"-L." > writes:

>Why not? If that's what they want to eat, they should order it. It is
>up to the host to choose the restaurant that is within his or her
>budget. I seriously don't understand why people get hung up on menu
>prices.

I think it's the idea that some people will take advantage of a host
and order the one $50 item on a menu which is mostly populated with $10
items. These are usually the people who won't host a dinner themselves.
As a host, I would prepare for people to order everything expensive, but
at the same time if I thought someone was taking advantage I might get
upset.
Then again, if I knew they were the type that would take advantage,
I'd never invite them to dinner on my dime again.
When I was an insurance broker, I got snagged into a dinner with a
client as host. I ordered a chicken salad and tea, which is what I like
to eat plus it's not too expensive. The whole night the client snarked
about how fat women (like me) "pretend" to eat healthy in public. You
just can't please some people, and I suspect Mr Client would have been
happier had I ordered an entire cow that evening.

Stacia

sarah bennett > writes:

>am I the only one who has no problem dividing a bill properly? If no one
>is treating me to a dinner, I order whatever I want, and pay for it.
>There is no way that I would split a bill evenly. Why do you guys do it
>that way?

I'm like you, but on a couple occasions I ordered what I wanted, went
to pay, and suddenly discovered someone thought he was the host and
insisted on paying for all of us. Come to think of it, it was always my
husband's family, who we will no longer see for various reasons. They
would pay and get all snarky when looking at the bill, but refuse to let
me pay for my own food.

Stacia

Dave Smith > writes:

>or a few bottles of wine. I did not object when we polished of 3/4 of a
>bottle of my Gran Marnier.
[snip]
>the Christmas tree. I guess the Chivas was too good to offer to me, but the
>even more expensive Gran Marnier was not too good for him.

Dave, after reading about your European travels and various dinners
and such in this thread, I have to say -- you have some really crappy
friends.

Stacia

"Dave Smith" > wrote

> Nancy Young wrote:
>
>> I've taken many people out to eat, and I've been taken out to
>> eat by people many times. I've seen it all. One person, I know
>> she was kinda tight for money, we were having lunch, I said,
>> I got a raise, lunch is on me, she said, Oh, good, in that case
>> I'll have an appetizer!
>
> That would have been the perfect time to rescind the offer.

Heh ... she's pretty tough to put up with sometimes. She just can't
help herself, you know she's gotta say something to get you riled.
Just looked at my menu so she didn't see what I was thinking.

nancy

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 23:39:11 -0600, Elaine Parrish wrote:

> [Sorry, but I still don't get Thai Tea.]

Ohmygod! Hush your mouff. I overdose on it whenever I get the
chance.
--

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:18:06 -0600, Elaine Parrish wrote:
>
> I love lima beans. They are my favs. I only like fresh or frozen. I can
> tolerate canned in veggie soup, but not to eat.
>
> I like them gently boiled until they are soft - with butter or bacon
> drippins - but I also like them simmered until the water thickens with the
> bean starch, but not until they are dry.
>
OK, now you're being weird... first you don't "get" Thai tea and now
you like lima beans. Odd, very very odd. LOL


--

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:46:14 -0600, Elaine Parrish >
wrote:

>
>I don't know who said what, so I clipped everybody's name (E,t <g>)
>>
>> > Example: I don't eat raw fish. I know that lots of people adore sushi
>> > bars, but I can't bring myself to try it.
>>
>
>I don't eat raw fish, either (I don't eat much fish of any kind).
>
>A friend of mine adores sushi and I like tempura well enough to get
>through an evening of her great company. I wasn't sure I was
>going enjoy sitting across the table from her, though. However, when her
>sushi plate came, there were two shrimp things (a cube of cold rice,
>shrimp on top, wrapped in a dark green weed [seaweed?}).
>
>Both the shrimp were pink. I didn't know enough about the other fish to
>know whether or not it was cooked. A little investigating proved that it
>was, too.
>
>Tee hee hee. All the folks that I know that were bragging about eating raw
>fish were either misinformed or just rattling everyone else's cage.

I assure you that when I eat sushi, the fish is raw, except for the
shrimp. The restaurant ypou went to obviously doesn't want to deal
with raw fish (has to be fresh of the day etc.) and does what my local
supermarket does, serves "cooked fish sushi" (an oxymoron IMO).

