I know, I'm totally clueless. Or my mind is blanking from what I might
have vaguely remembered years ago.

Between red and white wines, is it a standard that white wine should
be slightly chilled, while red wine is served at room temp., and even
decanted to let it "breathe?" OR, is it a metteer of personal
taste, OR different for different types or varieties?

Winnes are stored in cellars at a constant temp., and there are cooler
apliances on the market made just to store wine. But are those used
just for the whites, or for reds as well? And if red is served at room
temp, then why store in a cool place?

OR do I have it all reversed?

I'm not looking for a college course on wines, just the general rules
of thumb (if there are any) on the cool vs not.

This line of musing all started because I have two bottles sitting
here, a reisling and a shiraz. Should I put one in the fridge, and
leave the other on the counter? Company is coming tomorrow, and
probably some of them will bring other bottles.

wrote:

> Between red and white wines, is it a standard that white wine should
> be slightly chilled, while red wine is served at room temp., and even
> decanted to let it "breathe?" OR, is it a metteer of personal
> taste, OR different for different types or varieties?

It's ALWAYS a matter of personal taste, in my opinion. But whites are
generally served chilled to about 50F and reds are generally served at "cool
room temperature," which I interpret to mean about 60F.


> This line of musing all started because I have two bottles sitting
> here, a reisling and a shiraz. Should I put one in the fridge, and
> leave the other on the counter? Company is coming tomorrow, and
> probably some of them will bring other bottles.

Put them both in the fridge. Take the shiraz out about 30 minutes before the
company arrives and open it. (That's another thing; reds are supposed to
benefit from "breathing.") Take the reisling out about 10 minutes before
the company arrives.

But I emphasize: IT'S A MATTER OF PERSONAL TASTE.

Bob

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I know, I'm totally clueless. Or my mind is blanking from what I might
> have vaguely remembered years ago.
>
> Between red and white wines, is it a standard that white wine should
> be slightly chilled, while red wine is served at room temp., and even
> decanted to let it "breathe?" OR, is it a metteer of personal
> taste, OR different for different types or varieties?
>
> Winnes are stored in cellars at a constant temp., and there are cooler
> apliances on the market made just to store wine. But are those used
> just for the whites, or for reds as well? And if red is served at room
> temp, then why store in a cool place?

Bob already gave some good information so I'll just expand on it a bit.

"Room temperature" goes back to when houses had no central heat and
basements were in the 50 degree range in winter and even the living areas
were maybe 60 or so degrees. In general, whites are best on the cooler
side, reds a bit more warmer. If you chill them too much, they tend to lose
some of the flavor and bouquet. I like to open a bottle of red wine and
decant it a couple of hours before serving. Yes, it really does make a
difference.

The more radical factions will have wines served at specific temperatures
such as type XXX is best at 51 degrees while type YYY should be 53 degrees.
I can't tell that kind of difference. See the chart below.

I have a 30 bottle wine cooker that I keep at about 53 to 55 degrees. I
take reds from it and decant, or at least open for some time before serving.
whites, in the summer, get put into the refrigerator for a half hour or so
just because I like them on the cooler side.

Hope this works when posted in plain text. Degrees F, degrees C, then the
wine type.

66°
19°
Vintage Port

64°
18°
Bordeaux, Shiraz

63°
17°
Red Burgundy, Cabernet

61°
16°
Rioja, Pinot Noir

59°
15°
Chianti, Zinfandel

57°
14°
Tawny/NV Port, Madeira

55°
13°
Ideal storage for all wines

54°
12°
Beaujolais, rose

52°
11°
Viognier, Sauternes

50°
10°
-

48°
9°
Chardonnay

47°
8°
Riesling

45°
7°
Champagne

43°
6°
Ice Wines

41°
5°
Asti Spumanti



Most of the enjoyment that comes from drinking wine involves its aroma.
Taste only has four aspects - sweet, sour, salty, acid. The nose does the
rest. Vapors are created as wine warms up, so the wine needs to be a few
degrees below its ideal drinking temperature for this to work. Room
Temperature is rarely 'wine drinking temperature' - if you're in the Indian
Ocean on a yacht, you hardly want 100° Chardonnay! How about Houston in
July? Warmth makes white wines taste dull. Few homes are regulated to match
wine-drinking temperatures.

