Dimitri wrote:
> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>sf wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 27 Jun 2005 19:09:05 -0500, Damsel wrote:
>>>
>>>>Actually, it does say that on the American Dry Bean Board website:
>>>>http://www.americanbean.org/BeanBasics/Home.htm#Cooking
>>>>"Add salt only after beans are cooked to tender. If added before, salt may
>>>>cause bean skins to become impermeable, halting the tenderizing process. "
>>>>
>>>>I just report this stuff, I don't write it.
>>>
>>>Salting after cooking is common practice.
>>
>>Its *a* common practice.
>>
>>And it's also a common practice to put a salty ham hock in with the beans
>>right at the beginning.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> IIRC most baked bean recipes

Who said anything about baked beans? I live in the south where beans are
simmered more than cooking any other way. Hunks of extremely salty
country ham go into bean dishes from the (as we say in our quaint, local
patois) git-go.

> do not call for ham hocks they call for salt pork
> or bacon.

The point is that there's salt being introduce in the cooking process.
Just like it says above not to.

> Ham Hocks are generally associated with black eyed peas and lima beans which are
> naturally a more tender bean. The fat used in Pinto Bean recipes is generally
> lard in the refrying process.

Come to Virginia. New stuff for you. If you like beans, there are
several dishes made out here in the country you'll enjoy. "Soup beans"
and "brown beans" being a couple...

Pastorio

Pastorio

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 14:48:08 -0400, A.C. wrote:
>
>> i've done pretty extensive testing on this issue using pinto beans and
>> i've
>> found that if you salt the beans before cooking you get beans seasoned
>> through
>> while the salted after cooking beans are not seasoned through. i have
>> not
>> encountered hardening of the bean at all
>>
> What kind of bean are we talking about now?

Sure looks like pinto beans to me.

Hal Laurent
Baltimore

Doug Kanter wrote:

> Peter, I am not kidding. Various neighbors looked at it and said "WTF???" If
> it happens again, I've got a digital camera now, and I'll post pictures. I'm
> planting the exact same seed variety (Burpee Kentucky Blue Pole Beans).
> We'll see.


If it doesn't happen again, will you conclude that the first beans sent
out feelers in one direction due to accidents of wind and sun direction,
or will you conclude that the first pack of seeds were sentient while
the others weren't, or might it be that all the seeds were sentient, but
the second set of beans were just stupid? Make sure you take digital
pictures of ALL bean plants, not just the ones making the leap towards
the higher pole.


Someone else can supply the right word for this, but people who believe
in the paranormal have a way of explaining amazing things by counting
their hits while disregarding their misses. So if a "psychic" can
accurately read an audience member's mind once and fails miserably
another 30 times, the folks who want to believe will say that he really
is psychic and attribute the failures to all sorts of excuses. The
people who don't believe will notice that making good on a guess once
out of 30 times proves only that someone made a good guess once out of
30 times.


--Lia

zxcvbob wrote:
>
> Doug Kanter wrote:
> > "Arri London" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>I seem to be completely unable to cook beans.
> >>>
> >>>What usually happens is I start with some pinto beans. I soak them
> >>>overnight in a pot of water, then put them in a pan full of water and
> >>>let them simmer 4-5 hours. They're always still tough, rather than
> >>>soft, and the water remains watery rather than thick and hearty.
> >>>
> >>>What am I doing wrong? Do I have to put these things in a pressure
> >>>cooker for a week?
> >>
> >>Buy the beans somewhere that has a high turnover. The beans should be
> >>slightly softened after soaking. Rinse them and put them in fresh water
> >>to cook. How much above sea level are you? Do you bring the beans to a
> >>boil first before simmering?
> >>
> >>If all else fails, put a pinch of baking soda into the soaking water.
> >>Rinse the beans and cook in fresh water.
> >
> >
> > What's with the sea level question?
> >
> >
>
> If you're too high above sea level, water boils at a lower temperature
> and it can take *forever* to cook beans without a pressure cooker.
>
> Bob

Yes exactly. We are at about 6000 feet so we can still cook beans
without a pressure cooker. But many people around here use one for the
beans anyway. Higher up a pressure cooker does save hours.

sf > said:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:04:56 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
>
> > And it's also a common practice to put a salty ham hock in with the
> > beans right at the beginning.
> >
> It is? Yuck. No wonder people can't cook their beans properly!