Nathalie in Switzerland

On 17 Jan 2006 09:54:15 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>
>Nathalie Chiva wrote:
>>"John_Kane wrote:
>>
>> > My sister brought up her kids the same way. This can be a very
>> >dangerous thing for the pocket book. I can remember their great uncle
>> >taking them to dinner and being a bit shocked when the oldest (10-12
>> >yr?) started with escargot and proceeded down the menu from there.
>>
>> That would be my kids. The youngest loves sauteed foie gras and
>> expensive meat cuts, rare (and adult portion, at 7....), the oldest is
>> a fan of good fish.... And both guys "favorite food" is sushi...
>>
>> Nathalie in Switzerland
>
>Thanks for the heads up, that you didn't raise your kids to have good
>manners. And you're proud of this, that explains everything... the
>acorn sure doesn't fall far from the tree... pardon me while I puke.

Puke all you will. They love that kind of stuff because *we* (their
parents) taught them the love of good food. When in a restaurant, they
will say what they want, but if I (or their father) say item X is too
expensive, they won't say a thing and they'll choose something else.

Nathalie in Switzerland

Glitter Ninja wrote:

> I think it's the idea that some people will take advantage of a host
> and order the one $50 item on a menu which is mostly populated with $10
> items.

I guess that wouldn't bother me. But I don't think I have ever hosted
anyone who would do so simply because they *could*.


These are usually the people who won't host a dinner themselves.
> As a host, I would prepare for people to order everything expensive, but
> at the same time if I thought someone was taking advantage I might get
> upset.
> Then again, if I knew they were the type that would take advantage,
> I'd never invite them to dinner on my dime again.
> When I was an insurance broker, I got snagged into a dinner with a
> client as host. I ordered a chicken salad and tea, which is what I like
> to eat plus it's not too expensive. The whole night the client snarked
> about how fat women (like me) "pretend" to eat healthy in public. You
> just can't please some people, and I suspect Mr Client would have been
> happier had I ordered an entire cow that evening.

What a jerk. And since he's a client, you can't really say anything to
him in retort...
-L.

In article >,
Nathalie Chiva > wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Jan 2006 19:46:14 -0600, Elaine Parrish >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >I don't know who said what, so I clipped everybody's name (E,t <g>)
> >>
> >> > Example: I don't eat raw fish. I know that lots of people adore sushi
> >> > bars, but I can't bring myself to try it.
> >>
> >
> >I don't eat raw fish, either (I don't eat much fish of any kind).
> >
> >A friend of mine adores sushi and I like tempura well enough to get
> >through an evening of her great company. I wasn't sure I was
> >going enjoy sitting across the table from her, though. However, when her
> >sushi plate came, there were two shrimp things (a cube of cold rice,
> >shrimp on top, wrapped in a dark green weed [seaweed?}).
> >
> >Both the shrimp were pink. I didn't know enough about the other fish to
> >know whether or not it was cooked. A little investigating proved that it
> >was, too.
> >
> >Tee hee hee. All the folks that I know that were bragging about eating raw
> >fish were either misinformed or just rattling everyone else's cage.
>
> I assure you that when I eat sushi, the fish is raw, except for the
> shrimp. The restaurant ypou went to obviously doesn't want to deal
> with raw fish (has to be fresh of the day etc.) and does what my local
> supermarket does, serves "cooked fish sushi" (an oxymoron IMO).
>
> Nathalie in Switzerland

Well, it's rather complex. Not all traditional sushi is raw -- besides
the most common preparation of shrimp, octopus is cooked, oftentimes
eel is cooked, scrambled egg is a common sushi item, etc. On the other
hand, shrimp may also be served raw (as "ama ebi") -- with the heads
then served on the side deep-fried. I'm not sure how "traditional" it
is, but lots of very good American sushi bars serve "dragon rolls" of
deep-fried soft-shell crab or similar ingredients. Salmon is quite
frequently cooked in various hand rolls, etc., etc. Sushi is all
about _emphasizing_ the unique tastes of the ingredients, and if that
means cooking them, fine. Most of the time, in most sushi bars, most
of the fish items are raw. But it is hardly a universal rule!

It is also, if well done, so damned "pretty" that I can hardly imagine
even the most squeamish of fellow diners having any problem watching
me eat the raw stuff, even if they demur on having it themselves!