So throw out the old "refrigerate all whites, drink all reds at current room
temperature" adage. Here is a chart to indicate in general best temperatures
for drinking wine at. Remember, though, that you also want to keep in mind
the temperature of the room relative to this 'idea temperature'. If your
room is 60°F and you are serving a fine Burgundy, perhaps chill the Burgundy
to 58°F to allow it a little warming up in the glass. Fridges do well for
cooling a wine when necessary, but for warming I prefer to warm it with my
hands, glass by glass.

" wrote:

> I know, I'm totally clueless. Or my mind is blanking from what I might
> have vaguely remembered years ago.
>
> Between red and white wines, is it a standard that white wine should
> be slightly chilled, while red wine is served at room temp., and even
> decanted to let it "breathe?" OR, is it a metteer of personal
> taste, OR different for different types or varieties?

A good rule of thumb is that white wine should be chilled and red wine
should be served at "room temperature" which in the good ol' days was
cooler than most rooms these days.

Fine old red wines should be opened ahead and allowed to breathe because
there can be some nasty stuff in there that will be given a chance to
escape. But I wouldn't worry about it. If you don't know a lot about wine
you are probably sticking to newer, less expensive wines that have not been
aged and don't really need to breathe.




> Winnes are stored in cellars at a constant temp., and there are cooler
> apliances on the market made just to store wine. But are those used
> just for the whites, or for reds as well? And if red is served at room
> temp, then why store in a cool place?

It is best for wines to be aged at a cool and constant temperature. Most
white wines are made in such a way that there is no point in ageing them.
They will not improve. In fact, they are more likely to deteriorate.

On 6 Jan 2006 19:01:30 -0800, " >
wrote:

>I know, I'm totally clueless. Or my mind is blanking from what I might
>have vaguely remembered years ago.
>
>Between red and white wines, is it a standard that white wine should
>be slightly chilled, while red wine is served at room temp., and even
>decanted to let it "breathe?" OR, is it a metteer of personal
>taste, OR different for different types or varieties?
>
>Winnes are stored in cellars at a constant temp., and there are cooler
>apliances on the market made just to store wine. But are those used
>just for the whites, or for reds as well? And if red is served at room
>temp, then why store in a cool place?
>
>OR do I have it all reversed?
>
>I'm not looking for a college course on wines, just the general rules
>of thumb (if there are any) on the cool vs not.
>
>This line of musing all started because I have two bottles sitting
>here, a reisling and a shiraz. Should I put one in the fridge, and
>leave the other on the counter? Company is coming tomorrow, and
>probably some of them will bring other bottles.
>
White wine should always be chilled, but not overchilled or the
flavours don't come through. Having said that, though, I always keep
the white wine in the fridge once the bottle is opened.

Red wine is generally served at room temparature and I would for your
guests. But that's more a convention, and if you like it cooler, then
do so.

As for letting the red wine breathe, that's really only for purists.

Storing red wine (and white) at a constant temperature is to protect
it from fluctuations that can affect the quality. At home, the coolest
place in the house is best (unless it's damn cold). Not a problem here
in NZ. We go for the coolest place as otherwise it's too warm.

My wine cellar is in the internal garage (under the house). It's cool,
even in summer, but the white wine isn't quite cool enough for
drinking without going in the fridge.

Kathy in NZ

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> > wrote in message
> oups.com...

> I have a 30 bottle wine cooker

You're cooking your wine?

that I keep at about 53 to 55 degrees.
> I take reds from it and decant, or at least open for some time before
> serving. whites, in the summer, get put into the refrigerator for a
> half hour or so just because I like them on the cooler side.
>
I'd love to have one of those wine coolers. We delivered a painting to a
house in Illinois a couple of years ago; the couple had one in their
kitchen. Of course they also had a wood-fired wall oven for pizzas. It was
a great kitchen!

