"jmcquown" > wrote in message
. ..
> Dimitri wrote:
>> "aem" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> English is a very tough language for an adult to learn. Especially
>>> one
>>> who is working 70+ hours a week to provide for his family in this
>>> strange land. So it's not just that they "choose" not to learn. How
>>> assimilation works, including the acquisition of language skills, has
>>> been well studied. The immigrants struggle hard to pick up as much
>>> of
>>> the language as they can, most often without formal help. The first
>>> generation born here learns English well, and often scorns the native
>>> language as 'not American.' The second generation is native English
>>> speaking and feels bad about losing the native language, often making
>>> an effort to go back and learn it from the grandparents' generation.-aem
>>
>> You and I have some very different opinions.
>>
>> The migration now is very different from the past. In the past the
>> Migration to America was to be come American
>
> Ahem... Dimitri, birds migrate. People emigrate
>
> Having said that... when I lived in Bangkok (yes, I was young) I learned
> Thai, most of which I've forgotten. But I could bargain in the market
> with
> the best of them; not that I was out shopping for food but I could have.
> I
> bought some really cool (live) fish for the fishpond, though I could
> hail a saamlar (three wheeled taxi) if need be. I could order watermelon
> seeds (a snack) or dried squid (also a snack) from the street vendors. I
> could order in the small local restaurants. So, in effect, I agree with
> you. No excuse for at least not learning enough of the language to get
> by.
> No excuse at all for a person hired to do a certain job to not be able to
> communicate with their customer, whether he was a butcher, a meat cutter
> or
> the candlestick maker
>
> Jill
>
>

I have some questions, and they're serious ones. Be careful. One or more may
be traps.

1) How's he supposed to support himself while he's learning English?

2) Do different people require varying amounts of time to become fluent?

3) Is there a certain age range during which it's a breeze for humans to
learn new languages? If the answer is "yes", can you tell me the age range?

"Denny Wheeler" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 19:09:55 GMT, "Dimitri" >
> wrote:
>
>>>> Of course there are Arabic influences. DUH! Ever hear of the moors?
>>>
>>> Wait. You're telling me that the Arabic influences might be due to the
>>> presence of Arabic people at a certain time in history?
>>
>>http://www.greatbuildings.com/cgi-bi...id_2342578.gbi
>>
>>La Alhambra.
>>
>>It ain't Mexican.
>
> I think Dimitri missed some sarcasm.

Definitely. It happens often when someone's talking through a cloud of
self-made steam. :-)

Dimitri wrote:
> "-L." > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Dimitri wrote:
> >> "Doug Kanter" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> > That's great. Now, back to that meat cutter. How long has he been in this
> >> > country?
> >>
> >> Long enough to be employed be the Wal mart Corporation in the State of
> >> California - of course 65 people probably share his SS#
> >
> > That's about as bigoted as one can get. Asshole. As if your bitching
> > about the guy not speaking English wasn't clue enough...
>
> http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?nam...rticle&sid=516
>
> Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
>
> Putz!
>
> Dimitri

Just because this guy shares the ethnicity of those who have commited
fraud doesn't mean he's guilty of the same acts. Do I really have to
spell it out to you? Are you really THAT much of an asshole?

-L.

"-L." > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Dimitri wrote:
>> "-L." > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> >
>> > Dimitri wrote:
>> >> "Doug Kanter" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> > That's great. Now, back to that meat cutter. How long has he been in
>> >> > this
>> >> > country?
>> >>
>> >> Long enough to be employed be the Wal mart Corporation in the State of
>> >> California - of course 65 people probably share his SS#
>> >
>> > That's about as bigoted as one can get. Asshole. As if your bitching
>> > about the guy not speaking English wasn't clue enough...
>>
>> http://www.alipac.us/modules.php?nam...rticle&sid=516
>>
>> Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
>>
>> Putz!
>>
>> Dimitri
>
> Just because this guy shares the ethnicity of those who have commited
> fraud doesn't mean he's guilty of the same acts. Do I really have to
> spell it out to you? Are you really THAT much of an asshole?
>
> -L.
>

A couple of Russian dudes were arrested here last year for selling illegally
caught lake trout out of the back of a pickup truck. Does this mean Dmitri
is probably a poacher too?

Doug Kanter wrote:
> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Dimitri wrote:
>>> "aem" > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> English is a very tough language for an adult to learn. Especially
>>>> one
>>>> who is working 70+ hours a week to provide for his family in this
>>>> strange land. So it's not just that they "choose" not to learn.
>>>> How assimilation works, including the acquisition of language
>>>> skills, has been well studied. The immigrants struggle hard to
>>>> pick up as much
>>>> of
>>>> the language as they can, most often without formal help. The
>>>> first generation born here learns English well, and often scorns
>>>> the native language as 'not American.' The second generation is
>>>> native English speaking and feels bad about losing the native
>>>> language, often making an effort to go back and learn it from the
>>>> grandparents' generation.-aem
>>>
>>> You and I have some very different opinions.
>>>
>>> The migration now is very different from the past. In the past the
>>> Migration to America was to be come American
>>
>> Ahem... Dimitri, birds migrate. People emigrate
>>
>> Having said that... when I lived in Bangkok (yes, I was young) I
>> learned Thai, most of which I've forgotten. But I could bargain in
>> the market with
>> the best of them; not that I was out shopping for food but I could
>> have. I
>> bought some really cool (live) fish for the fishpond, though I
>> could hail a saamlar (three wheeled taxi) if need be. I could order
>> watermelon seeds (a snack) or dried squid (also a snack) from the
>> street vendors. I could order in the small local restaurants. So,
>> in effect, I agree with you. No excuse for at least not learning
>> enough of the language to get by.
>> No excuse at all for a person hired to do a certain job to not be
>> able to communicate with their customer, whether he was a butcher, a
>> meat cutter or
>> the candlestick maker
>>
>> Jill
>>
>>
>
> I have some questions, and they're serious ones. Be careful. One or
> more may be traps.
>
Oh goody, I love traps. You realize this isn't a test. It's Usenet and up
for debate regardless. But I'll play.

