Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> My question has to do with polite actions on the part of people who
> don't share the religious belief. Is it more considerate for me to
> spell it G-d too, or is that affected, acting as though that's important
> to me when it isn't. I finally decided to spell the word God unless
> specifically asked not to by people I love and respect.
>


I generally write out "God" or use the pronouns "He" or "Him" or "His",
unless I am quoting from the old testament and it is translated "the LORD".
(The use of masculine pronouns is not meant to imply maleness to the
exclusion of femaleness, it's just the way the English language works.)

<big> BUT </big> if I am writing in a Jewish newsgroup, or addressing
someone I know is an observant Jew, I use "G-d" out of respect for their
custom -- whether I love and respect the people or not.

Best regards,
Bob

Margaret Suran wrote:

> It is all right if you "munge" it, by using a dash instead of the "o".
> No Orthodox Jew would ever say or write the word "G-d", not in Hebrew
> and not in English or whatever language. Even in prayers, as far as I
> know, there are other words used, instead. Help, someone, Maxine,
> aren't you from an Orthodox background?

Spelling it as "G-d" is merely a custom that has come about and does not have
to do with taking the name of G-d in vain as far as I am aware though it does
have to do with respect. In some prayer books G-d's name has been contracted
to 2 yuds instead of yud-key-vov-key.

regards,
Ben

In article >, Margaret Suran
> wrote:

> Donna Rose wrote:
> > I'm curious about why you don't spell out the word "God". Please
> > understand, I'm not making a value judgement about it, I'm simply
> > curious.
>
>
> "Thou shalt not take the name........"
>
> Therefore, Jews write G-d instead, even the ones who do not believe
> in a Superior Being. They are the ones who are very superstitious
> instead of being religious.


Aha! You're not superstitious, are you?
--
-Barb, <www.jamlady.eboard.com> updated 3-29-04.

in article , Ben at
wrote on 3/31/04 11:14 PM:

> Sheryl Rosen wrote:
>> Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
>> 5 Stars to your friend's mom!
>
> Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her religion,
> but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show rather than a
> commitment to what they believe in.
>
> regards,
> Ben

The person requesting the milk was not committed to keeping Kashruth.
Whether the hostess was or not is not at issue. Hospitality is making your
guests comfortable and happy. Explaining to a young woman about kashruth
might have made her feel bad. Why go through all that?

In article >,
Terry Pulliam Burd > wrote:

> I'm not Jewish, but I was once invited to a Passover Seder (seder?)
> and scrambled around to find an offering to bring. I made potato
> latkes and they turned out to be amazing - I make them regularly:
>
> @@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format
>
> Potato Latkes
>
> vegetables
>
> 4 medium potatoes; peeled
> 2 large yellow onions
> 4 large eggs; lightly beaten
> 1/3 cup matzo meal
> 2 teaspoons salt
> pepper; to taste
> 3/4 cup peanut oil


Peanut oil isn't kosher for Passover (for most Jews).

--
to respond, change "spamless.invalid" with "optonline.net"
please mail OT responses only

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 10:43:19 -0500, Ben > wrote:
snipped
> From the Jewish
>perspective, we look to G-d to see what He wants and not double guess things
>either. From the *Jewish* (and I mean "orthodox" when I say that) perspective
>this means we have a tradition dating back to Moses
snipped
> While it may not be held against that person for drinking milk after
>meat because that person due to their circumstances does not know better, it
>*CAN* be held against the person who gives it who *DOES* in fact know better
>(from the Torah perspective at least and if you believe in the Torah then that
>is what you follow).
>
>Also, a gracious host can be just as gracious while explaining in a nice way
>what is what. It can be done discretely. There is no reason to embarass anyone
>(in fact forbidden from the Jewish perspective).
>
>regards,
>Ben

Ben I believe ( and I may be wrong) that Jews that keep Kosher, do so
as a agreement with God.
The 16 year old may not have made the same agreement, and therefore
did not violate his understand as to what God requires of him. And
the hostess action not only did not insult him by suggesting that he
is some way inferior in Gods eye but she further did not insult those
keeping kosher at her table.

Pan Ohco

Pan Ohco wrote:
> Ben I believe ( and I may be wrong) that Jews that keep Kosher, do so
> as a agreement with God.
> The 16 year old may not have made the same agreement, and therefore
> did not violate his understand as to what God requires of him. And
> the hostess action not only did not insult him by suggesting that he
> is some way inferior in Gods eye but she further did not insult those
> keeping kosher at her table.