What do such folks do when their fellow diners order oysters on the
half-shell as an appetizer? Do they go all green, or just look the
other way if it bothers them?

On 17 Jan 2006 09:28:58 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>
>P.Aitken wrote:
>> wrote:
>> > Nancy Young wrote:
>> >
>> > wrote
>> >>
>> >>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>>Side note: Our friends have the opposite problem. They raised their
>> >>>>kids to eat everything very early on, and now every time they go out
>> >>>>the kids want lobster and steamed mussels. :-)
>> >>>
>> >>>My sister brought up her kids the same way. This can be a very
>> >>>dangerous thing for the pocket book. I can remember their great uncle
>> >>>taking them to dinner and being a bit shocked when the oldest (10-12
>> >>>yr?) started with escargot and proceeded down the menu from there.
>> >>
>> >>I guess they hadn't gotten around to the lesson where you don't
>> >>order everything on the menu when someone else is paying?
>> >>
>> >>nancy
>> >
>> >
>> > He was making sure that they felt free to order whatever they wanted.
>> > Serves him right
>> >
>> > The cost really didn't bother him, rather he was shocked I think he was
>> > expecting the Kids Menu hamburger.
>> >
>>
>> I think it is weird to take people to dinner, offering to pay, at a
>> restaurant where a lot of the menu items are too expensive and you
>> expect your guests to somehow know they should order only the less
>> expensive items. No, guests should not order the most expensive menu
>> item, but they should be free to order items that are typical for the
>> place. If the host has a limited budget he should choose the restaurant
>> accordingly.
>
>Exactly. But I also feel it's rude for a guest to order excessively,
>where they not only order the most expensive items in each catagory but
>they order doubles on appetizers, salads, desserts, etc., and drink
>like they think you own the bar .... then when they obviously can't
>possibly eat it all the greedy *******s want to take it home... hey,
>that's my food you didn't eat, I didn't offer to buy your dinner for
>the next day. Occasionally that has happened to me, I never offer to
>treat them again, in fact I no longer associate with those types (you
>only get to do that to me once), invaribly those kind never offer to
>treat anyone, they never heard of the word reciprocity, they are
>schnorrers, low lifes not worth knowing.
>
>I also detest that when I treat for dinner any of my guests insist on
>paying the tip... I consider that the ultimate insult by which to end
>the meal... as if they are saying I can't afford it. Hey, you wanna
>show appreciation, don't think you're getting off the reciprocity hook
>with a measly tip, next time it's your turn to choose the place and
>treat everyone to dinner. And anyway it's none of anyone elses
>business how much I tip (in fact when it's my treat no one needs to see
>the tab... anyone asks they better be prepared to pay), and I certainly
>don't want any cheap ******* choosing how much my tip should be. I
>mean don't you think it's awkward announcing in front of everyone "Hey,
>l'll leave the tip... how much should I leave?" What if there were
>six of us, the tab is like $500, and I respond a C-note and schmucko is
>thinking like five bucks a head, like thirty dollars should make him
>appear flush. Geeze, the friggin' piker drank more than that. duh
>
>Sheldon
>
Your experience of people ordering enough to take home to feed
themselves for several meals and also offering to leave a tip is
foreign to me. Firstly because we don't tip in NZ. The amount on the
restaurant bill is the total bill. It is not necessary to leave tips
in NZ, though I accept you must tip in some countries. Also, for the
most part we don't tend to take doggy bags home, so that's not an
issue either. That's not to say we "never" take doggy bags home, but
it's fairly unusual to do so.

And the restaurant... I would hesitate to order the most expensive
item on the menu if someone else is paying, unless that item was only
a few dollars dearer than most items. If it were double, for example,
I'd forego it. Other than that, I'd expect to be able to order what I
actually liked, and for my guests to do the same. I would gear my
order to what others were having... if they were having three courses,
I might have two or three, depending on my appetite. I would not have
three if they were having one.

But my experience of paying for crowds is limited to special
occasions, and because they are special I don't worry too much about
the bill. I choose a restaurant for the worst-case scenario and feel
comfortable with the probable bill. If someone orders up large, the
chances are others will be light eaters and drinkers so it evens up in
the end.