Yuck? No! Yummmm!

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:19:33 -0600, Arri London >
wrote:


>Yes exactly. We are at about 6000 feet so we can still cook beans
>without a pressure cooker. But many people around here use one for the
>beans anyway. Higher up a pressure cooker does save hours.

I am relearning how to cook at a higher altitude myself. I am
figuring that I have to give somethings a bit of extra time. Haven't
tried to cook beans yet, but am planning on it soon.

I forget what the rule is about baking.. Is the rule to crank up the
oven another 25 degrees?

Christine

Christine Dabney wrote:

> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:19:33 -0600, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
> >Yes exactly. We are at about 6000 feet so we can still cook beans
> >without a pressure cooker. But many people around here use one for the
> >beans anyway. Higher up a pressure cooker does save hours.
>
> I am relearning how to cook at a higher altitude myself. I am
> figuring that I have to give somethings a bit of extra time. Haven't
> tried to cook beans yet, but am planning on it soon.
>
> I forget what the rule is about baking.. Is the rule to crank up the
> oven another 25 degrees?
>
> Christine

This is a clipping off my fridge (yellowed, cracked and missing a spot), an
article in the El Paso Times:
-Increase oven temps for cakes & breads by 25 deg. Use high altitude
directions on boxed mixes.
-Reduce baking powder and/or soda by 1/8 teaspoon for ea Teaspoon called
for in recipe. Decrease sugar by one Tablespoon for each cup called for.
-Angel food cakes and other products that use air as leavening need little
adjustment in ingredients. Avoid overbeating egg whites.
-(candy instructions deleted due to bite out of clipping).
-A lower temperature is required for deep-fat frying. Decrease by 2 degrees
for each 1,000 feet of elevation.
HTH.
Edrena at 4,000'

On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 19:11:42 -0500, Damsel wrote:

> sf > said:
>
> > On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 02:04:56 -0400, Bob (this one) wrote:
> >
> > > And it's also a common practice to put a salty ham hock in with the
> > > beans right at the beginning.
> > >
> > It is? Yuck. No wonder people can't cook their beans properly!
>
> Yuck? No! Yummmm!
>
It depends on the bean... you can add meat to some immediately (like
mung or split pea) because they cook quickly - others take longer too
cook, so you should add the meat later.

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> Peter, I am not kidding. Various neighbors looked at it and said "WTF???"
>> If it happens again, I've got a digital camera now, and I'll post
>> pictures. I'm planting the exact same seed variety (Burpee Kentucky Blue
>> Pole Beans). We'll see.
>
>
> If it doesn't happen again, will you conclude that the first beans sent
> out feelers in one direction due to accidents of wind and sun direction,
> or will you conclude that the first pack of seeds were sentient while the
> others weren't, or might it be that all the seeds were sentient, but the
> second set of beans were just stupid? Make sure you take digital pictures
> of ALL bean plants, not just the ones making the leap towards the higher
> pole.

Only your first sentence is reasonable (sun, wind). The remainder...I'll
simply not comment, to be polite. It's too early to recommend counseling.


> Someone else can supply the right word for this, but people who believe in
> the paranormal have a way of explaining amazing things by counting their
> hits while disregarding their misses. So if a "psychic" can accurately
> read an audience member's mind once and fails miserably another 30 times,
> the folks who want to believe will say that he really is psychic and
> attribute the failures to all sorts of excuses. The people who don't
> believe will notice that making good on a guess once out of 30 times
> proves only that someone made a good guess once out of 30 times.

