hi,

when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor &
mmanage" the temp.

where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a digital
probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a 'slow braise'?

e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga & carrot quarters in
a wine braising liquid, inside a LeCresuet pot.

should the probe be placed:
(a) in the braising liquid?
(b) in the veal shank?
(c) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?

and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?

thanks,

richard

OpenMac > wrote:

> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor &
> mmanage" the temp.
>
> where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a digital
> probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a 'slow braise'?
>
> e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga & carrot quarters in
> a wine braising liquid, inside a LeCresuet pot.
>
> should the probe be placed:
> (a) in the braising liquid?

Yes, in the liquid... if you must...

> (b) in the veal shank?
> (c) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?
>
> and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?

Don't sweat it, I'd say. Braising is essentially simmering in a sealed
vessel. So, just check if it does barely simmer a few times, that's
all. As long as the food is surrounded by some watery liquid, the
temperature won't exceed boiling, anyway.

If you insist on sweating it, see, for example,
<http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-03article.html>.

Victor

>> should the probe be placed:
>> (a) in the braising liquid?
>
> Yes, in the liquid... if you must...

ok.

>
> Don't sweat it, I'd say. Braising is essentially simmering in a sealed
> vessel. So, just check if it does barely simmer a few times, that's
> all. As long as the food is surrounded by some watery liquid, the
> temperature won't exceed boiling, anyway.

so, the next question (argument?) is HOW MUCH liquid? ... i've
heard/read everything from "just a half inch deep" to "1/3 of the meat
should be submerged" to "barely covered" ...

>
> If you insist on sweating it, see, for example,
> <http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking/icooks/2-1-03article.html>.

This is an excellent site! speaks to the (former) cone-head in me ...

thx!

richard

"OpenMac" > wrote in message
news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspea keasynet...
> hi,
>
> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor &
> mmanage" the temp.
>
> where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a digital
> probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a 'slow braise'?
>
> e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga & carrot quarters in
> a wine braising liquid, inside a LeCresuet pot.
>
> should the probe be placed:
> (a) in the braising liquid?
> (b) in the veal shank?
> (c) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?
>
> and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?
>
> thanks,
>
> richard
>

Don't worry about the temp. The important thing is that the liquid be
bubbling slowly.


--
Peter Aitken

Remove the crap from my email address before using.

"OpenMac" > wrote in message
news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspea keasynet...
> hi,
>
> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor &
> mmanage" the temp.

I braise at 300F. I have never seen a recipe specify braising below 225F.

On 2004-07-02 16:57:49 -0700, "Vox Humana" > said:

>
> "OpenMac" > wrote in message
> news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspea keasynet...
>> hi,
>>
>> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
>> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor &
>> mmanage" the temp.
>
> I braise at 300F. I have never seen a recipe specify braising below 225F.

won't that have your liquid at a hearty, rolling boil?

if braising requires a simmering liquid, and simmering occurs in the
180-200 range (for low, med, high simmer ...), what's, then , going on
in your 300F braise?

OpenMac wrote:
> hi,
>
> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't reach/maintain
> a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor & mmanage" the temp.

Braising isn't done in an oven with a lower temp than that. What
recipe calls for temps below 225? If you have a recipe like that,
ditch it.

Get a decent cookbook and read about braising. Forget measuring temps,
forget precision here. This is one of the most forgiving methods of
cooking.

Pastorio


> where in the pot is best to measure the temperature with a digital
> probe, and what is the 'right' temperature for a 'slow braise'?
>
> e.g., a 3# veal shank, sitting on top of rutabaga & carrot quarters in a
> wine braising liquid, inside a LeCresuet pot.
>
> should the probe be placed:
> (a) in the braising liquid?
> (b) in the veal shank?
> (c) 'suspended' in mid-air in the pot?
>
> and, wherever's best, what are the 'right' temps?
>
> thanks,
>
> richard
>

> "Vox Humana"
>
>I braise at 300F.

That's not possible (at sea level water boils at 212dF) unless you use a super
duper pressure cooker and then you'd only cook whatever for about 4 minutes or
less Idiot.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

> OpenMac says:
>
>>"Vox Humana" said:
>>
>>>"OpenMac" wrote:
>>>
>>> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
>>> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor &
>>> mmanage" the temp.
>>
>> I braise at 300F. I have never seen a recipe specify braising below 225F.
>
>won't that have your liquid at a hearty, rolling boil?
>
>if braising requires a simmering liquid, and simmering occurs in the
>180-200 range (for low, med, high simmer ...), what's, then , going on
>in your 300F braise?

The moron uses a Super Duper pressure cooker.


