General Cooking (rec.food.cooking) For general food and cooking discussion. Foods of all kinds, food procurement, cooking methods and techniques, eating, etc.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #121 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob (this one)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Bob wrote:

> Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>>Our local Italian deli sells them, one is even a thin tubular, hollow
>>>spaghetti, not a cannelloni but a long tubular spaghetti.

>>
>>Called "bucatini."

>
> I got a box of bucatini once, and found myself unable to come up with a
> recipe which takes advantage of its shape. Most sauce is too thick to
> permeate to the middle of the pasta. Is there some traditional use for it?
> My best guess at this point is that you're supposed to serve it in broth,
> like Japanese udon.


No.

But it's a funny thing. Because there's a small hole that runs through
the middle of each strand, you can't suck them up like you can
spaghetti. It's like trying to suck a drinking straw into your mouth. So
naturally, that's what we did as kids while the grownups acted like they
didn't notice.

My northern Italian grandmother served both semolina and whole wheat
bucatini with very thick sauces. Usually tomato-based with strong flavor
elements (sausage, salty ham, pecorino cheese, etc.), but sometimes a
heavy cream sauce (occasionally including fish or seafood).

Pastorio
  #122 (permalink)   Report Post  
-L.
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Bob wrote:
>
> I got a box of bucatini once, and found myself unable to come up with a
> recipe which takes advantage of its shape. Most sauce is too thick to
> permeate to the middle of the pasta. Is there some traditional use for it?
> My best guess at this point is that you're supposed to serve it in broth,
> like Japanese udon.
>
> Bob


A Greek friend of mine made an awesome dish with it once - maybe it
wasn't bucatini but the Greek equivalent. I'm not sure what the dish
was - it had a veal/beef sauce which contained (among othe rthings)
cinnamon, and was topped with a fluffy white-sauce-like cheesish layer.
It was great!

-L.

  #123 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob
 
Posts: n/a
Default

-L wrote:

> A Greek friend of mine made an awesome dish with it once - maybe it
> wasn't bucatini but the Greek equivalent. I'm not sure what the dish
> was - it had a veal/beef sauce which contained (among othe rthings)
> cinnamon, and was topped with a fluffy white-sauce-like cheesish layer.
> It was great!


Maybe you're talking about pastitsio? Here's a recipe chosen at random from
Google:

(Posted by Jeanette in response to Damsel, October 2002)

Prep time: 30 min. Bake time: 35 or so min. Oven: 350°

8 oz. corkscrew pasta (or elbow type)
Cook, following pkg directions, till slightly al dente. Drain ell,
return to pan & toss with 2-3 T oleo


Meat Sauce:
1/2# lean ground beef
1 sm onion, minced
1 clove garlic, minced
1/4 t crushed fennel
1/2 t cinnamon
1/4 t allspice or cloves


1 - 8 oz can tomato sauce
1/2 c water, or slightly more
Salt & Pepper to taste


1/4 c parmesan cheese (fresh)


In medium skillet, cook ground beef and seasonings till meat is no
longer pink. DRAIN FAT. Add tomato sauce and water. Simmer about 20
min. till thickened. Removefrom burner. Add the parmesan cheese and
stir well.


White Sauce:
4 T oleo/butter
4 T flour
1/4 t pepper
1/2 t salt
2 c milk (use whole, or whatever)
2 slightly beaten eggs


1/4 to 1/2 c feta cheese,crumbled
1/4 t nutmeg


Melt oleo in medium saucepan; blend in flour, salt & pepper. Whisk in
milk till all is well blended and cook till thickened and bubbly.
Gradually whisk part of the hot sauce into lightly beaten eggs. Return
all to pan, whisking togther till blended. Stir in feta cheese &
nutmeg.


Layer half of pasta in 2 qt. square baking dish (9 x 9) sprayed with
Pam. Spread meat mixture over pasta. Spread remaining pasta on top of
meat mixture.
Evenly spread white sauce mixture on top. Shake pan to distribue evenly.
Sprinkle with Parmesan cheese. (May be prepared in advance to this
point and frozen.) Bake uncovered in 350° oven about 35 min. or till
set. Let stand for 10 min.


TO FREEZE: Place in freeze-to-oven baking dish. Wrap with foil and
freez up to one month. To serve, place in 350° oven for 1-1/2 hours.
Uncover during last 20 min. of baking time.


(Double batch takes about 1-1/2 hours.)


To accompany it:
Greek Salad - serves 12


1/2 c extra virgin olive oil
3 T red wine vinegar
3 T lemon juice
2 T chopped oregano (or about 1 T dried)
1 T chopped mint (or dried)
Salt & pepper
4 romaine hearts, torn
6 medium tomatoes, cored & cut into wedges
6 Kirby cucumbers, peeled & sliced 1/2 in.
thick (or plain cucumbers)
1/2 # feta cheese, crumbled (about 1-1/2 cups)
1 c kalamata olives, pitted (6 oz.)


In a small bowl, whisk together the olive oil, lemon juice, oregano and
mint. Season with salt & pepper. In a large bowl, combine the romaine,
tomatoes, cucumbers, cheese and olives. Toss and serve at once.