Paranormal? How do you explain the fact that a climber's tendrils are
straight until they find something to cling to, and then they change shape
within a matter of hours, or sometimes minutes? If you categorize this as
some sort of new age crap, then you must have quite a mental wrestling match
with the way a venus flytrap works. :-)

Peter "Always Wrong" Aitken wrote:
> "Doug Kante" wrote:
> > "C. James Strutz" wrote:
> >
> >> You have accidentally hit on why some people don't eat animal products -
> >> because animals are sentient beings and plants are not.
> >
> > Don't be so sure. Explain the following:
> >
> > Last time I planted pole beans, the setup involved a post eight feet high.
> > Three ropes were attached to the top, and they led down at an angle to
> > three stakes on the ground. At the bottom of each rope, seeds were
> > planted.
> >
> > Ten feet away, at the other corner of the garden, there was another
> > identical post.
> >
> > When the beans climbed to the top of the ropes and could go no further,
> > they began "probing" horizontally, but not just in any direction. They
> > headed toward the other post ten feet away, and ONLY in that direction.
> > When the stems reached a certain length, they began to sag a bit, but
> > eventually they joined, and formed a sort of bridge between the two posts.
> >
> > If there'd only been one post in the garden, you could theorize that the
> > direction of growth was random, or influenced by sun or wind, or just pure
> > chance. But, the plants on each post headed toward the other post.
> >
> > Sentient, or what? I've repeated the same planting arrangement this year.
> > I'll post the results in early August.
> >
>
> I wish I thought you were trying to be funny, but I am afraid you are
> serious. Please tell me I am wrong.

But you are always wrong... "Wrong" is your middle name... Peter
"Always Wrong" Aitken. Don't you ever read anything, other than
betting scratch sheets... well, you lose.

Search <"circumnutation"> [Charles Darwin]... and discover just how
"Always Wrong" you really are. Any migrant grape picker should be able
to explain just how "Always Wrong" you are.

http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/plant...s/vines/1.html

Sheldon

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
> > Peter, I am not kidding. Various neighbors looked at it and said "WTF???" If
> > it happens again, I've got a digital camera now, and I'll post pictures. I'm
> > planting the exact same seed variety (Burpee Kentucky Blue Pole Beans).
> > We'll see.
>
>
> If it doesn't happen again, will you conclude that the first beans sent
> out feelers in one direction due to accidents of wind and sun direction,
> or will you conclude that the first pack of seeds were sentient while
> the others weren't, or might it be that all the seeds were sentient, but
> the second set of beans were just stupid? Make sure you take digital
> pictures of ALL bean plants, not just the ones making the leap towards
> the higher pole.

This has been done, time elapse cinematography of vining plants has
have been studied extensively by many of the world's most prominent
Botanists

> Someone else can supply the right word for this,

The word is CIRCUMNUTATION.

> but people who believe
> in the paranormal have a way of explaining amazing things by counting
> their hits while disregarding their misses. So if a "psychic" can
> accurately read an audience member's mind once and fails miserably
> another 30 times, the folks who want to believe will say that he really
> is psychic and attribute the failures to all sorts of excuses. The
> people who don't believe will notice that making good on a guess once
> out of 30 times proves only that someone made a good guess once out of
> 30 times.

You are highly UNeducated.

Sheldon

On 27 Jun 2005 11:10:33 -0700, wrote:

>I seem to be completely unable to cook beans.
>
>What usually happens is I start with some pinto beans. I soak them
>overnight in a pot of water, then put them in a pan full of water and
>let them simmer 4-5 hours. They're always still tough, rather than
>soft, and the water remains watery rather than thick and hearty.
>
>What am I doing wrong? Do I have to put these things in a pressure
>cooker for a week?

How old are your beans? Old beans won't ever get tender, no matter how much
you cook them.

