I have been using almost the same recipes and am bored with them.
Please
send me your favorite, especially for kugel and dessert. TIA and direct
mail OK.
Best wishes and ESSEN! Ellen

try this link....all the passover, plus other recipes you'll ever need...

http://www.jewishfood-list.com/


> wrote in message
...
>
> I have been using almost the same recipes and am bored with them.
> Please
> send me your favorite, especially for kugel and dessert. TIA and direct
> mail OK.
> Best wishes and ESSEN! Ellen
>

try this link....all the passover, plus other recipes you'll ever need...

http://www.jewishfood-list.com/


> wrote in message
...
>
> I have been using almost the same recipes and am bored with them.
> Please
> send me your favorite, especially for kugel and dessert. TIA and direct
> mail OK.
> Best wishes and ESSEN! Ellen
>

> wrote...
> I have been using almost the same recipes and am bored with them.
> Please> send me your favorite, especially for kugel and dessert.
TIA
> and direct mail OK.

My favorite is ham and cheese loaf.

> wrote...
> I have been using almost the same recipes and am bored with them.
> Please> send me your favorite, especially for kugel and dessert.
TIA
> and direct mail OK.

My favorite is ham and cheese loaf.

wrote in message >...
> I have been using almost the same recipes and am bored with them.
> Please
> send me your favorite, especially for kugel and dessert. TIA and direct
> mail OK.
> Best wishes and ESSEN! Ellen

Mascarpone Cheesecake (with rhubarb glaze and chocolate covered
strawberries)
CRUST:
No stick spray
1 1/4 cup matzah meal
4 tablespoons melted butter
4 tablespoons white sugar
Mix crumbs, butter and sugar and press onto bottom of 8 or 9 inch
springform pan. Bake at 325F for 10 minutes. Remove from oven.
Maintain oven temperature.
FILLING:
2 (8 oz) packages of cream cheese (room termperature)
2 (8 oz) containers of mascarpone (room termperature)
2 tablespoons flour (use matza cake flour or just omit it)
6 large eggs
1 cup white sugar
1 1/2 tablespoons vanilla
1 tablespoon lemon juice
2 teaspoons lemon zest (yellow part of lemon peel)
Pinch of salt
Beat cream cheese and sugar until smooth. Add mascarpone and beat
until smooth [mix in flour] Beat in eggs one at a time. Add lemon
juice and zest, vanilla and salt. Pour over crust and bake (about) one
hour. Top of the cake may crack a little. Stir sour cream until
smooth; spread over cake. Refrigerate cake overnight.
GLAZE:
4 cups fresh rhubarb (frozen's OK, I think)
8 strawberries, hulled (for color?)
3/4 cup sugar
2/3 cup plus 3 tablespoons water
(you may not need all or any of the water with frozen rhubarb.)
2 tablespoons fresh lemon juice
1 1/2 tablespoons cornstarch (or equivalent potato starch?) Oh the
hellwithit!!! Use the cornstarch and keep your mouth shut . . who's to
know already?
Combine rhubarb, strawberries, sugar, 2/3 cup of water and lemon juice
in large sauce pan. Bring to boil, stirring until sugar dissolves.
Reduce heat and simmer until rhubarb is tender, about 9 minutes.
Remove from heat; let cool 10 minutes. Pour mixture through strainer
set over 4 cup measuring cup, pressing on solids to extract 1 1/2 cups
liquid. Return the 1 1/2 cups liquid to same pan; bring to simmer over
medium heat. Whisk cornstarch and 3 tablespoons cold water to blend in
small bowl; add to liquid in saucepan. Whisk continuously until
mixture thickens, about 6 minutes. Pour into small bowl and chill
until cold, about 2 hours. Spread glaze over cheesecale. Refrigerate
at least 4 hours and up to 1 day.
GARNISH:
6 oz. bittersweet chocolate, chopped
12 large, perfect strawberries
Line baking sheet with parchment or waxed paper. Stir chocolate in top
of double boiler over simmering water until chocolate is melted.
Remove chocolate from over water. Holding by the stem, dip each
strawberry about half way into melted chocolate. Gently shake off
excess chocolate; place on baking sheet. Chill until chocolate is set
(about 30 minutes up to 6 hours) Place strawberries around edge of
cake and serve. (I'd keep the strawberries separate while I
transported the cake and put each strawberry on to individual cake
slices as served.)


Apple Cherry Crisp

1 lemon, squeezed into 8 cups cold water
4 pounds big Granny Smith apples (about6)
1 cup sugar 1 teaspoon cinnamon
1 tablespoon cornstarch 1 1/2 cups dried cherries
3 tablespoons unsalted butter, cut into quarters
(for Pareve use unsalted stick margarine)

Crumbs
1 cup matzah meal (90 grams)
1/4 cup packed light brown sugar
1/4 cup granulated sugar
1/2 cup walnuts, chopped medium-fine
5 tablespoons unsalted butter, melted

1. Preheat the oven to 400 degrees with a rack in the middle position.

2. Peel, core and dice the apples into 1/4" pieces. (Mine were 1/8 "
thick and postage stamp sized) Drop into the lemon-water as you go, to
keep the apples from turning brown. Drain the apples well. Mix in the
sugar, cinnamon, cornstarch, and cherries.
3. Turn the apples into a greased 8x10" pan. Dot with the butter.
Cover with foil. Make 3 slits in the foil, place in the oven and. bake
for 1 hour.