Jill

In article .com>,
" > wrote:

> I know, I'm totally clueless. Or my mind is blanking from what I might
> have vaguely remembered years ago.
>
> Between red and white wines, is it a standard that white wine should
> be slightly chilled, while red wine is served at room temp., and even
> decanted to let it "breathe?" OR, is it a metteer of personal
> taste, OR different for different types or varieties?
>
> Winnes are stored in cellars at a constant temp., and there are cooler
> apliances on the market made just to store wine. But are those used
> just for the whites, or for reds as well? And if red is served at room
> temp, then why store in a cool place?
>
> OR do I have it all reversed?
>
> I'm not looking for a college course on wines, just the general rules
> of thumb (if there are any) on the cool vs not.
>
> This line of musing all started because I have two bottles sitting
> here, a reisling and a shiraz. Should I put one in the fridge, and
> leave the other on the counter? Company is coming tomorrow, and
> probably some of them will bring other bottles.

Jack Farrell, local wine weenie says to drink them the way you like
them. I don't drink much red at all ever, but Rob puts his opened reds
on the counter while he drinks them (usually two or three days to finish
a bottle, I think.) I like white chilled - from the fridge. And I've
heard that reds can be lightly chilled to approximate that cool room
temp from the underground cellar storage stuff. I put an ice cube in my
wine if it's not cold enough to suit me.

And the 'breathing' stuff has been proven false. Don't ask for a
citation, though, because I can't.
--
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com, updated 1-3-2006, Sam I Am! and Hello!

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 04:38:30 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
>
> "Room temperature" goes back to when houses had no central heat and
> basements were in the 50 degree range in winter and even the living areas
> were maybe 60 or so degrees.

I wanted to highlight what you said, because room temperature for red
wine IS NOT 70+°. I hate drinking warm red wine.
--

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

> And the 'breathing' stuff has been proven false.

Really? I have been to many tastings and it always seemed to make a
difference. When I worked in fine dining, the wine purveyors always made
the staff do tastings before and after. It always made a difference to the
majority of the staff. There were differing opinions about whether it was
MORE necessary for young wines than more mature, but the general consensus
was a little bit a air helped all the reds. Who knows though, lots of
people believe Elvis is still alive and there was a huge conspiracy to kill
JFK, so I won't taut this as "fact."

On the other hand, unless you are dealing with expensive, older reds,
decanting IS not necessary, but is fun nonetheless.

In article >,
pgluth1 > wrote:

>
> > And the 'breathing' stuff has been proven false.
>
> Really? I have been to many tastings and it always seemed to make a
> difference. When I worked in fine dining, the wine purveyors always made
> the staff do tastings before and after. It always made a difference to the
> majority of the staff. There were differing opinions about whether it was
> MORE necessary for young wines than more mature, but the general consensus
> was a little bit a air helped all the reds. Who knows though, lots of
> people believe Elvis is still alive and there was a huge conspiracy to kill
> JFK, so I won't taut this as "fact."
>
> On the other hand, unless you are dealing with expensive, older reds,
> decanting IS not necessary, but is fun nonetheless.
>
>

I have to agree...

There are some wines that I have opened that have been slightly harsh,
but when I left the cork off at room temp. (I do prefer my wines room
temp anyway), the wine mellowed and changed flavor.

I'm a big believer in "breathing" certain wines. Especially sweet and
semi-sweet wines.

And I confess to being a dilletante. ;-)
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 13:26:35 -0600, Melba's Jammin'
> wrote:

>And the 'breathing' stuff has been proven false. Don't ask for a
>citation, though, because I can't.

Of course, since it's *not* false. All wines don't need to breathe,
for some it's even contrary, but for others it makes all the
difference. Open a bottle of Madiran (red, Southwestern France) for
instance, taste it ASAP, then let breathe for a couple of hours, taste
again.... A much better wine I can assure you.

Nathalie in Switzerland

About the only benefit I see after opening a store bought bottle of
Wine, and letting it breath, is IMO, I notice a slightly less "chemical"
flavor, and aroma when it sits a bit.

