Hi all. My fiance and I have dusted off an ice cream maker that my ex
wife must have bought on one of her compulsive shopping sprees, but
never used. Thus far, we've made very delicious fig ice cream and
various alterations of standard chocolate and vanilla. My next project
is to make the best "baadam, pista" kulfi in the world with the benefit
of technology that your average Indian or Pakistani kulfi wala simply
doesn't have. However, I am in a quandary about the requisite milk
reduction. Should we boil milk and reduce it by half or two thirds as
in so many other Indian sweets, or should we boil cans of condensed
milk, cool them and then open them? What about evaporated milk? Would
all these processes be largely similar?

Then, what about eggs? No kulfi recipe I've seen uses eggs. Still, I
am tempted to flavor a traditional vanilla based egg custard with
saffron, milk solids, rose water, almonds, pistachios, rose water and
cardamom for an improved texture. But, while the result would be soft
and rich, rather than icy, it might not benefit from a milk reduction
base, thereby leading me back to the initial query. Thoughts are
publicly and privately welcome.

Shukriya in advance,
Orlando

"Orlando Fiol" > wrote in message
.. .
> Hi all. My fiance and I have dusted off an ice cream maker that my ex
> wife must have bought on one of her compulsive shopping sprees, but
> never used. Thus far, we've made very delicious fig ice cream and
> various alterations of standard chocolate and vanilla. My next
> project
> is to make the best "baadam, pista" kulfi in the world with the
> benefit
> of technology that your average Indian or Pakistani kulfi wala simply
> doesn't have. However, I am in a quandary about the requisite milk
> reduction. Should we boil milk and reduce it by half or two thirds as
> in so many other Indian sweets, or should we boil cans of condensed
> milk, cool them and then open them? What about evaporated milk?
> Would
> all these processes be largely similar?
>
> Then, what about eggs? No kulfi recipe I've seen uses eggs. Still, I
> am tempted to flavor a traditional vanilla based egg custard with
> saffron, milk solids, rose water, almonds, pistachios, rose water and
> cardamom for an improved texture. But, while the result would be soft
> and rich, rather than icy, it might not benefit from a milk reduction
> base, thereby leading me back to the initial query. Thoughts are
> publicly and privately welcome.
>
> Shukriya in advance,
> Orlando

I wouldn't think you'd need to reduce the milk if you're using eggs and
a machine. I believe the milk reduction is primarily for texture, and
you're already going your own way with texture.

I also suspect eggs and heavier dairy fat would overwhelm the kulfi
flavors. If you must use eggs, maybe a lower dairy fat gelato recipe
could be the model. Or an eggless one using condensed milk might work
best. It would be less icy than traditional Kulfi, but not as
rich/indulgent as frozen custard. Basically, creamy texture comes at the
expense of subtle flavors in frozen desserts.

-T

On Mon 16 May 2005 12:04:21a, Orlando Fiol wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Hi all. My fiance and I have dusted off an ice cream maker that my ex
> wife must have bought on one of her compulsive shopping sprees, but
> never used. Thus far, we've made very delicious fig ice cream and
> various alterations of standard chocolate and vanilla. My next project
> is to make the best "baadam, pista" kulfi in the world with the benefit
> of technology that your average Indian or Pakistani kulfi wala simply
> doesn't have. However, I am in a quandary about the requisite milk
> reduction. Should we boil milk and reduce it by half or two thirds as
> in so many other Indian sweets, or should we boil cans of condensed
> milk, cool them and then open them? What about evaporated milk? Would
> all these processes be largely similar?
>
> Then, what about eggs? No kulfi recipe I've seen uses eggs. Still, I
> am tempted to flavor a traditional vanilla based egg custard with
> saffron, milk solids, rose water, almonds, pistachios, rose water and
> cardamom for an improved texture. But, while the result would be soft
> and rich, rather than icy, it might not benefit from a milk reduction
> base, thereby leading me back to the initial query. Thoughts are
> publicly and privately welcome.
>
> Shukriya in advance,
> Orlando

Many years ago after being inspired by a superb Indian meal, I decided to
attempt recreating the dessert. This was before the Internet and I went
only by the description on the menu and my experience with making
traditional ice cream. The description of the dessert was a "goat's milk
ice cream sweetened with natural sugar and flavored with rosewater and
pistachios". I don't know if this is related to Kulfi. I can tell you
that the goat's milk is exceedingly rich compared to the usual cow's milk.
I heated the milk only enough to thoroughly dissolve the sugar, then added
the rosewater to taste. I refrigerated the mixture over night, the
transferred it to my ice cream maker. When the mixture was nearly stiff
but still cream, I added slightly crushed pistachios, then continued
freezing until quite firm. The result was delicious.