  #124 (permalink)   Report Post  
JimLane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> On Wed 29 Jun 2005 11:09:10p, Damsel wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>
>>JimLane > said:
>>
>>
>>>Slam dunk. Italian pasta DOES exist in four-foot lengths. $1.99 17.6 oz.

>>
>>Told ya!
>>
>>I'd love to find some of that again. You can feed a family of five on 15
>>strands of the stuff. LOL!
>>
>>Carol
>>

>
>
> But at a dollar a strand, it's not really a bargain. :-)
>


What? Now I gotta go back and count strands? Never any rest.


jim
  #125 (permalink)   Report Post  
twillis
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Glitter Ninja wrote:
> Goomba38 > writes:
>
> >No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
> >ravioli, macaroni...)
> >It grates on the ear.

>
> OK, I'll do whatever you say.
> By the way, there is a definite need to quote what you're following up
> to, so we know what the hell you're talking about. I expect you to now
> do what *I* say.
>


This seems a good a place as any to mention that I am Mightily
Entertained when I give Harlan spaghetti, one strand at a time. He is
the CUTE!

He is also Mightily Entertained, but hasn't mentioned whether he thinks
I am the cute.



  #127 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kate Connally
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
> Kate Connally wrote:
> > Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
> >
> >> Kate Connally wrote:
> >>
> >>> Damsel wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> When I was a kid, we got boxes of spaghetti that were about 4
> >>>> inches square on the ends, and around 3 feet long. The pasta
> >>>> inside was folded in half, so you were talking strands at least
> >>>> 5-1/2 feet long. One or two were all that a fork could hold.
> >>>
> >>> Good grief! How did you get them into the pot to cook them if
> >>> they were that long? Even folded in half they'd be too big for
> >>> any pot I've ever seen.

>
> Spaghetti will soften and become flexible within seconds of being put
> into rapidly boiling water.


NOT in my experience!!!

> The pot merely needs to be able to hold the
> appropriate amount of water.


Well, the pot is full - holds about 2 gallons of water!

> >> The Chinese method of making long spaghetti like noodles produces 4
> >> - 5 foot long strands.

> >
> > Yeah, I know about that. Not the same thing. I'm talking regular
> > dried spaghetti in a box.

>
> How about in a clear plastic bag?


Whatever.

> >>> Even foot-long spaghetti is tough to get under the water all at
> >>> once, so I can't even begin to see how people would manage
> >>> anything longer. I suspect it was meant to be broken into more
> >>> manageable lengths when put in the pot.
> >>
> >>> That is how it is most often cooked but it can be cooked whole in a
> >>> tall pot. It quickly softens and folds itself into the water.

> >
> > Not my experience, but it might happen that way with really fine
> > spaghettini or angel hair. The "regular" size spaghetti, which is
> > what I prefer, takes forever to soften enough to get it all under the
> > water.

>
> "Forever" is about a minute with rapidly boiling water in sufficient
> quantity.


Well, duh! A minute *is* forever when you're trying to
get the spaghetti in the water.

> At least a gallon per pound. Less than that and the water
> temperature drops significantly and it won't come back to a boil very
> quickly. So the pasta isn't at an appropriate level of turbulence and
> temperature. Stirring it often adds to the natural convection and
> turbulence of boiling. All necessary to get it done properly.


Okay, but this wasn't part of the discussion. Just getting
the spaghetti to soften enough to bend and get it all under
the water. The other points you are making are moot.

> > I don't cook mine in a tall stockpot but in my dutch oven
> > and even the regular foot-long stuff doesn't go completely under the
> > water until it has softened up enough to bend.

>
> That's too wide and shallow a pot and not enough water. You want a tall,
> narrow pot to keep the water boiling hard.


No, I don't. If I did I would use one. It is too cumbersome
to use the big stockpot in most instances. I've been using the
other pot for over 30 years and it works fine. The problem is
that the spaghetti is too long! Sheesh! And it takes "forever"
to soften enough to get under the water.

> A wide-topped pot has too
> much surface area for water to evaporate from, and the extra evaporation
> keeps the water from a full, hard boil.


My dutch oven is the same diameter as my stock pot!

> A pound of pasta, any shape,
> dropped into a gallon of boiling water should return to a full, rolling
> boil in no more than two minutes. All stranded pasta will flex enough to
> submerge in that time.


2 minutes? Yikes! That's like *forever and a day*! Sheesh!

Kate
  #128 (permalink)   Report Post  
Kate Connally
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Goomba38 wrote:
>
> No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
> ravioli, macaroni...)
> It grates on the ear. Same as when people add an "s" to ravioli (which
> is already plural) so the "s" is inappropriate.
> Rant Over.
> Carry On


Well, sometimes, if you're trying to differentiate
between the dish (spaghetti noodles topped with
sauce) and the actual noodle (sans sauce) it might
be okay to say "spaghetti noodles" so that people
don't think you're referring to the dish. Although
you could just say "noodles" and that would do in
many cases but I can see where there might be a case
where you really need to say "spaghetti noodles". :-)

Kate
  #129 (permalink)   Report Post  
Andy
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Kate Connally > wrote in :

> The problem is that the spaghetti is too long!