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

> Braising isn't done in an oven with a lower temp than that. What recipe
> calls for temps below 225? If you have a recipe like that, ditch it.
>
> Get a decent cookbook and read about braising. Forget measuring temps,
> forget precision here. This is one of the most forgiving methods of
> cooking.
>
> Pastorio


you've apparently never had a whole beef shank slow-braised over a
low-simmer for 6-8 hours ... to each his own.

"OpenMac" > wrote in message
news:2004070217284316807%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasyne t...
> On 2004-07-02 16:57:49 -0700, "Vox Humana" > said:
>
> >
> > "OpenMac" > wrote in message
> > news:200407021456507713%OpenMacNoSpam@RemoveMEspea keasynet...
> >> hi,
> >>
> >> when slow braising on a stovetop (cuz my silly oven won't
> >> reach/maintain a stable temp below 225F ... ), I'd like to "monitor &
> >> mmanage" the temp.
> >
> > I braise at 300F. I have never seen a recipe specify braising below
225F.
>
> won't that have your liquid at a hearty, rolling boil?
>
> if braising requires a simmering liquid, and simmering occurs in the
> 180-200 range (for low, med, high simmer ...), what's, then , going on
> in your 300F braise?
>

You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is at the boiling
point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are just giving it a
nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature for braising.
Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier than what you
proposed.

> You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is at the boiling
> point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are just giving it a
> nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature for braising.
> Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier than what you
> proposed.

again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in the best
method for monitoring/controlling the temperature.

as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...

at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.


e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...03article.html

"To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must maintain an
important balance. Cooking temperatures must be high enough to kill
microorganisms, yet not so high that the meat toughens. Use a
thermometer to check the temperature of the surrounding stock and keep
it at a simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 °F/88 °C."

from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~ "med
simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by def'n, is boiling.

try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ... you'll start
seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...

richard

OpenMac wrote:
>> You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is at the
>> boiling point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you
>> are just giving it a nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty
>> common temperature for braising. Some people go to 325. Give it
>> a try, it will be lots easier than what you proposed.
>=20
> again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in the best
> method for monitoring/controlling the temperature.
>=20
> as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>=20
> at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>=20
> e.g.,
> http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...03article.html
>=20
> "To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must maintain an
> important balance. Cooking temperatures must be high enough to
> kill microorganisms, yet not so high that the meat toughens. Use a
> thermometer to check the temperature of the surrounding stock and
> keep it at a simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 =B0F/88 =B0C."

Yeah. I went to the site and read the brilliance there. They're not a=20
very good source. "Braise" is French and means "ember." The original=20
method was to bury the lidded cast iron pot in the embers on the=20
hearth. Those primitive cooks understood that the interior of the pot=20
would stay at or below boiling and didn't need any measurements to do=20
the right job..

They make this assertion: "Too much space between the ingredients and=20
the lid allows steam to condense and drip from the lid's underside=20
onto the ingredients, diluting the rich sauce."

They don't seem to grasp the notion that in their closed vessel, all=20
the liquid that's going to be involved is already in there. The steam=20
is the water from the liquid in the container. It comes up out of the=20
sauce and then drips back in. Good Dutch Oven lids have little nibs=20
that stick down into the pot to exactly drip the condensate back onto=20
the foods being cooked.

Their "science" lacks a certain, I dunno, science...

They can't seem to grasp that a closed container with water in it=20
won't exceed 212=B0F. They don't understand the way collagen works and=20
they have a flimsy grasp on what happens when proteins denature.=20
They're simply wrong about temperature effects on meats.

I love amateurs with degrees in Home Ec.

Clicking on their links get you to this dazzlement: " To keep the=20
tissues from drying during cooking, fish requires higher temperatures=20
and shorter cooking times than meat. A general rule of thumb for=20
cooking is 10 minutes per inch of thickness, but this varies according=20
to cooking method, heat intensity, and fish size. Use a cooking=20
thermometer to gauge doneness more precisely. Fish is cooked when a=20
thermometer (we recommend the slender digital kind) inserted into the=20
thickest part of the flesh reaches 140=B0 F."

Really? Flounder should be cooked at higher temps than beef? They=20
never heard of poaching? En papillote?

That "10 minutes" rule came from the Canadian Fisheries folks and=20
their rule is that it applies *irrespective* of cooking method and, to=20
my profound surprise, it works. You need to insert about 4-inches of=20
the stem of the thermo into food to get a decent reading, and then=20
it's an average over the length of the shaft. If you can't look at a=20
piece of fish and see when it's done, poke with your finger and see=20
when it's done, step away from the food.

> from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~ "med
> simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by def'n, is
> boiling.
>=20
> try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ... you'll start
> seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...