You might consider using goat's milk. If not, I would use a mixture of
full-fat milk and half-and-half cream. While there's certainly nothing
wrong with using canned milk products, they do have a distinctive taste of
their own which might alter the effect you want of the spices. I would not
use eggs.

I'm inspired again by the quest to make this again, including the spices
you mentioned.

Let us know how your efforts turn out.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

Most indian sweets do not use eggs, including Kulfi.

The ingredient that will make the kulfi set into a hard
solid when cooled would be something called "khoa",
which is basically milk reduced to only the solids by
boiling with constant stirring. My guess is that
substituting with dry milk powder would be equivalent,
or you can look for 'khoa' in a local indian grocery
store (i would be careful about the quality - the store
probably has it on the shelf in the cooler for a
longish time).

here is what I would suggest:

2 tins condensed milk (sweetened)
1 cup whole fat milk
1 cup khoa (or 1/2 cup milk powder)
1/2 tbsp AP Flour
dry fruits as you fancy...

mix milk, condensed milk, milk power and heat to a
boil. Add the flour and cook for another 2-5 minutes.
Stir constantly to prevent the bottom from burning.

Usually this would be put into molds and frozen as is,
but you could put this into your icecream maker and
give it a whirl!

Let us know how it turns out, I have never tried it in
an icecream maker...

If you are adventurous, you could try adding one of
mascarapone, cream cheese, ricotta for different
variations on the flavour, you might need to reduce the
amount of the milk powder accordingly.

Shubh Kamnaen,
Irax.
http://rumimmi.blogspot.com [my AdSense experiment]

wrote:
>I wouldn't think you'd need to reduce the milk if you're using eggs and
>a machine. I believe the milk reduction is primarily for texture, and
>you're already going your own way with texture.

I was thinking the reduced milk would also contribute a uniquely
concentrated, intense milk flavor.

>I also suspect eggs and heavier dairy fat would overwhelm the kulfi
>flavors.

I figure I can just add more flavors.

>If you must use eggs, maybe a lower dairy fat gelato recipe
>could be the model. Or an eggless one using condensed milk might work
>best. It would be less icy than traditional Kulfi, but not as
>rich/indulgent as frozen custard. Basically, creamy texture comes at the
>expense of subtle flavors in frozen desserts.

I'd say that kulfi flavors are bold rather than subtle. I have a few
recipes that require boiling cans of condensed milk and then letting
them cool before opening. What's the logic behind this process?
Couldn't the cans of condensed milk be dumped into a pot and heated?

Orlando

wrote:
>Many years ago after being inspired by a superb Indian meal, I decided to
>attempt recreating the dessert. This was before the Internet and I went
>only by the description on the menu and my experience with making
>traditional ice cream. The description of the dessert was a "goat's milk
>ice cream sweetened with natural sugar and flavored with rosewater and
>pistachios". I don't know if this is related to Kulfi.

That would definitely be a version of it.

>I can tell you that the goat's milk is exceedingly rich compared to the usual cow's milk.

INdians think so too.

>I heated the milk only enough to thoroughly dissolve the sugar, then added
>the rosewater to taste. I refrigerated the mixture over night, the
>transferred it to my ice cream maker. When the mixture was nearly stiff
>but still cream, I added slightly crushed pistachios, then continued
>freezing until quite firm. The result was delicious.

Can you interrupt the ice cream making process once the maker starts
freezing and churning to add ingredients?

You might consider using goat's milk. If not, I would use a mixture of
>full-fat milk and half-and-half cream. While there's certainly nothing
>wrong with using canned milk products, they do have a distinctive taste of
>their own which might alter the effect you want of the spices. I would not
>use eggs.
>
>I'm inspired again by the quest to make this again, including the spices
>you mentioned.

