A new friend is coming to dinner on Thursday. As always, I want this
meal to be relatively informal and normal while still impressing the
hell out of her. As always, I've asked if she has dietary restrictions.
She said she's an omnivore who tries to eat relatively healthy
(meaning that she's not going to stuff herself with rich food though a
small rich
dessert or one rich side dish would be fine). She doesn't like
shellfish (meaning oysters and shrimp), raw onions or raw peppers.


With our weather so hot, I thought cold gazpacho would be impressive as
something people don't make for themselves but still normal and healthy,
but then I remembered the no raw onions restriction and nixed that idea.
(Unless someone has tried it with no onions or with cooked onions and
can recommend that route.) Then I thought of cold cucumber soup, but
Jim made yeching noises when I suggested it. I've never been overly
impressed with vichyssoise myself (cold potato soup) as it has always
seemed bland to me. Cold fruit soups have always seemed like dessert to
me. Any ideas? Of course, I don't have to serve a cold soup as a first
course. I just liked the idea.


Perhaps a quinoa salad? I could put in minced carrot, celery, cilantro,
snow peas, cucumber and zucchini with a sesame dressing. Normally I'd
put a little scallions and red bell pepper in it too, but I could leave
them out.


I need ideas for a main course too. I don't want to cook out barbecue
style. Maybe I could broil marinated chicken, serve corn on the cob and
put some marinated mushrooms, eggplant, tomatoes and zucchini on skewers
and broil them too. Thoughts?


Dessert should be easy. I've posted the recipe for raspberry fool with
whipped cream and creme anglaise before. I'm doing that though our
raspberries aren't quite ready. I may use frozen raspberries and
blueberries, or I may use fresh strawberries.


--Lia

Here's a link to some chilled soups:

http://www.cdkitchen.com/recipes/cat/366/0.shtml

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> With our weather so hot, I thought cold gazpacho would be impressive as
> something people don't make for themselves but still normal and healthy,
> but then I remembered the no raw onions restriction and nixed that idea.
> (Unless someone has tried it with no onions or with cooked onions and
> can recommend that route.) Then I thought of cold cucumber soup, but
> Jim made yeching noises when I suggested it. I've never been overly
> impressed with vichyssoise myself (cold potato soup) as it has always
> seemed bland to me. Cold fruit soups have always seemed like dessert to
> me. Any ideas? Of course, I don't have to serve a cold soup as a first
> course. I just liked the idea.

See below from Epicurious - one of my facvorite soups...

Dimitri


VICHYSSOISE


2 cups finely diced raw potatoes
4 tablespoons butter
6 leeks, cleaned and cut into 1 inch pieces
3 cups chicken bouillon
1 teaspoon salt
1/2 teaspoon freshy ground black pepper
a dash of nutmeg
11/2 to 2 cups sour cream or heavy cream
Chopped chives

Cook the potatoes in salted water to cover until just tender. Melt the butter in
a skillet and cool the leeks gently, tossing them lightly, for a few minutes.
Add the chicken bouillon and bring to a boil. Lower the heat and simmer the
leeks until tender. Add the potatoes to the leeks and the broth and season to
taste with salt, papper and nutmeg. Put this mixture in the blender (you will
need to blend it in two lots) and blend for 1 minute, or until smooth. Chill.
When ready to serve, mix in sour cream or heavy cream. Garnish with chopped
chives.

Serves 6.

House & Garden

September 1962

ZUCCHINI VICHYSSOISE

Zucchini gives a summery twist to the classic leek-and-potato soup; this new
take on an old favorite is served at Quisiana.


3 tablespoons butter
1 1/2 pound large leeks (white and pale green parts only), thinly sliced (about
2 1/2 cups)
8 garlic cloves, chopped
1 1/2 pounds Yukon Gold potatoes, peeled, cut into 2-inch pieces
1 pound zucchini, cut into 1-inch rounds
4 1/2 cups (or more) canned low-salt chicken broth
2 cups half and half
Chopped fresh chives

Melt butter in heavy large pot over medium heat. Add leeks and garlic; sauté
until tender, about 6 minutes. Add potatoes and zucchini; sauté 5 minutes. Add 4
1/2 cups broth and bring to a boil. Reduce heat and simmer until potatoes are
tender, about 15 minutes. Cool 30 minutes.
Working in batches, puree soup in blender. Transfer soup to large bowl. Mix in
half and half. Season to taste with salt and pepper. Cover and refrigerate until
cold, about 4 hours. (Can be made 2 days ahead. Keep refrigerated. Before
serving, thin with additional broth, if necessary.)
Ladle soup into bowl. Sprinkle with chives and serve.

Makes 8 servings.

Bon Appétit

August 2002
chef Laurie Smith

Quisiana, Center Lovell, ME

Julia Altshuler wrote:
>>
>> With our weather so hot, I thought cold gazpacho would be impressive
>> as something people don't make for themselves but still normal and
>> healthy, but then I remembered the no raw onions restriction and
>> nixed that idea.

Here is a gazpacho made without onions. It is very nice and refreshing, and
haven't found anyone who hasn't liked it yet.

Gazpacho Andaluz - 4-6 servings
Chef Stef George

1 slice sourdough bread, crusts removed ( I use any substantial bread I have
on hand.. not the wonderbread types)
1 large cucumber, peeled, seeded and chopped
2 lbs very ripe tomatoes, chopped (I have used the canned)
1 clove garlic, peeled and chopped
1 Tbsp sherry vinegar (red wine vinegar works as well)
1/2 cup extra virgin olive oil
salt to taste

Garnishes : finely diced green pepper, cucumber, tomato, red onion, small
croutons

Soak bread in water for 30 minutes. Drain and squeeze out excess water.

In a blender, purée bread, cucumber, tomato, garlic, vinegar, and salt to
taste.
(I wait to do that salt)

Add the oil in a slow stream with the blender running to allow for
emulsification.