4. Meanwhile, make the crumbs by mixing the flours, sugars and nuts in
a small bowl. Add the butter, and stir with a fork to until the
mixture is moistened. Press the mixture with your fingers into chunks.
5. The crumbs can be sprinkled on the apples when they are cooked, or
the apples can be made ahead (up to 2 days), reheated until warm, and
then the crumbs can be
sprinkled on and baked. In either case, sprinkle the crumbs on and
bake at 400 degrees 10-20 minutes, until the crumbs are nicely
browned. Let cool to warm
before serving.

Lynn from Fargo

If you want a really decadent, delicious kugel that is very basic and desserty
(sweet), try this. It's a family favorite. Cornflake crumbs are not optional!
It gives it a great crispy top.

Jen's Kugel

12 oz wide egg noodles
0.5 lb butter
1.5 cups (12 oz) sour cream
1 cup sugar
1.5 cups milk
3 eggs
cornflake crumbs

Preheat oven to 350 F. Grease a 9x13 pyrex. Boil noodles 5 minutes, drain and
cool. Put noodles into pyrex. In a bowl, melt butter, add sour cream and sugar
and pour over noodles. Warm the milk, add beaten eggs, and pour on top of
previous layer. Sprinkle the top generously with cornflake crumbs. Bake at 350
1 hour.
Half the people you know are below average. -Steven Wright

JLove98905 wrote:
> If you want a really decadent, delicious kugel that is very basic and desserty
> (sweet), try this. It's a family favorite. Cornflake crumbs are not optional!
> It gives it a great crispy top.

Yes, but not for Passover.

regards,
Ben

I'm not Jewish, but I was once invited to a Passover Seder (seder?)
and scrambled around to find an offering to bring. I made potato
latkes and they turned out to be amazing - I make them regularly:

@@@@@ Now You're Cooking! Export Format

Potato Latkes

vegetables

4 medium potatoes; peeled
2 large yellow onions
4 large eggs; lightly beaten
1/3 cup matzo meal
2 teaspoons salt
pepper; to taste
3/4 cup peanut oil

Using medium shredding blade of food processor, grate the potatoes,
laying them horizontally in the feed tube to maximize the strand
length. Grate the onions on top of the potatoes. The onions will turn
to mush and their juices will help keep the potatoes from turning
brown.

Lay a clean dishtowel inside a large bowl and transfer the grated
mixture into the towel. Roll the towel lengthwise and wring out as
much liquid as possible (you can do this over the bowl, discarding the
liquid, or right over the sink). Depending on the size of the towel,
you may have to do this in batches.

Transfer the grated mixture to a mixing bowl. Add the eggs, matzo
meal, salt and pepper; mix well.

In a large cast-iron or nonstick skillet, pour about 1/8" of oil and
heat on medium high. The oil is hot enough when a piece of potato
sizzles when added. Form a trial latke with a tablespoon of the
mixture. Fry until golden brown on both sides. Taste and, if needed,
add salt and pepper to the potato mixture.

To form the latkes, scoop up about 1/2 C. of the mixture with your
hands and loosely pat it into a pancake about 1/2" thick, leaving a
few straggly strands along the edge. (As you work, liquid will
accumulate in the bowl. Squeeze out the excess. The last couple of
latkes may need a really firm squeeze.) after shaping each latke, slip
it into the hot oil and flatten it gently with the back of a spatula.
Fry until deep golden brown, at least 5 mins. on each side to be sure
the center is fully cooked. If the edges darken very quickly, lower
the heat. To prevent excess oil absorption, flip each latke only once.
Add oil between batches as needed, making sure the oil heats up again
before frying more latkes. Drain on paper towels or a clean brown
paper bag. Serve immediately.

May be rejeated in a 300F oven. Set the latkes directly on the oven
rack and back 8 - 10 mins.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Contributor: Fine Cooking Magazine

Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd
AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA

"If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret
had been as old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had
been as full as the waitress', it would have been a very
good dinner." Anonymous.

