I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow the
directions and it works, mostly.

Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to use
margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
seized.

But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
have some water content.

Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.

maxine in ri

On Thu, 19 May 2005, maxine in ri wrote:

> I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow the
> directions and it works, mostly.
>
> Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
> for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to use
> margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
> seized.
>
> But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
> have some water content.
>
> Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.
>
> maxine in ri
>


I don't know if this is what you need... I was just sitting here reading
this group and watching "Good Eats" with Alton Brown on the Food Network.
The whole show was about chocolate (what it is, how it is handled, and
what can go wrong and why). I wish I had paid more attention. But he did
say that if you melt it in a double boiler, and if one drop of the water
drops into the chocolate, it will be a big {sorry don't remember the exact
word) "glob" - esque and it will be ruined. Is that what "seizing" is (a
big glob you have to throw away?)

He used pats of butter in melting choc for several different recipes -
including
the ganach you mentioned. He used milk, cream and brandy, all of which has
some water content.

The chemistry lady that guests on his show was there talking about the
molecular structure of chocolate. She said when melting, keep the heat
about 92 degrees (90 to 94 degrees) to keep the structure from changing.

Alton said to melt chocolate in microwave. Zap for 10 seconds and stir;
repeat over and over until chocolate begins to melt, then zap for 5
seconds and stir; repeat until chocolate is melted, (He did add butter to
it in the beginning).

He also melted chocolate in a bowl set in a heating pad set in a bigger
bowl.

If you get the Food Network, check it out. If not, check out
WWW.foodnetwork.com

I don't have a clue if any of this helps or not.

Elaine, too

at Thu, 19 May 2005 22:48:14 GMT in <kj5q81ds748sqbscftd261l41fip5ka0qb@
4ax.com>, group (maxine in ri) wrote :

>I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow the
>directions and it works, mostly.
>
>Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
>for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to use
>margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
>seized.
>
>But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
>have some water content.
>
>Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.
>

Margarine would in and of itself probably not cause chocolate to seize. I
don't think it would make a good choice in terms of flavour and texture
(butter is a better choice) but that's a separate question. Water by itself
causes chocolate to seize because it forces crystallisation of the cocoa
butter in an undesirable crystal form and binds up the non-fat solids.
Cocoa butter has multiple crystal forms with slightly different melting
temperatures. When water is accidentally dripped into chocolate, it
instantly crystallises some of the cocoa butter into a random crystalline
form. Then, the water penetrates the non-fat constituents and glues them
together like cornstarch. The bad crystal shape meanwhile acts as a seed
which recrystallises the rest of the cocoa butter, thereby allowing the
water to clump even more of the cocoa... and you get a runaway effect.

Now, if you add liquids when they're warm, they won't recrystallise the
cocoa butter. And if the quantity of liquid relative to the quantity of
chocolate is reasonably high, instead of clumping up the cocoa particles,
it dissolves them into a smooth mass. Think again of cornstarch. If you add
enough water, and stir it in hot, you can make a smooth liquid rather than
an ugly, gummy paste - and this is basically what you do when you make
gravy. In a similar vein, you can safely melt chocolate in a reasonable
amount of hot water (try it! It works). This is why adding hot cream to
chocolate in ganache works, too.

The classic tactic of adding vegetable shortening to seized chocolate in
order to salvage it works because shortening contains emulsifiers that
break up the cocoa butter and penetrates the clumped-up cocoa. I don't
recommend this method except as a desperation tactic when you're out of
options - the best thing to do is throw the batch out and start again.

Margarine, butter, etc. should also not cause seizing because here the
moisture is suspended in a lot of fat. These fats stabilise the crystalline
structure of cocoa butter enough that it isn't so finicky (which is why,
for instance, you can make an icing using simply butter and chocolate and
it doesn't need to be tempered). The only risk with margarine might be, if
it has a LOT of water, and is melted rapidly, condensing steam might seize
up the chocolate before the fat could be mixed in. That's probably what
happened to your acquaintance - if she was using a double-boiler,
especially, it could have been condensing steam that was the problem.


