"Paul Satem" > wrote in message
m...
: It is very unfortunate that the whole Al Qaeda / Iraq crisis has
: turned up the heat in the Muslim vs non-Muslim situation.
:
: For the benefit of those that might not already know it ...
:
: There are several hundred million Muslims in this World. Only a
: fraction are fundamentalists ... and only a very small fraction of all
: fundamentalists are extremists .... and only a very small fraction of
: extremists are terrorists.
:
: Muslims believe in one God, as do the Christians and the Jews.
:
: It is a pity that a very very small group of Muslims have carried out
: certain acts (very sad acts) that have in turn led the rest of the
: World into believing that Islam is a violent and savage religion.
:
: Islam teaches us peace and respect for thy fellow man - regardless of
: colour, race or belief.
:
: Just my own two cents worth, but hopefully it will not fall on too
: many deaf ears.
:
: Thanks.
:
: Paul S

asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out I
have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand that
muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing the
word of Allah to rationalize hatred.

--
Paula Drennan

May the forces of evil become confused
on the way to your house.



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.699 / Virus Database: 456 - Release Date: 6/4/04

Paul Satem wrote:
>

>
> Islam teaches us peace and respect for thy fellow man - regardless of
> colour, race or belief.
>
> Just my own two cents worth, but hopefully it will not fall on too
> many deaf ears.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Paul S




Thank you. I hope you can cure some deafness,

gloria p

Paul Satem wrote:

> It is very unfortunate that the whole Al Qaeda / Iraq crisis has
> turned up the heat in the Muslim vs non-Muslim situation.
>
> For the benefit of those that might not already know it ...
>
> There are several hundred million Muslims in this World. Only a
> fraction are fundamentalists ... and only a very small fraction of all
> fundamentalists are extremists .... and only a very small fraction of
> extremists are terrorists.
>
> Muslims believe in one God, as do the Christians and the Jews.
>
> It is a pity that a very very small group of Muslims have carried out
> certain acts (very sad acts) that have in turn led the rest of the
> World into believing that Islam is a violent and savage religion.
>
> Islam teaches us peace and respect for thy fellow man - regardless of
> colour, race or belief.
>
> Just my own two cents worth, but hopefully it will not fall on too
> many deaf ears.


Moslems are vermin, an absolutely *useless* bunch of people..

--
Best
Greg

>Paul Satem wrote:
>
>Islam teaches us peace and respect for thy fellow man - regardless of
>colour, race or belief.

Yeah, primarily amongst the most vile of criminals; to wit the successful rate
of proselytization in US penitentiaries... there ain't a moslem alive the world
would be better off they were dead... may the force of terminal illnesses shine
brightly upon all moslems (a scourge on the planet).


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

Paula Drennan wrote:

> asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out I
> have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand that
> muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing the
> word of Allah to rationalize hatred.

I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.

The group that took down the World Trade Center met in mosques with
clerics who obviously supported them. It's rather difficult looking in
from the outside at Islam to accept that it's essentially a peaceful
belief set when there can be a price put on a writer's head for
publishing things clerics don't like, when there can be the idea of a
holy war in which there are no innocents, when suicide is considered a
rational course of action not to improve anything but to merely
destroy, and when there are apparently so many eager to kill with more
being trained each day. Perhaps they don't act and speak for the
majority, but their actions go unremarked and unpunished within the
community. The larger community gives tacit approval by inertia.

With all the oil money in the Islamic nations, why are there still
refugee camps? Why are there so few schools for the general populace?

To be sure, many of the ideas in the Quran are different than the
behavior of the extremists, but believers would seem to have an
obligation to the belief to right these obvious wrongs. Timothy McVey
was found, arrested, tried, jailed and executed for his part in the
Oklahoma City bombing. Others are right behind him for their parts in
the whole situation. I don't see that sort of activity in the Islamic
nations. The Saudis are finally angry enough to make gestures against
terrorists in the face of the stunning irony of their support of the
groups all these years.

The extremists have government support and shelter in too many
countries. These are governments ostensibly established under Islamic
law. They observe the laws of tooth and claw, not civilization. The
further irony is that civilization as we know it began in the Tigris
and Euphrates valleys, Iraq, and spread through the middle east to the
rest of the western world. They have forgotten their roots and their
central beliefs. Education and thinking have been the worst casualties
in this centuries-long decline. Islam appears to be in eclipse except
as a breeding ground for ignorance, destruction, and passivity against
evil. Where are the builders? Where are the great thinkers? Where are
the creators of a better world? Where are the visionaries?

Pastorio

PENMART01 wrote:

> >Paul Satem wrote:
> >
> >Islam teaches us peace and respect for thy fellow man - regardless of
> >colour, race or belief.
>
> Yeah, primarily amongst the most vile of criminals; to wit the successful
rate
> of proselytization in US penitentiaries... there ain't a moslem alive the
world
> would be better off they were dead... may the force of terminal illnesses
shine
> brightly upon all moslems (a scourge on the planet).


Yup, Sheldon you are spot - on.