After being spoiled by many I knew who made their own wines, and wines
that I have made also myself, most of it just doesn't compare.

Wine's biggest enemies are Heat, Light, Oxygen, and Disturbance.

Just like many pastuerized, and filtered Beers (Which are essentially
ruined by this process), virtually all commercial wines go through
blending, filtration, PH adjustment, and addition of chemicals to kill
yeast etc.

Good homemade wines don't necessarily have to go through any of the
above processes, and of course don't last as long either (Particularly
in warm climates).

When I made a Cabernet, a Merlot, a Muscat, a Zinfandel, I always used
100%, I never blended grapes.

Virtually all commercial wines are blended.
While a commercial Cabernet (or whatever) Wine will be required to be a
certain percentage so it can be "called" whatever, they will usually not
be 100% Cabernet/Merlot/Zinfandel/Mission/etc. Grapes.

One reason? Cabernet, and Merlot Grapes aren't cheap! They'll blend
with a cheaper Grape, such as a Grenache, etc.

It's not necessrily a bad thing, but IMO, blending reduces a particular
Wine Grape's invididual Character.
The way I thought about it, if I'm making a Cabernet, why throw in
something else? Mark

About the only reason I personally see for decanting any commercial
wine, is, if there is some sediment at the bottom of the bottle.

Other than that, I don't really see any worthy taste improvement.
Perhaps more a visual one taking the Wine from a "Ernest+Julio" bottle,
and throwing it a nice Crystal Decanter.

For Home Made Wines, yes, that's different.
After Home Made Wines "Age" a short while in their Barrels, they need to
be "decanted" from the Barrels, and Bottled. Once bottled, and being in
Glass, not much flavor change is noted, provided the wine is stored
properly.

If Wine sits too long on it's own dead-inactive settled Yeast, it can
acquire a "Yeasty" flavor.
Mark

"pgluth1" > wrote in message
>
> On the other hand, unless you are dealing with expensive, older reds,
> decanting IS not necessary, but is fun nonetheless.

Pretty much true as wines are so filtered there will be no sediment. I make
my own wine. Some bottles will have a bit of sediment and decanting helps.
It also help in the flavor of the wine. Contrary to what another poster
said, it surely does make a difference on some wines. Making my own, I have
the luxury of comparing bottles from the same batch at the same time (and at
minimal cost) and the difference is plain to even the most casual wine
drinkers.

I'd done side by side blind testing with guest. Same wine, one decanted for
a few hours, the other opened maybe 10 minutes. What do you prefer? To a
person, they all like the smoother wine in glass A. This may not matter so
much on a glass of wine from a box or a $3 bottle, but on many, it makes
quite a difference.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/

In article >,
(Mark D) wrote:

> Wine's biggest enemies are Heat, Light, Oxygen, and Disturbance.

And Sulfates...... :-(
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

In article >,
pgluth1 > wrote:

>
> On the other hand, unless you are dealing with expensive, older reds,
> decanting IS not necessary, but is fun nonetheless.

Pretentious. :-)
--
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com, updated 1-3-2006, Sam I Am! and Hello!

On Sat, 7 Jan 2006 14:32:14 -0700, (Mark D) wrote:


>The way I thought about it, if I'm making a Cabernet, why throw in
>something else? Mark

Which means you have never tasted a good Bordeaux ...

Nathalie in Switzerland

Which means you have never tasted a good Bordeaux ...
Nathalie in Switzerland
======================================
And what is Bordeaux?

From my understanding, Bordeaux's are made from Cabernet Grapes. Or am
I wrong about this?

Yes I've tasted Bordeaux Wines. Some were acceptable, and some were
horrid.
Once a friend bought a $50 bottle of Bordeaux, and after one taste it
wound up being thrown down the sink.

No doubt that French wines can be some of the very best in the world,
but one really can take a huge crapshoot with French Wine. Spending
tons of money on a French Wine I've found doesn't necessarily guarantee
getting a good wine, and in many instances quite the contrary.

