 21:29:56 -0800, spamtrap > wrote:

>Rodney Myrvaagnes wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 15:09:51 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Ginny Sher" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Black beans give some people MUCH worse digestive discomfort than other
>>>>>kinds of beans. Pain, in other words. I'd avoid that idea if I were you,
>>>>>unless you know these people already like black beans in their various
>>>>>forms.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thanks for the heads-up. I'm pretty sure these people eat a lot of
>>>>beans regularly so I don't think there would be any problem.
>>>>
>>>>Ginny
>>>
>>>I wasn't clear about this. I know people who eat beans 10 times a week.
>>>Kidney beans, pinto beans, fava beans, navy beans, all kinds. They get VERY
>>>nasty reactions to black beans.
>>>
>>>It does NOT matter how often your guests eat other beans. Your conclusion
>>>that "there wouldn't be any problem" is based on air. Go ahead with your
>>>plans, but have another side dish ready in case you see people avoiding the
>>>black beans.
>>>
>>
>>
>> This is news to me. I love black beans, and have never seen anyone
>> avoid them.
>>
>>
>
>I have to wonder if this is some type of twisted racial slur. A bean is
>pretty much a bean. Why would he state "I wasn't clear about this. I
>know people who eat beans 10 times a week. Kidney beans, pinto beans,
>fava beans, navy beans, all kinds. They get VERY nasty reactions to
>black beans." if not for a some ethnocentric reason? It's not like black
>beans are poisonous or anything.
>

"Ethnocentric slur"??? You lost me there. Maybe I'm just stupid.

I guess lactose intolerance could be called ethnocentric. Is it
something like that?

My bean books don't say any special precautions are needed for black
beans vis a vis other kinds.

I wouldn't want to cause distress to any guests, of whatever
ethnicity.




Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Let us restore integrity and honor to the White House

Ginny Sher wrote:
> A few friends are coming over for dinner for game night. There will
> be 6 of us including my best friend and her husband. He is
vegetarian
> (eats seafood & dairy)

Then he's not vegetarian.

-L.

On 19 Mar 2005 23:11:26 -0800, "-L." > wrote:

>
>Ginny Sher wrote:
>> A few friends are coming over for dinner for game night. There will
>> be 6 of us including my best friend and her husband. He is
>vegetarian
>> (eats seafood & dairy)
>
>Then he's not vegetarian.
>
>-L.

Yah... I know he's not a vegetarian in a technical sense and I shoulda
just said he only eats seafood. I probably could have listed the
foods that each of them will and won't eat, but it was too lengthy. I
really only meant to impart that each person had very specific foods
they either *could* eat due to doctors orders or *would* eat due to
personal choice.

One eats seafood, preferably cooked in a low-fat method and isn't
supposed to eat cheese, butter, hi sodium, etc. but he does on
occasion. She eats seafood but won't touch cheese, butter, meat, dairy
(unless ff), oil, peanut butter, avocado or pretty much anything with
fat in it.

I know, I know many of you will tell me to tell her that her diet
isn't healthy; that a body needs some fat, etc. It's futile, she's
been like this for decades and is not going to change now. She is my
best friend so I deal with it. I will go out of my way to make sure
her salad has ff dressing and the veggies or whatever, don't have any
oil or butter on them. Usually, we have some condiment like salsa to
place on an entree or vegetable dish when necessary. Her meal was
largely like ours except:

She ate her artichoke plain
She had ff salad dressing over her greens and I did not use any nuts
in her salad.
I served some french bread along with the cornbread for her.
Dessert for her was a plate of strawberries with some blueberries
sprinkled in to look pretty and a little bowl each of ff greek yogurt
and brown sugar to dip the berries in.
She had the salmon with rasp. chipotle sauce because that had no fat
in it and the asparagus.

The only thing she didn't eat was the cornbread and the key lime
cheesecake. Otherwise, it was the same meal. No biggie.

Ginny

Ginny Sher wrote:
> Yah... I know he's not a vegetarian in a technical sense and I
shoulda
> just said he only eats seafood.

Sorry, it's just my pet peeve....people who say "I'm a vegetarian but I
eat chicken." or "I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish." Drives me nuts.