--
Best
Greg

Bob wrote:

> Paula Drennan wrote:
>
> > asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out
I
> > have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
that
> > muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
the
> > word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
>
> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
> the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
>
> The group that took down the World Trade Center met in mosques with
> clerics who obviously supported them. It's rather difficult looking in
> from the outside at Islam to accept that it's essentially a peaceful
> belief set when there can be a price put on a writer's head for
> publishing things clerics don't like, when there can be the idea of a
> holy war in which there are no innocents, when suicide is considered a
> rational course of action not to improve anything but to merely
> destroy, and when there are apparently so many eager to kill with more
> being trained each day. Perhaps they don't act and speak for the
> majority, but their actions go unremarked and unpunished within the
> community. The larger community gives tacit approval by inertia.
>
> With all the oil money in the Islamic nations, why are there still
> refugee camps? Why are there so few schools for the general populace?
>
> To be sure, many of the ideas in the Quran are different than the
> behavior of the extremists, but believers would seem to have an
> obligation to the belief to right these obvious wrongs. Timothy McVey
> was found, arrested, tried, jailed and executed for his part in the
> Oklahoma City bombing. Others are right behind him for their parts in
> the whole situation. I don't see that sort of activity in the Islamic
> nations. The Saudis are finally angry enough to make gestures against
> terrorists in the face of the stunning irony of their support of the
> groups all these years.
>
> The extremists have government support and shelter in too many
> countries. These are governments ostensibly established under Islamic
> law. They observe the laws of tooth and claw, not civilization. The
> further irony is that civilization as we know it began in the Tigris
> and Euphrates valleys, Iraq, and spread through the middle east to the
> rest of the western world. They have forgotten their roots and their
> central beliefs. Education and thinking have been the worst casualties
> in this centuries-long decline. Islam appears to be in eclipse except
> as a breeding ground for ignorance, destruction, and passivity against
> evil. Where are the builders? Where are the great thinkers? Where are
> the creators of a better world? Where are the visionaries?
>


*Excellent* - couldn't snip a word.

--
Best
Greg

Paula Drennan wrote:

> asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out I
> have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
that
> muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
the
> word of Allah to rationalize hatred.


Why don't you stick a rag in it, Ms. Mohammed....

--
Best
Greg

>"Gregory Morrow"
>
>>Bob wrote:
>> > Paula Drennan wrote:
>> >
>> > asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out
>I
>> > have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
>that
>> > muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
>the
>> > word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
>>
>> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
>> the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
>>
>> The group that took down the World Trade Center met in mosques with
>> clerics who obviously supported them. It's rather difficult looking in
>> from the outside at Islam to accept that it's essentially a peaceful
>> belief set when there can be a price put on a writer's head for
>> publishing things clerics don't like, when there can be the idea of a
>> holy war in which there are no innocents, when suicide is considered a
>> rational course of action not to improve anything but to merely
>> destroy, and when there are apparently so many eager to kill with more
>> being trained each day. Perhaps they don't act and speak for the
>> majority, but their actions go unremarked and unpunished within the
>> community. The larger community gives tacit approval by inertia.
>>
>> With all the oil money in the Islamic nations, why are there still
>> refugee camps? Why are there so few schools for the general populace?
>>
>> To be sure, many of the ideas in the Quran are different than the
>> behavior of the extremists, but believers would seem to have an
>> obligation to the belief to right these obvious wrongs. Timothy McVey
>> was found, arrested, tried, jailed and executed for his part in the
>> Oklahoma City bombing. Others are right behind him for their parts in
>> the whole situation. I don't see that sort of activity in the Islamic
>> nations. The Saudis are finally angry enough to make gestures against
>> terrorists in the face of the stunning irony of their support of the
>> groups all these years.
>>
>> The extremists have government support and shelter in too many
>> countries. These are governments ostensibly established under Islamic
>> law. They observe the laws of tooth and claw, not civilization. The
>> further irony is that civilization as we know it began in the Tigris
>> and Euphrates valleys, Iraq, and spread through the middle east to the
>> rest of the western world. They have forgotten their roots and their
>> central beliefs. Education and thinking have been the worst casualties
>> in this centuries-long decline. Islam appears to be in eclipse except
>> as a breeding ground for ignorance, destruction, and passivity against
>> evil. Where are the builders? Where are the great thinkers? Where are
>> the creators of a better world? Where are the visionaries?
>>
>
>
>*Excellent* - couldn't snip a word.

I said essentially the same thing with a 1000 woids less.



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
> Paula Drennan wrote:
>
> > asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out
I
> > have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
that
> > muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
the
> > word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
>
> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
> the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
>
> The group that took down the World Trade Center met in mosques with
> clerics who obviously supported them. It's rather difficult looking in
> from the outside at Islam to accept that it's essentially a peaceful
> belief set when there can be a price put on a writer's head for
> publishing things clerics don't like, when there can be the idea of a
> holy war in which there are no innocents, when suicide is considered a
> rational course of action not to improve anything but to merely
> destroy, and when there are apparently so many eager to kill with more
> being trained each day. Perhaps they don't act and speak for the
> majority, but their actions go unremarked and unpunished within the
> community. The larger community gives tacit approval by inertia.
>
> With all the oil money in the Islamic nations, why are there still
> refugee camps? Why are there so few schools for the general populace?
>
> To be sure, many of the ideas in the Quran are different than the
> behavior of the extremists, but believers would seem to have an
> obligation to the belief to right these obvious wrongs. Timothy McVey
> was found, arrested, tried, jailed and executed for his part in the
> Oklahoma City bombing. Others are right behind him for their parts in
> the whole situation. I don't see that sort of activity in the Islamic
> nations. The Saudis are finally angry enough to make gestures against
> terrorists in the face of the stunning irony of their support of the
> groups all these years.
>
> The extremists have government support and shelter in too many
> countries. These are governments ostensibly established under Islamic
> law. They observe the laws of tooth and claw, not civilization. The
> further irony is that civilization as we know it began in the Tigris
> and Euphrates valleys, Iraq, and spread through the middle east to the
> rest of the western world. They have forgotten their roots and their
> central beliefs. Education and thinking have been the worst casualties
> in this centuries-long decline. Islam appears to be in eclipse except
> as a breeding ground for ignorance, destruction, and passivity against
> evil. Where are the builders? Where are the great thinkers? Where are
> the creators of a better world? Where are the visionaries?
>
> Pastorio
>