Rarely though, have I ever had a bad German Wine. Mark

On Sun, 8 Jan 2006 10:57:56 -0700, (Mark D) wrote:

>Which means you have never tasted a good Bordeaux ...
>Nathalie in Switzerland
>======================================
>And what is Bordeaux?
>
>From my understanding, Bordeaux's are made from Cabernet Grapes. Or am
>I wrong about this?

Yes. Most Bordeaux are made from an "assemblage" of Cabernet-Franc,
Cabernet-Sauvignon and Merlot.
And I took Bordeaux only as an example. Today I tasted a very nice
white dry wine from near Geneva, which was Chardonnay and Pinot blanc.
As for French wines being a lottery... I assure you, much less so than
wines from many other countries. But then, you only get what gets
exported to the US and you pay the US prices for them, so I suppose it
explains the bias.

Nathalie in Switzerland

Hi Nathalie, Yes, that is exactly correct what you say, that literally
thousands upon thousands of Wines, Beers, and Liquors that are produced
in Europe never make it to the United States.

I'm sure the extremely weathy rich can get whatever their heart's
desire, but for the average public, this isn't the case, even the most
largely stocked american Liquor Wharehouses.

I akin American Liqour Distributors as more, or less licensed "Dope
Peddlers".

They no doubt buy what they can make the most money on, and make the
biggest turnover on.

Take London Gins for example. basically all is pushed here in USA is
Beefeater, Tanqueray, Bombay, and these are considered the best. IMO,
they certainly are not. There are countless better Gins that never make
it to this country. Same with Wines, and Beers. And the same with many
Russian Vodkas.

Most Russian Vodkas imported here are not much different than Lighter
Fluid! lol Stoli, while supposedly considered a popular high quality
Vodka here, probably is considered garbage in Europe, and Russia.

I haven't seen Tuborg Beer sold in this country in decades, yet it is
sold everywhere else in the world. I wonder why that is? Tuborg was/is
a very good Beer.

In France, just as in Italy (And Germany) every little town makes their
own Beers, Wines, Liquors, etc. Most of it is never seen here by the
general public.

There must be virtual countless hundreds of
German-Belgian-Austrian-Swiss-French Beers that never make it here.

Also, too many strict laws on what, and what cannot be sold here in this
country. If a wine exceeds a certain alcohol %, then it won't be sold
in US. Same with certain beers.

Mark

Mark D wrote:
> Hi Nathalie, Yes, that is exactly correct what you say, that literally
> thousands upon thousands of Wines, Beers, and Liquors that are produced
> in Europe never make it to the United States.
>
> I'm sure the extremely weathy rich can get whatever their heart's
> desire, but for the average public, this isn't the case, even the most
> largely stocked american Liquor Wharehouses.
>
> I akin American Liqour Distributors as more, or less licensed "Dope
> Peddlers".
>
> They no doubt buy what they can make the most money on, and make the
> biggest turnover on.
>
> Take London Gins for example. basically all is pushed here in USA is
> Beefeater, Tanqueray, Bombay, and these are considered the best. IMO,
> they certainly are not. There are countless better Gins that never make
> it to this country. Same with Wines, and Beers. And the same with many
> Russian Vodkas.
>
> Most Russian Vodkas imported here are not much different than Lighter
> Fluid! lol Stoli, while supposedly considered a popular high quality
> Vodka here, probably is considered garbage in Europe, and Russia.
>
> I haven't seen Tuborg Beer sold in this country in decades, yet it is
> sold everywhere else in the world. I wonder why that is? Tuborg was/is
> a very good Beer.
>

I was buying it last year, here in Detroit...


> In France, just as in Italy (And Germany) every little town makes their
> own Beers, Wines, Liquors, etc. Most of it is never seen here by the
> general public.
>
> There must be virtual countless hundreds of
> German-Belgian-Austrian-Swiss-French Beers that never make it here.
>
> Also, too many strict laws on what, and what cannot be sold here in this
> country. If a wine exceeds a certain alcohol %, then it won't be sold
> in US. Same with certain beers.
>
> Mark
>
>


--

saerah

http://anisaerah.blogspot.com/

"Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a
disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
-Baruch Spinoza

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There
is another theory which states that this has already happened."
-Douglas Adams

Mark D > wrote:

>I akin American Liqour Distributors as more, or less licensed "Dope
>Peddlers".
>
>They no doubt buy what they can make the most money on, and make the
>biggest turnover on.