To reply, remove replace "shcox" with "cox"

Terry Pulliam Burd wrote:

> I'm not Jewish, but I was once invited to a Passover Seder (seder?)
> and scrambled around to find an offering to bring. I made potato
> latkes and they turned out to be amazing - I make them regularly:
>

Ok, time for my embarrassing Passover Confession. I was living in Germany
and was invited by one of my best friends to her Passover Seder. She also
invited another family (wife and kids) as the men in the families were in
Saudi. Not being Jewish, and at the time fairly ignorant of the Kosher
laws... I offered to bring the salad. The hostess made brisket and all
the trimmings. My salad was a new recipe to me. One of those "layered"
salads...topped by mayonnaise and.. Parmesan Cheese!! No one said a word,
but I noticed it wasn't eaten much. It was years later than I learned
about the restrictions on mixing meat and dairy and I still cringe about
my faux pas. Ah well.. my Jewish girlfriend and I can laugh about it over
pork bbq now.
Goomba

Goomba38 wrote:

It was years later than I learned
> about the restrictions on mixing meat and dairy and I still cringe about
> my faux pas. Ah well.. my Jewish girlfriend and I can laugh about it over
> pork bbq now.


My story involves being invited to Thanksgiving dinner at a kosher home,
a friend from school's. I'm Jewish, but we never kept kosher. You'd
think I would have known, but ... After dinner the hostess asked the
guests if they'd like coffee or tea. I asked for a glass of milk. I
thought her surprised statement about how I could drink milk after all
that turkey had to do with the way I was still drinking milk at the age
of 16, an age when most teenagers would have begun drinking coffee like
the grown-ups.


She brought me a glass of white liquid and told me it was Cremora in
water. I thought "yech," and wondered how I could get out of drinking
it. Then she caught my eye behind her husband's back and pointed to the
milk container as she put it back in the refrigerator.


I gotta love a lady who would violate the rules in her own home to serve
a guest and smooth over an awkward teenager's faux pas.


--Lia

Terry Pulliam Burd > wrote in
:

> I'm not Jewish, but I was once invited to a Passover Seder (seder?)
> and scrambled around to find an offering to bring. I made potato
> latkes and they turned out to be amazing - I make them regularly:
>

I'm not jewish either and have a burning question about matzo meal. I know
matzo is unleaven bread but what's in the unleaven bread...is it just flour
and water and perhaps some salt or oil...or what?

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on nothing but food
and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> I gotta love a lady who would violate the rules in her own home to serve
> a guest and smooth over an awkward teenager's faux pas.

Thanks for that great story.

nancy

hahabogus wrote:

> I'm not jewish either and have a burning question about matzo meal. I know
> matzo is unleaven bread but what's in the unleaven bread...is it just flour
> and water and perhaps some salt or oil...or what?


Just flour and water, mixed and baked within a specified time period to
prevent accidental leavening from wild yeasts in the air. When you
taste it, you'll be underwhelmed. It tastes like a plain, dry cracker.
Those of us with fond childhood memories of it love the stuff. Those
without take a bite and shrug. It's not something that's so bad you'd
spit it out, but it is awfully plain, and it's dry enough that you want
a glass of something (wine, water) to wash it down.


--Lia

in article t_Lac.150210$1p.1919430@attbi_s54, Julia Altshuler at
wrote on 3/31/04 10:27 PM:

> Goomba38 wrote:
>
> It was years later than I learned
>> about the restrictions on mixing meat and dairy and I still cringe about
>> my faux pas. Ah well.. my Jewish girlfriend and I can laugh about it over
>> pork bbq now.
>
>
> My story involves being invited to Thanksgiving dinner at a kosher home,
> a friend from school's. I'm Jewish, but we never kept kosher. You'd
> think I would have known, but ... After dinner the hostess asked the
> guests if they'd like coffee or tea. I asked for a glass of milk. I
> thought her surprised statement about how I could drink milk after all
> that turkey had to do with the way I was still drinking milk at the age
> of 16, an age when most teenagers would have begun drinking coffee like
> the grown-ups.
>
>
> She brought me a glass of white liquid and told me it was Cremora in
> water. I thought "yech," and wondered how I could get out of drinking
> it. Then she caught my eye behind her husband's back and pointed to the
> milk container as she put it back in the refrigerator.
>
>
> I gotta love a lady who would violate the rules in her own home to serve
> a guest and smooth over an awkward teenager's faux pas.
>
>
> --Lia
>

Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
5 Stars to your friend's mom!

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> She brought me a glass of white liquid and told me it was Cremora in
> water. I thought "yech," and wondered how I could get out of drinking
> it. Then she caught my eye behind her husband's back and pointed to the
> milk container as she put it back in the refrigerator.
>
>
> I gotta love a lady who would violate the rules in her own home to serve
> a guest and smooth over an awkward teenager's faux pas.

It's that difficult to be honest and just explain that in kosher homes milk is
not consumed right after meat?

regards,
Ben

Sheryl Rosen wrote:
> Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
> 5 Stars to your friend's mom!

Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her religion,
but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show rather than a
commitment to what they believe in.

regards,
Ben

in article yjMac.156288$po.927457@attbi_s52, Julia Altshuler at
wrote on 3/31/04 10:49 PM:

> hahabogus wrote:
>
>> I'm not jewish either and have a burning question about matzo meal. I know
>> matzo is unleaven bread but what's in the unleaven bread...is it just flour
>> and water and perhaps some salt or oil...or what?
>
>
> Just flour and water, mixed and baked within a specified time period to
> prevent accidental leavening from wild yeasts in the air. When you
> taste it, you'll be underwhelmed. It tastes like a plain, dry cracker.
> Those of us with fond childhood memories of it love the stuff. Those
> without take a bite and shrug. It's not something that's so bad you'd
> spit it out, but it is awfully plain, and it's dry enough that you want
> a glass of something (wine, water) to wash it down.
>
>
> --Lia

Ever have a Carr's Water Cracker?
That's pretty much what matzo tastes like.