This is when I add the salt to taste. At this time you can also add water
to thin to a soup consistency if necessary. I haven't found this necessary
when I use the canned tomatoes with the juice.

Strain through a coarse sieve, pressing as much of the pulp through as
possible. Chill.

Adjust seasoning before serving.

Serve with garnishes on the side.

Enjoy!

Debbie

allrecipes.com has lots of cold soup recipes as well.

http://soup.allrecipes.com/directory/1770.asp

A google search turned up a lot of sites as well.

Debbie

Julia wrote:

> With our weather so hot, I thought cold gazpacho would be impressive as
> something people don't make for themselves but still normal and healthy,
> but then I remembered the no raw onions restriction and nixed that idea.
> (Unless someone has tried it with no onions or with cooked onions and
> can recommend that route.) Then I thought of cold cucumber soup, but
> Jim made yeching noises when I suggested it. I've never been overly
> impressed with vichyssoise myself (cold potato soup) as it has always
> seemed bland to me. Cold fruit soups have always seemed like dessert to
> me. Any ideas? Of course, I don't have to serve a cold soup as a first
> course. I just liked the idea.

The onion restriction really cuts out a lot of contenders. Here are a couple
of good recipes for chilled soup which don't contain onions:


Ajo Blanco con Uvas
(White Garlic Soup with Grapes, from _The Foods and Wines of Spain_)

4 oz blanched almonds
2 cloves garlic, peeled
1 1/2 teaspoons salt
4 slices day-old bread, crusts removed
6 tablespoons olive oil
3 tablespoons red wine vinegar
Garlic croutons (bread sautéed in butter and garlic)
4 cups ice water
seedless green grapes, peeled, about 6 per portion
toasted sliced almonds


Method:

Blend the almonds, garlic and salt in a food processor until the almonds are
finely ground. Soak the bread in cold water and squeeze to extract most of
the moisture.

With the motor running, gradually add the bread to the almond mixture.
Leaving the motor running, pour in the oil in a thin stream, scraping any
residue from the side as you go. Add the vinegar in a similar fashion. Beat
in one cup of the ice water. Transfer the soup to a large bowl and stir in
the remaining 3 cups of ice water. Add more salt and vinegar if desired.
Strain, pressing with the back of a spoon to extract as much liquid as
possible. chill.

Serve very cold, garnished with the croutons, grapes, and almonds (the
grapes are not merely decorative; they are essential to the soup's flavor).
Serve with a medium-dry white wine such as Viña Esmeralda.



Chilled Lettuce and Pea Soup (from _A Celebration of Soups_)

4 tablespoons butter
4 medium-sized onions, peeled and chopped
1 large head iceberg lettuce or 3 heads Boston lettuce, rinsed, trimmed, and
shredded
1 1/4 pounds peas, shelled
6 cups chicken stock
3 bay leaves
3 whole cloves
2 teaspoons sugar
Salt
White pepper
Chopped fresh mint

In a soup kettle heat the butter over medium-low heat and cook the onions
until translucent.

Add the next seven ingredients. Bring the liquid to a boil, reduce the heat,
and simmer the vegetables, covered, for 45 minutes.

Blend the mixture (either in a blender or with an immersion blender in the
pot) until it is smooth.

Season the soup with salt and white pepper. Chill it for at least 4 hours.
Before serving, taste and re-season if necessary. Serve garnished with mint.


BOB'S NOTES:

1. This makes about a half-gallon of soup; I generally cut the recipe by a
factor of three.

2. You might not need the sugar. Taste the soup before adding it and don't
add it if you think it might make the soup too sweet.

3. Do try to use white pepper rather than black pepper; it makes a
difference.

4. Instead of doing the mint garnish, you could put a dollop of yogurt, sour
cream, or creme fraiche on top of the soup. I've been known to pour a couple
tablespoons of buttermilk on top instead and sprinkle with crumbled bacon.


I'll address the salad and main course concerns in a different post.

Bob

Julia Altshuler wrote:
> A new friend is coming to dinner on Thursday. As always, I want this
> meal to be relatively informal and normal while still impressing the
> hell out of her.
>
> Any ideas?

Borchst with sour cream is prettier but I'm partial to shav (sour grass
soup - sorrel). I see no reason you can't serve both. Mix either with
sour cream, and have hard cooked egg slices, diced seeded cukes, and
dill as garnishes

http://www.manischewitz.com/docs/man_62.shtml

Sheldon

Julia wrote:

> Perhaps a quinoa salad? I could put in minced carrot, celery, cilantro,
> snow peas, cucumber and zucchini with a sesame dressing. Normally I'd
> put a little scallions and red bell pepper in it too, but I could leave
> them out.

Personally, I think couscous, millet, or bulgur would work better than
quinoa as a salad. (That's just my personal preference.)

I'd also want to ensure that the salad matched with the soup. Since you like
the idea of a cold soup, maybe you can find one which has some Asian or
Middle-Eastern flavor notes which could play off well against the sesame
dressing you contemplate for the salad. Or you could choose a soup recipe
first, and then tailor the salad flavors to complement the soup flavors.


> I need ideas for a main course too. I don't want to cook out barbecue
> style. Maybe I could broil marinated chicken, serve corn on the cob and
> put some marinated mushrooms, eggplant, tomatoes and zucchini on skewers
> and broil them too. Thoughts?

Hrm. This seems like a good time for teriyaki chicken, pork, or beef: Then
you could have a grain salad as mentioned above, or any of the cold Asian
noodle salads discussed here in the past. Teriyaki vegetable skewers are
usually a hit, provided you've got a good teriyaki sauce. Finally, and I
admit that I'm improvising wildly here, for a cold soup, how about cold
consommé with enoki mushrooms and a few drops of soy and lemon juice?