--
Siobhan Perricone
"You know, I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair; then I
thought, 'Wouldn't it be much worse if life *were* fair, and all the
terrible things that happened to us come because we actually deserved
them?' So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and
unfairness of the universe."
- Marcus, Babylon 5, "A Late Delivery from Avalon"

Siobhan Perricone wrote:
> On 27 Jun 2005 11:10:33 -0700, wrote:
>
> >I seem to be completely unable to cook beans.
> >
> >What usually happens is I start with some pinto beans. I soak them
> >overnight in a pot of water, then put them in a pan full of water and
> >let them simmer 4-5 hours. They're always still tough, rather than
> >soft, and the water remains watery rather than thick and hearty.
> >
> >What am I doing wrong? Do I have to put these things in a pressure
> >cooker for a week?
>
> How old are your beans? Old beans won't ever get tender, no matter how much
> you cook them.

Absolutely untrue.

Age of dried beans has very little effect on their cookability,
probably the least determining factor... and "old" is so unspecific as
to be so meaningless this would be so hysterically laughable were you
not so serious.

Sheldon

Sheldon wrote:
>
> Peter "Always Wrong" Aitken wrote:
>
>>"Doug Kante" wrote:
>>
>>>"C. James Strutz" wrote:
>>>
>>>>You have accidentally hit on why some people don't eat animal products -
>>>>because animals are sentient beings and plants are not.
>>>
>>>Don't be so sure. Explain the following:
>>>
>>>Last time I planted pole beans, the setup involved a post eight feet high.
>>>Three ropes were attached to the top, and they led down at an angle to
>>>three stakes on the ground. At the bottom of each rope, seeds were
>>>planted.
>>>
>>>Ten feet away, at the other corner of the garden, there was another
>>>identical post.
>>>
>>>When the beans climbed to the top of the ropes and could go no further,
>>>they began "probing" horizontally, but not just in any direction. They
>>>headed toward the other post ten feet away, and ONLY in that direction.
>>>When the stems reached a certain length, they began to sag a bit, but
>>>eventually they joined, and formed a sort of bridge between the two posts.
>>>
>>>If there'd only been one post in the garden, you could theorize that the
>>>direction of growth was random, or influenced by sun or wind, or just pure
>>>chance. But, the plants on each post headed toward the other post.
>>>
>>>Sentient, or what? I've repeated the same planting arrangement this year.
>>>I'll post the results in early August.
>>>
>>
>>I wish I thought you were trying to be funny, but I am afraid you are
>>serious. Please tell me I am wrong.
>
>
> Search <"circumnutation"> [Charles Darwin]... and discover just how
> "Always Wrong" you really are. Any migrant grape picker should be able
> to explain just how "Always Wrong" you are.
>
> http://www.bbg.org/gar2/topics/plant...s/vines/1.html

Jayzus, you're such a windbag, all the more embarrassing when you're as
flat-out wrong as you are here...

Circumnutation has to do with the way vines seek surfaces to climb.
Nothing to do with vines growing towards each other. It's the descriptor
of the elliptical motion of twining plants.

From a good, basic site on the subject of vines.
<http://www.smgrowers.com/info/vine.asp>

Pastorio

Doug Kanter wrote:

> Only your first sentence is reasonable (sun, wind). The remainder...I'll
> simply not comment, to be polite. It's too early to recommend counseling.


Either you're not catching my over the top sarcasm, or I'm not catching
yours. Shall we call it a truce?


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> Only your first sentence is reasonable (sun, wind). The remainder...I'll
>> simply not comment, to be polite. It's too early to recommend counseling.
>
>
> Either you're not catching my over the top sarcasm, or I'm not catching
> yours. Shall we call it a truce?
>
>
> --Lia
>

I suppose we can.

By the way, last time this bean thing happened, there were 8-9 plants at
each post. ALL the plants (at each post) headed in the same direction. I
mention this in response to your suggestion to photograph ALL the plants.

Doug Kanter wrote:

> By the way, last time this bean thing happened, there were 8-9 plants at
> each post. ALL the plants (at each post) headed in the same direction. I
> mention this in response to your suggestion to photograph ALL the plants.


I meant all the plants in the neighborhood and the world under
controlled conditions.