> 1) How's he supposed to support himself while he's learning English?
>
However he can.

> 2) Do different people require varying amounts of time to become
> fluent?
>
Of course. Exposure to the culture and the language and asking questions
when you don't understand helps a lot. Many people are afraid to do that
for fear of looking stupid. Well of course if you don't know the language
you are ignorant but not stupid. So ask questions. Get laughed at. Learn.

> 3) Is there a certain age range during which it's a breeze for humans
> to learn new languages? If the answer is "yes", can you tell me the
> age range?

Obviously the younger the better. But, to give an example of an "older"
person, my father was about 50 and he picked up the language pretty quickly.
And no, he didn't attend classes. He also gave each of us a translation
book to help with common words and phrases. I believe there is a
Spanish-english dictionary... in fact I still have one from when I took
Spanish classes in the 70's. Oh, I have a Gaelic dictionary, too. If you
want to talk about a really difficult language, that's it!

Now the funny thing here is when I was at the store last week and a Mexican
man was standing in my way, I said to him in Spanish excuse me. He moved
aside and then pointed me out to his friends and laughed at the "gringo" who
could speak his language. I am by no means fluent in spanish (or "mexican
spanish") but I recognize being insulted when I hear it. Here I thought I
was being polite. Maybe I should have just shoved him aside... I dunno.

Jill

"jmcquown" > wrote in message
. ..

>> I have some questions, and they're serious ones. Be careful. One or
>> more may be traps.
>>
> Oh goody, I love traps. You realize this isn't a test. It's Usenet and
> up
> for debate regardless. But I'll play.
>
>> 1) How's he supposed to support himself while he's learning English?
>>
> However he can.

Trap #1: If he worked illegally while he learned English, would that bother
you?



>> 2) Do different people require varying amounts of time to become
>> fluent?
>>
> Of course. Exposure to the culture and the language and asking questions
> when you don't understand helps a lot. Many people are afraid to do that
> for fear of looking stupid. Well of course if you don't know the language
> you are ignorant but not stupid. So ask questions. Get laughed at.
> Learn.


So, if an otherwise highly competent Mexican takes 2 years to get it right,
you think he should be on welfare until he's fluent? Or, go back to question
#1.




>> 3) Is there a certain age range during which it's a breeze for humans
>> to learn new languages? If the answer is "yes", can you tell me the
>> age range?
>
> Obviously the younger the better. But, to give an example of an "older"
> person, my father was about 50 and he picked up the language pretty
> quickly.
> And no, he didn't attend classes. He also gave each of us a translation
> book to help with common words and phrases. I believe there is a
> Spanish-english dictionary... in fact I still have one from when I took
> Spanish classes in the 70's. Oh, I have a Gaelic dictionary, too. If you
> want to talk about a really difficult language, that's it!

The optimum age is birth through 10. If middle-aged people pick it up
quickly, they may have a knack for language. Lots of people do not.

While we're discussing this, I have another question. Is it safe to assume
that if you managed that Wal Mart, you might move the butcher into a
position where he didn't need to interact with the public? A demotion, in
other words. He'd probably end up on the cleaning crew because pretty much
everyone else in the store has to speak to customers at some point.

If the answer is "yes", I need to know if you've written to your elected
slobs in Washington, and asked that the president also be demoted.

1. At a job where he does not need to interact with english speakers.
Factory work, farm work, stockroom work. I grew up in a city during a
wave of Portuguese immigration. The new guys would come in, work in
the factories, live many to an apartment, and save loads of their
minimum wage salary to send home or invest here. By the time I was a
teen, many of those same people had bought houses, and were renting out
rooms and apartments, moving into retail jobs, etc.

2. Of course. Those folks who were starting their own businesses and
moving into management in the factories learned quickly. The guy my
Dad hired didn't. He was a good worker, but couldn't communicate,
misunderstood directions, and Dad finally had to let him go. Dad hired
him back 2 years later, and the guy still had a very poor grasp of
English. It often depends on how much interaction you have with the
dominant culture's language.

3. Birth to 10 is when learning languages is easiest, and when the
brain stores the comprehension in the same areas. After about 10, the
brain stores new languages in another portion of itself, and when
speaking in the second language, there is a lot of back&forth going on
between the two areas. But my grandparents came here with no english,
and learned it as their children learned it. It's not impossible, it's
often a matter of exposure.

There are plenty of ESL classes during the day and evenings. If
someone wants to learn, the opportunity is there. There are plenty of
immigrants, both legal and illegal, who have proved the point. Until a
person has the skills for a particular job, they may find themselves
locked out of that job util they gain the skills--even if those skills
involve being able to speak the dominant language, write a coherent
sentence, give a presentation, make change without a machine telling
you how much to give the customer, etc.

Bleedingheart liberalism aside, unless it's your kid, you're not going
to put the mailroom clerk in charge of the entire company until he's
acquired the skill-set necessary to do the job.