There are half-a-dozen menus clamoring for attention in my head, but I
*have* to go to bed now. So here's an Iron-Chef kind of exercise: Think of
the following cuisines, and how your menu template (cold soup, salad, main
dish, side dish, and dessert) can be met using elements either from one
cuisine at a time, or how to harmoniously fuse more than one cuisine:

Spanish, Moroccan, Lebanese, Italian, Neo-Scandinavian, New American,
Indian, Japanese


Bob sleep now. *thud*nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnn.....

"Debbie" > wrote in message
...
> allrecipes.com has lots of cold soup recipes as well.
>
> http://soup.allrecipes.com/directory/1770.asp
>

Swan's Summer Soup (with tomatoes, corn and avocado) on allrecipes.com
sounds really good. No onions! I will try that when our tomatoes come
in.

I browsed the summer soup recipes on epicurious.com and came across a
lot of recipes (search using cold or chilled soup). Chilled Carrot Soup
with Cumin and Lime got a lot of great reviews -- I plan to try it soon.
It uses leeks, but they get pureed into the soup. Don't know if that's
acceptable. Chilled Red Pepper Soup with Croutons and Basil looks good,
too -- the peppers are roasted and are pureed w/ a sauteed onion.

Chris

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> Julia wrote:
>
> There are half-a-dozen menus clamoring for attention in my head, but I
> *have* to go to bed now. So here's an Iron-Chef kind of exercise:
> Think of
> the following cuisines, and how your menu template (cold soup, salad,
> main
> dish, side dish, and dessert) can be met using elements either from
> one
> cuisine at a time, or how to harmoniously fuse more than one cuisine:
>
> Spanish, Moroccan, Lebanese, Italian, Neo-Scandinavian, New American,
> Indian, Japanese
>
>
> Bob sleep now.
> *thud*nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn nnnn.....
>
Good thing I didn't read this last night! I would have been up until
dawn trying to come up with a Neo-Scandanavian menu. Fun exercise,
though!

Chris

Thanks for the ideas so far. For the cold soup, I've decided on
carrot-ginger. (I really like the white garlic soup idea, but I think
I'll try that some time when I don't have a guest coming over. It looks
easy, but I know not to experiment at the critical moment.) For the
salad, I'm now undecided between quinoa and noodle salad. I've been
substituting quinoa for millet, couscous or bulgur for so long that I
forget that it's a little unusual. Quinoa works well because it holds
its shape and is just unusual enough but not so weird that people aren't
willing to try it. (And back from my health food days, I like it
because wheat is invariably somewhere else on the menu, and the health
foodies insist on variety.) Bob makes a good point about flavors
matching so the ginger soup and sesame dressing should work.


I think I'm set on the vegetable skewers idea too and some sort of
chicken. Even relatively plain work.


Keep the ideas coming even if they're in opposition to what I just wrote.


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the ideas so far. For the cold soup, I've decided on
> carrot-ginger.

That sounds good -- I'm sure you'll report on the soup and your meal,
and I look forward to hearing how it goes.

> For the
> salad, I'm now undecided between quinoa and noodle salad. I've been
> substituting quinoa for millet, couscous or bulgur for so long that I
> forget that it's a little unusual.

I haven't made quinoa, but recently had a quinoa-orzo salad that was
really good. It wasn't too quinoa-y. It had chopped red bell pepper,
celery, green onions, cucumbers, craisins, feta cheese and pine nuts,
with a slightly sweet lemon/olive oil dressing. Sounds downright weird,
but it was delicious and I couldn't stop eating it. We had it w/ cold
pasta w/ cilantro pesto and a very herbal grilled chicken. Not that
this would work w/ your meal -- just reminiscing.


Chris

Julia Altshuler > wrote:

> With our weather so hot, I thought cold gazpacho would be impressive as
> something people don't make for themselves but still normal and healthy,
> but then I remembered the no raw onions restriction and nixed that idea.
> (Unless someone has tried it with no onions or with cooked onions and
> can recommend that route.) Then I thought of cold cucumber soup, but
> Jim made yeching noises when I suggested it. I've never been overly
> impressed with vichyssoise myself (cold potato soup) as it has always
> seemed bland to me. Cold fruit soups have always seemed like dessert to
> me. Any ideas? Of course, I don't have to serve a cold soup as a first
> course. I just liked the idea.

Try pureeing chilled cooked carrots with some cream, salt, pepper, and a
bit of ginger. I really like this cold soup.

serene

serene wrote:

> Try pureeing chilled cooked carrots with some cream, salt, pepper, and a
> bit of ginger. I really like this cold soup.


Funny you should suggest this as that's just what I did last night
before reading your post this morning. (I wanted the soup to have time
to chill before serving tonight.)


While still summertime hot, we now have rain which has brought down the
temperature a little so I'm not as interested in a cool-cool menu. The
chilled soup is still good, but now I'm thinking just a green salad and
coq au vin instead of marinated barbecued chicken.


--Lia

Chris wrote:

> That sounds good -- I'm sure you'll report on the soup and your meal,
> and I look forward to hearing how it goes.


Here's the report. The first course was a carrot-ginger soup. I
browned an onion (1 onion, fist sized, chopped), added 1# carrots
(peeled and rough chopped, about 3 cups) and enough water just to cover
and boiled until tender. I then pureed the whole thing in the blender.
When the blender blades wouldn't move because the mixture was too
thick, I added cream and milk (maybe 1/2 cup cream and 1 cup milk. I
really meant to measure so I could tell you guys, but I didn't at that
point.) I also added a good Tablespoon of grated ginger (I keep mine
preserved in sherry in the fridge.) I let it cool overnight. My guest
pronounced it good and worried that it might be too rich for her because
it was so thick. I reassured her that the thickness was only due to
using lots of carrots and less liquid. Perhaps I could have thinned it
out a little more. The flavor was very good.