I'm really going to think about goat's milk. Otherwise, I think I might
try leaving out eggs and going for a condensed milk based recipe.

>Let us know how your efforts turn out.
Surely.

Thanks,
Orlando

On Tue 17 May 2005 07:52:36p, Orlando Fiol wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Can you interrupt the ice cream making process once the maker starts
> freezing and churning to add ingredients?

I can with mine, and I imagine one could with most of them.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

>
I'd say that kulfi flavors are bold rather than subtle. I have a few
recipes that require boiling cans of condensed milk and then letting
them cool before opening. What's the logic behind this process?
Couldn't the cans of condensed milk be dumped into a pot and heated?

Orlando
>
Several recipes for kulfi ice cream may be found at:
http://fooddownunder.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=kulfi

Hope this helps. --Esther

at Mon, 16 May 2005 07:04:21 GMT in <MPG.1cf20fad3c6943aa989686
@news.verizon.net>, (Orlando Fiol) wrote :

>Hi all. My fiance and I have dusted off an ice cream maker that my ex
>wife must have bought on one of her compulsive shopping sprees, but
>never used. Thus far, we've made very delicious fig ice cream and
>various alterations of standard chocolate and vanilla. My next project
>is to make the best "baadam, pista" kulfi in the world with the benefit
>of technology that your average Indian or Pakistani kulfi wala simply
>doesn't have. However, I am in a quandary about the requisite milk
>reduction. Should we boil milk and reduce it by half or two thirds as
>in so many other Indian sweets, or should we boil cans of condensed
>milk, cool them and then open them? What about evaporated milk? Would
>all these processes be largely similar?

I have made ice cream as you describe. Doing the proper boiled-milk
approach is tedious and labour-intensive, but worth the effort. That's what
I did. Reduce it almost until it turns into milk-fudge. The proper
consistency in the pot should be the same as an au ruban egg-foam for
genoise cake, although of course no eggs are involved.

Sweetened condensed milk would be a *bad* idea because the name is a total
misnomer. What is called "sweetened condensed milk" would be better
described as "creamed sugar syrup" because it's in fact mostly sugar with a
token amount of milk thrown in. Evaporated milk would be a better bet, but
it doesn't approach the level of reduction you get using classic technique.
However, you might try starting out with evaporated milk and reducing it
further. Another approach is to use non-instant milk powder and add just
enough water to achieve a good texture. This is best with whole milk powder
but it can also be done with non-fat provided that you add a little cream.

The big thing the classic method contributes is that all the stirring that
you do to reduce the milk causes the proteins to form in the proper
structure whereas industrial processes tend to leave milk reductions (such
as evaporated or powdered milk) with short protein chains. This has a
significant effect on the texture.

>>Then, what about eggs? No kulfi recipe I've seen uses eggs.

Don't use them and if you do the milk reduction they shouldn't be necessary
anyway. Eggs would add their own flavour...

> Still, I
>am tempted to flavor a traditional vanilla based egg custard with
>saffron, milk solids, rose water, almonds, pistachios, rose water and
>cardamom for an improved texture.

....and the flavour of eggs clashes badly with the rosewater and saffron, so
this really makes for a poor result. Good reduced milk will still yield
excellent texture owing to what I just described about protein formation.
However, I'd expect a product made with evaporated or powdered milk to be
considerably more icy.

> But, while the result would be soft
>and rich, rather than icy, it might not benefit from a milk reduction
>base, thereby leading me back to the initial query. Thoughts are
>publicly and privately welcome.

It's worth noting, although this doesn't apply what you're trying to do,
that custard made with a milk reduction base *does* benefit from it,
immensely. The texture is unbelievably hyper-silken and rich, and in fact
you can produce a warm stirred custard in this way that has the texture of
a pudding (as opposed to being more of a pourable object). Needless to say
it chills well and sets up readily. It also makes for an incredible base
for vanilla ice cream. I wouldn't use eggs with the classic kulfi
flavourings but as a base for vanilla, nut, and chocolate ice creams a
reduced-milk custard is the best.