Ben wrote:
> Sheryl Rosen wrote:
>
>> Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
>> 5 Stars to your friend's mom!
>
>
> Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her
> religion, but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show
> rather than a commitment to what they believe in.


As the years have gone by, I've come closer to Ben's way of thinking. I
can see that Mrs. Lieberman made a choice with good arguments on both
sides of it.


She could have refused me the milk, but that would have meant, not just
explaining, but explaining to a 16 year old in front of her older friend
and the other guests. (My school friend who invited me was a year older
and far more popular and grown-up. Anyone could see I held her in awe.)
Further, if I weren't Jewish, the explanation might not have been so
embarrassing for me. A non-Jew wouldn't have been expected to know, but
mine was a real faux pas; I should have known. That's in favor of
giving me the milk.


On the other hand, Ben's right. That's her home, her religious
conviction, her rules. Like so many, I've become more conservative as
I've gotten older. I have more respect for religious commitment and
religious rules than I once had. Looking back, I wonder if she might
have said something along the lines of "no." But then, as I've gotten
older, I've lost touch with the teenager I once was. Now it is easy for
me to think I wouldn't have been embarrassed then, but that's because I
wouldn't be embarrassed now. As an adult, I'm more O.K. with minor
corrections than I was at 16.


Either way, let's not be too hard on this woman from 30 years ago. She
made her decision then. Let's not second guess her now.


--Lia

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> Ben wrote:
> > Sheryl Rosen wrote:
> >
> >> Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
> >> 5 Stars to your friend's mom!
> >
> >
> > Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her
> > religion, but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show
> > rather than a commitment to what they believe in.
>
> As the years have gone by, I've come closer to Ben's way of thinking. I
> can see that Mrs. Lieberman made a choice with good arguments on both
> sides of it.

I disagree with Ben. If she'd had some of the milk herself that would have
been different. She maintained her own religious beliefs just didn't make
another in her home to follow her suit.
Goomba

Goomba38 wrote:
>
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> > Ben wrote:
> > > Sheryl Rosen wrote:
> > >
> > >> Know what? That's the absolute DEFINITION of Gracious Hospitality!
> > >> 5 Stars to your friend's mom!
> > >
> > >
> > > Wonderfully hospitable. Deceiving her husband and going against her
> > > religion, but I guess they might have been the type that do it for show
> > > rather than a commitment to what they believe in.
> >
> > As the years have gone by, I've come closer to Ben's way of thinking. I
> > can see that Mrs. Lieberman made a choice with good arguments on both
> > sides of it.
>
> I disagree with Ben. If she'd had some of the milk herself that would have
> been different. She maintained her own religious beliefs just didn't make
> another in her home to follow her suit.
> Goomba

I agree with you, Goomba. If one is, indeed, religious, do you
actually think God is looking down (caring one way or another if
you drink milk with meat) and saying, embarrass your guest by
pointing out their mistake!

She was a gracious host. No second guessing.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:
> I agree with you, Goomba. If one is, indeed, religious, do you
> actually think God is looking down (caring one way or another if
> you drink milk with meat) and saying, embarrass your guest by
> pointing out their mistake!
>
> She was a gracious host. No second guessing.

Do you think G-d cares about anything? No? Then you are probably basing it on
your own values and understanding as to what G-d wants. From the Jewish
perspective, we look to G-d to see what He wants and not double guess things
either. From the *Jewish* (and I mean "orthodox" when I say that) perspective
this means we have a tradition dating back to Moses (he wasn't playing chess
with G-d for 40 days and forty nights) and guidelines from that as to how to
decide what is required of us and what is optional and what is just nice. The
Torah has a law that says "Do not put a stumbling block before the blind".
Tradition tells us that that means more than just not causing some blind
person to fall. It is referring to someone who does not know better while you
do and then whether they realise it or not you cause them to stumble in a
matter. While it may not be held against that person for drinking milk after
meat because that person due to their circumstances does not know better, it
*CAN* be held against the person who gives it who *DOES* in fact know better
(from the Torah perspective at least and if you believe in the Torah then that
is what you follow).

Also, a gracious host can be just as gracious while explaining in a nice way
what is what. It can be done discretely. There is no reason to embarass anyone
(in fact forbidden from the Jewish perspective).

regards,
Ben

Ben wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:
> > I agree with you, Goomba. If one is, indeed, religious, do you
> > actually think God is looking down (caring one way or another if
> > you drink milk with meat) and saying, embarrass your guest by
> > pointing out their mistake!
> >
> > She was a gracious host. No second guessing.
>
> Do you think G-d cares about anything? No? Then you are probably basing it on
> your own values and understanding as to what G-d wants. From the Jewish
> perspective, we look to G-d to see what He wants and not double guess things
> either.