--
Alex Rast

(remove d., .7, not, and .NOSPAM to reply)

On Thu, 19 May 2005 18:48:14 -0400, maxine in ri >
wrote:

>I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow the
>directions and it works, mostly.
>
>Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
>for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to use
>margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
>seized.
>
>But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
>have some water content.
>
>Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.
>
>maxine in ri

It's the proportion. If you add a small amount of water to granulated
sugar, it will "seize," i.,e. form a clump. You've seen it when
people stir their coffee then use the spoon to get more sugar; the
drops of coffee form clumps in the sugar. But if you add sugar to a
lot of water it will dissolve.

Something like that :>

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

maxine in ri at wrote on 5/19/05 6:48 PM:

> I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow the
> directions and it works, mostly.
>
> Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
> for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to use
> margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
> seized.
>
> But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
> have some water content.

Ahh, but there's more fat than water in cream or butter. Way more.
I've only ever melted chocolate in butter, not margarine, so honestly I
don't know if it's the water in the margarine or not. But I wouldn't use
margarine with chocolate. The flavor isn't right, to me.
>
> Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.
>
> maxine in ri

In article >, group wrote:

> I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow the
> directions and it works, mostly.
>
> Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
> for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to use
> margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
> seized.
>
> But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
> have some water content.
>
> Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.
>
> maxine in ri

Try sci.bio.food-science.
Al Sicherman wrote about this for the Star Tribune rag here many years
ago and it's one of those mystical things where a drop of water in
melted chocolate will cause it to seize, but lots of water will not.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

This recipe has a note that its chocolate is melted *with* water so as
not to seize when its cream is added to it.
http://www.joyofbaking.com/CranberryChristmasCake.html

Try sci.bio.food-science.
--
-Barb, <http://www.jamlady.eboard.com> 5/8/05.
"Are we going to measure, or are we going to cook?" -Food Critic Mimi Sheraton

I learned something today. Thank you all. I'll pass on the relevant
information, of which there is much, to the lady in question, and with
luck she will be able to concoct glorious chocolate confections using
it.

maxine in ri

Margarine! Using margarine in rec.food.cooking is nearly as bad as not
posting according to the rules! Crucifiable offenses, both!

Seriously (ok, I was serious about following the rules here. People go
ballistic!), I haven't cooked with margarine since I got serious about
cooking a few years ago. If it's about health, it's very arguable which
is better for you. And flavor, there's no comparison! I guess if my
doctor told me I had to give up butter or die, I'd die!

As far as the chocolate goes, I haven't a clue!

maxine in ri wrote:
> I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow
the
> directions and it works, mostly.
>
> Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
> for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to
use
> margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
> seized.
>
> But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
> have some water content.
>
> Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.
>
> maxine in ri

Ah, but what about the lactose-intolerant, the kosher-observant, the
young with untrained tastebuds and thin wallets?

If that's the worst sin I commit here, who cares?

maxine in ri

"maxine in ri" > wrote in message
...
> I'm no expert when it comes to cooking with chocolate, just follow the
> directions and it works, mostly.
>
> Someone was telling me about a recipe she had that seized. It called
> for baking chocolate and margarine. One person advised her not to use
> margarine because it has water in it and that was why the chocolate
> seized.
>
> But I got to thinking, ganache uses cream and butter, both of which
> have some water content.
>
> Any help understanding the "chemistry" here would be appreciated.
>
> maxine in ri

In a nutshell, a small amount of water will cause seizing, but a larger
amount will not. Generally, the fat in margarine should prevent seizing
(thought I would never use margarine with chocolate anyway, but that's just
me :-) ). However, it could be that it was burned or moisture contaminated
it from another source as well.
What happens essentially is that the dry cocoa particles, or crystals, are
pretty evenly suspended in fat; introduce a small amount of liquid and those
particles get wet and clump together, creating a different kind of
crystalline structure. With larger amounts, the crystals are evenly
distributed, creating an emulsion (kind of like mayonnaise, fat suspended in
water).
Basically seizing comes from one of 3 things: First, melting at too high
heat, thereby burning the chocolate. Adding cold liquid to warm chocolate is
second (just think about what happens of you put melted chocolate in the
freezer). This one is easier to fix. Third is a small amount of liquid got
in there and rearranged everything!

Hope this helps..

kimberly