Not quite right, but the main point here is that a Jew is a Jew and someone
who is not orthodox is not inferior compared to someone who is. The fact of
the matter is that your average orthodox person will view the non-orthodox as
someone who hasn't had the proper education and upbringing in order to
understand what it means to keep Jewish law and therefore they would not be
held liable for not doing what is expected of them. On the other hand that is
not a leniency with regards to the orthodox person himslef (or herself)
dealing with the non-orthodox who is still 100% bound by G-d's law which he
believes in and needs to follow.

Judaism teaches that people should be treated with honour and decency whether
or not they are Orthodox, non-Orthodox or not even Jewish. Granted we are not
perfect but that is the ideal we look towards and it certainly can be done
within the guidelines of Jewish law.

regards,
Ben

Pan Ohco wrote:

> The 16 year old may not have made the same agreement, and therefore
> did not violate his understand as to what God requires of him. And
> the hostess action not only did not insult him by suggesting that he
> is some way inferior in Gods eye but she further did not insult those
> keeping kosher at her table.


The 16 year old is a SHE! I realize anything goes on usenet, but this
seeing myself referred to in the 3rd person is plain weird. Other than
that, I agree with you. I think my hostess came up with a brilliant way
to be gracious to me while not being insulting to anyone else. That's
why people smile when they hear the story.


Mrs. Lieberman kept a kosher home according to kosher laws as they
pertain to Conservative Judaism. Whatever the Orthodox think of those
laws is another story. Her family attended a Conservative shul.


--Lia

"Ben" > wrote in message
...
> Sheryl Rosen wrote:
> > Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
> > 5 Stars to your friend's mom!
>
> Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her
religion,
> but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show rather than
a
> commitment to what they believe in.
>
> regards,
> Ben

Making value judgments about people and their practice of their religion are
you?

I suppose you are 100% honest 100% of the time with your spouse regardless
of the consequences.

Dimitri

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 18:26:19 GMT, "Dimitri" >
wrote:

>
>"Ben" > wrote in message
...
>> Sheryl Rosen wrote:
>> > Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
>> > 5 Stars to your friend's mom!
>>
>> Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her
>religion,
>> but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show rather than
>a
>> commitment to what they believe in.
>>
>> regards,
>> Ben
>
>Making value judgments about people and their practice of their religion are
>you?
>
>I suppose you are 100% honest 100% of the time with your spouse regardless
>of the consequences.
>
>Dimitri

Beyond his honesty or lack of it, is a serious intolerance for
religious practices other than his own. His remarks about Conservative
and Reform Judaism were condescending and rude.

Those who feel that their religion is the One True Path and yet
denigrate the beliefs and practices of others, have lost sight of one
the greatest teachings that religion offers.

Boron

On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 03:19:59 GMT, Sheryl Rosen
> wrote:

>in article , Ben at
>wrote on 3/31/04 11:14 PM:
>
>> Sheryl Rosen wrote:
>>> Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
>>> 5 Stars to your friend's mom!
>>
>> Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her religion,
>> but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show rather than a
>> commitment to what they believe in.
>>
>> regards,
>> Ben
>
>The person requesting the milk was not committed to keeping Kashruth.
>Whether the hostess was or not is not at issue. Hospitality is making your
>guests comfortable and happy. Explaining to a young woman about kashruth
>might have made her feel bad. Why go through all that?

couldn't she just use a *milchik* glass?

your pal,
blake

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> The 16 year old is a SHE! I realize anything goes on usenet, but this

Sorry. I actually knew that. Typo :-)

> Mrs. Lieberman kept a kosher home according to kosher laws as they
> pertain to Conservative Judaism. Whatever the Orthodox think of those
> laws is another story. Her family attended a Conservative shul.