OB "food": watch your blood sugar: www.cuteoverload.com
ww.kittenwar.com

maxine in ri

In article >,
"Doug Kanter" > wrote:

> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
> >> I have some questions, and they're serious ones. Be careful. One or
> >> more may be traps.
> >>
> > Oh goody, I love traps. You realize this isn't a test. It's Usenet and
> > up
> > for debate regardless. But I'll play.
> >
> >> 1) How's he supposed to support himself while he's learning English?
> >>
> > However he can.
>
> Trap #1: If he worked illegally while he learned English, would that bother
> you?


Irrelevant to the question. I'm sure there are a few illegal aliens who
speak English. There are many legal aliens (green card) who speak *no*
English.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Doug Kanter" > wrote:
>
>> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>
>> >> I have some questions, and they're serious ones. Be careful. One or
>> >> more may be traps.
>> >>
>> > Oh goody, I love traps. You realize this isn't a test. It's Usenet
>> > and
>> > up
>> > for debate regardless. But I'll play.
>> >
>> >> 1) How's he supposed to support himself while he's learning English?
>> >>
>> > However he can.
>>
>> Trap #1: If he worked illegally while he learned English, would that
>> bother
>> you?
>
>
> Irrelevant to the question. I'm sure there are a few illegal aliens who
> speak English. There are many legal aliens (green card) who speak *no*
> English.

I'm not so sure. What if the guy's massively qualified for the food biz, and
marginally qualified for anything else? If he can't afford a luxurious month
or two or three to find a decent job, he may have no choice but to work
"illegally", if he needs something fast.

In article >,
"Doug Kanter" > wrote:

> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Doug Kanter" > wrote:

> >> Trap #1: If he worked illegally while he learned English, would that
> >> bother
> >> you?

> > Irrelevant to the question. I'm sure there are a few illegal aliens who
> > speak English. There are many legal aliens (green card) who speak *no*
> > English.

> I'm not so sure. What if the guy's massively qualified for the food biz, and
> marginally qualified for anything else? If he can't afford a luxurious month
> or two or three to find a decent job, he may have no choice but to work
> "illegally", if he needs something fast.

What the heck does "illegally" mean in your last sentence? If I have a
degree in economics, and I work as a janitor, is that illegal?

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

"Dan Abel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Doug Kanter" > wrote:
>
>> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > "Doug Kanter" > wrote:
>
>> >> Trap #1: If he worked illegally while he learned English, would that
>> >> bother
>> >> you?
>
>> > Irrelevant to the question. I'm sure there are a few illegal aliens
>> > who
>> > speak English. There are many legal aliens (green card) who speak *no*
>> > English.
>
>> I'm not so sure. What if the guy's massively qualified for the food biz,
>> and
>> marginally qualified for anything else? If he can't afford a luxurious
>> month
>> or two or three to find a decent job, he may have no choice but to work
>> "illegally", if he needs something fast.
>
> What the heck does "illegally" mean in your last sentence? If I have a
> degree in economics, and I work as a janitor, is that illegal?

The guy's Mexican, remember? If he's not supposed to be here (maybe?), his
options may be more limited than you, a citizen.

Here's the REAL bottom line, I think: People like to romanticize their
ancestors' experiences, and make it sound like they all arrived here knowing
8 languages. That's bullshit. The only reason this Mexican guy is a problem
now is that we've been told to think that way. It sucks because the people
who whine the most about illegals stealing jobs are people who are least
likely to EVER take those kinds of jobs themselves. So, that reason is
nothing but vapor. What's left is racism. No different than 100 years ago
when there was always someone ready to hassle Germans, Jews, Poles,
Italians, or whoever was the evil du jour.

In article >,
"jmcquown" > wrote:

> Doug Kanter wrote:
> > "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >> Dimitri wrote:
> >>> "aem" > wrote in message
> >>> ups.com...
> >>>
> >>> <snip>
> >>>
> >>>> English is a very tough language for an adult to learn. Especially
> >>>> one
> >>>> who is working 70+ hours a week to provide for his family in this
> >>>> strange land. So it's not just that they "choose" not to learn.
> >>>> How assimilation works, including the acquisition of language
> >>>> skills, has been well studied. The immigrants struggle hard to
> >>>> pick up as much
> >>>> of
> >>>> the language as they can, most often without formal help. The
> >>>> first generation born here learns English well, and often scorns
> >>>> the native language as 'not American.' The second generation is
> >>>> native English speaking and feels bad about losing the native
> >>>> language, often making an effort to go back and learn it from the
> >>>> grandparents' generation.-aem
> >>>
> >>> You and I have some very different opinions.
> >>>
> >>> The migration now is very different from the past. In the past the
> >>> Migration to America was to be come American
> >>
> >> Ahem... Dimitri, birds migrate. People emigrate
> >>
> >> Having said that... when I lived in Bangkok (yes, I was young) I
> >> learned Thai, most of which I've forgotten. But I could bargain in
> >> the market with
> >> the best of them; not that I was out shopping for food but I could
> >> have. I
> >> bought some really cool (live) fish for the fishpond, though I
> >> could hail a saamlar (three wheeled taxi) if need be. I could order
> >> watermelon seeds (a snack) or dried squid (also a snack) from the
> >> street vendors. I could order in the small local restaurants. So,
> >> in effect, I agree with you. No excuse for at least not learning
> >> enough of the language to get by.
> >> No excuse at all for a person hired to do a certain job to not be
> >> able to communicate with their customer, whether he was a butcher, a
> >> meat cutter or
> >> the candlestick maker
> >>
> >> Jill
> >>
> >>
> >
> > I have some questions, and they're serious ones. Be careful. One or
> > more may be traps.
> >
> Oh goody, I love traps. You realize this isn't a test. It's Usenet and up
> for debate regardless. But I'll play.
>
> > 1) How's he supposed to support himself while he's learning English?
> >
> However he can.
>
> > 2) Do different people require varying amounts of time to become
> > fluent?
> >
> Of course. Exposure to the culture and the language and asking questions
> when you don't understand helps a lot. Many people are afraid to do that
> for fear of looking stupid. Well of course if you don't know the language
> you are ignorant but not stupid. So ask questions. Get laughed at. Learn.
>
> > 3) Is there a certain age range during which it's a breeze for humans
> > to learn new languages? If the answer is "yes", can you tell me the
> > age range?
>
> Obviously the younger the better. But, to give an example of an "older"
> person, my father was about 50 and he picked up the language pretty quickly.
> And no, he didn't attend classes. He also gave each of us a translation
> book to help with common words and phrases. I believe there is a
> Spanish-english dictionary... in fact I still have one from when I took
> Spanish classes in the 70's. Oh, I have a Gaelic dictionary, too. If you
> want to talk about a really difficult language, that's it!
>
> Now the funny thing here is when I was at the store last week and a Mexican
> man was standing in my way, I said to him in Spanish excuse me. He moved
> aside and then pointed me out to his friends and laughed at the "gringo" who
> could speak his language. I am by no means fluent in spanish (or "mexican
> spanish") but I recognize being insulted when I hear it. Here I thought I
> was being polite. Maybe I should have just shoved him aside... I dunno.
>
> Jill