But I do think you need to be sensitive to the host's wallet.

Kathy in NZ

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 22:54:21 +0100, jake >
wrote:

>
>> am I the only one who has no problem dividing a bill properly? If no one
>> is treating me to a dinner, I order whatever I want, and pay for it.
>> There is no way that I would split a bill evenly. Why do you guys do it
>> that way?
>>
>I do it because of group pressure from people who have already entered
>the stadium of semi-drunkenness (when the bill arrives) and who don't
>give nearly as much thought to budgets as I do. Or who may simply never
>have been as poor as I have been and thus have a different understanding
>of money. I feel very uncomfortable bringing the subject up (it 5:1).


I understand Jake, and the discussion came up with us several times on
group trips away, where a large number of us went out to dinner and
the non-drinkers became upset at subsidising the drinkers' bills. They
let their case be known and we divvied up the bill to suit them. It
was never a problem to me until I got sick on one trip, and became one
of the non-drinkers, and virtually a non-eater. I was astonished at my
share of the bill when I'd hardly had anything.

Yes, we do need to be more sensitive in divvying up bills, but I
assume you, like in NZ, divide the bill by the number of people,
regardless of who had what. However, if group bills are only very
occasional, I would bite the bullet and pay for the sake of peace and
harmony.

On one occasion, my bill should have been $7. My share became more
than $20, quite a difference.

Kathy in NZ

Dave Smith wrote:
> "P.Aitken" wrote:
>
> > Seriously, though, people do it because at the end of a group meal
> > people tend to forget who had how many drinks, how much each course
> > cost, and so on.
>
> And it's no coincidence that it always seems to be those who had the most who
> conveniently forget.

Boy, no kidding. I always hated the group lunches at work because the
guys would order 2 beers at $5 a pop, along with lunch, and then want
to split the tab. Inevitably, I only ordered a salad or soup special
or something and no beer, so always got the short end of the stick.
After a while, I just turned down their offer to go out, and they could
never figure out why...

-L.

"-L." > writes:
>Glitter Ninja wrote:

>> to eat plus it's not too expensive. The whole night the client snarked
>> about how fat women (like me) "pretend" to eat healthy in public. You
>> just can't please some people, and I suspect Mr Client would have been
>> happier had I ordered an entire cow that evening.

>What a jerk. And since he's a client, you can't really say anything to
>him in retort...

No, but I was astounded because the man weighed at least 50 pounds
more than I did. Since he ordered an enormous steak I guess he assumed
I would eat like him and he did seem to be truly offended that I didn't
do what he thought I should.

Stacia

Wayne Boatwright <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in
28.19:

> On Tue 17 Jan 2006 07:52:15p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Andy?
>
>> Andy <q> wrote in :
>>
>>> From several recipes the method I follow is (probably already posted)
>>> to fill a pot with eggs and fill with water to cover eggs. When the
>>> water boils, remove from stove and cover pot and let sit 12 minutes,
>>> then cool and use when needed.
>>>
>>> I usually cook four eggs at a time. Don't exactly know why.
>>>
>>> Andy
>> Out of practice.
>
> Er...habit?
>

No, I think he meant he was out of practice at posting - that's why he
posted about boiled eggs in the fussy eaters thread <g>. Nice to see you
posting again, Andy.