Ah. Then what I said is totally irrelevant. It made the assumption that it was
a Torah home. I don't even see what the issue is in that case. Though I guess
conservative have different levels of similarities to orthodox Judaism to the
point where maybe they actually view Kashrus somewhat seriously as long as it
suits them.

regards,
Ben

--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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Boron Elgar wrote:
> Beyond his honesty or lack of it, is a serious intolerance for

No one is perfect. We try and hopefully work on improving ourselves. I don't
see the relevance of what the poster you are responding to said. Regarding
making judgments about religions - I make decisions based on my knowledge and
as my knowledge improves so does my outlook on a particular thing. It might
even change as a result. I can admit that I am wrong. But the issue here is
being accused of intolerance because I don't believe in the "truths" pushed by
a completely different religion trying to fool people by using the term
"Judaism". LIke I said already - in the commercial world this is called
trademark infringement and is illegal (at least in the U.S.)

I have no problem if these religions did not insult a religion thousands of
years older than them. Let them claim they are the truth - everyone else is.
At least Christianity doesn't call itself Judaism - even though like I already
mentioned they have good reason to considering their religion believes they
are the Jews of today. At least they believe that the Torah is divine - unlike
many Reform "Rabbis" who according to a poll I once saw don't even believe in G-d!

> religious practices other than his own. His remarks about Conservative
> and Reform Judaism were condescending and rude.

In short I don't believe religions other than Judaism represent the truth. I
can accept that they believe they do, but have no reason to believe their so
called truths. If I did, I wouldn't be practicing Judaism - I'd be following
whatever that religion was. You can be sure a buddist is not going to say
Judaism represents the truth and the word of G-d. Is that intolerance to you?
Not believing that every religion is right in their claims. I understand that
a Christian believes that his beliefs reflect the truth and I can accept that
and have no problem with it. I can accept that Reform believes it represents
the true too. But I certainly do not have to believe in their "truths" myself.
Are you a bigot for not believing in orthodox Judaism? Why do you insult
orthodox Judaism that way? Why are *you* so intolerant?

> Those who feel that their religion is the One True Path and yet
> denigrate the beliefs and practices of others, have lost sight of one
> the greatest teachings that religion offers.

You have just lumped all religions into the same basket. I am sure many
religions would now be insulted by your intolerance in understanding their
positions.

But my impression is that many Americans think that anyone who disagrees with
them is automatically a bigot (based on the observation of other threads in
other newsgroups). Society works well with tolerance but you have not
demonstrated that you even know what it means. Did I label you with any
insulting American terms in this discussion? No. But as soon as someone
disagrees with your outlook you are quick to insult.

regards,
Ben

--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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> But as soon as someone
>disagrees with your outlook you are quick to insult.
>
>Ben

By arguing religion, any religion, any aspect thereof, you insult yourself...
to so high a degree no one can insult you more.

Ben, you are indeed a ****ing imbecile... but that's nothing compared to how
you portray yourself.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

PENMART01 wrote:

> Ben, you are indeed a ****ing imbecile... but that's nothing compared to how
> you portray yourself.

Thank you Mister Tolerant. Do all people whose religion involves not being a
"bigot" involve insulting everyone who disagrees with them? The impression I
have from lurking in other newsgroups and this one now is unfortunately 'yes'.

And by the way - here's a favour for you -

PLONK!

--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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On Fri, 02 Apr 2004 17:27:31 GMT, Julia Altshuler
> wrote:

>Pan Ohco wrote:
>
>> The 16 year old may not have made the same agreement, and therefore
>> did not violate his understand
>
>
>The 16 year old is a SHE! I
>
>
>--Lia

My apologies, Lia
Pan Ohco

blake murphy wrote:

> couldn't she just use a *milchik* glass?


If it was a glass glass, it wouldn't have mattered.

in article , Scott
at lid wrote on 4/1/04 11:08 PM:

> In article >,
> Terry Pulliam Burd > wrote:
>
>> I'm not Jewish, but I was once invited to a Passover Seder (seder?)
>> and scrambled around to find an offering to bring. I made potato
>> latkes and they turned out to be amazing - I make them regularly:
>>
>> @@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format
>>
>> Potato Latkes
>>
>> vegetables
>>
>> 4 medium potatoes; peeled
>> 2 large yellow onions
>> 4 large eggs; lightly beaten
>> 1/3 cup matzo meal
>> 2 teaspoons salt
>> pepper; to taste
>> 3/4 cup peanut oil
>
>
> Peanut oil isn't kosher for Passover (for most Jews).

So then why would Rokeach sell bottles of it with a KP on it?
That's what my mother always bought for Pesach. We always ate peanuts during
Pesach, and Mom always bought a new jar of peanut butter with a KP on it.
I dunno, when I was little, we were very observant during Pesach, changing
dishes, pots, etc, the whole nine yards. I seriously doubt we would have
eaten peanut oil and peanut butter erroneously.