Actually, you'll see bubbles way before that. They begin to form well=20
below 140=B0F as air collects on the "seeds" on the sides and bottom of=20
the vessel.

But you keep missing the points. 1) In spite of what these two=20
non-cooks say on this web site, you don't need to monitor the=20
temperature inside the cooking vessel; the laws of physics do that for=20
you. 2) An attempt at constant monitoring of the temperature means=20
you're poking around into the process and losing vessel heat, which=20
needs to proceed essentially uninterrupted except for occasional=20
testing as you approach the end of the cook. 3) Cooking time isn't=20
very critical because once you get meat over about 180=B0F, not much=20
more will happen to it structurally until it gets to a boil and then=20
only after many hours.

You are sophisticating yourself into paralysis. You are making an=20
essentially simple process into an angst-ridden foolishness. Your=20
grandmother did this and took care of real life as well.

Pastorio

OpenMac wrote:

>> Braising isn't done in an oven with a lower temp than that. What
>> recipe calls for temps below 225? If you have a recipe like that,
>> ditch it.
>>
>> Get a decent cookbook and read about braising. Forget measuring temps,
>> forget precision here. This is one of the most forgiving methods of
>> cooking.
>>
>> Pastorio
>
> you've apparently never had a whole beef shank slow-braised over a
> low-simmer for 6-8 hours ... to each his own.

First, before you decide to come after a professional chef, at least
learn the correct terminology. Second, learn about the subject at
hand. Third, Read what's on the screen before typing crap. How your
crippled logic could possibly come up with as profoundly stupid a
thing to say as this is simply boggling. Perhaps it's stimulated by
your equally profound ignorance.

By definition, braising is a slow, moist cooking method which, also by
definition, is a forgiving way to cook. That means that timing isn't
so significant. That means that temperature can vary appreciably from
your listed temps, either as a constant or variably during the cook
and still do the right job. It means that the amount of liquid can
vary greatly and still get a good result. It means that stupid
blunders like the ones you're very likely to make won't ruin the dish.
Oh, braising is cooking *in* liquid, not *over* a low simmer. If you
meant something else, you sure didn't say it very well.

Beef shanks are properly cross-sectional cuts of beef leg bones, most
often forelegs, but they can also be cut from the end of the round
called the hindshank. Whole shanks are virtually never sold at retail.
Typically, they're cut into about 2-inch lengths with a ring of meat
surrounding the bone.

Your ignorance and inexperience is showing. Don't try to argue from
your scant knowledge, there are too many people who know better
reading along.

Parenthetically, I've had a whole sheep braised over a fire in a
hammered copper pot out in the desert. There wasn't a thermometer or
pseudo-scientist within a hundred miles. About every half-hour,
somebody lifted the lid and poked a knife into the meat. When it was
judged tender enough and smelled maddeningly succulent, we ate.
It was a splendid, primitive meal.

Pastorio

>from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~ "med
>simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by def'n, is boiling.
>
>try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ... you'll start
>seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F
>
>richard

That's true only with plain water... add food, thereby altering the
chemistry/viscosity, and you can flush your theoretical poopoo down the pipe...