The second course was coq au vin. I normally use the recipe in Joy of
Cooking. This time I didn't add the carrots but used celery instead and
some shiitake mushrooms in addition to the button ones. It didn't come
out as well as it has in the past. That may have been because of the
quality of the wine. I have to figure out the right wine to cook with
that doesn't cost too much but holds its taste after longer simmering.


Dessert was fabulous. We had raspberries from our own garden, good
strawberries, blueberries and cherries. She said she feels most
comfortable when she has something to do to help so I put her to work
pitting cherries. I'd said I'd make raspberry fool but changed my mind
at the last minute and went with berries in sabayon sauce instead.
That's 4 egg yolks and 1/3 cup sugar whipped together in the top of a
double boiler for several minutes, then 3/4 cup champagne added while
whipping for another 10 minutes. We took turns whipping. It came out
great. The quality of the fruit was excellent, and the sauce added to
the flavor and complemented instead of overpowering. Somehow the
amounts worked out right too with most of the dessert just being the
excellent fruit and only a little sauce.


This is a new friend I met at a party last December. The only trouble
with the evening is that she came over to help me with a webpage. I've
never had one and know nothing about how much they're supposed to cost.
The only thing I know about webpages is that I've looked at a few.
She showed me her other customers' pages, and I'm not sure I liked them
all that well. So I have to figure out what I think of her prices and
pages. I'd say the evening went well.


--Lia

On Thu 07 Jul 2005 06:56:20p, Julia Altshuler wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Chris wrote:
>
>> That sounds good -- I'm sure you'll report on the soup and your meal,
>> and I look forward to hearing how it goes.
>
>
> Here's the report. The first course was a carrot-ginger soup. I
> browned an onion (1 onion, fist sized, chopped), added 1# carrots
> (peeled and rough chopped, about 3 cups) and enough water just to cover
> and boiled until tender. I then pureed the whole thing in the blender.
> When the blender blades wouldn't move because the mixture was too
> thick, I added cream and milk (maybe 1/2 cup cream and 1 cup milk. I
> really meant to measure so I could tell you guys, but I didn't at that
> point.) I also added a good Tablespoon of grated ginger (I keep mine
> preserved in sherry in the fridge.) I let it cool overnight. My guest
> pronounced it good and worried that it might be too rich for her because
> it was so thick. I reassured her that the thickness was only due to
> using lots of carrots and less liquid. Perhaps I could have thinned it
> out a little more. The flavor was very good.
>
>
> The second course was coq au vin. I normally use the recipe in Joy of
> Cooking. This time I didn't add the carrots but used celery instead and
> some shiitake mushrooms in addition to the button ones. It didn't come
> out as well as it has in the past. That may have been because of the
> quality of the wine. I have to figure out the right wine to cook with
> that doesn't cost too much but holds its taste after longer simmering.
>
>
> Dessert was fabulous. We had raspberries from our own garden, good
> strawberries, blueberries and cherries. She said she feels most
> comfortable when she has something to do to help so I put her to work
> pitting cherries. I'd said I'd make raspberry fool but changed my mind
> at the last minute and went with berries in sabayon sauce instead.
> That's 4 egg yolks and 1/3 cup sugar whipped together in the top of a
> double boiler for several minutes, then 3/4 cup champagne added while
> whipping for another 10 minutes. We took turns whipping. It came out
> great. The quality of the fruit was excellent, and the sauce added to
> the flavor and complemented instead of overpowering. Somehow the
> amounts worked out right too with most of the dessert just being the
> excellent fruit and only a little sauce.
>
>
> This is a new friend I met at a party last December. The only trouble
> with the evening is that she came over to help me with a webpage. I've
> never had one and know nothing about how much they're supposed to cost.
> The only thing I know about webpages is that I've looked at a few.
> She showed me her other customers' pages, and I'm not sure I liked them
> all that well. So I have to figure out what I think of her prices and
> pages. I'd say the evening went well.
>
>
> --Lia

Lia, designing a web page is not all that difficult, especially for someone
who does it professionally. She should have designed a webpage for you for
free after that dinner! Sounds wonderful!!!

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974


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Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> Lia, designing a web page is not all that difficult, especially for someone
> who does it professionally. She should have designed a webpage for you for
> free after that dinner! Sounds wonderful!!!


You hit on exactly the sticky problem I've been mulling over all day. I
would never charge a friend for dinner in my own home. Cooking a good
meal is fun and isn't all that difficult once you know how, but it does
take learning how to do. The same is true for webpages. Jim keeps
telling me I should learn to do the webpage for myself. On the one
hand, web design is a professional service one should expect to be paid
for. On the other hand, like cooking, it is the sort of thing one could
do as a favor for a friend once you have the know-how. I'm sure she's
not overcharging me, but she did meet me briefly at a party, volunteer
that she'd like to do the webpage for me out of the blue, then bring up
the price after she'd eaten the home-cooked meal. I have mixed feelings
about all of this.


--Lia

On Fri 08 Jul 2005 03:58:04p, Julia Altshuler wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
>> Lia, designing a web page is not all that difficult, especially for
>> someone who does it professionally. She should have designed a webpage
>> for you for free after that dinner! Sounds wonderful!!!
>
>
> You hit on exactly the sticky problem I've been mulling over all day. I
> would never charge a friend for dinner in my own home. Cooking a good
> meal is fun and isn't all that difficult once you know how, but it does
> take learning how to do. The same is true for webpages. Jim keeps
> telling me I should learn to do the webpage for myself. On the one
> hand, web design is a professional service one should expect to be paid
> for. On the other hand, like cooking, it is the sort of thing one could
> do as a favor for a friend once you have the know-how. I'm sure she's
> not overcharging me, but she did meet me briefly at a party, volunteer
> that she'd like to do the webpage for me out of the blue, then bring up
> the price after she'd eaten the home-cooked meal. I have mixed feelings
> about all of this.
>
>
> --Lia

Hmmm... Seems like odd or poor timing on her part to talk fees at the very
last. I would be inclined to decline and learn on your own. There are
some very good design tools out there that make it rather simple to
accomplish, and you would be learning a valuable skill on your own. Unless
timing is critical in getting a webpage up and running, I would pass.