And we are from Eastern Europe, so we don't eat corn, rice, peas or beans.
(Sephardic Jews do eat lentils, beans and rice)

in article , Boron Elgar at
wrote on 4/2/04 1:45 PM:

> Beyond his honesty or lack of it, is a serious intolerance for
> religious practices other than his own. His remarks about Conservative
> and Reform Judaism were condescending and rude.
>
> Those who feel that their religion is the One True Path and yet
> denigrate the beliefs and practices of others, have lost sight of one
> the greatest teachings that religion offers.
>
> Boron

You said exactly what I was thinking and was unable to articulate.
Thank you for that.

in article , blake murphy at
wrote on 4/2/04 2:52 PM:

>>
>> The person requesting the milk was not committed to keeping Kashruth.
>> Whether the hostess was or not is not at issue. Hospitality is making your
>> guests comfortable and happy. Explaining to a young woman about kashruth
>> might have made her feel bad. Why go through all that?
>
> couldn't she just use a *milchik* glass?
>
> your pal,
> blake

I am almost certain she did!
But the prohibition is on consuming milk within a prescribed period of time
after consuming meat. It's not enough to avoid the milk shake with a
cheeseburger or otherwise combining meat and dairy on the same plate. You
can't have ice cream or cheesecake, for example, after a steak dinner,
either. Not for several hours after.

You could have cottage cheese and salad for lunch and steak for dinner. (Or
vice versa) but there must be a certain amount of time between the two. I
forget how long.

Ben > wrote:

> No one is perfect. We try and hopefully work on improving ourselves. I don't

You know, Ben, I've been lurking in this thread and you're
all right. I like a guy who can hold a religious discussion
on usenet and not degenerate into a flame war.

> even change as a result. I can admit that I am wrong. But the issue here is
> being accused of intolerance because I don't believe in the "truths" pushed by
> a completely different religion trying to fool people by using the term
> "Judaism". LIke I said already - in the commercial world this is called
> trademark infringement and is illegal (at least in the U.S.)

This is normal for religions too. I know of several Christian churches
who basically say they are the only true Christians and anyone else
calling themselve that are wrong. I'm pretty sure there are differing
sects of Islam that probably call all the others false also.
So, I understand your point that Conservative and Reform Jews do not
qualify for the term as you understand it.

> But my impression is that many Americans think that anyone who disagrees with
> them is automatically a bigot (based on the observation of other threads in
> other newsgroups). Society works well with tolerance but you have not
> demonstrated that you even know what it means. Did I label you with any
> insulting American terms in this discussion? No. But as soon as someone
> disagrees with your outlook you are quick to insult.

Well, I just wanted to say that at least *I* have appreciated
what you are saying. I may not agree with you on religion, in fact
I most certainly do not, but I respect your belief. Of course,
this is getting seriously off topic for a cooking group, but nothing
new there. I've enjoyed learning a little bit about your perspective.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

wrote:

> This is normal for religions too. I know of several Christian churches
> who basically say they are the only true Christians and anyone else
> calling themselve that are wrong.


There's an interesting advantage to this phenomenon. True, people argue
about it. One says "I belong to the Beagle religion." Another says
"No, I'm the only true Beagle; you're a fake Beagle, an imposter, why
don't you call yourself what you really are, a Schnauzer?" They may
come to blows or at least a nasty usenet flame war.


But look at the flip side. Two people meet. One says he's a Beagle.
So does the other. If both truly believe in religious freedom, they
have all they need for a good respectful discussion. They sit down and
talk. "What do you believe as a Beagle?" "Really? I agree with you
some points of Beagledom but differ with you on this other point." They
can get to know each other and become friends.


--Lia

In article >,
Sheryl Rosen > wrote:

>
> So then why would Rokeach sell bottles of it with a KP on it?
> That's what my mother always bought for Pesach. We always ate peanuts during
> Pesach, and Mom always bought a new jar of peanut butter with a KP on it.
> I dunno, when I was little, we were very observant during Pesach, changing
> dishes, pots, etc, the whole nine yards. I seriously doubt we would have
> eaten peanut oil and peanut butter erroneously.
>
> And we are from Eastern Europe, so we don't eat corn, rice, peas or beans.
> (Sephardic Jews do eat lentils, beans and rice)


Peanuts are beans (legumes) and thus are kitniot. Perhaps the KP is for
sephardim.