¡Qué lástima! I practice my Spanish at the Mexican restaurant we
frequent here. The folks there are always impressed that I can order
and generally start speaking español muy rápido. I always have to slow
them down. I have a near-native accent and because of that they think
I speak more than I do. My Spanish is okay, but not great; it's just
that I pronounce well. :-)

Cute story: Sister Irene was divesting of her late husband's clothes at
a garage sale. He favored (Ready? Set? GUFFAW!!) clip-on ties. There
were a couple racks of them. A group of several Hispanic folks
(Mexican? Probably.) came and inspected the sale, accompanying their
perusing with chatter in the mother tongue. I understood about every
4th word but said nothing. When they left, I followed them down the
driveway with a small toy for the little girl in the group - "Para la
niña." Several jaws dropped and they hurried off. It was clear to me
that they thought I'd understood all of their poking fun at my late
BIL's things.
--
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com, updated 12-22-05

Doug Kanter wrote:
> A couple of Russian dudes were arrested here last year for selling illegally
> caught lake trout out of the back of a pickup truck. Does this mean Dmitri
> is probably a poacher too?

No, according to Dimitri, it means he *is* a poacher. Oh, and don't
forget the drunk Russian stereotype. He must be sippin' the sauce,
too....
-L.

> Cute story: Sister Irene was divesting of her late husband's clothes at
> a garage sale. He favored (Ready? Set? GUFFAW!!) clip-on ties. There
> were a couple racks of them. A group of several Hispanic folks
> (Mexican? Probably.) came and inspected the sale, accompanying their
> perusing with chatter in the mother tongue. I understood about every
> 4th word but said nothing. When they left, I followed them down the
> driveway with a small toy for the little girl in the group - "Para la
> niña." Several jaws dropped and they hurried off. It was clear to me
> that they thought I'd understood all of their poking fun at my late
> BIL's things.
> http://www.jamlady.eboard.com, updated 12-22-05

Same thing with us at restaurant in Montreal, L'Express, where some charming
young women were looking over at us a lot. We were so close that the waiter
could barely get thru. I'm sure they understood everything we were saying
and maybe were yukking it up about it; I don't know, but we suspected
possibly they were.
When we were ready to leave I had a little conversation with the waiter in
French. The same thing you mentioned happened. They had lowered heads
until we left; but I'm sure they had a good time after we left. I hope they
did. It was a cute situation.
Dee Dee

On Fri 30 Dec 2005 03:17:53p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Melba's
Jammin'?

> ¡Qué lástima! I practice my Spanish at the Mexican restaurant we
> frequent here. The folks there are always impressed that I can order
> and generally start speaking español muy rápido. I always have to slow
> them down. I have a near-native accent and because of that they think
> I speak more than I do. My Spanish is okay, but not great; it's just
> that I pronounce well. :-)
>
> Cute story: Sister Irene was divesting of her late husband's clothes at
> a garage sale. He favored (Ready? Set? GUFFAW!!) clip-on ties. There
> were a couple racks of them. A group of several Hispanic folks
> (Mexican? Probably.) came and inspected the sale, accompanying their
> perusing with chatter in the mother tongue. I understood about every
> 4th word but said nothing. When they left, I followed them down the
> driveway with a small toy for the little girl in the group - "Para la
> niña." Several jaws dropped and they hurried off. It was clear to me
> that they thought I'd understood all of their poking fun at my late
> BIL's things.

That was a cute story, Barb. However, as you've mentioned to me several
times, you might consider snipping most of what preceded it. Just a
thought. <g>

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if we enter a room full of manure, may we believe in the pony.

"Dee Randall" > wrote in message
...
>> Cute story: Sister Irene was divesting of her late husband's clothes at
>> a garage sale. He favored (Ready? Set? GUFFAW!!) clip-on ties. There
>> were a couple racks of them. A group of several Hispanic folks
>> (Mexican? Probably.) came and inspected the sale, accompanying their
>> perusing with chatter in the mother tongue. I understood about every
>> 4th word but said nothing. When they left, I followed them down the
>> driveway with a small toy for the little girl in the group - "Para la
>> niña." Several jaws dropped and they hurried off. It was clear to me
>> that they thought I'd understood all of their poking fun at my late
>> BIL's things.
>> http://www.jamlady.eboard.com, updated 12-22-05
>
> Same thing with us at restaurant in Montreal, L'Express, where some
> charming young women were looking over at us a lot. We were so close that
> the waiter could barely get thru. I'm sure they understood everything we
> were saying and maybe were yukking it up about it; I don't know, but we
> suspected possibly they were.
> When we were ready to leave I had a little conversation with the waiter in
> French. The same thing you mentioned happened. They had lowered heads
> until we left; but I'm sure they had a good time after we left. I hope
> they did. It was a cute situation.