Having known a number of people in the beverage import industry I can
report that it includs some dedicated people who are devoted
to their products.

>Take London Gins for example. basically all is pushed here in USA is
>Beefeater, Tanqueray, Bombay, and these are considered the best. IMO,
>they certainly are not. There are countless better Gins that never make
>it to this country.

Can you name some of these better gins? I'd be interested.

My current favorite, Junipero, is made in the U.S.

Steve

"Steve Pope" > wrote in message
>
> Can you name some of these better gins? I'd be interested.
>
> My current favorite, Junipero, is made in the U.S.
>
> Steve

One of my favorites is Hendricks. Infused with cucumbers, it is as healthy
as eating a salad
http://www.hendricksgin.com/ Made in Scotland

Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
> "Steve Pope" > wrote in message
> >
> > Can you name some of these better gins? I'd be interested.
> >
> > My current favorite, Junipero, is made in the U.S.
> >
> > Steve
>
> One of my favorites is Hendricks. Infused with cucumbers, it is as healthy
> as eating a salad [snip link]

What in the world do 'cucumbers,' 'healthy', or 'salad' have to do with
drinking gin? -aem

Mark D wrote:

> I haven't seen Tuborg Beer sold in this country in decades, yet it is
> sold everywhere else in the world. I wonder why that is? Tuborg was/is
> a very good Beer.

I buy Tuborg regularly here in Ontario. It is good beer. Considering the
cost per can and the .5L cans, it is cheaper per unit volume than Canadian
beer.

Edwin Pawlowski > wrote:

>"Steve Pope" > wrote in message

>> Can you name some of these better gins? I'd be interested.

> One of my favorites is Hendricks. Infused with cucumbers, it
> is as healthy as eating a salad http://www.hendricksgin.com/
> Made in Scotland

I like Hendricks alright, and it is imported to the U.S.,
at least to California; most bars around here have it.

Speaking of cucumber infusions, I had one recently at the
Madrone Lounge in San Francisco.

Steve

"aem" > wrote in message
> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>> One of my favorites is Hendricks. Infused with cucumbers, it is as
>> healthy
>> as eating a salad [snip link]
>
> What in the world do 'cucumbers,' 'healthy', or 'salad' have to do with
> drinking gin? -aem

Interesting that you snipped the link that would explain the cucumbers. If I
have to explain humor to you, it is just not all that funny afterwards.
See, Hendricks in infused with cucumbers. Cucumbers are often part of a
healthy salad. following so far? Oh, never mind.

Edwin Pawlowski > wrote:

>"aem" > wrote in message

>> Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

>>> One of my favorites is Hendricks. Infused with cucumbers, it is as
>>> healthy
>>> as eating a salad [snip link]

>> What in the world do 'cucumbers,' 'healthy', or 'salad' have to do with
>> drinking gin? -aem

>Interesting that you snipped the link that would explain the cucumbers. If I
>have to explain humor to you, it is just not all that funny afterwards.
>See, Hendricks in infused with cucumbers. Cucumbers are often part of a
>healthy salad. following so far? Oh, never mind.

I'm guessing a cucumber gin is especially good in a gin Mary.

Steve
>

Having known a number of people in the beverage import industry I can
report that it includs some dedicated people who are devoted to their
products.


Can you name some of these better gins? I'd be interested.
My current favorite, Junipero, is made in the U.S.
Steve
======================================

Sure, I'll name one Gin I liked very much, better IMO than "10",
Sapphire, etc, and that was a UK Gin called Bradburns. (And it wasn't
anywhere near as expensive as the other two I mention)

After trying it, liking it, then buying a case, the distributor could no
longer get it after that, which was the owner of Sams Wines in Chicago.
Sure miss going to Sams, what a great place. Mark