I'm sure the visionaries and such exist, but that isn't NEWS. The media is
probably to blame for that.
It just doesn't seem feasible to have groups that have no other agenda than
to kill Americans and their supporters-no other agenda like civilization,
economy, peace amongst themselves-be it government based on religion,
democracy, socialism, whatever. It seems they don't wish to govern
themselves.

Sometimes I wonder if the Chinese had the best idea; build a wall
surrounding the country and shut everyone else out.

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
> Paula Drennan wrote:
>
> > asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out
I
> > have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
that
> > muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
the
> > word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
>
> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
> the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
>

How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
domestically focused. We don't even get a balanced view of what people
think in this country let alone what people are doing in other countries.
By the same token, I don't see any action and little comment in churches in
this country when some Christian fundamentalist kills an abortion clinic
worker or blows up a building. Where's the Pope when that happen? In fact,
our resident Christian fundamentalists, Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell use
the 9/11 tragedy to demonize the ACLU, feminists, gays, and abortion
providers. This is no different than what you are condemning, in my opinion.

"Kswck" > wrote in message
et...
>
> Sometimes I wonder if the Chinese had the best idea; build a wall
> surrounding the country and shut everyone else out.


I didn't know that Pat Buchannan was Chinese!

Vox Humana wrote:
> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Paula Drennan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out
>
> I
>
>>>have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
>
> that
>
>>>muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
>
> the
>
>>>word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
>>
>>I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
>>the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
>>
>
>
> How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> domestically focused. We don't even get a balanced view of what people
> think in this country let alone what people are doing in other countries.
> By the same token, I don't see any action and little comment in churches in
> this country when some Christian fundamentalist kills an abortion clinic
> worker or blows up a building. Where's the Pope when that happen? In fact,
> our resident Christian fundamentalists, Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell use
> the 9/11 tragedy to demonize the ACLU, feminists, gays, and abortion
> providers. This is no different than what you are condemning, in my opinion.
>
>

Apparently it will require someone being burnt at the stake or boiled in
oil in order to bring this thread on-topic.

"Scotland Yard Department of Tire Mischief"
> wrote in message
...
> Vox Humana wrote:
> > "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Paula Drennan wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go
out
> >
> > I
> >
> >>>have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
> >
> > that
> >
> >>>muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
> >
> > the
> >
> >>>word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
> >>
> >>I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
> >>the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
> >>
> >
> >
> > How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> > domestically focused. We don't even get a balanced view of what people
> > think in this country let alone what people are doing in other
countries.
> > By the same token, I don't see any action and little comment in churches
in
> > this country when some Christian fundamentalist kills an abortion clinic
> > worker or blows up a building. Where's the Pope when that happen? In
fact,
> > our resident Christian fundamentalists, Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell
use
> > the 9/11 tragedy to demonize the ACLU, feminists, gays, and abortion
> > providers. This is no different than what you are condemning, in my
opinion.
> >
> >
>
> Apparently it will require someone being burnt at the stake or boiled in
> oil in order to bring this thread on-topic.

Let it be Pat or Jerry then.

>From: "Gregory Morrow"

>Moslems are vermin, an absolutely *useless* bunch of people..

--
Best
Greg

If this you at your best, I'd hate to see a day when you're feeling *less*
kind.

Your hatred reminds me of Tom Lehrer's preface to his song, "National
Brotherhood Week."






E. P.

Vox Humana wrote:

> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Paula Drennan wrote:
>>
>>> asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day
>>> i go out I have to face the stares and cruel words of people
>>> who don't understand that muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we
>>> are not all hell bent on misusing the word of Allah to
>>> rationalize hatred.

>> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action
>> in the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their
>> acts.

> How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> domestically focused.

This is simply a silly thing to say. Single-minded...? As though
there's some sort of conspiracy to only present one unified vision
across all media. I'm part of the media and I've never been told what
to say or not say, what to write or not write. Media companies are all
run by conservative, hard-assed business people. The country is
decidedly conservative and all the whining about liberal media is pure
crap. Those business people are giving the conservative public what
they want. And a bit more.

Limbaugh is media. Hannity is media. O'Reilly is media. Liddy
is media. They haven't gleefully reported any such events. NPR hasn't
reported any such events. Pacifica radio hasn't reported any such
events. The networks haven't. CNN hasn't. Figaro hasn't. Stern hasn't.
Al Jazeera hasn't. Even wackjob Michael Savage hasn't reported action
in the Islamic community. The Christian Science Monitor hasn't. Paris
Match hasn't. What media is single-minded? How could any significant
events in the Islamic community condemning and taking steps against
terrorists not be front-page news? It would be trumpeted.