Your tryin' start an optimist/pessimist debate???

The pot is simply the wrong shape!



--
Andy
http://tinyurl.com/bczgr
  #130 (permalink)   Report Post  
sf
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:18:29 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
>
> But it's a funny thing. Because there's a small hole that runs through
> the middle of each strand, you can't suck them up like you can
> spaghetti. It's like trying to suck a drinking straw into your mouth. So
> naturally, that's what we did as kids while the grownups acted like they
> didn't notice.
>

Does the "ini" part of bucatini refer to the hole? They don't twirl
well either... although I have a package in the cupboard as we speak,
I rarely use it because I'm usually at a loss about what to do with it
too. It's just plain hard to eat w/o cutting. LOL

> My northern Italian grandmother served both semolina and whole wheat
> bucatini with very thick sauces. Usually tomato-based with strong flavor
> elements (sausage, salty ham, pecorino cheese, etc.), but sometimes a
> heavy cream sauce (occasionally including fish or seafood).


Did she serve the bucatini whole? Can you give us the basic recipe
(or at least a grandma style one) for her cream sauce?


  #131 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wayne Boatwright
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu 30 Jun 2005 08:32:02a, Kate Connally wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Goomba38 wrote:
>>
>> No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
>> ravioli, macaroni...) It grates on the ear. Same as when people add an
>> "s" to ravioli (which is already plural) so the "s" is inappropriate.
>> Rant Over.
>> Carry On

>
> Well, sometimes, if you're trying to differentiate
> between the dish (spaghetti noodles topped with
> sauce) and the actual noodle (sans sauce) it might
> be okay to say "spaghetti noodles" so that people
> don't think you're referring to the dish. Although
> you could just say "noodles" and that would do in
> many cases but I can see where there might be a case
> where you really need to say "spaghetti noodles". :-)
>
> Kate
>


But if you just say "noodles" that could mean damn near anything. All
kinds of noodles come to mind, none of them at all like spaghetti.

--
Wayne Boatwright *ż*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0526-3, 06/30/2005
Tested on: 6/30/2005 9:19:33 AM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com



  #132 (permalink)   Report Post  
sf
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:08:27 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
>
> It's interesting. You don't see Italians use the spoon technique until
> you get towards the south. Northerners pull a few strands out of the
> pile and twirl them on the plate onto the fork. You'll see more
> Neapolitans and Sicilians using spoons. Different understanding of
> what's "proper." One set of my grandparents were northerners; the other
> Sicilian. Meals were exhausting.
>

I imagine that the proper way to speak "Italian" was also discussed at
length! For instance, I read that the dialect spoken in Alghero (a
town in/on Sardinia) is actually a derivative of Catalan - which is a
language that is spoken in Spain (in the region around Barcelona).
  #133 (permalink)   Report Post  
TomH
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 08:46:58 -0600, Kevin S. Wilson
> wrote:

>On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:00:38 +0000 (UTC), (Glitter
>Ninja) wrote:
>
>>Goomba38 > writes:
>>
>>>No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
>>>ravioli, macaroni...)
>>>It grates on the ear.

>>
>> OK, I'll do whatever you say.

>
>Not so fast. Goomba (if that is his real name) would be correct except
>for one troublesome fact: linguini, ravioli, and macaroni all
>originated in Italy, while spaghetti noodles is an Americanized type
>of Italian pasta that has always been referred to as "spaghetti
>noodles." The development of spaghetti noodles is similar to that of
>chow mein, a "Chinese" dish that originated in San Francisco,
>California.


Methinks KevinS has been eating too much Chef-Boy-R-Dee
pasta-and-yecchhh in a can. (It leads to 't-rolls', a
serious gastric ailment, sometimes fatal.)

"Spaghetti noodles" sounds redundant to me, if not
superfluous. Like "steak meat" or "salmon fish" or
"automobile car". I don't know that it grates on the ear,
so much; I'll leave that to the parmesan.

Also, I'm more than certain that 'spaghetti' originated in
Italy. Much like the "New York strip" steak didn't
originate in NY, but rather alongside the many early British
who whipped up Yorkshire 'pudding'. Of course, when "beef
meat" came to the "new world" it had to be named something
different. Ipso facto and ta-da!: "New York strip" (fnarr).

Salivatingly,
TomH

--
TomH [ antonomasia <at> gmail <dot>com ]
  #134 (permalink)   Report Post  
Jeremy D. Impson
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Kevin S. Wilson wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:00:38 +0000 (UTC), (Glitter
> Ninja) wrote:
>
>> Goomba38 > writes:
>>
>>> No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
>>> ravioli, macaroni...)
>>> It grates on the ear.

>>
>> OK, I'll do whatever you say.

>
> Not so fast. Goomba (if that is his real name) would be correct except
> for one troublesome fact: linguini, ravioli, and macaroni all
> originated in Italy, while spaghetti noodles is an Americanized type of
> Italian pasta that has always been referred to as "spaghetti noodles."
> The development of spaghetti noodles is similar to that of chow mein, a
> "Chinese" dish that originated in San Francisco, California.