Rhonda Anderson
Cranebrook, NSW, Australia

Kathy in NZ wrote:
> On 17 Jan 2006 09:28:58 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:
>
>
>>P.Aitken wrote:
>>
wrote:
>>>
>>>>Nancy Young wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
> wrote
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>Side note: Our friends have the opposite problem. They raised their
>>>>>>>kids to eat everything very early on, and now every time they go out
>>>>>>>the kids want lobster and steamed mussels. :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My sister brought up her kids the same way. This can be a very
>>>>>>dangerous thing for the pocket book. I can remember their great uncle
>>>>>>taking them to dinner and being a bit shocked when the oldest (10-12
>>>>>>yr?) started with escargot and proceeded down the menu from there.
>>>>>
>>>>>I guess they hadn't gotten around to the lesson where you don't
>>>>>order everything on the menu when someone else is paying?
>>>>>
>>>>>nancy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>He was making sure that they felt free to order whatever they wanted.
>>>> Serves him right
>>>>
>>>>The cost really didn't bother him, rather he was shocked I think he was
>>>>expecting the Kids Menu hamburger.
>>>>
>>>
>>>I think it is weird to take people to dinner, offering to pay, at a
>>>restaurant where a lot of the menu items are too expensive and you
>>>expect your guests to somehow know they should order only the less
>>>expensive items. No, guests should not order the most expensive menu
>>>item, but they should be free to order items that are typical for the
>>>place. If the host has a limited budget he should choose the restaurant
>>>accordingly.
>>
>>Exactly. But I also feel it's rude for a guest to order excessively,
>>where they not only order the most expensive items in each catagory but
>>they order doubles on appetizers, salads, desserts, etc., and drink
>>like they think you own the bar .... then when they obviously can't
>>possibly eat it all the greedy *******s want to take it home... hey,
>>that's my food you didn't eat, I didn't offer to buy your dinner for
>>the next day. Occasionally that has happened to me, I never offer to
>>treat them again, in fact I no longer associate with those types (you
>>only get to do that to me once), invaribly those kind never offer to
>>treat anyone, they never heard of the word reciprocity, they are
>>schnorrers, low lifes not worth knowing.
>>
>>I also detest that when I treat for dinner any of my guests insist on
>>paying the tip... I consider that the ultimate insult by which to end
>>the meal... as if they are saying I can't afford it. Hey, you wanna
>>show appreciation, don't think you're getting off the reciprocity hook
>>with a measly tip, next time it's your turn to choose the place and
>>treat everyone to dinner. And anyway it's none of anyone elses
>>business how much I tip (in fact when it's my treat no one needs to see
>>the tab... anyone asks they better be prepared to pay), and I certainly
>>don't want any cheap ******* choosing how much my tip should be. I
>>mean don't you think it's awkward announcing in front of everyone "Hey,
>>l'll leave the tip... how much should I leave?" What if there were
>>six of us, the tab is like $500, and I respond a C-note and schmucko is
>>thinking like five bucks a head, like thirty dollars should make him
>>appear flush. Geeze, the friggin' piker drank more than that. duh
>>
>>Sheldon
>>
>
> Your experience of people ordering enough to take home to feed
> themselves for several meals and also offering to leave a tip is
> foreign to me. Firstly because we don't tip in NZ. The amount on the
> restaurant bill is the total bill. It is not necessary to leave tips
> in NZ, though I accept you must tip in some countries.

they must pay waitstaff better in NZ. Here in the US, it is legally
mandated that you do not have to pay them more than $@ and change per
hour, because they are expected to make up the rest with tips.

<snip>


--

saerah

http://anisaerah.blogspot.com/

"Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue, a state of mind, a
disposition for benevolence, confidence, justice."
-Baruch Spinoza

"There is a theory which states that if ever anybody discovers exactly
what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear
and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There
is another theory which states that this has already happened."
-Douglas Adams

sarah bennett wrote:

>
> they must pay waitstaff better in NZ. Here in the US, it is legally
> mandated that you do not have to pay them more than $@ and change per
> hour, because they are expected to make up the rest with tips.
>

There are lots of places where service and tax are included in the menu price.
What you see on the menu is what you pay. It was nice when travelling in Europe
to see prices rounded off , like 10 instead of 9.95, and the bill came back 10,
not 10 plus x% tax and y% service, just 10.

Glitter Ninja wrote:

> >the Christmas tree. I guess the Chivas was too good to offer to me, but the
> >even more expensive Gran Marnier was not too good for him.
>
> Dave, after reading about your European travels and various dinners
> and such in this thread, I have to say -- you have some really crappy
> friends.

What can I say? You get to choose your friends, and there are some people in the
world that I have chosen not to have as much to do with as others. That sort of
stinginess is a good reason to limit my exposure to them.

One time on Usenet, (Glitter Ninja) said:
> sarah bennett > writes:

> >am I the only one who has no problem dividing a bill properly? If no one
> >is treating me to a dinner, I order whatever I want, and pay for it.
> >There is no way that I would split a bill evenly. Why do you guys do it
> >that way?

> I'm like you, but on a couple occasions I ordered what I wanted, went
> to pay, and suddenly discovered someone thought he was the host and
> insisted on paying for all of us. Come to think of it, it was always my
> husband's family, who we will no longer see for various reasons. They
> would pay and get all snarky when looking at the bill, but refuse to let
> me pay for my own food.