<http://www.kashrut.com/Passover/pesachart/>
"Even if a product says that it is kosher for Passover, it still may be
inappropriate for you. More and more products from Israel (where the
majority of the population are Sephardim, who do use kitniot) have been
imported to this country. These products are not kosher for Passover for
Ashkenazim, but will be labeled as kosher for Passover, since they are
kosher for Passover for Sephardim. Some of the problematic ingredients
include lecithin, corn syrup, rice and peanuts."

--
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please mail OT responses only

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> This is normal for religions too. I know of several Christian churches
>> who basically say they are the only true Christians and anyone else
>> calling themselve that are wrong.
>
<snip>
> But look at the flip side. Two people meet. One says he's a Beagle. So
> does the other. If both truly believe in religious freedom, they have
> all they need for a good respectful discussion. They sit down and
> talk. "What do you believe as a Beagle?" "Really? I agree with you
> some points of Beagledom but differ with you on this other point." They
> can get to know each other and become friends.

You would be surprised how many friends I have from different cultures and
backgrounds from myself - even different religions. Which leaves me with an
idea of a little challange - but not in this part of the thread. Talk is
rather cheap. I'd like to see how many friends (interacting with in flesh and
blood) these so called tolerant people have or are they just full of empty
words with their tolerant talk bacause when they encounter someone different
to themselves they relate by attacking...

regards,
Ben

--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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wrote:

> You know, Ben, I've been lurking in this thread and you're
> all right. I like a guy who can hold a religious discussion
> on usenet and not degenerate into a flame war.

I really appreciate your response. It is the one I would have expected from
someone who considers themself to be tolerant. I am really at loss how people
that come across so intolerantly in the way they interact with others can
actually believe the opposite of themselves because when push comes to shove
how you interact with and treat others is how you know.

regards,
Ben


--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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Ben wrote:

> You would be surprised how many friends I have from different cultures
> and backgrounds from myself - even different religions. Which leaves me
> with an idea of a little challange - but not in this part of the thread.
> Talk is rather cheap. I'd like to see how many friends (interacting with
> in flesh and blood) these so called tolerant people have or are they
> just full of empty words with their tolerant talk bacause when they
> encounter someone different to themselves they relate by attacking...


I'm not sure if you're counting me as one of these "so called tolerant
people." Looking over my posts in this thread, do you believe I've
related by attacking? What about others? Do you feel that you've been
attacked?


--Lia

I'm answering my own post because I've looked over the last few posts
and realized that I automatically ignore the least rational people in
this newsgroup. That left me with the impression that this whole thread
was relatively polite. There's a different impression if you read every
post.

--Lia

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> I'm not sure if you're counting me as one of these "so called tolerant
> people." Looking over my posts in this thread, do you believe I've
> related by attacking? What about others? Do you feel that you've been
> attacked?

I have had no problem with your replies.

It is interesting to also note that I have nothing against anyone in this
discussion though from the sounds of it at least a couple of people hate my
guts :-) I can be friends with people even when I disagree on critical
issues. The "tolerant" people in this discussion though don't seem to be able
to do that unfortunately.

Have a Happy and Kosher Passover everyone!
regards,
Ben

--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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> It is interesting to also note that I have nothing against anyone in this
> discussion though from the sounds of it at least a couple of people hate my
> guts :-) I can be friends with people even when I disagree on critical
> issues. The "tolerant" people in this discussion though don't seem to be able
> to do that unfortunately.
>
> Have a Happy and Kosher Passover everyone!
> regards,
> Ben
===============================
Maybe it's because you seem "tolerant" of every religion other than
your own as practiced by others who don't follow your criteria. Glad
you find it meaningful to be frum. I don't.
Lynn in Fargo
Tallit wearing Jewish mama. Reform & happy.

Lynn Gifford wrote:
> Maybe it's because you seem "tolerant" of every religion other than
> your own as practiced by others who don't follow your criteria. Glad
> you find it meaningful to be frum. I don't.

My problem is these 2 religions trying to sow confusion, but I have no problem
if a person wants to follow those religions from a position of understanding
of what they are. What do you call tolerance? Should I proseletize people to
join those religions - would that make me tolerant.