Also, we are writing in American English, not Italian. (Well, Goomba
might be speaking some other bastar^Wvariation of English.) To some
"spaghetti" is short of "spaghetti dinner", so to speak of "spaghetti" is
to speak of a particular preparation of spaghetti noodles, marinara sauce,
and delicious garlic bread. So "spaghetti noodles" is a valid way to
specify an ingredient, as we don't have another name for them.

--Jeremy

[1] Similarly, in American "salsa" refers to a specific preparation of
fruits, vegetables, and seasonings. In Spanish, it just means "sauce".
My point, and I do have one, is that when we borrow a word from another
language, we don't necessarily borrow the meaning.

--

Jeremy Impson
jdimpson can be contacted at acm dot org
http://impson.tzo.com/~jdimpson
  #135 (permalink)   Report Post  
Damsel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

JimLane > said:

> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> > On Wed 29 Jun 2005 11:09:10p, Damsel wrote in rec.food.cooking:
> >
> >>JimLane > said:
> >>
> >>>Slam dunk. Italian pasta DOES exist in four-foot lengths. $1.99 17.6 oz.
> >>
> >>Told ya!
> >>
> >>I'd love to find some of that again. You can feed a family of five on 15
> >>strands of the stuff. LOL!

> >
> > But at a dollar a strand, it's not really a bargain. :-)

>
> What? Now I gotta go back and count strands? Never any rest.


You mean <gulp> you didn't buy a package???

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon


  #136 (permalink)   Report Post  
Wayne Boatwright
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu 30 Jun 2005 12:14:15p, Damsel wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> JimLane > said:
>
>> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>> > On Wed 29 Jun 2005 11:09:10p, Damsel wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>> >
>> >>JimLane > said:
>> >>
>> >>>Slam dunk. Italian pasta DOES exist in four-foot lengths. $1.99 17.6
>> >>>oz.
>> >>
>> >>Told ya!
>> >>
>> >>I'd love to find some of that again. You can feed a family of five
>> >>on 15 strands of the stuff. LOL!
>> >
>> > But at a dollar a strand, it's not really a bargain. :-)

>>
>> What? Now I gotta go back and count strands? Never any rest.

>
> You mean <gulp> you didn't buy a package???
>
> Carol
>


$4.99 for a 5 strand package? Dinner party? You each get half a strand
and lotsa sauce.

--
Wayne Boatwright *ż*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974


---
avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.
Virus Database (VPS): 0526-3, 06/30/2005
Tested on: 6/30/2005 12:19:22 PM
avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2005 ALWIL Software.
http://www.avast.com



  #137 (permalink)   Report Post  
JimLane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Damsel wrote:
> JimLane > said:
>
>
>>Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>>
>>>On Wed 29 Jun 2005 11:09:10p, Damsel wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>>
>>>
>>>>JimLane > said:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Slam dunk. Italian pasta DOES exist in four-foot lengths. $1.99 17.6 oz.
>>>>
>>>>Told ya!
>>>>
>>>>I'd love to find some of that again. You can feed a family of five on 15
>>>>strands of the stuff. LOL!
>>>
>>>But at a dollar a strand, it's not really a bargain. :-)

>>
>>What? Now I gotta go back and count strands? Never any rest.

>
>
> You mean <gulp> you didn't buy a package???
>
> Carol
>


I've seen this long pasta elsewhere in San Diego - perhaps in Little
Italy, so its no big deal. I forgot to mention, the pasta has a
"rustic" appearance compared to most pastas, more home madeish.


jim
  #138 (permalink)   Report Post  
JimLane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

>
> $4.99 for a 5 strand package? Dinner party? You each get half a strand
> and lotsa sauce.
>


Well, Wayne, if the pasta in your neighborhood weighs in at 17.6 ounces
for a four-foot strand, I'd switch my diet and not worry about the
price. ;->


jim
  #139 (permalink)   Report Post  
Ophelia
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Wayne Boatwright" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu 30 Jun 2005 12:14:15p, Damsel wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>> JimLane > said:
>>
>>> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>>> > On Wed 29 Jun 2005 11:09:10p, Damsel wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>>> >
>>> >>JimLane > said:
>>> >>
>>> >>>Slam dunk. Italian pasta DOES exist in four-foot lengths. $1.99
>>> >>>17.6
>>> >>>oz.
>>> >>
>>> >>Told ya!
>>> >>
>>> >>I'd love to find some of that again. You can feed a family of
>>> >>five
>>> >>on 15 strands of the stuff. LOL!
>>> >
>>> > But at a dollar a strand, it's not really a bargain. :-)
>>>
>>> What? Now I gotta go back and count strands? Never any rest.

>>
>> You mean <gulp> you didn't buy a package???
>>
>> Carol
>>

>
> $4.99 for a 5 strand package? Dinner party? You each get half a
> strand
> and lotsa sauce.


LOL


  #140 (permalink)   Report Post  
JimLane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jeremy D. Impson wrote:
So "spaghetti noodles" is a valid
> way to specify an ingredient, as we don't have another name for them.