Have you missed the coverage of Iraq? Afghanistan? North Korea?
Indonesia? The positions of the Europeans about our wars?

> We don't even get a balanced view of what people think in this
> country let alone what people are doing in other countries.

Puhleeze. *YOU* don't get a picture. Its out there if you want it.
Nice vague statements so far about single-minded media and balance and
whatever else. But the point has whizzed past you.

> By the same token, I don't see any action and little comment in
> churches in this country when some Christian fundamentalist kills
> an abortion clinic worker or blows up a building.

There's a single, overwhelming difference in our culture, and one I'm
thankful for every day. Our government isn't run according to
religious principles, so those criminals are pursued. As for what you
don't see in churches, the next day in Oklahoma city there were
dozens of religious groups offering counseling, and support to the
afflicted. And if you don't think there were prayer vigils for the
people, I don't know where you were then. At Ground Zero, I saw
literally hundreds of people who were there with their religious
organizations to try to make life easier for the needy, emotionally
and economically. You want action? Look on the church signboards as
you drive past. Better yet, go inside and see if there's anything you
can do to help. The Salvation Army is at the scene of every disaster
that ever happens with food, clothing and people to work hard.

I don't know what church you attend, and it doesn't really matter. If
you didn't hear anyone speaking out against the crimes at abortion
clinics, you're in the wrong church. I live in the bible belt where
abortion is generally deplored. But Eric Rudolph was the subject of a
lot of airtime and general discussion around here. And it was
virtually unanimous in strong condemnation.

> Where's the Pope when that happen? In fact, our resident Christian
> fundamentalists, Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell use the 9/11
> tragedy to demonize the ACLU, feminists, gays, and abortion
> providers. This is no different than what you are condemning, in my
> opinion.

Of course it's different. The ranting of isolated quacks is hardly the
tacit support of an entire culture. And, more to the point, even they
don't cheer at the deaths of many. They don't create havens for the
murderers. They don't marshall armies to do destruction. They don't
collect money for havoc. They're all mouth with small support away
from the goobers in their churches. I will agree that their views are
just as nuts as any fundamentalist's. But they're solitary figures
largely held in low esteem for their extremity, not one of many
thousands of mullahs and imams who can create a Taliban or an Iran.

Pastorio

(Paul Satem) wrote in message om>...
> It is very unfortunate that the whole Al Qaeda / Iraq crisis has
> turned up the heat in the Muslim vs non-Muslim situation.
>
> For the benefit of those that might not already know it ...
>
> There are several hundred million Muslims in this World. Only a
> fraction are fundamentalists ... and only a very small fraction of all
> fundamentalists are extremists .... and only a very small fraction of
> extremists are terrorists.

Yeah, all the condemnation of the "very small fraction" by the
remaining (presumably very large) fraction is really deafening, isn't it?

Tony Lew wrote:

> (Paul Satem) wrote in message om>...
>
>>It is very unfortunate that the whole Al Qaeda / Iraq crisis has
>>turned up the heat in the Muslim vs non-Muslim situation.
>>
>>For the benefit of those that might not already know it ...
>>
>>There are several hundred million Muslims in this World. Only a
>>fraction are fundamentalists ... and only a very small fraction of all
>>fundamentalists are extremists .... and only a very small fraction of
>>extremists are terrorists.
>
>
> Yeah, all the condemnation of the "very small fraction" by the
> remaining (presumably very large) fraction is really deafening, isn't it?

I was particularly impressed with the moral outcry when one of
their clerics, who also happened to run a country BTW, declared a death
sentence against an author who wrote a book he disagreed with. The
silence was deafening. I guess that's normal behavior in the Muslim
world.

To put it in perspective, can you imagine the Pope declaring
it the duty of all catholics to murder an author?

Islam is not "just like any other religion", I'm sorry. They have
a PR problem for good reason.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >> Paula Drennan wrote:
> >>
> >>> asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day
> >>> i go out I have to face the stares and cruel words of people
> >>> who don't understand that muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we
> >>> are not all hell bent on misusing the word of Allah to
> >>> rationalize hatred.
>
> >> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action
> >> in the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their
> >> acts.
>
> > How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> > domestically focused.
>
> This is simply a silly thing to say. Single-minded...? As though
> there's some sort of conspiracy to only present one unified vision
> across all media. I'm part of the media and I've never been told what
> to say or not say, what to write or not write.

I didn't say it was a conspiracy. It just happens that all media covers the
same stories with about the same perspective. Limbaugh, Fox News, CNN, and
so on all cover the same stories. There are subtle difference, to be sure.
Mostly, news outlets report what the government tells them. There doesn't
seem to be much questioning going on. I think that accounts for a lot of
the similarities. Bush says he is a compassionate conservative. That's how
he is known in the media. Bush goes to the ranch and cuts brush. The media
reports that he is on "the ranch." It is never disclosed that the "ranch"
is a luxury home without any livestock or crops. The administration is
notorious for threatening loss of "access" for anyone who reports
unflattering stories. So I believe that no one tells you what to report. I
also know that few reporters have the power to decide what to publish.
While we were involved in two wars, one of which was prosecuted based on
false allegations, virtually every media outlet spend endless hours on the
Ben and JayLo story. Now all we hear is the Laci Peterson story. In my
opinion there is something wrong with that picture. I would rather think it
was a conspiracy because the alternative is more grim. It means that the
media is incompetent. Of course, conspiracy theorist could point to what
happened to the Dixie Chick when they spoke out. One of the largest media
outlets (radio, TV stations, billboards, transit advertising, concerts, show
prep service) yanked them from the play list. Then after Howard Stern
started to criticize Bush, the same thing happed to him.