If you want to know more about disgust for the 2 religions in question, do
some investigation of their role during the holocaust. Maybe then you will be
disgusted too. I am a second generation surviver and know something about who
did something, nothing or whose work or lack there of costed lives. Take a
look at the role of Reform and Conservative in the U.S. during the holocaust.
Find out what their attitude was towards the State of Israel around that time.
Wonderful.


> Lynn in Fargo
> Tallit wearing Jewish mama. Reform & happy.

Do you also wear a sheitel or tichel? Why not do that as well? There are
plenty of Jewish things a Jewish woman can do.

Here is the generation that prefers to feel spiritual than to actually be
spiritual.

regards,
Ben


--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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Ben wrote:

Take a look at the role of Reform and Conservative in
> the U.S. during the holocaust. Find out what their attitude was towards
> the State of Israel around that time.


I've spoken to my parents on this very issue and asked them about their
Orthodox relatives. Their memories of the political climate, who
believed what and who did what does not support your conclusions.

--Lia

On Mon, 05 Apr 2004 09:36:56 -0400, Ben > wrote:


>
>If you want to know more about disgust for the 2 religions in question...
>

You are a bigot. Pure and simple.

I, too, am a second generation survivor, and the brass balls to use
that as some excuse for your bigotry is horrific.

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:
> You are a bigot. Pure and simple.
>
> I, too, am a second generation survivor, and the brass balls to use
> that as some excuse for your bigotry is horrific.

When you want to deal with issues instead of personal attacks then we have
something to discuss. Perhaps its time to look at my original post and what it
was discussing instead of talking about your own personal perceptions of the
one responding. When these "liberal" (can't think of the right word - sorry -
but hopefully you get the idea) minded people disagree with someone, the
reaction is to turn the conversation away from the subject and on to the
speaker by having him defend himself against their personal attacks. There are
2 methods. The first is to call him/her a bigot the other is to call him a
troll. Either way he is forced to defend himself instead of his position on an
issue.

I kind of see the difference between you and me. I would be considered to have
very little tolerance of organizations and religions on the other hand when I
deal with people I respect them.

You have great respect for organizations and religions but very little respect
for anyone that disagrees with you and your general beliefs.

People vs. entities. When you deal with entities you can lay back comfortably
in a theoretical world. When you have to deal with people, that is a practical
thing which you don't seem to handle too well. Naturally, in this limited
impersonal medium it is more difficult to communicate. I am sure in person we
would be far more civil. Or perhaps you would start to yell at me :-)

Sorry (in retrospect) about bringing up the holocaust - it is just a gripe I
have. I think the holocaust in many ways has been abused today. Jews taking
payoff earlier was a great mistake which now they can see the consequence of
in the attitude of the Europeans towards them.

regards,
Ben

--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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Julia Altshuler wrote:

> I've spoken to my parents on this very issue and asked them about their
> Orthodox relatives. Their memories of the political climate, who
> believed what and who did what does not support your conclusions.

Hello Julia. I can't speak from the spame perspective of you and your parents
obviously. My dealing with the U.S. has been only very recent though I do have
many American friends too believe it or not. I can't ask my parents or
grandparents about the U.S. because they have never lived there. On the other
hand there are lots of historic records of people and events (or unfortuantely
lack of events). For example - did you hear about the reform/conservative
protest in front of the whitehouse with regards to the holocaust? Neither have
I and you want to know why they didn't participate? Because it was unAmerican.
They put forward being an American before saving lives of their brothers and
sisters. A history professor I know was telling me how the New York times
burried holocaust articles on the back pages of the newspaper. Anyway, I am
about to be yelled out for being on the computer now so I have to run. :-)

warm regards,
Ben


--
"What passes for wisdom may only be eloquent foolishness"

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You may find as you learn about people and their motivations that
discovering what motivates one person to one specific act is relatively
easy. Just ask. They may be lying, but people normally have a
motivation to lie. Discovering why many people do something is
considerably more difficult, and discovering why many people do NOT do
something is entering the impossible range. Applying this to American
Jewry's inactions during WWII will give you considerable insight into
the situation here.