--
Wayne Boatwright Õ¿Õ¬
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974

Julia wrote:

> I would never charge a friend for dinner in my own home. Cooking a good
> meal is fun and isn't all that difficult once you know how, but it does
> take learning how to do. The same is true for webpages. Jim keeps
> telling me I should learn to do the webpage for myself. On the one hand,
> web design is a professional service one should expect to be paid for. On
> the other hand, like cooking, it is the sort of thing one could do as a
> favor for a friend once you have the know-how. I'm sure she's not
> overcharging me, but she did meet me briefly at a party, volunteer that
> she'd like to do the webpage for me out of the blue, then bring up the
> price after she'd eaten the home-cooked meal. I have mixed feelings about
> all of this.

Here's what I see as the crux of the matter: Is she a FRIEND? To my way of
thinking, if she thought of you as a friend, she would have offered to
create the web page as a favor to her new friend. It seems to me that the
two of you are working at cross-purposes: You're trying to strike up a
friendship with someone who is trying to drum up business for herself. To
put it bluntly, your goal was her friendship, while her goal was your money.
(Not an unusual situation at all; it happens in strip clubs all the time!)
You did the appropriate "friend" action: You invited her to dinner. She did
the appropriate "business" action: She informed you of her fees. So far,
neither of you have achieved your goal: You haven't gotten a friend OR a
website, and she hasn't gotten your money.

I break it down to these three options:
(1) abandon all pretense of friendship and hire her to design your website
(2) learn to design the website yourself
(3) find a web designer willing to work for friendship and/or food. :-)

Of those options, (3) is the most iffy but also the most potentially
rewarding. (2) has its appeal in that education is its own reward. (1) is a
"lose-win" situation, in which your fake-friend gets a free meal AND a
business client. You get only what you would have gotten by picking a web
designer out of the Yellow Pages, and you cooked a meal for a freeloader.

Bob

I don't have the cookbook in front of me now, but the Silver Palate
cookbook has a very nice recipe for Avgolemono soup, which is a cold
chicken soup with lemon juice, eggs, chicken stock and rice, which is
served cold. I've made it in the summer time and it's very tasty and
cooling.

Melissa

I believe you and Wayne have summed up the situation and options well.
(Thank-you.) I can see where this is the sort of thing where everyone
could weigh in with different views on what one does for a friendship
and what constitutes good business practice. (With a subject this
controversial, I could be accused of trolling.) You've heard my side of
the story. Hers could be different. There are lots of mitigating
circumstances. Here are a few:


She brought hot fresh bread from her bread machine to dinner. It was
excellent.


She may have thought she was being clear that she's in the business of
selling webpage design when we met 6 months ago. I honestly don't
remember the details of the conversation. This could all be a matter of
my being naive. It wouldn't be the first time.


I don't know the going price for webpages. She may be offering me an
incredible bargain because she considers me a friend.


She suggested the possibility of barter and said that she's bartered for
webpages in the past. (The webpage would be for homemade quilts, and
she might barter for one.)


In other words, I'm trying to answer the question about "is she a
friend" and am really not sure of the answer. It seems like we have
some things in common and not others, and I enjoy talking to her in some
ways and not others. Very hard to figure.


From her way of looking at it, what sort of person meets someone once
at a party and then expects a free webpage or one in exchange for one
home cooked meal?


To bring this back to topics of food, I'm imagining a situation where
someone owns a small, friendly, family-oriented, restaurant in a small
town. He may consider himself friends with all his customers because
his kids go to school with and play on teams with his customer's
children, and he goes to the same church with other customers and so on.
He wouldn't charge friends for a meal in his home, but he certainly
charges for meals in his restaurant.


O.K, all you computer type folks out the What's the going price for
web design? Nothing fancy, a home page, an artist's bio, thumbnails of
quilts, a little text, a contact page for future email (no encrypted
credit cards), that sort of thing. For those of you who know how to do
this, what's a fair price?


--Lia


Bob wrote:

> Here's what I see as the crux of the matter: Is she a FRIEND? To my way of
> thinking, if she thought of you as a friend, she would have offered to
> create the web page as a favor to her new friend. It seems to me that the
> two of you are working at cross-purposes: You're trying to strike up a
> friendship with someone who is trying to drum up business for herself. To
> put it bluntly, your goal was her friendship, while her goal was your money.
> (Not an unusual situation at all; it happens in strip clubs all the time!)
> You did the appropriate "friend" action: You invited her to dinner. She did
> the appropriate "business" action: She informed you of her fees. So far,
> neither of you have achieved your goal: You haven't gotten a friend OR a
> website, and she hasn't gotten your money.
>
> I break it down to these three options:
> (1) abandon all pretense of friendship and hire her to design your website
> (2) learn to design the website yourself
> (3) find a web designer willing to work for friendship and/or food. :-)
>
> Of those options, (3) is the most iffy but also the most potentially
> rewarding. (2) has its appeal in that education is its own reward. (1) is a
> "lose-win" situation, in which your fake-friend gets a free meal AND a
> business client. You get only what you would have gotten by picking a web
> designer out of the Yellow Pages, and you cooked a meal for a freeloader.
>
> Bob
>
>

On Fri 08 Jul 2005 06:49:29p, Julia Altshuler wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> I believe you and Wayne have summed up the situation and options well.
> (Thank-you.) I can see where this is the sort of thing where everyone
> could weigh in with different views on what one does for a friendship
> and what constitutes good business practice. (With a subject this
> controversial, I could be accused of trolling.) You've heard my side of
> the story. Hers could be different. There are lots of mitigating
> circumstances. Here are a few:

Yes, it does raise some controversy, but I'd hardly consider it a troll.