God didn't say, don't drink milk with meat. If you really think
that, I can't help you.

nancy

Nancy Young wrote:
> God didn't say, don't drink milk with meat. If you really think
> that, I can't help you.

Well if you don't believe that we got the Torah from G-d I can't help you
either. But G-d told us via Moses at Sinai how to understand the written Torah
("the Bible") which is basically like rough notes that are pretty much
meaningless in many areas (or at least left up to one's imagination) without
the tradition from G-d as to how to understand what He gave us.

When you have something mentioned 3 times in the Torah, we don't say "now
isn't that funny G-d must have had a stutter". We apply the rules G-d told us
to apply in order to learn out His laws. It so happens that not to cook a kid
in it's mother's milk is mentioned 3 times and each mention is to learn out a
different aspect of the law (for the specifics you can begin with Mesches
Chullin). You want to leave what G-d wants up to human "logic", but we believe
G-d has given us everything needed short of a prophet in order to know
*exactly* what he wants (is it so strange that if G-d has expectations from
us, then he should not leave it up to the imagination as to what those
expectations are?).

If you have not investigated the basis by which we have come to the conclusion
that meat and milk are forbidden together then how can I respect you saying
"God didn't say, don't drink milk with meat." At least if you are coming from
a position of understanding where I and orthodox Jews are coming from then we
can agree to disagree, but you don't even want to understand the orthodox
perspective and where it is coming from **regardless of whether you accept it
or not**.

RANT:
BTW. In the case described in this thread which I responded to, the person
drinking the milk was not transgressing any biblical law anyway. But Rabinic
law came as a consequence of the Biblical prohibition. And of course Rabinic
law is a topic in and of itself as it is not a matter of a bunch of self
appointed "RAbbis" doing as they please (as some would love to believe to
possibly justify their negative attitude towards orthodox Jews), they also are
bound by guidelines passed down from G-d to Moses to the Prophets etc.
Education in Judaism has never been an elitist thing. All Jews at all times
are encouraged to learn the basis behind the Torah and that extends to Rabinic
laws and customs too. The "Rabbis" do not hide their rational or force it on
anyone. It is there for you to see and investigate. We believe that those that
are totally immersed in G-d's law each and every day are the most qualified to
understand and know what G-d wants of us. (BTW. this also goes for other
religions. If I want to know the perspective of Islam I'll ask one of their
clerics - not a University Professor or a journalist or some scholastic book).

regards,
Ben

Ben wrote:
>
> Nancy Young wrote:
> > God didn't say, don't drink milk with meat. If you really think
> > that, I can't help you.
>
> Well if you don't believe that we got the Torah from G-d I can't help you
> either.

Okey doke, Ben, I still am on the side of the lady (and I mean
Lady) who gave a girl a glass of milk. If there is a God, (and I
can spell it), let's hope they are more worried about people killing
each other out of hatred than worrying about what you eat.

nancy

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:48:38 -0500, Ben > wrote:

>\ If I want to know the perspective of Islam I'll ask one of their
>clerics - not a University Professor or a journalist or some scholastic book).
>

Which Muslim sect's clerics would you consult, as that could make
quite a difference in reply. And of course, withouth a central
religious authority, Imam's are judges unto themselves and you might
get 7 different answers from inquiring of 7 of them. All ulama have
the right to issue judgements, and though not legally binding, there
are those who shop around for an interpretation that appeals to them.

When you look for perspective on Jewish law, do you seek
interpretations of the various Chasid sects, or perhaps Orthodox,
Conservative, or Reform rabbinates? Do you feel that one is superior
to another for some reason?

Why do you assume that no one who has attained professorial rank is
capable of answering religious doctrine questions?

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:
>
> On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:48:38 -0500, Ben > wrote:
>
> >\ If I want to know the perspective of Islam I'll ask one of their
> >clerics - not a University Professor or a journalist or some scholastic book).
> >
>
> Which Muslim sect's clerics would you consult, as that could make
> quite a difference in reply. And of course, withouth a central
> religious authority, Imam's are judges unto themselves and you might
> get 7 different answers from inquiring of 7 of them. All ulama have
> the right to issue judgements, and though not legally binding, there
> are those who shop around for an interpretation that appeals to them.
>
> When you look for perspective on Jewish law, do you seek
> interpretations of the various Chasid sects, or perhaps Orthodox,
> Conservative, or Reform rabbinates? Do you feel that one is superior
> to another for some reason?
>
> Why do you assume that no one who has attained professorial rank is
> capable of answering religious doctrine questions?