Changing the subject somewhat: You mentioned being a second generation
survivor. Does that mean being the son of Holocaust survivors, or the
grandson? And does Holocaust survivor mean surviving the camps,
surviving in Germany or the occupied territories or suffering
anit-Semitism before escaping to somewhere else? I realize these are
personal questions that you might not feel like answering so ignore me
if I've overstepped.


--Lia

In article >, Ben
> wrote:

> When you have something mentioned 3 times in the Torah, we don't say
> "now isn't that funny G-d must have had a stutter". We apply the
> rules G-d told us to apply in order to learn out His laws. It so
> happens that not to cook a kid in it's mother's milk is mentioned 3
> times and each mention is to learn out a different aspect of the law
> (for the specifics you can begin with Mesches Chullin). You want to
> leave what G-d wants up to human "logic", but we believe G-d has
> given us everything needed short of a prophet in order to know
> *exactly* what he wants (is it so strange that if G-d has
> expectations from us, then he should not leave it up to the
> imagination as to what those expectations are?).

Could you e-mail me the 3 references. I'm not challenging you, just
curious, as the only one I remember atm is the kid in its mother's milk
reference.

Regards,
Ranee

--
Remove do not and spam to e-mail me.

"The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of
heaven and earth, does not live in shrines made by man." Acts 17:24

Ben > wrote in message >...
(snip)
> Do you also wear a sheitel or tichel? Why not do that as well? There are
> plenty of Jewish things a Jewish woman can do.
>
> Here is the generation that prefers to feel spiritual than to actually be
> spiritual.
>
> regards,
> Ben

No, I don't wear a sheitel or a tichel but on occasion I have worn a
girdle.
Lynn in Fargo
Who can play Jewish oneupsmanship with the best of 'em
PS: Seriously, I wish you a happy Pesach, Ben. I hope your seder is
full of people you love who love you.
G-d bless!
Lynn
Off to make Haroset (2 kinds) for 85 people.

In article >,
Ranee Mueller > wrote:

> Could you e-mail me the 3 references. I'm not challenging you, just
> curious, as the only one I remember atm is the kid in its mother's milk
> reference.

Exodus 23:19; Exodus 34:26; Deuteronomy 14:21--same instruction,
repeated three times

--
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please mail OT responses only

Donna Rose wrote:

>>>I'm curious about why you don't spell out the word "God". Please
>>>understand, I'm not making a value judgement about it, I'm simply
>>>curious.
>>
>>
>>"Thou shalt not take the name........"
>>
>>Therefore, Jews write G-d instead, even the ones who do not believe in
>>a Superior Being. They are the ones who are very superstitious
>>instead of being religious.
>>
>>
>
> Now I'm really confused. Are you saying that merely writing the word
> "God" is considered taking the name in vain?


It could be. The name is so highly regarded that even writing it out might
not be respectful enough.

Best regards,
Bob

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> Pan Ohco wrote:
>
>> The 16 year old may not have made the same agreement, and therefore
>> did not violate his understand as to what God requires of him. And
>> the hostess action not only did not insult him by suggesting that he
>> is some way inferior in Gods eye but she further did not insult those
>> keeping kosher at her table.
>
>
>
> The 16 year old is a SHE! I realize anything goes on usenet, but this
> seeing myself referred to in the 3rd person is plain weird. Other than
> that, I agree with you. I think my hostess came up with a brilliant way
> to be gracious to me while not being insulting to anyone else. That's
> why people smile when they hear the story.
>
>
> Mrs. Lieberman kept a kosher home according to kosher laws as they
> pertain to Conservative Judaism. Whatever the Orthodox think of those
> laws is another story. Her family attended a Conservative shul.
>
>
> --Lia
>


I got confused way back at the not serving turkey with its mother's milk.
I didn't think birds had teats.

Not eating beef (or lamb or goat) and dairy at the same meal is a logical
extention of the Law, because you don't know if the meat and the milk might
be related. You do know that the turkey or chicken is not being served
with its mother's milk. "Turkey on white with cheese" is not a violation
of the levitical law, it violates IMHO a rather ridiculous rabbinical
custom. I understand that rabbis always interpret the Torah *very*
conservatively, in a sense placing a hedge around the law lest someone get
to close and transgress unintentionally. And that is a good thing, until
it gets taken too far. When you put a hedge around a hedge around a hedge,
eventually it gets rather silly.

Mrs. Lieberman was placed in an awkward position, and someone would find
fault with *any* thing she that did.

Best regards,
Bob