"Vox Humana" > wrote in message >. ..
> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Paula Drennan wrote:
> >
> > > asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out
> I
> > > have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
> that
> > > muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
> the
> > > word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
> >
> > I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
> > the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
> >
>
> How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> domestically focused.

Are you kidding? This is the same media that decided to stop showing
footage of the attack on the WTC after the first few days so as not
to inflame anti-Muslim feeling. I'm sure if there were a lot of
condemnation of the terrorists among Muslims, the media wouldn't
let you stop hearing about it.


> We don't even get a balanced view of what people
> think in this country let alone what people are doing in other countries.
> By the same token, I don't see any action and little comment in churches in
> this country when some Christian fundamentalist kills an abortion clinic
> worker or blows up a building. Where's the Pope when that happen? In fact,
> our resident Christian fundamentalists, Pat Roberson and Jerry Fallwell use
> the 9/11 tragedy to demonize the ACLU, feminists, gays, and abortion
> providers. This is no different than what you are condemning, in my opinion.

Paul Satem > wrote:
>It is very unfortunate that the whole Al Qaeda / Iraq crisis has
>turned up the heat in the Muslim vs non-Muslim situation.

It's not just unfortunate.

It is PRECISELY the goal of al Quaeda.

They picked the perfect country to attack if they wanted
a jingoistic, knee-jerk, self-righteous, bristling,
antagonistic, stupid response on which to build their
political fear-based recruiting campaign.

--Blair
"Stop voting for these idiots."

Reg > wrote in
news
> To put it in perspective, can you imagine the Pope declaring
> it the duty of all catholics to murder an author?
>
> Islam is not "just like any other religion", I'm sorry. They have
> a PR problem for good reason.
>
>

Or like the Pope ignoring the Jewish problem during WWII?

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on nothing but food
and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

hahabogus wrote:

> Reg > wrote in
> news >
>
>>To put it in perspective, can you imagine the Pope declaring
>>it the duty of all catholics to murder an author?
>>
>>Islam is not "just like any other religion", I'm sorry. They have
>>a PR problem for good reason.
>>
>
> Or like the Pope ignoring the Jewish problem during WWII?
>

You're thoroughly reinforcing my point, unintentionally no doubt.

John Paul II made a state visit to Israel and apologized for the
conduct you're referring to. In other words, the Catholic Church
and it's institutions are capable of change, thay have shown at least
some ability to reform. It's not that I'm any fan of the Catholic
church. The point is you shouldn't expect the Vatican to be
advocating terrorism anytime soon.

Unlike Islamic leaders.

And I wouldn't expect any reform movements from within Islam
anytime soon given that they openly advocate murdering writers.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Reg > wrote in
:

> hahabogus wrote:
>
>> Reg > wrote in
>> news >>
>>
>>>To put it in perspective, can you imagine the Pope declaring
>>>it the duty of all catholics to murder an author?
>>>
>>>Islam is not "just like any other religion", I'm sorry. They have
>>>a PR problem for good reason.
>>>
>>
>> Or like the Pope ignoring the Jewish problem during WWII?
>>
>
> You're thoroughly reinforcing my point, unintentionally no doubt.
>
> John Paul II made a state visit to Israel and apologized for the
> conduct you're referring to. In other words, the Catholic Church
> and it's institutions are capable of change, thay have shown at least
> some ability to reform. It's not that I'm any fan of the Catholic
> church. The point is you shouldn't expect the Vatican to be
> advocating terrorism anytime soon.
>
> Unlike Islamic leaders.
>
> And I wouldn't expect any reform movements from within Islam
> anytime soon given that they openly advocate murdering writers.
>

Actually It shows the Pope can be embarassed. Did the church apologize for
the witch hunts?

--
Once during Prohibition I was forced to live for days on nothing but food
and water.
--------
FIELDS, W. C.

"Reg" > wrote in message
...
> hahabogus wrote:
>
> > Reg > wrote in
> > news > >
> >
> >>To put it in perspective, can you imagine the Pope declaring
> >>it the duty of all catholics to murder an author?
> >>
> >>Islam is not "just like any other religion", I'm sorry. They have
> >>a PR problem for good reason.
> >>
> >
> > Or like the Pope ignoring the Jewish problem during WWII?
> >
>
> You're thoroughly reinforcing my point, unintentionally no doubt.
>
> John Paul II made a state visit to Israel and apologized for the
> conduct you're referring to. In other words, the Catholic Church
> and it's institutions are capable of change, thay have shown at least
> some ability to reform. It's not that I'm any fan of the Catholic
> church. The point is you shouldn't expect the Vatican to be
> advocating terrorism anytime soon.
>
> Unlike Islamic leaders.
>
> And I wouldn't expect any reform movements from within Islam
> anytime soon given that they openly advocate murdering writers.
>

To paraphrase Trent Lott, "Maybe if the Pope apologized for the Crusades, we
wouldn't have had all these problems for all these years."