Some of these stories are just weird! Not that I'm doubting the
word of the story-teller, but it constantly amazes me how petty
and strange people can be...


--
Jani in WA (S'mee)
~ mom, Trollop, novice cook ~

Hi
I posted a response a few days ago, but it never showed up. Anyway, DH
complains constantly that we need to eat more healthfully. He's right,
but he doesn't care for most healthful foods :-) I find that annoying.
He's allergic to chicken and I'm allergic to turkey, so that rules out
a LOT. (We also get sick from garlic, which we both used to like a lot)
He doesn't like real fish (just Gortons and whatnot) and I don't like
soup. And I don't like spicy food and DH and our son do! My family
likes whole wheat pasta, but by the time we add sauce, and usually meat
or ricotta, it's not healthful at all.

Our four year-old would like to have PB&honey, ham or shrimp every
night. He will eat chicken and turkey and any kind of fish, but
doesn't like beef!

So we (too often!!!) end up with three meals, with two on most nights!
And Zander won't eat ANY vegetables, no matter how they're glazed,
mashed, sauced or otherwise hidden. Of course I try to make items that
will have leftovers, so I am really cooking one meal per night.

(I was forced to sit at the table for HOURS many childhood nights; so
we give vitamins instead.)
Tara Danielle

One time on Usenet, (Kathy in NZ) said:

<snip>

> Also, for the
> most part we don't tend to take doggy bags home, so that's not an
> issue either. That's not to say we "never" take doggy bags home, but
> it's fairly unusual to do so.

The portion size in the the U.S. is huge and getting bigger. I haven't
eaten an entire meal in a restaurant in years -- fortunately, I like
the leftovers for lunch.

As for the whole restaurant etiquette thing, this is the kind of
stuff us gals should learn when we're dating -- don't order the
expensive item (like lobster) or you'll be expected to pay for it
in other ways... ;-)


--
Jani in WA (S'mee)
~ mom, Trollop, novice cook ~

S'mee wrote:

> > I'm like you, but on a couple occasions I ordered what I wanted, went
> > to pay, and suddenly discovered someone thought he was the host and
> > insisted on paying for all of us. Come to think of it, it was always my
> > husband's family, who we will no longer see for various reasons. They
> > would pay and get all snarky when looking at the bill, but refuse to let
> > me pay for my own food.
>
> Some of these stories are just weird! Not that I'm doubting the
> word of the story-teller, but it constantly amazes me how petty
> and strange people can be...

It does seem to do weird things to people. I split the bill based on my
relationship with the people I am with. If I am out with my wife, she pays or
I pay. There are some people that I take out occasionally, son and his
girlfriend, sisters in law, aunts and uncles, and I treat. If we are out with
good friends we usually just split the bill evenly. If I had something a lot
more expensive than the others I would pay more. In most other situations I
prefer separate bills or to just pay for what I ordered. I don't see anything
petty about that and don't see what anyone would have to object to with that.
It's not like it is going to cost them.

I worked on the road for close to 30 years and ate lunches, dinners and coffee
breaks in restaurants with a lot of different co-workers. I ran into my share
of tight wads, who even though they were claiming more on their expense
accounts than they actually paid, would try to get away with paying less than
their share.

We had one co-worker who was notorious for ordering large meals and having no
money to pay for them, and not telling us until it was time to pay. It got to
the point where we made him check his wallet to make sure he could afford to
pay for his own. He got me once when we went out for lunch. I had the $2.75
lunch special, soup, fries, sandwich and coffee. It was a great deal, and
really good food. He ordered fish and chips with extra fish, soup, a large soft
drink and a sundae. His bill came close to $10, and he had no money. I ended
up paying for his lunch, which cots 3 times as much as mine. He claimed it on
his expense account, and despite several requests for repayment, he never did
pay be. I was down $10 and he ended up $10 and a meal ahead.

Needless to say, the next time he was short at the cash register I didn't have
the money to cover his bill.