However, it is redundant, but if you need that to understand what
spaghetti is, that's a personal problem.

Spaghetti is the noodle, how you chose to dress it or not, is another
matter.

Spaghetti carbonara- spaghetti with carbonara sauce, not spaghetti
noodles with carbonara.

Same situation for panini sandwiches, a redundancy.


jim


  #141 (permalink)   Report Post  
JimLane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> On Thu 30 Jun 2005 08:32:02a, Kate Connally wrote in rec.food.cooking:
>
>
>>Goomba38 wrote:
>>
>>>No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
>>>ravioli, macaroni...) It grates on the ear. Same as when people add an
>>>"s" to ravioli (which is already plural) so the "s" is inappropriate.
>>>Rant Over.
>>>Carry On

>>
>>Well, sometimes, if you're trying to differentiate
>>between the dish (spaghetti noodles topped with
>>sauce) and the actual noodle (sans sauce) it might
>>be okay to say "spaghetti noodles" so that people
>>don't think you're referring to the dish. Although
>>you could just say "noodles" and that would do in
>>many cases but I can see where there might be a case
>>where you really need to say "spaghetti noodles". :-)
>>
>>Kate
>>

>
>
> But if you just say "noodles" that could mean damn near anything. All
> kinds of noodles come to mind, none of them at all like spaghetti.
>



I'm thinking we've noodled this to death. Or is there some more in your
noodle on noodles? ;->


jim
  #142 (permalink)   Report Post  
JimLane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

JimLane wrote:


In following up, these four-foot lengths are pikers compared to the
length of the noodles when they are "swirled." I suspect that the length
of the capalini, linguini, whatever is much, much longer.

It is far easier to handle though, being about the size of a smallish,
frozen chicken pie.


jim
  #143 (permalink)   Report Post  
Otto Bahn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"JimLane" > wrote

> So "spaghetti noodles" is a valid
> > way to specify an ingredient, as we don't have another name for them.

>
> However, it is redundant, but if you need that to understand what
> spaghetti is, that's a personal problem.
>
> Spaghetti is the noodle, how you chose to dress it or not, is another
> matter.


Oh, right, so when an American kid says "We're having
spaghetti for lunch", he means a big heaping plate of
nothing but plain noodles -- no sauce, no cheese, and
no beef hamburger. Right.

When I order spaghetti at Lorena's Italian Restaurant
(which I do about once a week), I don't have to tell
them I'd also like the above ingredients put on it.

--oTTo--



  #145 (permalink)   Report Post  
Matthew L. Martin
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jeremy D. Impson wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005, Kevin S. Wilson wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:00:38 +0000 (UTC), (Glitter
>> Ninja) wrote:
>>
>>> Goomba38 > writes:
>>>
>>>> No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
>>>> ravioli, macaroni...)
>>>> It grates on the ear.
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, I'll do whatever you say.

>>
>>
>> Not so fast. Goomba (if that is his real name) would be correct except
>> for one troublesome fact: linguini, ravioli, and macaroni all
>> originated in Italy, while spaghetti noodles is an Americanized type
>> of Italian pasta that has always been referred to as "spaghetti
>> noodles." The development of spaghetti noodles is similar to that of
>> chow mein, a "Chinese" dish that originated in San Francisco, California.

>
>
> Also, we are writing in American English, not Italian. (Well, Goomba
> might be speaking some other bastar^Wvariation of English.) To some
> "spaghetti" is short of "spaghetti dinner", so to speak of "spaghetti"
> is to speak of a particular preparation of spaghetti noodles, marinara
> sauce, and delicious garlic bread. So "spaghetti noodles" is a valid
> way to specify an ingredient, as we don't have another name for them.
>
> --Jeremy
>
> [1] Similarly, in American "salsa" refers to a specific preparation of
> fruits, vegetables, and seasonings. In Spanish, it just means "sauce".
> My point, and I do have one, is that when we borrow a word from another
> language, we don't necessarily borrow the meaning.
>


Is there any proof that English borrows words?? I mean, have we ever
given one back? Do we pay for a replacement if we break one? How does
this work?

--
Matthew

I'm a contractor. If you want an opinion, I'll sell you one.
Which one do you want?


  #146 (permalink)   Report Post  
nadiarosina
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Wind the spaghetti around your chopsticks, of course. Noodles came from
China originally.
Nadia
Damsel wrote:
> When I was a kid, we got boxes of spaghetti that were about 4 inches square
> on the ends, and around 3 feet long. The pasta inside was folded in half,
> so you were talking strands at least 5-1/2 feet long. One or two were all
> that a fork could hold.
>
> We twirled the cooked pasta by holding the tines of our forks against a
> soup spoon and twirling.
>
> I die inside, just a little, when I see someone chop their spaghetti into
> little pieces. Never could get the hang of twirling against the plate.
>
> How do *you* get 'sketti from the plate to your mouth?
>
> Carol
>
> --
> Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon


  #147 (permalink)   Report Post  
Damsel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Kevin S. Wilson > said:

> Not so fast. Goomba (if that is his real name)


Hey, Goomba! When was the sex change operation?