Tony Lew wrote:
>
> "Vox Humana" > wrote in message >. ..

> >
> > How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> > domestically focused.
>
> Are you kidding? This is the same media that decided to stop showing
> footage of the attack on the WTC after the first few days so as not
> to inflame anti-Muslim feeling. I'm sure if there were a lot of
> condemnation of the terrorists among Muslims, the media wouldn't
> let you stop hearing about it.
>


Huh? Do you mean the same footage we saw 10,000 times in the
first week and so often thereafter that it is permanently
burned into the retinas of most Americans? The footage that
was used as a rationale to invade Iraq? What else would
you have it continued to excuse?

gloria p

"Puester" > wrote in message
...
> Tony Lew wrote:
> >
> > "Vox Humana" > wrote in message
>. ..
>
> > >
> > > How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> > > domestically focused.
> >
> > Are you kidding? This is the same media that decided to stop showing
> > footage of the attack on the WTC after the first few days so as not
> > to inflame anti-Muslim feeling. I'm sure if there were a lot of
> > condemnation of the terrorists among Muslims, the media wouldn't
> > let you stop hearing about it.
> >
>
>
> Huh? Do you mean the same footage we saw 10,000 times in the
> first week and so often thereafter that it is permanently
> burned into the retinas of most Americans? The footage that
> was used as a rationale to invade Iraq? What else would
> you have it continued to excuse?
>

I question the premise of the argument. That is, even if you accept that
the press stopped showing the footage, was it to quell anti-Islamic
feelings?

Reg > wrote in message m>...
> Tony Lew wrote:
>
> > (Paul Satem) wrote in message om>...
> >
> >>It is very unfortunate that the whole Al Qaeda / Iraq crisis has
> >>turned up the heat in the Muslim vs non-Muslim situation.
> >>
> >>For the benefit of those that might not already know it ...
> >>
> >>There are several hundred million Muslims in this World. Only a
> >>fraction are fundamentalists ... and only a very small fraction of all
> >>fundamentalists are extremists .... and only a very small fraction of
> >>extremists are terrorists.
> >
> >
> > Yeah, all the condemnation of the "very small fraction" by the
> > remaining (presumably very large) fraction is really deafening, isn't it?
>
> I was particularly impressed with the moral outcry when one of
> their clerics, who also happened to run a country BTW, declared a death
> sentence against an author who wrote a book he disagreed with. The
> silence was deafening.

Wrong. There was no silence. There was a great deal of noise - the
noise of widespread support of the "fatwa". The British in particular
were shocked at how their "assimilated" Muslim minority supported it.


> I guess that's normal behavior in the Muslim
> world.
>
> To put it in perspective, can you imagine the Pope declaring
> it the duty of all catholics to murder an author?
>
> Islam is not "just like any other religion", I'm sorry. They have
> a PR problem for good reason.

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
> Paula Drennan wrote:
>
> > asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go out
I
> > have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't understand
that
> > muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on misusing
the
> > word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
>
> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
> the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
>
> The group that took down the World Trade Center met in mosques with
> clerics who obviously supported them. It's rather difficult looking in
> from the outside at Islam to accept that it's essentially a peaceful
> belief set when there can be a price put on a writer's head for
> publishing things clerics don't like, when there can be the idea of a
> holy war in which there are no innocents, when suicide is considered a
> rational course of action not to improve anything but to merely
> destroy, and when there are apparently so many eager to kill with more
> being trained each day. Perhaps they don't act and speak for the
> majority, but their actions go unremarked and unpunished within the
> community. The larger community gives tacit approval by inertia.
>
> With all the oil money in the Islamic nations, why are there still
> refugee camps? Why are there so few schools for the general populace?
>
> To be sure, many of the ideas in the Quran are different than the
> behavior of the extremists, but believers would seem to have an
> obligation to the belief to right these obvious wrongs. Timothy McVey
> was found, arrested, tried, jailed and executed for his part in the
> Oklahoma City bombing. Others are right behind him for their parts in
> the whole situation. I don't see that sort of activity in the Islamic
> nations. The Saudis are finally angry enough to make gestures against
> terrorists in the face of the stunning irony of their support of the
> groups all these years.
>
> The extremists have government support and shelter in too many
> countries. These are governments ostensibly established under Islamic
> law. They observe the laws of tooth and claw, not civilization. The
> further irony is that civilization as we know it began in the Tigris
> and Euphrates valleys, Iraq, and spread through the middle east to the
> rest of the western world. They have forgotten their roots and their
> central beliefs. Education and thinking have been the worst casualties
> in this centuries-long decline. Islam appears to be in eclipse except
> as a breeding ground for ignorance, destruction, and passivity against
> evil. Where are the builders? Where are the great thinkers? Where are
> the creators of a better world? Where are the visionaries?
>
> Pastorio

Well said, I (and my friends when discussing this) am in complete agreement.

hahabogus wrote:

> Reg > wrote in
> :
>>You're thoroughly reinforcing my point, unintentionally no doubt.
>>
>>John Paul II made a state visit to Israel and apologized for the
>>conduct you're referring to. In other words, the Catholic Church
>>and it's institutions are capable of change, thay have shown at least
>>some ability to reform. It's not that I'm any fan of the Catholic
>>church. The point is you shouldn't expect the Vatican to be
>>advocating terrorism anytime soon.
>>
>>Unlike Islamic leaders.
>>
>>And I wouldn't expect any reform movements from within Islam
>>anytime soon given that they openly advocate murdering writers.
>>
>
> Actually It shows the Pope can be embarassed. Did the church apologize for
> the witch hunts?