> She brought hot fresh bread from her bread machine to dinner. It was
> excellent.

That was a very nice gesture, but not unusual when one is invited for
dinner.

> She may have thought she was being clear that she's in the business of
> selling webpage design when we met 6 months ago. I honestly don't
> remember the details of the conversation. This could all be a matter of
> my being naive. It wouldn't be the first time.

From her perspective, I'm sure she considered it a "friendly" business
deal.

> I don't know the going price for webpages. She may be offering me an
> incredible bargain because she considers me a friend.

Since we don't know her prices, that would be hard to evaluate. Prices
can, of course, vary considerably depending on complexity.

> She suggested the possibility of barter and said that she's bartered for
> webpages in the past. (The webpage would be for homemade quilts, and
> she might barter for one.)

Offhand, knowing the going prices for homemade/handmade quilts (at least in
Amish country), her price might be considered high. After all, she isn't
designing a webpage for a major corporation.

> In other words, I'm trying to answer the question about "is she a
> friend" and am really not sure of the answer. It seems like we have
> some things in common and not others, and I enjoy talking to her in some
> ways and not others. Very hard to figure.

Truthfully, it's probably too early in the game to know if there's really a
friendship there. Many people who provide personal services find it
helpful in many ways to maintain a "friendship" type relationship with a
client while the work is being done. That's not to say that it would not
continue afterwards, but who can say at this point.

> From her way of looking at it, what sort of person meets someone once
> at a party and then expects a free webpage or one in exchange for one
> home cooked meal?

Good point. I used to do custom programming and system configuration. One
couple whom I knew as friends long before a question came up, asked me to
work on their home business system. I intended to do it at no cost because
I considered it a simple job. The husband was a contractor. We eventually
slipped into a favor for favor relationship and we both benefited. I don't
think either of us ever felt we provided more than we received.

> To bring this back to topics of food, I'm imagining a situation where
> someone owns a small, friendly, family-oriented, restaurant in a small
> town. He may consider himself friends with all his customers because
> his kids go to school with and play on teams with his customer's
> children, and he goes to the same church with other customers and so on.
> He wouldn't charge friends for a meal in his home, but he certainly
> charges for meals in his restaurant.

Another good point. There were several occasions when I asked my
contractor friend to do projects that clearly went beyond what I could do
for him. I always paid on those occasions (though I'm sure I got a break).

> O.K, all you computer type folks out the What's the going price for
> web design? Nothing fancy, a home page, an artist's bio, thumbnails of
> quilts, a little text, a contact page for future email (no encrypted
> credit cards), that sort of thing. For those of you who know how to do
> this, what's a fair price?

Wish I could help, but the web pages I've designed have been for the
company I work for and were for internal use. I don't have a clue what
they cost.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974


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Julia wrote:

> O.K, all you computer type folks out the What's the going price for
> web design? Nothing fancy, a home page, an artist's bio, thumbnails of
> quilts, a little text, a contact page for future email (no encrypted
> credit cards), that sort of thing. For those of you who know how to do
> this, what's a fair price?

Most web designers I know would be ashamed to make such a trivial page for
more than about $50(US). $80 is definitely too much.

Really, if you have a fairly recent version of MS Word (or access to a
computer with MS Word), it's child's play to make a page like you describe;
it MIGHT take as long as 20 minutes (assuming the bio and other text are
already written and the photos already exist in digital form). You don't
even have to learn HTML.

On the other hand, if you *want* to learn HTML, it's a fairly simple
language to learn. (I've got a book named _Teach Yourself HTML in 24
Hours_.)

Bob

"Bob" > said:

> On the other hand, if you *want* to learn HTML, it's a fairly simple
> language to learn. (I've got a book named _Teach Yourself HTML in 24
> Hours_.)

HTML for Dummies is good, too.

Carol

On Fri 08 Jul 2005 08:34:05p, Bob wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> Julia wrote:
>
>> O.K, all you computer type folks out the What's the going price for
>> web design? Nothing fancy, a home page, an artist's bio, thumbnails of
>> quilts, a little text, a contact page for future email (no encrypted
>> credit cards), that sort of thing. For those of you who know how to do
>> this, what's a fair price?
>
> Most web designers I know would be ashamed to make such a trivial page
> for more than about $50(US). $80 is definitely too much.
>
> Really, if you have a fairly recent version of MS Word (or access to a
> computer with MS Word), it's child's play to make a page like you
> describe; it MIGHT take as long as 20 minutes (assuming the bio and
> other text are already written and the photos already exist in digital
> form). You don't even have to learn HTML.
>
> On the other hand, if you *want* to learn HTML, it's a fairly simple
> language to learn. (I've got a book named _Teach Yourself HTML in 24
> Hours_.)
>
> Bob

There's also an "HTML for Dummies" that isn't a bad reference tool. If
you happen to MS Office Professional, then you should also have Frontpage
as part of the suite. I find it also makes it extremely simple to put a
page together.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974


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I've thought about it some more and think I've reached a conclusion:
I'm not hiring her to do a webpage for me. My thinking went like this.


Let's say it is all about friendship. How much do I like her? Do I
want to hang out with her and make her into a buddy? If I could get
everything I wanted and wasn't thinking about this awkward
friend/business thing, is friendship what I want? I gave it some
serious thought and decided the answer was no. I didn't mention this
earlier, but at dinner, I brought up several topics of conversation that
are of interest to me that didn't go anywhere with her. She did say
some nice things about some of the quilts, but isn't enthusiastic about
them. That's O.K., they're not for everyone. Meanwhile, she's
interested in computers. I'm not. Our conversation was a lot like the
ones I have with all my customers at work in which everyone is pleasant,
but no one reveals anything of a truly important, personal
or emotional nature. That's not what I'm looking for in a friend.