> would be correct except
> for one troublesome fact: linguini, ravioli, and macaroni all
> originated in Italy, while spaghetti noodles is an Americanized type
> of Italian pasta that has always been referred to as "spaghetti
> noodles."


Spaghetti has never been referred to as "spaghetti noodles" in this
household, or any other of which I've been a part.

In fact, I view (correctly or incorrectly) pasta and noodles as being two
separate things.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon
  #148 (permalink)   Report Post  
A.C.
 
Posts: n/a
Default


Otto Bahn wrote:


> Oh, right, so when an American kid says "We're having
> spaghetti for lunch", he means a big heaping plate of
> nothing but plain noodles -- no sauce, no cheese, and
> no beef hamburger. Right.
>
> When I order spaghetti at Lorena's Italian Restaurant
> (which I do about once a week), I don't have to tell
> them I'd also like the above ingredients put on it.


that's because we americans have *******ized the meaning of 'spaghetti' into
something that would better be described as 'spaghetti bolognese' as opposed to
spaghetti carbonara or spaghetti marinara or spaghetti calabrese or any of the
other many recipes. spaghetti IS the noodle. and there are plenty of things to
do with it that do not involve a tomato. mmmm even spaghetti, garlic, mushrooms,
olive oil and parmesan cheese and fresh cracked black pepper kicks ass bit i
wouldn't call it 'spaghetti'


  #149 (permalink)   Report Post  
Glitter Ninja
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Jeremy D. Impson" > writes:

>Also, we are writing in American English, not Italian. (Well, Goomba
>might be speaking some other bastar^Wvariation of English.) To some
>"spaghetti" is short of "spaghetti dinner"


Mmmm. Kraft Dinner.

Stacia

  #150 (permalink)   Report Post  
TomH
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 16:44:04 -0400, "Matthew L. Martin"
> wrote:

>> "Spaghetti noodles" sounds redundant to me, if not
>> superfluous. Like "steak meat" or "salmon fish" or
>> "automobile car". I don't know that it grates on the ear,
>> so much; I'll leave that to the parmesan.

>
>Tuna fish sandwich?


No thanks, I just ate dinn.... I mean, Yes, exactly.

Cheerios cereal? (Like anything else is called 'cheerios'.)


--
TomH [ antonomasia <at> gmail <dot>com ]


  #151 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob (this one)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Kevin S. Wilson wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:00:38 +0000 (UTC), (Glitter
> Ninja) wrote:
>
>>Goomba38 > writes:
>>
>>>No need to say "spaghetti noodles" instead of just spaghetti (linguini,
>>>ravioli, macaroni...)
>>>It grates on the ear.

>>
>> OK, I'll do whatever you say.

>
> Not so fast. Goomba (if that is his real name) would be correct except
> for one troublesome fact: linguini, ravioli, and macaroni all
> originated in Italy, while spaghetti noodles is an Americanized type
> of Italian pasta that has always been referred to as "spaghetti
> noodles." The development of spaghetti noodles is similar to that of
> chow mein, a "Chinese" dish that originated in San Francisco,
> California.


This is dead, dead wrong. Spago means string. Spaghetti means little
strings (spaghetto in singular). Spaghettini means very little strings.
As Italian as can be. Spaghetti alla chitarra (key-tar-ra)has been a
staple of Italian cuisine for centuries. It literally means spaghetti
made on a guitar and was originally made by putting many thin wires very
close to each other on a wooden frame reminiscent of a guitar, but much,
much closer together, and pushing flat sheets of pasta dough against
them, cutting the dough onto long, narrow strands. Later, but still
centuries back, Italians made spaghetti as we do today, extruded through
dies.

No one says spaghetti noodles who knows anything about pasta. Noodles is
an adaptation of the German words nudel and nudeln which are essentially
the equivalent words for pasta. Related to knödel (the K is pronounced)
which is a sort of like an Italian gnoccho (note spelling of singular).
In Germany, they say spaghetti, ravioli and lasagne (lasagna singular).
And they say nudeln. A medium-width nudel I had there was called
bandenudeln or, loosely, ribbon noodle. The Italian would be either
tagliatelle (tahl-ya-tel-leh) (cut pasta - tagliare [tahl-yar-eh] is to
cut) or fettuce (feh-too-cheh - ribbon) or fettucine (small or narrow
ribbon) ribbon pasta.

Spaghetti is very Italian.

Pastorio
  #152 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob (this one)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

sf wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:18:29 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>> But it's a funny thing. Because there's a small hole that runs through
>> the middle of each strand, you can't suck them up like you can
>> spaghetti. It's like trying to suck a drinking straw into your mouth. So
>> naturally, that's what we did as kids while the grownups acted like they
>> didn't notice.
>>

> Does the "ini" part of bucatini refer to the hole?


buco = hole
-tini (suffix) = small

> They don't twirl
> well either... although I have a package in the cupboard as we speak,
> I rarely use it because I'm usually at a loss about what to do with it
> too. It's just plain hard to eat w/o cutting. LOL


I think it's a parallel to Norwegian lutefisk. They invented it as a
practical joke for foreigners and the slow of wit. Must be why she
served them to us.