Heh. And what kind of sauce will you be serving with your Red Herring?

I don't care who apologizes for what. When people advocate murdering
writers they disgrace themselves and their religion. Islamic leaders
have that unique distinction.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
. ..
> hahabogus wrote:
>
> > Reg > wrote in
> > :
> >>You're thoroughly reinforcing my point, unintentionally no doubt.
> >>
> >>John Paul II made a state visit to Israel and apologized for the
> >>conduct you're referring to. In other words, the Catholic Church
> >>and it's institutions are capable of change, thay have shown at least
> >>some ability to reform. It's not that I'm any fan of the Catholic
> >>church. The point is you shouldn't expect the Vatican to be
> >>advocating terrorism anytime soon.
> >>
> >>Unlike Islamic leaders.
> >>
> >>And I wouldn't expect any reform movements from within Islam
> >>anytime soon given that they openly advocate murdering writers.
> >>
> >
> > Actually It shows the Pope can be embarassed. Did the church apologize
for
> > the witch hunts?
>
> Heh. And what kind of sauce will you be serving with your Red Herring?
>
> I don't care who apologizes for what. When people advocate murdering
> writers they disgrace themselves and their religion. Islamic leaders
> have that unique distinction.

I think that Bush has disgraced Christians.

Vox Humana wrote:

> I think that Bush has disgraced Christians.

Agreed.

ObFood: Inspired in part by your comments in another group, the
monster cake I'm making this weekend will have rolled fondant icing.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
. ..
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > I think that Bush has disgraced Christians.
>
> Agreed.
>
> ObFood: Inspired in part by your comments in another group, the
> monster cake I'm making this weekend will have rolled fondant icing.
>

Is it a monster cake or a monster-shaped cake?

Why are yoose all wasting thousands of woids rationalizing... MOSLEMS ARE EVIL
MONSTERS... MOSLEMS ARE *NOT* HUMAN - MOSLEMS ARE *NOT* ANIMALS. MOSLEMS ARE
*MONSTERS*, _EVIL MONSTERS_[PERIOD]

I for one have no qualms grinding moslems in my meat grinder and dumping their
monsterous meat into a pond filed with snake eating bass... however, probably
better to use the friggin' douche bags to slop the hogs... that's all a moslem
is good for, pig roughage.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

Vox Humana wrote:

> Is it a monster cake or a monster-shaped cake?
>
>

It's a reference to it's egregious size... 12 inch round layers.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
. ..
> Vox Humana wrote:
>
> > Is it a monster cake or a monster-shaped cake?
> >
> >
>
> It's a reference to it's egregious size... 12 inch round layers.
>

I think the perfect size cake is 10 inches. It is still easy to handle and
bakes without much complication. Once you get up to 12 inches, things get
more complex. Getting the fondant transferred to the cake without wrinkles
or bubbles is much harder.

> "Vox Humana"
>
>I think the perfect size is 10 inches.

Well, today is your lucky day...



---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

Vox Humana wrote:

> I think the perfect size cake is 10 inches. It is still easy to handle and
> bakes without much complication. Once you get up to 12 inches, things get
> more complex. Getting the fondant transferred to the cake without wrinkles
> or bubbles is much harder.

Exactly. The difficulty in decorating pretty much doubles
with every inch in diameter. This should be fun.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

Sheldon wrote:

> >"Gregory Morrow"
> >
> >>Bob wrote:
> >> > Paula Drennan wrote:
> >> >
> >> > asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day i go
out
> >I
> >> > have to face the stares and cruel words of people who don't
understand
> >that
> >> > muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we are not all hell bent on
misusing
> >the
> >> > word of Allah to rationalize hatred.
> >>
> >> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action in
> >> the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their acts.
> >>
> >> The group that took down the World Trade Center met in mosques with
> >> clerics who obviously supported them. It's rather difficult looking in
> >> from the outside at Islam to accept that it's essentially a peaceful
> >> belief set when there can be a price put on a writer's head for
> >> publishing things clerics don't like, when there can be the idea of a
> >> holy war in which there are no innocents, when suicide is considered a
> >> rational course of action not to improve anything but to merely
> >> destroy, and when there are apparently so many eager to kill with more
> >> being trained each day. Perhaps they don't act and speak for the
> >> majority, but their actions go unremarked and unpunished within the
> >> community. The larger community gives tacit approval by inertia.
> >>
> >> With all the oil money in the Islamic nations, why are there still
> >> refugee camps? Why are there so few schools for the general populace?
> >>
> >> To be sure, many of the ideas in the Quran are different than the
> >> behavior of the extremists, but believers would seem to have an
> >> obligation to the belief to right these obvious wrongs. Timothy McVey
> >> was found, arrested, tried, jailed and executed for his part in the
> >> Oklahoma City bombing. Others are right behind him for their parts in
> >> the whole situation. I don't see that sort of activity in the Islamic
> >> nations. The Saudis are finally angry enough to make gestures against
> >> terrorists in the face of the stunning irony of their support of the
> >> groups all these years.
> >>
> >> The extremists have government support and shelter in too many
> >> countries. These are governments ostensibly established under Islamic
> >> law. They observe the laws of tooth and claw, not civilization. The
> >> further irony is that civilization as we know it began in the Tigris
> >> and Euphrates valleys, Iraq, and spread through the middle east to the
> >> rest of the western world. They have forgotten their roots and their
> >> central beliefs. Education and thinking have been the worst casualties
> >> in this centuries-long decline. Islam appears to be in eclipse except
> >> as a breeding ground for ignorance, destruction, and passivity against
> >> evil. Where are the builders? Where are the great thinkers? Where are
> >> the creators of a better world? Where are the visionaries?
> >>
> >
> >
> >*Excellent* - couldn't snip a word.
>
> I said essentially the same thing with a 1000 woids less.