--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

Orlando Fiol wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>I wouldn't think you'd need to reduce the milk if you're using eggs and
>>a machine. I believe the milk reduction is primarily for texture, and
>>you're already going your own way with texture.
>
>
> I was thinking the reduced milk would also contribute a uniquely
> concentrated, intense milk flavor.
>
And the dense texture. It is time consuming. Kulfi without the reducing
is just ice cream.
I describe the process of reducing in the close detail that came
easily to me when I was not a mother
AND the sole support of a family, in a post on rec.food.cooking
titled RAS MALAI CONQUERED (you can google "rec.food.cooking ras orwell
tj" and you'll get it). (You can also google this group and "Lebanese
Dog Party" to get a good recipe for cardi and saffron ice cream.)
I mentioned orwell, because I read while I stirred. My thumb got sore.
Let us know how your experience goes.
blacksalt

wrote:
>I have made ice cream as you describe. Doing the proper boiled-milk
>approach is tedious and labour-intensive, but worth the effort. That's what
>I did. Reduce it almost until it turns into milk-fudge. The proper
>consistency in the pot should be the same as an au ruban egg-foam for
>genoise cake, although of course no eggs are involved.

I'm not averse to making my own milk reduction after your description of
its advantages. besides, I too have done it in the past.

>Sweetened condensed milk would be a *bad* idea because the name is a total
>misnomer. What is called "sweetened condensed milk" would be better
>described as "creamed sugar syrup" because it's in fact mostly sugar with a
>token amount of milk thrown in.

I was afraid of that. Is this your theory or can it be verified with an
ingredients list somewhere?

>Evaporated milk would be a better bet, but
>it doesn't approach the level of reduction you get using classic technique.

Precisely the kind of feedback I sought.

However, you might try starting out with evaporated milk and reducing it
>further. Another approach is to use non-instant milk powder and add just
>enough water to achieve a good texture. This is best with whole milk powder
>but it can also be done with non-fat provided that you add a little cream.

Does non instant milk powder need to be boiled? is that why it isn't
instant?

>The big thing the classic method contributes is that all the stirring that
>you do to reduce the milk causes the proteins to form in the proper
>structure whereas industrial processes tend to leave milk reductions (such
>as evaporated or powdered milk) with short protein chains. This has a
>significant effect on the texture.

Very interesting, since the icy texture is my only criticism of real
Indian kulfi.

>Don't use them and if you do the milk reduction they shouldn't be necessary
>anyway. Eggs would add their own flavour...

Would that necessarily be a bad flavor though?

>this really makes for a poor result. Good reduced milk will still yield
>excellent texture owing to what I just described about protein formation.
>However, I'd expect a product made with evaporated or powdered milk to be
>considerably more icy.

Icy bad!

>It's worth noting, although this doesn't apply what you're trying to do,
>that custard made with a milk reduction base *does* benefit from it,
>immensely. The texture is unbelievably hyper-silken and rich, and in fact
>you can produce a warm stirred custard in this way that has the texture of
>a pudding (as opposed to being more of a pourable object). Needless to say
>it chills well and sets up readily. It also makes for an incredible base
>for vanilla ice cream.

So, are you aiming to reduce milk to the quantity specified in a typical
custard recipe and then combine it with eggs, sugar, vanilla and
whatever else?

>I wouldn't use eggs with the classic kulfi
>flavourings but as a base for vanilla, nut, and chocolate ice creams a
>reduced-milk custard is the best.

Point very well taken.

Thanks,
Orlando

l wrote:
>Most indian sweets do not use eggs, including Kulfi.

Hence my trepidation.

>The ingredient that will make the kulfi set into a hard
>solid when cooled would be something called "khoa",
>which is basically milk reduced to only the solids by
>boiling with constant stirring.

Which I planned to include anyway.

>My guess is that substituting with dry milk powder would be equivalent,
>or you can look for 'khoa' in a local indian grocery
>store (i would be careful about the quality - the store
>probably has it on the shelf in the cooler for a
>longish time).

I've used what my local store sells in other sweets to delicious effect.