You just reminded me of my graduation from nursing school. Several couples
had rented hotel rooms and were getting ready for the ball. Fiancé and I
wandered into a room where a fellow Francophone and I started babbling in
French, Denise asking if as planned I'd done without undies to prevent panty
line from showing through my clingy gown. When I said "No, I'm feeling sick
and not risking passing out without underwear" she went into a rant about
how she wasn't wearing any because we'd all agreed to go regimental, blah,
blah, blah, all the while trying to attach a boutonniere on her very
confused looking, non-French speaking date's jacket. After watching her
fumble with the carnation my fiancé goes to her and says in perfect French
"Would you like me to help you with that, Denise?" She turned 8 different
shades of red and yelled "Oh shit! You speak French?!?!?" I never told her
that he hadn't heard her comments and had asked me later why she blushed
like that.

Gabby

In article >,
"Doug Kanter" > wrote:

> "Dan Abel" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Doug Kanter" > wrote:

> >> I'm not so sure. What if the guy's massively qualified for the food biz,
> >> and
> >> marginally qualified for anything else? If he can't afford a luxurious
> >> month
> >> or two or three to find a decent job, he may have no choice but to work
> >> "illegally", if he needs something fast.
> >
> > What the heck does "illegally" mean in your last sentence? If I have a
> > degree in economics, and I work as a janitor, is that illegal?
>
> The guy's Mexican, remember? If he's not supposed to be here (maybe?), his
> options may be more limited than you, a citizen.

I'm even more confused, Doug. The "decent" jobs often don't hire
illegals at all. If it is the case that he is an illegal alien, it
doesn't matter whether it is a decent job or not.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

Doug Kanter wrote:
> "jmcquown" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>> I have some questions, and they're serious ones. Be careful. One or
>>> more may be traps.
>>>
>> Oh goody, I love traps. You realize this isn't a test. It's Usenet
>> and up
>> for debate regardless. But I'll play.
>>
>>> 1) How's he supposed to support himself while he's learning English?
>>>
>> However he can.
>
> Trap #1: If he worked illegally while he learned English, would that
> bother you?
>
AFAIK, most of them work without a green card but are trying to get one, so
no, it doesn't bother me.
>
>>> 2) Do different people require varying amounts of time to become
>>> fluent?
>>>
>> Of course. Exposure to the culture and the language and asking
>> questions when you don't understand helps a lot. Many people are
>> afraid to do that for fear of looking stupid. Well of course if you
>> don't know the language you are ignorant but not stupid. So ask
>> questions. Get laughed at. Learn.
>
> So, if an otherwise highly competent Mexican takes 2 years to get it
> right, you think he should be on welfare until he's fluent? Or, go
> back to question #1.
>
Receving welfare (and food stamps, let us throw that in) is a totally
different subject from being conversant in the language which enables the
person to do the job they are hired to do.
>
>>> 3) Is there a certain age range during which it's a breeze for
>>> humans
>>> to learn new languages? If the answer is "yes", can you tell me the
>>> age range?
>>
>> Obviously the younger the better. But, to give an example of an
>> "older" person, my father was about 50 and he picked up the language
>> pretty quickly.
>> And no, he didn't attend classes. He also gave each of us a
>> translation book to help with common words and phrases. I believe
>> there is a Spanish-english dictionary... in fact I still have one
>> from when I took Spanish classes in the 70's. Oh, I have a Gaelic
>> dictionary, too. If you want to talk about a really difficult
>> language, that's it!
>
> The optimum age is birth through 10. If middle-aged people pick it up
> quickly, they may have a knack for language. Lots of people do not.
>
And your point is? That lots of people do not bother?

> While we're discussing this, I have another question. Is it safe to
> assume that if you managed that Wal Mart, you might move the butcher
> into a position where he didn't need to interact with the public? A
> demotion, in other words. He'd probably end up on the cleaning crew
> because pretty much everyone else in the store has to speak to
> customers at some point.
>
There is no rule that says if you don't interact with the public you are
"demoted". What planet are you on? You don't have to interact with the
public to do your job. You don't have to interact with the public to manage
a department. In fact, that's what managers hire other people to do.

> If the answer is "yes", I need to know if you've written to your
> elected slobs in Washington, and asked that the president also be
> demoted.

You are being an ass about this subject.

Jill

On Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:17:53 -0600, Melba's Jammin'
> rummaged among random neurons
and opined:

>¡Qué lástima! I practice my Spanish at the Mexican restaurant we
>frequent here. The folks there are always impressed that I can order
>and generally start speaking español muy rápido. I always have to slow
>them down. I have a near-native accent and because of that they think
>I speak more than I do. My Spanish is okay, but not great; it's just
>that I pronounce well. :-)
>
>Cute story:

<snip of cute story>

My Spanish was honed from the time I was a toddler on my grandmother's
ranch in Arizona. Most of her ranch hands were Mexicans and I've kept
the language up. A few years ago, I ordered some Mexican Saltillo tile
for my family room, going by the sample they had in the tile shop,
which was owned and operated by Hispanics. When my tile was delivered,
my contractor was present, and I had a look at some of the tile just
to make sure it was the right stuff. Very unhappily, about half the
tiles had noticable stripes - two each - on them, which *wasn't* on
the sample tile. I told the tile vendor that I was not paying for the
striped ones and, although he ranted and raved that this was from the
way they were dried - stacked - he admitted that the sample did not
have stripes and agreed to replace the striped ones, which
necessitated going through every single tile for about a 600 square
foot room. While the vendor, his helper, my contractor and I were
sorting through the tiles, he was muttering to his helper the entire
time, calling me every name in the book. I just kept sorting. When he
delivered the replacements, which I also sorted through, I told him
(in Spanish) that he had better watch who he called names, b/c you
just never know who speaks Spanish.