> I probably could have listed the
> foods that each of them will and won't eat, but it was too lengthy.
I
> really only meant to impart that each person had very specific foods
> they either *could* eat due to doctors orders or *would* eat due to
> personal choice.
>
> One eats seafood, preferably cooked in a low-fat method and isn't
> supposed to eat cheese, butter, hi sodium, etc. but he does on
> occasion. She eats seafood but won't touch cheese, butter, meat,
dairy
> (unless ff), oil, peanut butter, avocado or pretty much anything with
> fat in it.
>
> I know, I know many of you will tell me to tell her that her diet
> isn't healthy; that a body needs some fat, etc. It's futile, she's
> been like this for decades and is not going to change now. She is my
> best friend so I deal with it. I will go out of my way to make sure
> her salad has ff dressing and the veggies or whatever, don't have any
> oil or butter on them. Usually, we have some condiment like salsa to
> place on an entree or vegetable dish when necessary. Her meal was
> largely like ours except:
>
> She ate her artichoke plain
> She had ff salad dressing over her greens and I did not use any nuts
> in her salad.
> I served some french bread along with the cornbread for her.
> Dessert for her was a plate of strawberries with some blueberries
> sprinkled in to look pretty and a little bowl each of ff greek yogurt
> and brown sugar to dip the berries in.
> She had the salmon with rasp. chipotle sauce because that had no fat
> in it and the asparagus.
>
> The only thing she didn't eat was the cornbread and the key lime
> cheesecake. Otherwise, it was the same meal. No biggie.
>
> Ginny

Sounds like it worked out pretty well. I don't understand how
someone could turn down key lime cheesecake, though...(Did you post the
recipe? - I will look for it!)

-L.

<snip other stuff>

>> She ate her artichoke plain
>> She had ff salad dressing over her greens and I did not use any nuts
>> in her salad.
>> I served some french bread along with the cornbread for her.
>> Dessert for her was a plate of strawberries with some blueberries
>> sprinkled in to look pretty and a little bowl each of ff greek yogurt
>> and brown sugar to dip the berries in.
>> She had the salmon with rasp. chipotle sauce because that had no fat
>> in it and the asparagus.
>>
>> The only thing she didn't eat was the cornbread and the key lime
>> cheesecake. Otherwise, it was the same meal. No biggie.
>>
>> Ginny
>
>Sounds like it worked out pretty well. I don't understand how
>someone could turn down key lime cheesecake, though...(Did you post the
>recipe? - I will look for it!)
>
>-L.


The cheesecake was made in a 9" springform pan, so you can imagine
that it easily sliced into 8 servings, more if you would prefer to
make really small slices. There were 6 people, including my friend
who didn't touch it. I had the equivalent of one-half slice and
nothing was left. Many of the other guests had seconds... I guess it
was good, if I say so myself. The funny thing about the recipe is
that it was one of the easiest desserts I've ever made. Here is the
recipe:

Easy Key Lime Cheesecake

Use one graham cracker crust.

1 lb cream cheese, softened
3/4 cup fresh lime juice
1 (14 ounce) can sweetened condensed milk
1 tsp finely grated fresh lime zest

In a food processor blend cream cheese, lime juice and condensed milk
until smooth. Add zest and pulse just until combined. Pour filling
into shell. Cool in fridge for at least 6 hours.
You can top it with Cool Whip® or whipped cream...and you can put
slices of lime on top for decoration

Recipe Type: Cakes, Dessert, Fruit
Recipe Source: Author: Annet222 at recipegoldmine.com May 22, 2001

"spamtrap" > wrote in message
news:9MO_d.260069$0u.222587@fed1read04...

>>>
>>>It does NOT matter how often your guests eat other beans. Your conclusion
>>>that "there wouldn't be any problem" is based on air. Go ahead with your
>>>plans, but have another side dish ready in case you see people avoiding
>>>the black beans.
>>
>>
>> This is news to me. I love black beans, and have never seen anyone
>> avoid them.
>>
>>
>
> I have to wonder if this is some type of twisted racial slur. A bean is
> pretty much a bean. Why would he state "I wasn't clear about this. I know
> people who eat beans 10 times a week. Kidney beans, pinto beans, fava
> beans, navy beans, all kinds. They get VERY nasty reactions to black
> beans." if not for a some ethnocentric reason? It's not like black beans
> are poisonous or anything.

Oh boy. You must have a few lawyers on retainer, "just in case". :-)

Did I err by not being very specific when I said "I know people"? Here you
go: A vast extended Puerto Rican family, in Puerto Rico, who revel in the
fact that beans are a huge part of their traditional cooking. I'm talking
about something like 75 people, all of whom I first met at a family party.
Since food is a common subject at almost ANY party, anywhere, quite a few of
them asked if I'd been to PR before (I had) and if I enjoyed the cuisine. I
mentioned having fallen in love with black bean soup when I visited PR as a
kid with my parents. At least a half dozen people said black beans caused
them quite a bit of gastric distress (cramps, not just "more gas"). These
were not people with unusual health problems or anything. A couple were
teenagers.

As far as whether they're poisonous, nobody said that. However, if you think
they're just like a kidney bean or navy bean in a different color, we will
excuse you for having been playing with yourself during biology classes.
They are genetically different, just like a Cortland apple is different from
an Ida Red apple. Black beans cook differently, they taste different, they
feel different, they smell different.

I like them, but not everyone has fun with them.

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>
>> I wasn't clear about this. I know people who eat beans 10 times a
> week.
>> Kidney beans, pinto beans, fava beans, navy beans, all kinds. They
> get VERY
>> nasty reactions to black beans.
>
> Something beyond what a tablet of Beano couldn't cure?
>
> -j.
>

I guess. I didn't push it that far in the conversations. If black beans gave
me intense cramps, it would be worth my trouble to try Beano, because I love
black beans. Other people.....maybe not.