I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion about the glass of
milk. That's how I feel, but I certainly did not mean to offend
*anyone*. I don't pretend to be religious or understand the rituals
involved, to each their own, my only sentiment was about someone
castigating a woman who gave a teenager a glass of milk.

nancy

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 13:35:46 -0500, Nancy Young
> wrote:

>Boron Elgar wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 12:48:38 -0500, Ben > wrote:
>>
>> >\ If I want to know the perspective of Islam I'll ask one of their
>> >clerics - not a University Professor or a journalist or some scholastic book).
>> >
>>
>> Which Muslim sect's clerics would you consult, as that could make
>> quite a difference in reply. And of course, withouth a central
>> religious authority, Imam's are judges unto themselves and you might
>> get 7 different answers from inquiring of 7 of them. All ulama have
>> the right to issue judgements, and though not legally binding, there
>> are those who shop around for an interpretation that appeals to them.
>>
>> When you look for perspective on Jewish law, do you seek
>> interpretations of the various Chasid sects, or perhaps Orthodox,
>> Conservative, or Reform rabbinates? Do you feel that one is superior
>> to another for some reason?
>>
>> Why do you assume that no one who has attained professorial rank is
>> capable of answering religious doctrine questions?
>
>I apologize if I offended anyone with my opinion about the glass of
>milk. That's how I feel, but I certainly did not mean to offend
>*anyone*. I don't pretend to be religious or understand the rituals
>involved, to each their own, my only sentiment was about someone
>castigating a woman who gave a teenager a glass of milk.
>
>nancy


Nancy, you certainly did not offend me with the story. I found it
lovely and touching. What a wonderful mother that woman must have
been.

I was responding to what I felt was quite an attitude of religious
chauvanism by the OP.

I attended orthodox synagogues all through childhood and chedar 3
times a week while growing up. I know my way around the rules, but to
me, kindness and goodness are the most important parts of any
religion.

Boron

Ack! I've started a religious war (a mild polite one as these things go
on usenet). I never meant to. I was making the point that there are 2
or more sides to every story, that not everything is cut and dry, that
Ben's view on the subject is valid and so is the one put forth by
Goomba, Nancy and Boron (apologies if the names in the sender column
aren't the preferred ones; I don't know y'all well enough yet). Since
you're all going by my rendition of what happened 30 years ago anyway, I
believe the person who was right in this situation was Mrs. Lieberman
herself, and she served me the milk.


Traditional Jewish law is clear on the subject of serving meat and milk
at the same meal. It is also clear on the subjects of hospitality,
generousity, and acts of lovingkindness. The nitty-gritty specifics are
subjects for case law, something that can vary from time to time and
situation to situation. Perhaps if I were a frequent guest in that home
and had come to expect milk at the end of every meat meal, Mrs.
Lieberman would have made a different decision the second time round.


Let's look at the long term effect of her decision. Thirty years later
I look back at that incident as one of kindness. Instead of having
negative feelings about people who keep kosher, I have admiration and
respect. I don't think of her decision as hypocritical. As the years
have gone by, I've been comfortable in many kosher homes. I haven't
been uncomfortably afraid that I'll inadvertently break some rule and
look like an idiot. Also, the repercussions of that act of kindness
have meant that I've been glad to make accomodations for folks who keep
kosher in my home. I'd never make anyone uncomfortable by bringing out
the bacon and then saying "well you don't have to eat it." Instead,
kosher guests in my home get well prepared vegetarian meals that
everyone, kosher or not, eats. I cheerfully use paper plates and
whatever cookware my kosher friends ask me to use. I'd say Mrs.
Lieberman made a good long term investment. YMMV


--Lia

Nancy Young wrote:
> Okey doke, Ben, I still am on the side of the lady (and I mean
> Lady) who gave a girl a glass of milk. If there is a God, (and I
> can spell it), let's hope they are more worried about people killing
> each other out of hatred than worrying about what you eat.

I'd prefer not to be killed regardless of what the person is feeling.

regards,
Ben

In article >,
says...
> Well if you don't believe that we got the Torah from G-d I can't help you
>
>
I'm curious about why you don't spell out the word "God". Please
understand, I'm not making a value judgement about it, I'm simply
curious.
--
Donna
A pessimist believes all women are bad. An optimist hopes they are.

Boron Elgar wrote:
> Which Muslim sect's clerics would you consult, as that could make
> quite a difference in reply. And of course, withouth a central
> religious authority, Imam's are judges unto themselves and you might
> get 7 different answers from inquiring of 7 of them. All ulama have
> the right to issue judgements, and though not legally binding, there
> are those who shop around for an interpretation that appeals to them.

You make a good point, but where do you start? From people who have an
intimate knowledge of their religion.

> When you look for perspective on Jewish law, do you seek
> interpretations of the various Chasid sects, or perhaps Orthodox,
> Conservative, or Reform rabbinates? Do you feel that one is superior
> to another for some reason?

All the orthodox sects have the same basis. Their laws come from the same
source and they in general respect the recognised Gedolim. They will recognise
the authority of the Torah as received via the chain of tradition through to
the Rishonim and Achronim. The thread was coming from the perspective of
orthodox Judaism and anything that isn't that doesn't enter the equation - its
like comparing apples to a rake.