Smugly,
Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd
AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA

"If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret had been as
old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had been as full as the
waitress's, it would have been a very good dinner."

-- Duncan Hines

To reply, replace "spaminator" with "cox"

On 30 Dec 2005 01:48:40 -0800, "-L." >
rummaged among random neurons and opined:

>Just because this guy shares the ethnicity of those who have commited
>fraud doesn't mean he's guilty of the same acts. Do I really have to
>spell it out to you? Are you really THAT much of an asshole?
>
I find it hugely amusing that your email address is
," as your posts are about as combative as it
gets (save for Sheldon, who is in a class by himself). I also find
that calling names is usually an attempt to buttress a poor argument.

Dimitri, old lad, consider the source and refuse to engage in any
further arguendo. Once the name calling starts, reason flies out the
window, IMHO.

Piquedly,
Terry "Squeaks" Pulliam Burd
AAC(F)BV66.0748.CA

"If the soup had been as hot as the claret, if the claret had been as
old as the bird, and if the bird's breasts had been as full as the
waitress's, it would have been a very good dinner."

-- Duncan Hines

To reply, replace "spaminator" with "cox"

In article >,
Terry Pulliam Burd > wrote:


> which was owned and operated by Hispanics. When my tile was delivered,
> my contractor was present, and I had a look at some of the tile just
> to make sure it was the right stuff. Very unhappily, about half the
> tiles had noticable stripes - two each - on them, which *wasn't* on
> the sample tile. I told the tile vendor that I was not paying for the
> striped ones and, although he ranted and raved that this was from the
> way they were dried - stacked - he admitted that the sample did not
> have stripes and agreed to replace the striped ones, which
> necessitated going through every single tile for about a 600 square
> foot room. While the vendor, his helper, my contractor and I were
> sorting through the tiles, he was muttering to his helper the entire
> time, calling me every name in the book. I just kept sorting. When he
> delivered the replacements, which I also sorted through, I told him
> (in Spanish) that he had better watch who he called names, b/c you
> just never know who speaks Spanish.


One of my daughter's best friends is Mexican. She studied some English
in Mexico, but the family moved to the US when she was fairly young.
Not only did she learn Spanish when young, but her parents speak only
Spanish, so she had no choice but to be bilingual.

So they go to a Mexican restaurant together. Now, my daughter is
obviously a gringo, with white skin and brown hair. Her friend,
however, has very black hair and dark skin. To my untrained eye, she
looks very Spanish. They spoke English at the restaurant, since my
daughter speaks very little Spanish. The staff start making cracks
about them in Spanish. The friend just ignores them. After they finish
and pay, and are walking out the door, the friend turns and unleashes a
torrent of Spanish at the staff. They are just dumbfounded.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

Dan Abel wrote:
> In article >,
> Terry Pulliam Burd > wrote:
>
>
>> which was owned and operated by Hispanics. When my tile was
>> delivered, my contractor was present, and I had a look at some of
>> the tile just to make sure it was the right stuff. Very unhappily,
>> about half the tiles had noticable stripes - two each - on them,
>> which *wasn't* on the sample tile. I told the tile vendor that I was
>> not paying for the striped ones and, although he ranted and raved
>> that this was from the way they were dried - stacked - he admitted
>> that the sample did not have stripes and agreed to replace the
>> striped ones, which necessitated going through every single tile for
>> about a 600 square foot room. While the vendor, his helper, my
>> contractor and I were sorting through the tiles, he was muttering to
>> his helper the entire time, calling me every name in the book. I
>> just kept sorting. When he delivered the replacements, which I also
>> sorted through, I told him (in Spanish) that he had better watch who
>> he called names, b/c you just never know who speaks Spanish.
>
>
> One of my daughter's best friends is Mexican. She studied some
> English in Mexico, but the family moved to the US when she was fairly
> young. Not only did she learn Spanish when young, but her parents
> speak only Spanish, so she had no choice but to be bilingual.
>
> So they go to a Mexican restaurant together. Now, my daughter is
> obviously a gringo, with white skin and brown hair. Her friend,
> however, has very black hair and dark skin. To my untrained eye, she
> looks very Spanish. They spoke English at the restaurant, since my
> daughter speaks very little Spanish. The staff start making cracks
> about them in Spanish. The friend just ignores them. After they
> finish and pay, and are walking out the door, the friend turns and
> unleashes a torrent of Spanish at the staff. They are just
> dumbfounded.

Years ago I had a friend Jennie who relocated from SoCal to (sadly) the
Memphis area. We finished our dinner and drinks during which she and we had
endured some rather ill remarks in Spanish from these construction guys
sitting down at the end of the bar. As we got up to leave, she did what
your friend did... she unleashed a torrent in Spanish at them and basically
said, "Don't *ass*ume we don't know what you are saying about us!" and she
called them a bunch of names as we walked out. The gist of it was they were
too low to ever get near women like us so screw them and the horses they
didn't own. LOL

Jill

Terry Pulliam Burd wrote:
> On 30 Dec 2005 01:48:40 -0800, "-L." >
> rummaged among random neurons and opined:
>
> >Just because this guy shares the ethnicity of those who have commited
> >fraud doesn't mean he's guilty of the same acts. Do I really have to
> >spell it out to you? Are you really THAT much of an asshole?
> >
> I find it hugely amusing that your email address is
> ," as your posts are about as combative as it
> gets (save for Sheldon, who is in a class by himself).