S'mee wrote:
> One time on Usenet, (Kathy in NZ) said:
>
> <snip>
>
> > Also, for the
> > most part we don't tend to take doggy bags home, so that's not an
> > issue either. That's not to say we "never" take doggy bags home, but
> > it's fairly unusual to do so.
>
> The portion size in the the U.S. is huge and getting bigger. I haven't
> eaten an entire meal in a restaurant in years -- fortunately, I like
> the leftovers for lunch.
>
> As for the whole restaurant etiquette thing, this is the kind of
> stuff us gals should learn when we're dating -- don't order the
> expensive item (like lobster) or you'll be expected to pay for it
> in other ways... ;-)

What kind of tude is that... that's something a hooker would say...
going through life with a price on their butt. The only difference
between lobster and burger with your attitude is not what you are, just
negotiating the price.

Only thing ordering the most expensive things on the menu would get
from a first date with me is not getting asked out a second time. In
fact your willingness to sell your tail for a lobster tail wouldn't get
you anywhere either... just means you're so easy I'd probably catch
something.

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 16:35:57 GMT, (S'mee) wrote:

>One time on Usenet, (Glitter Ninja) said:

>
>Some of these stories are just weird! Not that I'm doubting the
>word of the story-teller, but it constantly amazes me how petty
>and strange people can be...

My Sis was a "food pusher".
When people would visit her, she would PUSH snacks,
meals, seconds...thirds.... desserts...etc..etc.

Then, after they'd leave,
she'd complain about how much they ate !

????
<rj>

Glitter Ninja wrote:
> The whole night the client snarked
> about how fat women (like me) "pretend" to eat healthy in public. You
> just can't please some people, and I suspect Mr Client would have been
> happier had I ordered an entire cow that evening.
>
> Stacia
>

Rudeness comes in many flavours, but they all have the same stench.

OP.Aitken wrote:
> jake wrote:
>
>> Nancy Young wrote:
>>
>>> "jake" > wrote
>>>
>>>
>>>>> People who don't pay attention to that wind up being the
>>>>> ones bitched about who order expensive meals all the time
>>>>> then just split the bill with the others at the table, apparently
>>>>> unaware everyone is chipping in for their meal.
>>>>> nancy
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I have subsidised many nights out because I"ll eat one course rather
>>>> than 2 or 3 and because I don't drink alcohol most of the time. I
>>>> have found it difficult to express I thought it was too much to
>>>> expect from me.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I understand that, and it's been a matter of discussion here many
>>> times. People should be aware when someone is ordering a lot
>>> less or that they are spending a lot more and should chip in
>>> accordingly. Somehow there are people oblivious to this.
>>>
>> Yes. It amazes me. But I am more money conscious people than most
>> people. It is simply beyond em that people can spend money without
>> thinking. My savings account makes me feel good. I suspect theirs don't.
>>
>
> People have all sorts of different attitudes about money and it's
> important for there to be mutual respect. Note the "mutual" - the frugal
> person has to respect the generous person as well as vice versa.

I believe I am both frugal and generous. Friends receive gifts for no
reason etc. I do think you need to consider each other's styles. And
when both can't be accommodated at the same time, find compromises or
alternatives. But there were always be situations where that doesn't
work entirely. I have seen people put poor people in expensive
situations. They stopped coming to certain gatherings. Not a good thing.
>
> We've had this problem come up with certain friends. We love them
> dearly, but they are not nearly as well off as we are and are much more
> penny-conscious. When we go to eat together, they are only willing to go
> to really cheap places where we find the food, service, and ambience to
> be dreadful. We would be happy to treat them at a nicer place but they
> refuse - misplaced pride I think. I understand where they are coming
> from but I would much prefer that they accept our genuine offer.
>

That sounds like a tricky situation. I think I would get away from
restaurants situations and replace it with home dinners, going to the
movies, hiking together, whatever.

> A lot of people have trouble accepting generosity. It's a shame, because
> offering generosity and accepting it are two sides of the same coin.

Beautifully said. Once, a friend accepted a dinner so gracefully it wasn
an aesthetic experience to me.
>
> Peter
>
> When you are on your death bed will you fondly remember your savings
> account? I think it would be better to fondly remember the times you
> were generous with your friends.
>
I think I can have it both ways My savings are not for dying, they
have value to me as we speak. They mean time, safety, freedom, and
having option, feeling independent. I like that.
I am aware such things can have very different meanings to others and
sometimes I wish I felt more at ease using their ways. But when I try
their ways, it doesn't have the desired effect. Maybe someday it will.