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...
> Doug Kanter wrote:
>
>> By the way, last time this bean thing happened, there were 8-9 plants at
>> each post. ALL the plants (at each post) headed in the same direction. I
>> mention this in response to your suggestion to photograph ALL the plants.
>
>
> I meant all the plants in the neighborhood and the world under controlled
> conditions.
>
>
> --Lia
>

That's gonna take me a little longer.

Christine Dabney wrote:
>
> On Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:19:33 -0600, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
> >Yes exactly. We are at about 6000 feet so we can still cook beans
> >without a pressure cooker. But many people around here use one for the
> >beans anyway. Higher up a pressure cooker does save hours.
>
> I am relearning how to cook at a higher altitude myself. I am
> figuring that I have to give somethings a bit of extra time. Haven't
> tried to cook beans yet, but am planning on it soon.
>
> I forget what the rule is about baking.. Is the rule to crank up the
> oven another 25 degrees?
>
> Christine

Depends on the recipe. I don't bother for breads but some cakes need it.
Doesn't seem to matter for biscuits ie cookies.

On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:17:38 -0600, Arri London >
wrote:


>Depends on the recipe. I don't bother for breads but some cakes need it.
>Doesn't seem to matter for biscuits ie cookies.

How about pizza dough? I am trying out homemade pizza this
weekend...from the American Pie book, by Peter Reinhardt...

Christine

wrote:
>
> What am I doing wrong?

Gee, with all the fiber contained in beans they should be coming out
right and left.

Sheldon

Christine Dabney wrote:

> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:17:38 -0600, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
> >Depends on the recipe. I don't bother for breads but some cakes need it.
> >Doesn't seem to matter for biscuits ie cookies.
>
> How about pizza dough? I am trying out homemade pizza this
> weekend...from the American Pie book, by Peter Reinhardt...
>
> Christine

Our Extension Agent's office recommends using a little less yeast. Thing rise
quicker up here where the air is rare.. Unless you want fluffy pizza?
Edrena

Christine Dabney > said:

> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:17:38 -0600, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
> >Depends on the recipe. I don't bother for breads but some cakes need it.
> >Doesn't seem to matter for biscuits ie cookies.
>
> How about pizza dough? I am trying out homemade pizza this
> weekend...from the American Pie book, by Peter Reinhardt...

We need better quotes. I assume we're no longer discussing beans??

Carol

--
Coming at you live, from beautiful Lake Woebegon

Christine Dabney wrote:
>
> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:17:38 -0600, Arri London >
> wrote:
>
> >Depends on the recipe. I don't bother for breads but some cakes need it.
> >Doesn't seem to matter for biscuits ie cookies.
>
> How about pizza dough? I am trying out homemade pizza this
> weekend...from the American Pie book, by Peter Reinhardt...
>
> Christine

Use less yeast; it will rise higher than at sea level. You could bake
that at a higher temp.

On 27-Jun-2005, wrote:

> I seem to be completely unable to cook beans.
>
> What usually happens is I start with some pinto beans. I soak them
> overnight in a pot of water, then put them in a pan full of water and
> let them simmer 4-5 hours. They're always still tough, rather than
> soft, and the water remains watery rather than thick and hearty.
>
> What am I doing wrong? Do I have to put these things in a pressure
> cooker for a week?

Your post reads like my own lifelong complaint. The subject came up on
A.F.B and several posters chimed in with their method proclaiming they
had been successful for many years. Well, it sounded just like I always
did mine, but mine were always a pitiful excuse for beans just like yours.
Well, I explicitly followed some of the instructions I was given even though
I had already done that (or thought I did). That was about six months ago.
I haven't had a problem with beans since.

So, here's a couple of suggestion.

I like to soak my beans overnight and then throw out the soak water and
rinse the beans well under the coldwater faucet. Rinsing doesn't do any-
thing for the final texture, but it promotes a 'fresher' taste in the final
product. It actually isn't necessary to soad the beans at all to achieve
a decent texture. Soaking just cuts down on the cooking time.