"-L." > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Ginny Sher wrote:
>> Yah... I know he's not a vegetarian in a technical sense and I
> shoulda
>> just said he only eats seafood.
>
> Sorry, it's just my pet peeve....people who say "I'm a vegetarian but I
> eat chicken." or "I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish." Drives me nuts.

I love the ones who say they won't eat beef or chicken because of how badly
the animals are treated, but they'll eat fish, because everyone knows fish
don't feel pain "the same way". Right. Fish like to be hauled onto the deck
of a ship, dumped there to suffocate, and often gutten & filleted while
they're still kickin'.

Give me one of THAT kind of "vegetarian", a car battery, terminal clamps,
and two hours, and I'll get at the truth. :-)

In article >, Dave Smith
> wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:
>
> > I don't agree with Dave's attitude on this, but he is correct in posting
> > that many people give a vegetarian diet a try for a year or so and then
> > give it up.


> You don't agree with my attitude? My attitude is that I am not interested in
> indulging people who are temporarily adopting a diet that is different from
> mine.


You really have no idea whether it is temporary or not. And lots of
people have diets that are different than yours. And we don't "indulge"
our daughter, at least about her diet. If we are having hot dogs, then
she gets a fake corn dog out of the freezer and nukes it.


> > My son tried a vegetarian diet for about a year and then gave it up. On
> > the other hand, my daughter went vegetarian at 13 and not only stuck it
> > out for 6 years, but has now gone vegan (she gave up eggs and dairy).
>
> I am sure that you can appreciate that she is more the exception than
the rule.
> Care to make a bet that she will stick to it forever?

No bets. But 13 is pretty young to make such a major decision, and 6
years is pretty much a lifetime when you are 19. I wouldn't be surprised
if she drops the vegan thing, but stays vegetarian for the rest of her
life. My sister turned vegetarian about 15 years ago, and at her age, I
expect she'll never go back to eating meat.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

Dave Smith > wrote:

> Crush on Lyle wrote:
>
> > Honey by definition is vegan because it is derived directly from
> > animals. But many vegans (or people who claim to be vegans, if you get
> > off on identifying hypocrisy in all forms) don't consider it a major
> > transgression to eat honey and do so. Many vegans, believe it or not,
> > are fairly reasonable people and realize that it is impossible to exist
> > on Earth without doing some damage to the environment and killing some
> > lifeforms. They still prefer to minimize the damage. Why does it have
> > to be all or nothing?--commit suicide or eat meat everyday?
>
> Extremism seems to be what some people prefer. I would put milk products
> in the category as honey. You don't have kill a cow to get milk from it,
> though cows that stop producing usually end up in someone's oven.

And the calves they have to bear to keep them bearing milk are taken
from their mamas and become veal. It's a complicated cycle. I think
that most folks would feel worse about the way that those calves live
than about the loss of some bees, but that's just my own impression.

> > Only a dumbass vegan would say that veganism is a way of eating that
> > should be adopted all over the world, and should have been practiced by
> > everyone in the past. It's only viable in a society with the means such
> > that people can survive without eating animal products.
>
> The vegans I have known would never espouse it as a way of life for
> everyone. It's a rebellious sort of life style that differentiates them
> from the rest of the world.

Or it feels ethically right for them. Even at my strictest vegan
moments, I never told anyone else what they should do, and I don't feel
rebellious about it. I'm a simple person trying to live the most
ethical and joyful life I can manage. My food choices are a part of
that for me, but I don't have any feelings at all about what others
should choose regarding food (or, really, much else).

> > There a lot of proselytizing vegetarians and vegans whose behavior is
> > hypocritical, but I think it's unfair to denounce all of them. (I, by
> > the way, am neither vegan nor vegetarian. But I don't resent those who
> > are. I don't understand why so many people seem to take it as a personal
> > affront.)
>
> I don't take it as a personal front. I just refuse to cater to them. I
> once had a vegan show up at our place for a Christmas gathering. My
> nephew's daughter, unbeknownst to me, was (temporarily) a vegan. I didn't
> know she was a vegan and I didn't know that she was coming. Her father had
> put some vegan goodies together for her but forgot them at home. As we were
> trying to put dinner for 16 on the table my wife was running around trying
> to find something that would suit her diet. This same girl, just a year
> and a half later, was sitting across from me at a brunch buffet chowing
> down on a plate full of ham, eggs, chicken and fish. Just like every other
> vegetarian I have ever known she went back to the pleasures of eating
> flesh.

I have known lifelong vegetarians, but to your example I say that that
girl was being extremely rude by not alerting you beforehand that she
wished special dietary considerations, and your wife was a saint for
being such a wonderful host.

serene

--
http://serenejournal.livejournal.com
http://www.jhuger.com