Off topic but since you mention it. Conservative "Judaism" and Reform
"Judaism" are religions that contain many Jews but calling themselves
"Judaism" does not make it so. Seems like everyone today adds an adjective to
the word Judaism and it magically becomes authentic because it is the American
way to say 'who are we to judge these things' therefore they are all equal
etc. etc. I'm waiting for Budhist Judaism to be invented.

> Why do you assume that no one who has attained professorial rank is
> capable of answering religious doctrine questions?

When I have a medical problem I don't necessarily go to the doctor but if I
want some serious answers in that area I won't mess about asking the opinion
of people not immersed in the topic. Same goes for legal advice and the same
goes for religious advice. A person certainly doesn't need the title "Rabbi"
to qualify to answer questions on Judaism, but if you want a more
authoritative and reliable source of information you go to someone whose
profession covers that area of knowledge and who is dedicated to understanding
that area of knowledge.

regards,
Ben

Boron Elgar wrote:
> Nancy, you certainly did not offend me with the story. I found it
> lovely and touching. What a wonderful mother that woman must have
> been.
>
> I was responding to what I felt was quite an attitude of religious
> chauvanism by the OP.
>
> I attended orthodox synagogues all through childhood and chedar 3
> times a week while growing up. I know my way around the rules, but to
> me, kindness and goodness are the most important parts of any
> religion.

I have to run to pick up my son, but in brief: Orthodox Jews do not look down
on those who are not orthodox though it is clearly a popular perception by
those who aren't. If you want to know how Orthodox Judaism views people who
aren't orthodox I suggest you ask. I want to answer but I really have to run
this second.

regards,
Ben

On Thu, 01 Apr 2004 15:31:27 -0500, Ben > wrote:

\
>Off topic but since you mention it. Conservative "Judaism" and Reform
>"Judaism" are religions that contain many Jews but calling themselves
>"Judaism" does not make it so.

It is this attitude, which I consider offensive, that prompted my
initial response.

>Seems like everyone today adds an adjective to
>the word Judaism and it magically becomes authentic because it is the American
>way to say 'who are we to judge these things' therefore they are all equal
>etc. etc. I'm waiting for Budhist Judaism to be invented.

But you do realize that the reform movement began in Germany, not the
US, but don't let that stop your bigoted ideas.


>> Why do you assume that no one who has attained professorial rank is
>> capable of answering religious doctrine questions?
>
>When I have a medical problem I don't necessarily go to the doctor but if I
>want some serious answers in that area I won't mess about asking the opinion
>of people not immersed in the topic. Same goes for legal advice and the same
>goes for religious advice. A person certainly doesn't need the title "Rabbi"
>to qualify to answer questions on Judaism, but if you want a more
>authoritative and reliable source of information you go to someone whose
>profession covers that area of knowledge and who is dedicated to understanding
>that area of knowledge.
>

Professors of medicine, law or religion are generally qualified to
answer questions in their area of expertise as well as the average
practitioner could be expected to be, and may even have more thorough
training and experience in parts of it.

Boron

Donna Rose wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>>Well if you don't believe that we got the Torah from G-d I can't help you
>>
>>
>
> I'm curious about why you don't spell out the word "God". Please
> understand, I'm not making a value judgement about it, I'm simply
> curious.


"Thou shalt not take the name........"

Therefore, Jews write G-d instead, even the ones who do not believe in
a Superior Being. They are the ones who are very superstitious
instead of being religious.

In article >,
lid says...
>
>
> Donna Rose wrote:
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >
> >>Well if you don't believe that we got the Torah from G-d I can't help you
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I'm curious about why you don't spell out the word "God". Please
> > understand, I'm not making a value judgement about it, I'm simply
> > curious.
>
>
> "Thou shalt not take the name........"
>
> Therefore, Jews write G-d instead, even the ones who do not believe in
> a Superior Being. They are the ones who are very superstitious
> instead of being religious.
>
>
Now I'm really confused. Are you saying that merely writing the word
"God" is considered taking the name in vain?
--
Donna
A pessimist believes all women are bad. An optimist hopes they are.

Donna Rose wrote:
> In article >,
> lid says...
>
>>
>>Donna Rose wrote:
>>
>>>In article >,
>>>says...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Well if you don't believe that we got the Torah from G-d I can't help you
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>I'm curious about why you don't spell out the word "God". Please
>>>understand, I'm not making a value judgement about it, I'm simply
>>>curious.
>>
>>
>>"Thou shalt not take the name........"
>>
>>Therefore, Jews write G-d instead, even the ones who do not believe in
>>a Superior Being. They are the ones who are very superstitious
>>instead of being religious.
>>
>>
>
> Now I'm really confused. Are you saying that merely writing the word
> "God" is considered taking the name in vain?

It is all right if you "munge" it, by using a dash instead of the "o".
No Orthodox Jew would ever say or write the word "G-d", not in
Hebrew and not in English or whatever language. Even in prayers, as
far as I know, there are other words used, instead. Help, someone,
Maxine, aren't you from an Orthodox background?