Let's say it is all about business. Let's say I had no misgivings about
how I got the business referral and was only hiring her to do a web
page. If I want something very simple, as y'all have pointed out, I
should give learning to do it myself a try before I pay someone else to
do it. But the more I think about it, the more I think I don't want
something that simple. I've seen her work, and I'm not impressed.
Granted this is a hobby for me (when I do sell something, I'm thrilled),
but if I'm going to have a webpage, why not make it look professional?
While I have made and enjoy making traditional quilts, I want to get
away from the stereotype of quilts as homey bedcovers. The whole idea
of having a professional webpage was so I could start thinking of myself
as a fiber artist. We don't have the same professional vision.
When she said that I'd need a picture of myself, she suggested one of me
sitting at a sewing machine. I was thinking more along the lines of
glamour shots, something funky and wild.


I'm realizing that knowing how to do a webpage is 2 things: the
technical part which I don't know how to do but that everyone promises
me is easy, and the design part for which I could use some artistic
guidance but for which I don't think she's the person. I'm more
interested in learning to do the design for myself. I think I could
look at lots of webpages and have some definite ideas for what would
make it look its best.


And this leads to my conclusion. If I'd decided that I didn't want to
hire her after she came all the way out here at considerable
inconvenience, I'd feel a tad guilty. As it is, I gave her a good
dinner before deciding I didn't want to hire her, and that makes me feel
better. If I run into her again through mutual friends, I'll feel fine
about talking to her as a friend and then doing something else about the
webpage.


Thanks to all for letting me work this out.


--Lia

On Sat 09 Jul 2005 04:33:38p, Julia Altshuler wrote in rec.food.cooking:

> I've thought about it some more and think I've reached a conclusion:
> I'm not hiring her to do a webpage for me. My thinking went like this.

Lia, I think you made a wise decision.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
____________________________________________

Give me a smart idiot over a stupid genius any day.
Sam Goldwyn, 1882-1974


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Julia Altshuler wrote:

> She suggested the possibility of barter and said that she's bartered for
> webpages in the past. (The webpage would be for homemade quilts, and
> she might barter for one.)
>

No way. I have done both - web design and quilt making. In no way is
that an even exchange, BELIEVE ME! I don't care how complicated the
page might be. It takes 100 times more time, energy, money and effort
to make a quilt.

-L.

-L. wrote:
>
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
>
>>She suggested the possibility of barter and said that she's bartered for
>>webpages in the past. (The webpage would be for homemade quilts, and
>>she might barter for one.)
>>
>
>
> No way. I have done both - web design and quilt making. In no way is
> that an even exchange, BELIEVE ME! I don't care how complicated the
> page might be. It takes 100 times more time, energy, money and effort
> to make a quilt.


You've confirmed what I said when it came up in our conversation. She
gave me a range of prices for the webpage and mentioned the possibility
of barter. My price for a queensize quilt (home made, machine work,
traditional pattern design, unusual fabric choices) was double her price
for the most complicated webpage. Even so, that's not what killed the
deal. It was that she didn't really want a quilt. She was considerate
enough to bring up the possibility when I was hesitating about the
webpage (I don't mean to portray her as all bad; in many ways she's
completely reasonable), but she also said that she doesn't have space
for a fabric wallhanging and has plenty of bedcovers. I know I'd be
willing to barter with someone who adored my work and genuninely
couldn't afford to pay for it any other way, and she's willing to barter
for a webpage with the same reasoning.


--Lia

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote

> You've confirmed what I said when it came up in our conversation. She
> gave me a range of prices for the webpage and mentioned the possibility of
> barter. My price for a queensize quilt (home made, machine work,
> traditional pattern design, unusual fabric choices) was double her price
> for the most complicated webpage.

You know, I did a doubletake when you said she'd take a quilt for a
webpage. She showed a complete disrespect for what you do. It is
obvious she has no idea what goes into making a quilt. Shoot, even I
could design a crude webpage, what *she* does is no big deal.

> Even so, that's not what killed the deal. It was that she didn't really
> want a quilt.

I want a quilt, force one on me! (laugh)

Actually, I can't believe you made such an elaborate meal for her, next
time keep it just business. Contact your local community college,
whatever, get some kid to do it for you. I would definitely get busy
and decide how you want your page arranged before letting someone
just come in and do what they like. You know, like a notebook, plan
out what you want on the home page, next page, what you'd want there,
like that.

Good luck, and when it's up and running, please let us know, I for one am
dying to see the quilts.

nancy

"Julia Altshuler" > wrote in message
> . My price for a queensize quilt (home made, machine work, traditional
> pattern design, unusual fabric choices) was double her price for the most
> complicated webpage. Even so, that's not what killed the deal. It was
> that she didn't really want a quilt. She was considerate enough to bring
> up the possibility when I was hesitating about the webpage (I don't mean
> to portray her as all bad; in many ways she's completely reasonable), but
> she also said that she doesn't have space for a fabric wallhanging and has
> plenty of bedcovers.

Make her a nice pillow

Nancy Young wrote:

> You know, I did a doubletake when you said she'd take a quilt for a
> webpage. She showed a complete disrespect for what you do. It is
> obvious she has no idea what goes into making a quilt. Shoot, even I
> could design a crude webpage, what *she* does is no big deal.


No, no! She's not that bad. This isn't one of those situations where
she's all wrong, and I'm the total good-guy. There's a fair amount of
grey area and misunderstanding here. She didn't suggest that she'd take
a quilt. She honestly didn't know what they're worth, brought up the
possibility of barter and understood immediately when I told her the
price of a quilt.