---= BOYCOTT FRANCE (belgium) GERMANY--SPAIN =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
*********
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
Sheldon
````````````

"OpenMac" > wrote in message
news:2004070221334850073%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasyne t...
> > You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is at the
boiling
> > point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are just giving
it a
> > nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature for braising.
> > Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier than what
you
> > proposed.
>
> again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in the best
> method for monitoring/controlling the temperature.
>
> as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>
> at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>
>
> e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...03article.html
>
> "To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must maintain an
> important balance. Cooking temperatures must be high enough to kill
> microorganisms, yet not so high that the meat toughens. Use a
> thermometer to check the temperature of the surrounding stock and keep
> it at a simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 °F/88 °C."
>
> from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~ "med
> simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by def'n, is boiling.
>
> try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ... you'll start
> seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
>

I would then recommend that you get an array of thermocouples and connect
each one to an analog to digital converter. Connect the convert to a
multi-channel board that allows you to transfer the data to a computer. On
a separate I/) port, connect an interface device that is computable with the
electronic oven controller in you oven. Write a custom software package
that monitors the oven conditions and food temperature and keeps everything
within a few hundredths of a degree of your desired internal meat
temperature. Be sure to allow for the fact than most ovens vary as much as
25F +/- from the set temperature.

In lieu of that, set your oven temperature at 300F, put you food in a heavy
vessel with a tight fitting lid, and go away for three to four hours. Most
people consider braising to be a "door slammer" technique. In other words,
you slam the door and walk away. It's literally NOT rocket science. The
type of food that one braises is generally lower cost cuts of meat that are
tough, but big on flavor. If you don't believe me (or every cookbook ever
written), go to the store, get a chuck roast, brown it, add liquid and
seasoning, and put it in a 300F for four hours. I've been doing that for
over 40 years and it works every time.

Vox Humana wrote:

> "OpenMac" > wrote in message
> news:2004070221334850073%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasyne t...
>=20
>>>You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is at the
>=20
> boiling
>=20
>>>point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are just giving=

>=20
> it a
>=20
>>>nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature for braising=
=2E
>>>Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier than wha=
t
>=20
> you
>=20
>>>proposed.
>>
>>again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in the best
>>method for monitoring/controlling the temperature.
>>
>>as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>>
>>at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>>
>>
>>e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...03article.html
>>
>>"To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must maintain an
>>important balance. Cooking temperatures must be high enough to kill
>>microorganisms, yet not so high that the meat toughens. Use a
>>thermometer to check the temperature of the surrounding stock and keep
>>it at a simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 =B0F/88 =B0C."
>>
>>from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~ "med
>>simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by def'n, is boiling.
>>
>>try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ... you'll start
>>seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
>>
>=20
>=20
> I would then recommend that you get an array of thermocouples and conne=
ct
> each one to an analog to digital converter. Connect the convert to a
> multi-channel board that allows you to transfer the data to a computer.=
On
> a separate I/) port, connect an interface device that is computable wit=
h the
> electronic oven controller in you oven. Write a custom software packag=
e
> that monitors the oven conditions and food temperature and keeps everyt=
hing
> within a few hundredths of a degree of your desired internal meat
> temperature. Be sure to allow for the fact than most ovens vary as muc=
h as
> 25F +/- from the set temperature.

Jeez. <slaps forehead> Of course.

Why didn't I think of that...? It's just so obvious when you see it,=20
knowwadImean?

Pastorio


>=20
> In lieu of that, set your oven temperature at 300F, put you food in a =
heavy
> vessel with a tight fitting lid, and go away for three to four hours. =
Most
> people consider braising to be a "door slammer" technique. In other wo=
rds,
> you slam the door and walk away. It's literally NOT rocket science. T=
he
> type of food that one braises is generally lower cost cuts of meat that=
are
> tough, but big on flavor. If you don't believe me (or every cookbook e=
ver
> written), go to the store, get a chuck roast, brown it, add liquid and
> seasoning, and put it in a 300F for four hours. I've been doing that f=
or
> over 40 years and it works every time.
>=20
>=20

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
Vox Humana wrote:

> "OpenMac" > wrote in message
> news:2004070221334850073%OpenMacNoSpam@speakeasyne t...
>
>>>You aren't going to get any simmering unless the liquid is at the
>
> boiling
>
>>>point. At sea level, that would be 212F. At 180F you are just giving
>
> it a
>
>>>nice sauna. Three-hundred is a pretty common temperature for braising.
>>>Some people go to 325. Give it a try, it will be lots easier than what
>
> you
>
>>>proposed.
>>
>>again, i'm after a long slow braise, and am interested in the best
>>method for monitoring/controlling the temperature.
>>
>>as for the "simmer", that's not actually the case ...
>>
>>at 212F, the liquid is "boiling", not simmering.
>>
>>
>>e.g., http://www.exploratorium.edu/cooking...03article.html
>>
>>"To keep meat tender yet safe during braising, you must maintain an
>>important balance. Cooking temperatures must be high enough to kill
>>microorganisms, yet not so high that the meat toughens. Use a
>>thermometer to check the temperature of the surrounding stock and keep
>>it at a simmer of 180 F/82 C-190 °F/88 °C."
>>
>>from what i'm reading, 180-190F ~ "low" simmer, 190-200F ~ "med
>>simmer", 200-210F ~ "high" simmer, and > 212F, by def'n, is boiling.
>>
>>try it with a pot o' H20 and a probe thermometer ... you'll start
>>seeing your first simmer bubbles ~ 180F ...
>>
>
>
> I would then recommend that you get an array of thermocouples and connect
> each one to an analog to digital converter. Connect the convert to a
> multi-channel board that allows you to transfer the data to a computer.
On
> a separate I/) port, connect an interface device that is computable with
the
> electronic oven controller in you oven. Write a custom software package
> that monitors the oven conditions and food temperature and keeps
everything
> within a few hundredths of a degree of your desired internal meat
> temperature. Be sure to allow for the fact than most ovens vary as much
as
> 25F +/- from the set temperature.

Jeez. <slaps forehead> Of course.

Why didn't I think of that...? It's just so obvious when you see it,
knowwadImean?

Pastorio

You aren't watching enough Alton Brown or reading Cook's Illustrated!