I find it amsuing that you have a man's name and demeanor, yet claim to
be a woman. So what? Snakes are hardly ever completely docile...

> I also find
> that calling names is usually an attempt to buttress a poor argument.
>
> Dimitri, old lad, consider the source and refuse to engage in any
> further arguendo. Once the name calling starts, reason flies out the
> window, IMHO.

Racism is never ok. Racists are assholes. I'm sorry you fit into that
category with Dimitri, apparently.
-L.

In article . com>,
"-L." > wrote:

> Terry Pulliam Burd wrote:
> > On 30 Dec 2005 01:48:40 -0800, "-L." >
> > rummaged among random neurons and opined:
> >
> > >Just because this guy shares the ethnicity of those who have commited
> > >fraud doesn't mean he's guilty of the same acts. Do I really have to
> > >spell it out to you? Are you really THAT much of an asshole?
> > >
> > I find it hugely amusing that your email address is
> > ," as your posts are about as combative as it
> > gets (save for Sheldon, who is in a class by himself).
>
> I find it amsuing that you have a man's name and demeanor, yet claim to
> be a woman.

Man named Terry = Terrence
Woman name Terry = Theresa

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

On Sat 31 Dec 2005 12:25:56a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Dan Abel?

> In article . com>,
> "-L." > wrote:
>
>> Terry Pulliam Burd wrote:
>> > On 30 Dec 2005 01:48:40 -0800, "-L." >
>> > rummaged among random neurons and opined:
>> >
>> > >Just because this guy shares the ethnicity of those who have commited
>> > >fraud doesn't mean he's guilty of the same acts. Do I really have to
>> > >spell it out to you? Are you really THAT much of an asshole?
>> > >
>> > I find it hugely amusing that your email address is
>> > ," as your posts are about as combative as it
>> > gets (save for Sheldon, who is in a class by himself).
>>
>> I find it amsuing that you have a man's name and demeanor, yet claim to
>> be a woman.
>
> Man named Terry = Terrence
> Woman name Terry = Theresa
>

Or, Terrie.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if we enter a room full of manure, may we believe in the pony.

Dan Abel wrote:
> In article . com>,
> "-L." > wrote:
>
> > Terry Pulliam Burd wrote:
> > > On 30 Dec 2005 01:48:40 -0800, "-L." >
> > > rummaged among random neurons and opined:
> > >
> > > >Just because this guy shares the ethnicity of those who have commited
> > > >fraud doesn't mean he's guilty of the same acts. Do I really have to
> > > >spell it out to you? Are you really THAT much of an asshole?
> > > >
> > > I find it hugely amusing that your email address is
> > > ," as your posts are about as combative as it
> > > gets (save for Sheldon, who is in a class by himself).
> >
> > I find it amsuing that you have a man's name and demeanor, yet claim to
> > be a woman.
>
> Man named Terry = Terrence
> Woman name Terry = Theresa
>

By and large the name "Terry" is a male name. "Terry Pulliam Burd, or
whatever her name is, sounds masculine to me, as does her writing
style.

I always thought SF was a dude, too.

-L.

-L wrote:

> By and large the name "Terry" is a male name. "Terry Pulliam Burd, or
> whatever her name is, sounds masculine to me, as does her writing
> style.
>
> I always thought SF was a dude, too.

Well, you were wrong on both counts. And to save you further embarrassment,
"Boron Elgar" is a woman as well.

Bob

On 31 Dec 2005 01:50:02 -0600, "Bob Terwilliger"
> wrote:

>-L wrote:
>
>> By and large the name "Terry" is a male name. "Terry Pulliam Burd, or
>> whatever her name is, sounds masculine to me, as does her writing
>> style.
>>
>> I always thought SF was a dude, too.
>
>Well, you were wrong on both counts. And to save you further embarrassment,
>"Boron Elgar" is a woman as well.
>
>Bob
>
I have met sf in person, and she is definitely not a dude. Maybe a
dudette though...

Christine

On Sat 31 Dec 2005 12:53:13a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Christine
Dabney?

> On 31 Dec 2005 01:50:02 -0600, "Bob Terwilliger"
> > wrote:
>
>>-L wrote:
>>
>>> By and large the name "Terry" is a male name. "Terry Pulliam Burd, or
>>> whatever her name is, sounds masculine to me, as does her writing
>>> style.
>>>
>>> I always thought SF was a dude, too.
>>
>>Well, you were wrong on both counts. And to save you further
>>embarrassment, "Boron Elgar" is a woman as well.
>>
>>Bob
>>
> I have met sf in person, and she is definitely not a dude. Maybe a
> dudette though...
>
> Christine
>

I have seen pictures of Terry, and she is definitely la femme.

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if we enter a room full of manure, may we believe in the pony.

In article .com>,
"-L." > wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:
> > In article . com>,
> > "-L." > wrote:
> >
> > > Terry Pulliam Burd wrote:

> > > > I find it hugely amusing that your email address is
> > > > ," as your posts are about as combative as it
> > > > gets (save for Sheldon, who is in a class by himself).
> > >
> > > I find it amsuing that you have a man's name and demeanor, yet claim to
> > > be a woman.
> >
> > Man named Terry = Terrence
> > Woman name Terry = Theresa


> By and large the name "Terry" is a male name. "Terry Pulliam Burd, or
> whatever her name is, sounds masculine to me, as does her writing
> style.