>> My northern Italian grandmother served both semolina and whole wheat
>> bucatini with very thick sauces. Usually tomato-based with strong flavor
>> elements (sausage, salty ham, pecorino cheese, etc.), but sometimes a
>> heavy cream sauce (occasionally including fish or seafood).

>
> Did she serve the bucatini whole? Can you give us the basic recipe
> (or at least a grandma style one) for her cream sauce?


Easy enough. A little butter to wet the bottom of a skillet, maybe two
tablespoons on medium heat. Two very smashed and minced cloves of garlic
dropped into the butter and sauteed for maybe two minutes. A good pinch
of "dark salt" (what she called sea salt - they were from near Venice);
one oil-packed, roasted, red pepper minced coarsely; three strips of
bacon or pancetta, finely chopped. About a pint of cream, brought to a
hard boil and reduced to about half - until it coated a spoon. Then,
maybe 30 seconds before serving, a handful of finely minced raw shrimp -
maybe 4 or 5 ounces. Drain pasta (reserving about 1/2 cup of the cooking
water and dump into a bowl. Pour water over and then cream sauce. Toss
and serve. If shrimp or fish, no parmesan. If chicken, ham or any other
meat, a generous grating of parmesan cheese.

This works for virtually any pasta. In later years, I've made it with
roasted garlic puree, roasted pepper puree and a hell of a lot more
shrimp. Occasionally get wild and crazy and drop in crumbled gorgonzola.
Made it a few times with chopped smoked salmon and it's wonderful. And -
horror - I put parmesan on it, seafood or not.

Pastorio
  #153 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob (this one)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

sf wrote:
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 21:08:27 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
>
>>
>> It's interesting. You don't see Italians use the spoon technique until
>> you get towards the south. Northerners pull a few strands out of the
>> pile and twirl them on the plate onto the fork. You'll see more
>> Neapolitans and Sicilians using spoons. Different understanding of
>> what's "proper." One set of my grandparents were northerners; the other
>> Sicilian. Meals were exhausting.
>>

> I imagine that the proper way to speak "Italian" was also discussed at
> length!


Actually, almost nothing was discussed directly.

> For instance, I read that the dialect spoken in Alghero (a
> town in/on Sardinia) is actually a derivative of Catalan - which is a
> language that is spoken in Spain (in the region around Barcelona).


Italy wasn't a single country until the mid-1800's. Until then it was a
whole bunch of emotional, arm-waving city-states with great music, art,
architecture and food. My grandparents couldn't speak to each other. Two
were from near Venice and the alps. Two were Sicilian. I translated,
even as a fairly young kid. I had to learn the bad words from my
cousins; the adults were careful to offer insults only in dignified
language.

The "proper" way to speak Italian is however the person who raises the
subject speaks. Everybody knows that. It's that old, "Of course, it's
correct. *I'm* doing it" thing...

Pastorio
  #154 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob (this one)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

nadiarosina wrote:

> Wind the spaghetti around your chopsticks, of course. Noodles came from
> China originally.
> Nadia


Sorry. No. That old story is simply not true.

Here's way more than most people want to know about pasta history.
<http://www.cliffordawright.com/history/macaroni.html>

Pastorio

> Damsel wrote:
>
>>When I was a kid, we got boxes of spaghetti that were about 4 inches square
>>on the ends, and around 3 feet long. The pasta inside was folded in half,
>>so you were talking strands at least 5-1/2 feet long. One or two were all
>>that a fork could hold.
>>
>>We twirled the cooked pasta by holding the tines of our forks against a
>>soup spoon and twirling.
>>
>>I die inside, just a little, when I see someone chop their spaghetti into
>>little pieces. Never could get the hang of twirling against the plate.
>>
>>How do *you* get 'sketti from the plate to your mouth?
>>
>>Carol
>>
>>--
>>Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

>
>

  #155 (permalink)   Report Post  
JimLane
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Otto Bahn wrote:
> "JimLane" > wrote
>
>
>>So "spaghetti noodles" is a valid
>>
>>>way to specify an ingredient, as we don't have another name for them.

>>
>>However, it is redundant, but if you need that to understand what
>>spaghetti is, that's a personal problem.
>>
>>Spaghetti is the noodle, how you chose to dress it or not, is another
>>matter.

>
>
> Oh, right, so when an American kid says "We're having
> spaghetti for lunch", he means a big heaping plate of
> nothing but plain noodles -- no sauce, no cheese, and
> no beef hamburger. Right.
>
> When I order spaghetti at Lorena's Italian Restaurant
> (which I do about once a week), I don't have to tell
> them I'd also like the above ingredients put on it.
>
> --oTTo--
>
>
>


I was going to make a quip about us ignorant 'mericans but decided it
would go over your head. Common usage and correct usage are not
necessarily the same thing.


jim


  #156 (permalink)   Report Post  
-L.
 
Posts: n/a
Default



Bob wrote:
> -L wrote:
>
> > A Greek friend of mine made an awesome dish with it once - maybe it
> > wasn't bucatini but the Greek equivalent. I'm not sure what the dish
> > was - it had a veal/beef sauce which contained (among othe rthings)
> > cinnamon, and was topped with a fluffy white-sauce-like cheesish layer.
> > It was great!