Donna Rose wrote:

> Now I'm really confused. Are you saying that merely writing the word
> "God" is considered taking the name in vain?


It could be. If you believe that God is holy and His name is holy, then
you don't go throwing around His name in situations where it could
easily be wiped out, erased, debased. You save God's real name for
prayer and use a euphemism the rest of the time, even when speaking
about God in a polite fashion.


In speech you might use any number of euphemisms in Hebrew. You might
say "the Name" in English or Hebrew so the listener understands you're
referring to God's name. You might say "God" which isn't related to the
holy name in Hebrew but is a related concept in another tradition and
another language. When writing, you don't spell out the whole thing.


There's a trouble with this, however, and that's that any time you use a
euphemism, people figure out what you're talking about in no time until
quickly the euphemism is so close to the real thing that it doesn't
matter.


(Look at the way the word for "bathroom" has changed. Everyone knows
what it is and what you're doing when you excuse yourself to go there,
but the word keeps changing in an effort to be more polite. I once kept
searching for one in a shopping mall and walked by the sign that said
"public facilities" several times. I didn't know what they were talking
about.)


My question has to do with polite actions on the part of people who
don't share the religious belief. Is it more considerate for me to
spell it G-d too, or is that affected, acting as though that's important
to me when it isn't. I finally decided to spell the word God unless
specifically asked not to by people I love and respect.


--Lia

In article <A50bc.160106$po.953250@attbi_s52>,
says...
> Donna Rose wrote:
>
> > Now I'm really confused. Are you saying that merely writing the word
> > "God" is considered taking the name in vain?
>
>
> It could be. If you believe that God is holy and His name is holy, then
> you don't go throwing around His name in situations where it could
> easily be wiped out, erased, debased. You save God's real name for
> prayer and use a euphemism the rest of the time, even when speaking
> about God in a polite fashion.
>
>
> In speech you might use any number of euphemisms in Hebrew. You might
> say "the Name" in English or Hebrew so the listener understands you're
> referring to God's name. You might say "God" which isn't related to the
> holy name in Hebrew but is a related concept in another tradition and
> another language. When writing, you don't spell out the whole thing.
>
>
> There's a trouble with this, however, and that's that any time you use a
> euphemism, people figure out what you're talking about in no time until
> quickly the euphemism is so close to the real thing that it doesn't
> matter.
>
>
> (Look at the way the word for "bathroom" has changed. Everyone knows
> what it is and what you're doing when you excuse yourself to go there,
> but the word keeps changing in an effort to be more polite. I once kept
> searching for one in a shopping mall and walked by the sign that said
> "public facilities" several times. I didn't know what they were talking
> about.)
>
>
> My question has to do with polite actions on the part of people who
> don't share the religious belief. Is it more considerate for me to
> spell it G-d too, or is that affected, acting as though that's important
> to me when it isn't. I finally decided to spell the word God unless
> specifically asked not to by people I love and respect.
>
>
> --Lia
>
>
Ahhhh....<lightbulb moment> Ok, now I understand. Thanks so much for
the explanation.

For the record, I agree with you on how to handle it as someone who
doesn't share the religious belief. I would willingly comply if someone
I cared about asked me not to do it, but would feel it was really
affected of me to do so otherwise.
--
Donna
A pessimist believes all women are bad. An optimist hopes they are.

Boron Elgar wrote:
> But you do realize that the reform movement began in Germany, not the
> US, but don't let that stop your bigoted ideas.

And look at what type of Judaism is recognised in Germany today - orthodox. Go
and try to find an officially recognised Reform community there.

I am sorry that G-d when he wrote the Torah didn't consider what Americans
would think about it and make the appropriate modifications. I don't consider
Christianity to be Jewish either even though there is reason for them to call
themselves Jewish too. Many Christians consider themselves to be the Jews of
today and that G-d substituted them for us. Am I a bigot for not considering
these Christians Jewish too? From what I could tell from the definition of
'bigot' it is an intolerant person. I can tolerate people believing things
that I don't. But because someone starts believing in recent times something,
I don't have to accept it to be the truth though - for that I am guided by
other considerations. If that is what you consider a bigot then I guess I am
as I don't believe everything everyone else believes in (though I can
certainly tolerate them).

Judaism does not have to satisfy every society and their beliefs and since
political correctness is a very recent invention you can be sure that the
Torah does not follow it either. Sorry. Although you might find some Jews
appologetic about it and ready to explain how the Torah can satisfy the
American societal beliefs, there is actually no problem in it not being so.
The Torah is bigotted because it frowns on homosexuality too - bummer.

I snipped the part of your response mentioning that you took offense at what I
said, but speaking of offense... You can be sure that I am offended by these 2
religions adding the word "Judaism" to their name. What gives them the right
to besmurch orthodox Judaism that way when it was around before they came
along? In the commercial world it would be called a trademark violation I
think, but with regards to Judaism everyone can add their description to it
and confuse the situation and insult us.

regards,
Ben