And more colorfully might I add ;-)

--
Best
Greg

Vox Humana wrote:

> "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Vox Humana wrote:
> >
> > > "Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > >> Paula Drennan wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> asalamualaikum, Thank you for your defense of Islam. Every day
> > >>> i go out I have to face the stares and cruel words of people
> > >>> who don't understand that muslims are not all like al-qaeda, we
> > >>> are not all hell bent on misusing the word of Allah to
> > >>> rationalize hatred.
> >
> > >> I would observe that there is little condemnation and less action
> > >> in the Islamic community against the fundamentalists and their
> > >> acts.
> >
> > > How could one know? The media in this country is single minded and
> > > domestically focused.
> >
> > This is simply a silly thing to say. Single-minded...? As though
> > there's some sort of conspiracy to only present one unified vision
> > across all media. I'm part of the media and I've never been told what
> > to say or not say, what to write or not write.
>
> I didn't say it was a conspiracy. It just happens that all media covers
the
> same stories with about the same perspective. Limbaugh, Fox News, CNN,
and
> so on all cover the same stories. There are subtle difference, to be
sure.
> Mostly, news outlets report what the government tells them. There doesn't
> seem to be much questioning going on. I think that accounts for a lot of
> the similarities. Bush says he is a compassionate conservative. That's
how
> he is known in the media. Bush goes to the ranch and cuts brush. The
media
> reports that he is on "the ranch." It is never disclosed that the "ranch"
> is a luxury home without any livestock or crops. The administration is
> notorious for threatening loss of "access" for anyone who reports
> unflattering stories. So I believe that no one tells you what to report.
I
> also know that few reporters have the power to decide what to publish.
> While we were involved in two wars, one of which was prosecuted based on
> false allegations, virtually every media outlet spend endless hours on the
> Ben and JayLo story. Now all we hear is the Laci Peterson story. In my
> opinion there is something wrong with that picture. I would rather think
it
> was a conspiracy because the alternative is more grim. It means that the
> media is incompetent. Of course, conspiracy theorist could point to what
> happened to the Dixie Chick when they spoke out. One of the largest media
> outlets (radio, TV stations, billboards, transit advertising, concerts,
show
> prep service) yanked them from the play list. Then after Howard Stern
> started to criticize Bush, the same thing happed to him.


But on the conservative side there is sometimes a shrill Doktor Laura
Schlessinger who gets her just desserts. Her show's rating are declining
(she's not even heard in major markets like NYC and Chicago), her teevee
show was a flop, and her books are a flash in the pan...oh and there was
that juicy contretemps a few years ago about those newdie lewdie pix that a
former paramour distributed to the press ;-)

And in Illinois the GOP candidate for US Senate had to drop out of the race
after his ex - wife told messy tales about him taking her to sex clubs and
such...in the vein of Newt and Henry Hyde The Humbug when they were going
after Clinton a few years back....

The praise - fest for Ronnie Reagan was pretty revolting, but much of it was
done by older news media figures who were recalling their Glory Daze in the
White House Press Pool...it's probably the last chance for many of them to
parade around their inflated self - importance before they slide into sheer
oblivion...I mean who is going to remember Sam Donaldson in ten years' time?
Besides which the vulgar spectacle had been choreographed down to the last
tear and wet hanky years ago. TV ratings for it were fairly low -
surprisingly so. Most people have enough sense to watch an Esther Williams
and Tom & Jerry musical or the most recent episode of _Law & Order_ if they
want to be entertained. Heck, the hoopla about the last episode of
_Friends_ dwarfed the Reagan funeral media circus in real life. Nobody had
popcorn parties to watch Ronnie's funeral....

People are just not real happy with Bush - even my Republican friends want
him turned out of office. Most intelligent folks don't parrot what the
media is saying about the "booming" economy and our "mission" in Iraq. They
*do* know that it's hard to find a decent job and that gas and milk are
expensive and that somebody they know (maybe even a loved one) has been away
in Iraq attending to our little "police action" for far too long a
time...or maybe even one of their loved ones has been killed or injured.

Except for a zealous few, most folks don't consider Rush and the rest of the
right - wing media zombies anything but entertainers....

I wonder if Kerry will turn the tables on the repugs and utter that famous
Reagan phrase, "Are you better off now than you were four years ago?" this
fall? He *has* to be straining at the bit to say it....

--
Best
Greg