>
> Maybe you're talking about pastitsio? Here's a recipe chosen at random from
> Google:


Yes, I think that's it! Thanks!

-L.

  #157 (permalink)   Report Post  
Damsel
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"Bob (this one)" > said:

> sf wrote:
> > On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 02:18:29 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
> >
> >> But it's a funny thing. Because there's a small hole that runs through
> >> the middle of each strand, you can't suck them up like you can
> >> spaghetti. It's like trying to suck a drinking straw into your mouth. So
> >> naturally, that's what we did as kids while the grownups acted like they
> >> didn't notice.
> >>

> > Does the "ini" part of bucatini refer to the hole?

>
> buco = hole
> -tini (suffix) = small


Is this the stuff they make Beef-a-Roni with? I really hate that stuff,
but I love the pasta that's in it.

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon
  #158 (permalink)   Report Post  
Otto Bahn
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"A.C." > wrote in message ...
>
> Otto Bahn wrote:
>
>
> > Oh, right, so when an American kid says "We're having
> > spaghetti for lunch", he means a big heaping plate of
> > nothing but plain noodles -- no sauce, no cheese, and
> > no beef hamburger. Right.
> >
> > When I order spaghetti at Lorena's Italian Restaurant
> > (which I do about once a week), I don't have to tell
> > them I'd also like the above ingredients put on it.

>
> that's because we americans have *******ized the meaning of 'spaghetti' into
> something


Exactly my point.

> that would better be described as 'spaghetti bolognese'


That's just a value judgement better left unsaid.

> as opposed to
> spaghetti carbonara or spaghetti marinara or spaghetti calabrese or any of the


Those modifiers still make sense in America to distinguish
them from normal spaghetti.

> other many recipes. spaghetti IS the noodle. and there are plenty of things to
> do with it that do not involve a tomato. mmmm even spaghetti, garlic, mushrooms,
> olive oil and parmesan cheese and fresh cracked black pepper kicks ass bit i
> wouldn't call it 'spaghetti'


Do you pronounce it "Italy" or "Italia" or "China"?

--oTTo--


  #159 (permalink)   Report Post  
Otto Bahn
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"JimLane" > wrote in message ...

> >>So "spaghetti noodles" is a valid
> >>
> >>>way to specify an ingredient, as we don't have another name for them.
> >>
> >>However, it is redundant, but if you need that to understand what
> >>spaghetti is, that's a personal problem.
> >>
> >>Spaghetti is the noodle, how you chose to dress it or not, is another
> >>matter.

> >
> >
> > Oh, right, so when an American kid says "We're having
> > spaghetti for lunch", he means a big heaping plate of
> > nothing but plain noodles -- no sauce, no cheese, and
> > no beef hamburger. Right.
> >
> > When I order spaghetti at Lorena's Italian Restaurant
> > (which I do about once a week), I don't have to tell
> > them I'd also like the above ingredients put on it.

>
> I was going to make a quip about us ignorant 'mericans but decided it
> would go over your head. Common usage and correct usage are not
> necessarily the same thing.


Language evolves, unlike people who don't reproduce.

--oTTo--


  #160 (permalink)   Report Post  
Bob (this one)
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Otto Bahn wrote:
> "A.C." > wrote in message ...
>
>>Otto Bahn wrote:
>>
>>>Oh, right, so when an American kid says "We're having
>>>spaghetti for lunch", he means a big heaping plate of
>>>nothing but plain noodles -- no sauce, no cheese, and
>>>no beef hamburger. Right.
>>>
>>>When I order spaghetti at Lorena's Italian Restaurant
>>>(which I do about once a week), I don't have to tell
>>>them I'd also like the above ingredients put on it.

>>
>>that's because we americans have *******ized the meaning of 'spaghetti' into
>>something

>
> Exactly my point.
>
>>that would better be described as 'spaghetti bolognese'

>
> That's just a value judgement better left unsaid.
>
>>as opposed to
>>spaghetti carbonara or spaghetti marinara or spaghetti calabrese or any of the

>
> Those modifiers still make sense in America to distinguish
> them from normal spaghetti.
>
>>other many recipes. spaghetti IS the noodle. and there are plenty of things to
>>do with it that do not involve a tomato. mmmm even spaghetti, garlic, mushrooms,
>>olive oil and parmesan cheese and fresh cracked black pepper kicks ass bit i
>>wouldn't call it 'spaghetti'

>
> Do you pronounce it "Italy" or "Italia" or "China"?


Amazing how much misinformation can be crammed into so few words. And
how enormously scant the understanding is. Truly an outstanding job.

No, seriously...

Pastorio
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spaghetti aglio e olio (garlic and oil spaghetti) ViLco General Cooking 34 21-03-2012 04:58 PM
Spaghetti Pie weaver Recipes 0 23-05-2008 05:48 PM
REC: Spaghetti - Spaghetti Bravissimo Melba's Jammin' General Cooking 2 02-03-2004 11:18 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:32 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2025 FoodBanter.com.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about Food and drink"