This is an international and intergenerational newsgroup. My personal
experience is that the name Terry is shared equal between males and
females.

Sounds like your experience is different.

There have been a number of embarrassing moments at my work, back when I
worked. We had at least three men named Michel (pronounced like the
French Michelle).


> I always thought SF was a dude, too.


You thought a poster named Barbara was a dude?

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

On Sat 31 Dec 2005 12:41:28a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it -L.?

> By and large the name "Terry" is a male name. "Terry Pulliam Burd, or
> whatever her name is, sounds masculine to me, as does her writing
> style.
>
> I always thought SF was a dude, too.
>
> -L.

"Terry" is Terry. She used it because it is her name.
"sf" is Barbara. She used "sf" for San Francisco.

What would anyone think "-L." is? Male, female, city, state, loo?

--
Wayne Boatwright *¿*
__________________________________________________ ________________
And if we enter a room full of manure, may we believe in the pony.

On 2005-12-31, Bob Terwilliger > wrote:

> Well, you were wrong on both counts. And to save you further embarrassment,
> "Boron Elgar" is a woman as well.

Well, I got that one wrong. I didn't even notice it was Boron and not
Baron. I had a male friend named Baron (real name, not a title).

nb

Bob Terwilliger wrote:
>
> Well, you were wrong on both counts. And to save you further embarrassment,
> "Boron Elgar" is a woman as well.
>
> Bob

I am not embarassed, but thanks, anyway.
-L.

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> I have seen pictures of Terry, and she is definitely la femme.


"La femme" could refer to a *** male or a transvestite.
-L.

Dan Abel wrote:
>
>
> This is an international and intergenerational newsgroup. My personal
> experience is that the name Terry is shared equal between males and
> females.
>
> Sounds like your experience is different.

Yes. I have never met a female Terry.

>
> There have been a number of embarrassing moments at my work, back when I
> worked. We had at least three men named Michel (pronounced like the
> French Michelle).

I have that problem with Micah. I know 4, 2 male 2 female.

>
>
> > I always thought SF was a dude, too.
>
>
> You thought a poster named Barbara was a dude?

I have never seen her sign anything Barbara, I don't think. I think I
eventually asked her or found out some other way, though.

BTW - how do you like Petaluma? We are looking at properties down that
way.

-L.

Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
> "Terry" is Terry. She used it because it is her name.
> "sf" is Barbara. She used "sf" for San Francisco.
>
> What would anyone think "-L." is? Male, female, city, state, loo?

Doesn't matter. That's why I use it. Call me Lingonberry for all I
care.

No confusing "Wayne", though, right?

-L.
("Lyn", and yes I am female last time I looked. And yes, it is
primarily a male name when spelled thusly...)

Denny Wheeler wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Dec 2005 12:05:18 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Denny Wheeler" > wrote in message
> .. .
> >> On Wed, 28 Dec 2005 20:22:58 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>>Sadly, that's not the case here. Instead, many Americans equate language
> >>>proficiency with elitism, and vote for a man who pretends to be unable to
> >>>pronounce "nuclear", because this helps him scoop some of the undecided
> >>>voters who might otherwise choose a candidate based on whether his ears
> >>>were
> >>>pretty.
> >>
> >> "PRETENDS"??? I very much doubt it's pretense.
> >
> >That's what I used to think, but when he's given a speech to read, he does
> >pretty well at it, which means that he's programmable, presumably with a lot
> >of effort. I actually think that it this point, he's capable of saying the
> >word, but screwing it up endears him to the "folks" he wants to appeal to.
>
> IIRC, his Daddy also says "nucular"--I think it's simply that a
> certain segment thinks that's the correct pronunciation.

Yes, the uneducated.
-L.

-L replied:

>> Well, you were wrong on both counts. And to save you further
>> embarrassment, "Boron Elgar" is a woman as well.
>>
>
> I am not embarassed, but thanks, anyway.


Oh, I see what happened: I mistakenly assumed you had some kind of social
grace. Don't worry, it won't happen again.

You ****tard.

Bob

In article .com>,
"-L." > wrote:

> Dan Abel wrote:

> > You thought a poster named Barbara was a dude?
>
> I have never seen her sign anything Barbara, I don't think. I think I
> eventually asked her or found out some other way, though.


Maybe she doesn't anymore.


> BTW - how do you like Petaluma? We are looking at properties down that
> way.


We would never buy a house here now. We couldn't afford it. We are
very happy here, and it's a nice place, depending on what you want. We
live in a lower middle class neighborhood, and houses are selling for
US$500,000. These are tiny houses, on small lots. Our house is 1047sf.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

"Melba's Jammin'" > wrote

> Cute story: Sister Irene was divesting of her late husband's clothes at
> a garage sale. He favored (Ready? Set? GUFFAW!!) clip-on ties. There
> were a couple racks of them. A group of several Hispanic folks
> (Mexican? Probably.) came and inspected the sale, accompanying their
> perusing with chatter in the mother tongue. I understood about every
> 4th word but said nothing. When they left, I followed them down the
> driveway with a small toy for the little girl in the group - "Para la
> niña." Several jaws dropped and they hurried off. It was clear to me
> that they thought I'd understood all of their poking fun at my late
> BIL's things.

While I agree, that was a pretty funny story (they all are, actually), the
fact remains that speaking in a 'foreign' language to hide what you are
saying in front of other people is just plain RUDE.

I don't really think much of people who pull that stunt. Says something
about them and it's not something nice.

nancy