Cover the beans with two inches of water and bring it to a rolling boil. Let
it boil hard for ten minutes or so, then reduce to simmer. You can add a
little salt to the water, but don't add anything else. If you like hocks or
something like that in your beans, don't add it until the beans have been
simmering for awhile. Don't start your beans with anything but water and
a little salt. Add non-acidic ingredients after the first hour. Add acidic
products like tomatoes only after the bean have appreciably softened.
--
The Brick® said that (Work harder; millions on welfare depend on you. )

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 21:48:11 GMT, "Brick" >
wrote:

>
>On 27-Jun-2005, wrote:
>
>> I seem to be completely unable to cook beans.
>>
>> What usually happens is I start with some pinto beans. I soak them
>> overnight in a pot of water, then put them in a pan full of water and
>> let them simmer 4-5 hours. They're always still tough, rather than
>> soft, and the water remains watery rather than thick and hearty.
>>
>> What am I doing wrong? Do I have to put these things in a pressure
>> cooker for a week?
>
>Your post reads like my own lifelong complaint. The subject came up on
>A.F.B and several posters chimed in with their method proclaiming they
>had been successful for many years. Well, it sounded just like I always
>did mine, but mine were always a pitiful excuse for beans just like yours.
>Well, I explicitly followed some of the instructions I was given even though
>I had already done that (or thought I did). That was about six months ago.
>I haven't had a problem with beans since.
>
>So, here's a couple of suggestion.
>
>I like to soak my beans overnight and then throw out the soak water and
>rinse the beans well under the coldwater faucet. Rinsing doesn't do any-
>thing for the final texture, but it promotes a 'fresher' taste in the final
>product. It actually isn't necessary to soad the beans at all to achieve
>a decent texture. Soaking just cuts down on the cooking time.
>
>Cover the beans with two inches of water and bring it to a rolling boil. Let
>it boil hard for ten minutes or so, then reduce to simmer. You can add a
>little salt to the water, but don't add anything else. If you like hocks or
>something like that in your beans, don't add it until the beans have been
>simmering for awhile. Don't start your beans with anything but water and
>a little salt. Add non-acidic ingredients after the first hour. Add acidic
>products like tomatoes only after the bean have appreciably softened.

I never had the problem with the beans cooking thoroughly once I
learned to either.. soak them overnight and rinse them, and then bring
to a boil, skim off the foam and then simmer. OR the quick cook
method of....start with cold water and bring to a boil and boil a
minute or two..then shut them off to soak for an hour ..or a bit
longer and then bring back to a boil then simmer until a bean pressed
against the side of the pot easily mashes.

However, no matter what I did, how long I soaked them rinsed them
after soaking before further cooking, cumin in them etc, .. I couldn't
kill the gas causing effects of the beans and they about killed me! I
could eat canned beans, no problems at all. So, I bought a pressure
cooker, and I still soak them, rinse them as usual, but pressure
cooking them makes them so I can eat them like store canned beans.

However, I got to thinking about the dry beans I was cooking ..it
could be that the beans I was starting with had been sitting around
awhile, and some had been in the freezer to keep the bugs out of them,
and it could be that they were just not as fresh as the ones that are
canned. I think the longer they are from harvest the harder they are
to cook to a non-lethal point of gas inducement for ME. But .. they
were always nice and soft at the point I ate them.

But, yes I did learn that if you don't either soak them overnight...
OR.. do that quick soak method of starting with cold water and
bringing them to a boil and then shutting them off and waiting an hour
before resuming cooking.. they NEVER got completely done, they'd have
hard chunks .. just like rice that wasn't started with enough water
and covered after bringing to a boil and turned down and the cover
left UNDISTURBED for that 20 minutes or more..uncover it.. not enough
water.. and you had hard chunks in the rice. Of course the fresher
the rice, new rice as they called it at the oriental market, the less
water you needed to cook it...or you added just a bit more rice..or it
is mushy. So you kinda need to know how old your product is when you
go to to cook it ;-)

Janice