> Actually, I can't believe you made such an elaborate meal for her,

But I like cooking, like having friends over, enjoyed her company, feel
good about it and would take the chance again that someone I met at a
party would turn into a better friend in the future. Just because this
one didn't work out, doesn't mean that I'd keep it just business next
time. When I started, I didn't know the business details. Now I do.


next
> time keep it just business. Contact your local community college,
> whatever, get some kid to do it for you. I would definitely get busy
> and decide how you want your page arranged before letting someone
> just come in and do what they like. You know, like a notebook, plan
> out what you want on the home page, next page, what you'd want there,
> like that.

I love the community college idea. I know just where to put up the sign
too.


> Good luck, and when it's up and running, please let us know, I for one am
> dying to see the quilts.


A friend has put up some quilt pictures for me on his webpage. Though
it isn't a commercial site, I'm don't want anyone thinking I'm
advertising here or trying to turn a cooking group into a quilting one,
so if you're interested, email me privately (this address is unmunged),
and I'll tell you where you can you can see pictures of my quilts. Put
"cold soup" in the subject line so I don't delete your message as spam.


--Lia

-L. wrote:
> Julia Altshuler wrote:
>
> > She suggested the possibility of barter and said that she's bartered for
> > webpages in the past. (The webpage would be for homemade quilts, and
> > she might barter for one.)
> >
>
> No way. I have done both - web design and quilt making. In no way is
> that an even exchange, BELIEVE ME! I don't care how complicated the
> page might be. It takes 100 times more time, energy, money and effort
> to make a quilt.

That's not true... depends on the quilt, depends on the webpage...
there are quilts and there are QUILTS, there are webpages and there are
WEBPAGES... size counts too when yer talking bartering.

Yoose logic is fercockt... you're comparing apples with oranges... it's
like trading cheese for steak... there's velveeta and there's
roquefort, there's ground round and there's porterhouse.

And just so happens I know a lot about quilting and a whole, whole lot
about knitting... I do both, never woulda thunk that, eh? Knitting
requires far, far more skill and knowlege than any kinda quilting, in
fact I don't think quilting requires much skill at all, it's mostly
repetitious and time consuming... only a couple paces beyond hook
rugging. I wouldn't even speak about knitting in the same room with
quilting, any good knitter can quilt well, very few quilters of any
caliber are capable of knitting... and I ain't talking two stitch
scarves with $1.49 balls of synthetic from Walmart.

I'd gladly swap a quilt for a webpage, I see no disparity... it's
merely a matter of negotiating for equal complexity and size. I think
you gotta have a way higher IQ to do webpages, any monkey with a lotta
free time can quilt.

Sheldon

"Sheldon" > wrote in message
>
> That's not true... depends on the quilt, depends on the webpage...
> there are quilts and there are QUILTS, there are webpages and there are
> WEBPAGES... size counts too when yer talking bartering.

I know a fellow that does web pages. Most are $50,000 and up.

"Sheldon" > said:

> I'd gladly swap a quilt for a webpage, I see no disparity... it's
> merely a matter of negotiating for equal complexity and size. I think
> you gotta have a way higher IQ to do webpages, any monkey with a lotta
> free time can quilt.

Gotta disagree with you there, Sheldon. They're two very different sets of
skills. This monkey cannot accomplish the precision required to make a
patchwork quilt. I've purchased quilt patterns and mountains of fabrics in
the past. I can't get past the first square. I have nothing but
admiration for someone who can make a quilt.

Carol, who has forgotten how to do web sites

Damsel wrote:
I've purchased quilt patterns and mountains of fabrics in
> the past. I can't get past the first square. I have nothing but
> admiration for someone who can make a quilt.


Carol,

Contact me privately with "cold soup" in the subject line, and I'll give
you the tutorial you need to make it past that first square. From
there, you can decide if you're interested in pursuing the rest of the
quilt.


--Lia

On Fri, 8 Jul 2005, Julia Altshuler wrote:

> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
> > Lia, designing a web page is not all that difficult, especially for someone
> > who does it professionally. She should have designed a webpage for you for
> > free after that dinner! Sounds wonderful!!!
>
>
> You hit on exactly the sticky problem I've been mulling over all day. I
> would never charge a friend for dinner in my own home. Cooking a good
> meal is fun and isn't all that difficult once you know how, but it does
> take learning how to do. The same is true for webpages. Jim keeps
> telling me I should learn to do the webpage for myself. On the one
> hand, web design is a professional service one should expect to be paid
> for. On the other hand, like cooking, it is the sort of thing one could
> do as a favor for a friend once you have the know-how. I'm sure she's
> not overcharging me, but she did meet me briefly at a party, volunteer
> that she'd like to do the webpage for me out of the blue, then bring up
> the price after she'd eaten the home-cooked meal. I have mixed feelings
> about all of this.
>
>
> --Lia

Lia,

I got in late on this thread, so if I have missed something important, I
apologize.

This woman handled herself totally unprofessionally, from what you have
said here. Her approach was completely deceptive and *rude*. If she was
drumming up business, she should have said so up front. There are many
ways to, politely, inform people that you are "for hire". I wouldn't want
to do business with her. I wouldn't trust her to be any more honest than
she was from the beginning. And, she certainly doesn't sound like a
"friend".

I just have to stick in my 2 cents worth about doing a little work here
and there for friends. I have close friends of long-standing that I do
computer work for from time to time and wouldn't even consider charging
them. But, I have hundreds of "friends" that turn up when they have
computer needs. You didn't do this. That woman misrepresented her
intentions. But, I've had to determine who I considered a friend, not who
considered me a friend. It is difficult and it is a difficult place to be
in.

You should invite your "friend" back over for dinner. Draw up a menu with
her and get her approval. Then you should present her with a bill for the
ingredients. I wonder how fast she would cancel? sheesh. I've had way too
many "friends" like her throughout my lifetime.

Good luck

Elaine, too