>here is what I would suggest:
>2 tins condensed milk (sweetened)
>1 cup whole fat milk
>1 cup khoa (or 1/2 cup milk powder)
>1/2 tbsp AP Flour
>dry fruits as you fancy...
>
>mix milk, condensed milk, milk power and heat to a
>boil. Add the flour and cook for another 2-5 minutes.
>Stir constantly to prevent the bottom from burning.

Why flour?

Orlando

>>mix milk, condensed milk, milk power and heat to a
>>boil. Add the flour and cook for another 2-5 minutes.
>>Stir constantly to prevent the bottom from burning.
>
>
> Why flour?
>

A little AP Flour, or rice flour is the traditional
thickening agent in most indian dishes. Its AP flour
for north indian dishes, and rice flour for south
indian dishes...

Irax.
http://fusionrasoi.blogspot.com

at Fri, 20 May 2005 04:25:03 GMT in
>, (Orlando
Fiol) wrote :

wrote:
....
>
>>Sweetened condensed milk would be a *bad* idea because the name is a
>>total misnomer. What is called "sweetened condensed milk" would be
>>better described as "creamed sugar syrup" because it's in fact mostly
>>sugar with a token amount of milk thrown in.
>
>I was afraid of that. Is this your theory or can it be verified with an
>ingredients list somewhere?

Straight off the "Nutrition Facts" on the label:

For 2 tbsp

Total Fat: 3g
Total Protein: 3g
Total Carb: 23g

Now, from the same label for whole milk:

For 1 cup
Total Fat: 8g
Total Protein: 8g
Total Carb: 11g

From a label for sugar:

For 1 tsp:
Total Carb: 4g
others 0

For the can, there are 10*2 tbsp total quantity: so this means fat=30g,
protein=30g carb=230g

Since the protein and fat come entirely from the milk, the total carbs from
the milk we could expect to be 11/8*30 = 41.25g. So the contribution from
sugar is 230-41.25 = 188.75g. In a cup, there are 48 tsp. So the number of
carbs in a cup of sugar is 192 - and therefore there's pretty close to a
*cup* of sugar in a 14-oz can of SCM. Meanwhile in a cup there are 16 tbsp,
so again assuming the Nutrition Facts label is accurate that there are 20
tbsp of product in the can (staying aware of the fact that these
conversions may not be strictly accurate since the can is sold by weight
and the Nutrition Facts info is being given by volume), close to 4/5 of the
contents of the can is sugar. Sobering.

>However, you might try starting out with evaporated milk and reducing it
>>further. Another approach is to use non-instant milk powder and add
>>just enough water to achieve a good texture.
>
>Does non instant milk powder need to be boiled? is that why it isn't
>instant?

No, it doesn't need to be boiled. It's non-instant because it's in a powder
form and doesn't dissolve immediately in water. In fact, to reconstitute
the milk to normal amounts of water you have to make a paste first and then
add more water to thin because otherwise the powder will clump and you'll
never make it smooth. But for emulating reduced milk it's great because
there you're not wanting to add that much water in the first place.

>>Don't use them and if you do the milk reduction they shouldn't be
>>necessary anyway. Eggs would add their own flavour...
>
>Would that necessarily be a bad flavor though?

IMHO yes. Eggs and rosewater clash badly. Eggs and cardamom are scarcely
better.

>>It's worth noting, although this doesn't apply what you're trying to
>>do, that custard made with a milk reduction base *does* benefit from
>>it, immensely. The texture is unbelievably hyper-silken and rich, and
>>in fact you can produce a warm stirred custard in this way that has the
>>texture of a pudding (as opposed to being more of a pourable object).
>>Needless to say it chills well and sets up readily. It also makes for
>>an incredible base for vanilla ice cream.
>
>So, are you aiming to reduce milk to the quantity specified in a typical
>custard recipe and then combine it with eggs, sugar, vanilla and
>whatever else?

No, you generally have to play around with the ratios of milk and eggs
because by reducing the milk you've changed the amount of water and this
will change the consistency, making it a good deal thicker. This might not
be a good thing, if, for instance, you were hoping for a sauce and instead
got something closer to a pudding in thickness. So you generally need to
find egg/milk ratios that work for the thickness you're looking to achieve.

--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)