Dave Smith wrote:

> jake wrote:
>
>
>>BTW, this happens around male friends. Never around female friends. I am
>>happy to pay for people who have considerably less money than I. I'd
>>rather spend a nice evening with them than worry about money. Especially
>>if otherwise they couldn't participate in certain things. But that's a
>>whole different issue, isn't it.
>
>
> That's a nice thought once in a while. I have certainly done my share of
> entertaining where I have provided food and drink for people knowing that it
> would not likely be repaid in kind, but I enjoyed their company and it seemed
> a small price to pay. However...... it is a different matter when it comes
> to going out to a bar or restaurant on a regular basis and not only paying
> their share, but paying the mark-up. Better to entertain at home.
>
> I have had some eye openers. We were friends with a couple who liked to drink
> and party (especially the male half), but who did not have the means. If they
> came here he drank a lot, and if we went there I had to take a case of beer
> or a few bottles of wine. I did not object when we polished of 3/4 of a
> bottle of my Gran Marnier. Two weeks later we were at his place and he
> apologized that he had nothing to offer. There was a bottle of Chivas under
> the Christmas tree. I guess the Chivas was too good to offer to me, but the
> even more expensive Gran Marnier was not too good for him.
>
I think such things happen to all of us every now and then. I doesn't
feel good, does it.

(S'mee) writes:
>One time on Usenet, (Glitter Ninja) said:

>> I'm like you, but on a couple occasions I ordered what I wanted, went
>> to pay, and suddenly discovered someone thought he was the host and
>> insisted on paying for all of us. Come to think of it, it was always my
>> husband's family [ ... ]

>Some of these stories are just weird! Not that I'm doubting the
>word of the story-teller, but it constantly amazes me how petty
>and strange people can be...

Er, actually, I probably shouldn't use any example involving my
in-laws as something that might plausibly happen. My in-laws are ugly,
petty, smallminded people.

Stacia

sf wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:18:06 -0600, Elaine Parrish wrote:
>>
>> I love lima beans. They are my favs. I only like fresh or frozen. I
>> can tolerate canned in veggie soup, but not to eat.
>>
>> I like them gently boiled until they are soft - with butter or bacon
>> drippins - but I also like them simmered until the water thickens
>> with the bean starch, but not until they are dry.
>>
> OK, now you're being weird... first you don't "get" Thai tea and now
> you like lima beans. Odd, very very odd. LOL

I don't "get" people who don't like lima beans! I love them. But like
Elaine, they have to be fresh or frozen. Since I can't find fresh hulled
limas I prefer the big frozen Fordhook ones. They sort of "burst" in your
mouth when you bite into them Add some butter, a little thyme, salt &
pepper - they are great!

I do "get" Thai tea, at least Thai iced tea. I just don't care much for
tea.

Jill

jmcquown wrote:
> sf wrote:
> > Elaine Parrish wrote:
> >>
> >> I love lima beans. They are my favs. I only like fresh or frozen. I
> >> can tolerate canned in veggie soup, but not to eat.
> >>
> >> I like them gently boiled until they are soft - with butter or bacon
> >> drippins - but I also like them simmered until the water thickens
> >> with the bean starch, but not until they are dry.
> >>
> > OK, now you're being weird... first you don't "get" Thai tea and now
> > you like lima beans. Odd, very very odd. LOL
>
> I don't "get" people who don't like lima beans! I love them. But like
> Elaine, they have to be fresh or frozen.

What's wrong with dried... they're wonderful for soup... you're the big
soup maven...

well, I kinda agree with him. Nothing on that list particularly
appeals to me either. What ever happened to chocolate chip cookies or
chocolate cake or even apple pie? Brownies aren't bad but not many
people know how to make them so they aren't hard on the edges and
undercooked in the middle.

chula

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, Puester wrote:

> Elaine Parrish wrote:
>
> >
> > I remember when I was a kid my dad teaching me what a host is supposed to
> > say and what a guest is supposed to listen for in a restaurant setting,
> > so, that all parties were comfortable with the experience. Those "old
> > rules" were there for a reason and were so valuable. It made the
> > difference in a comfortable, pleasant evening and a very strained one.
> >
> > I don't know if people just don't know these things any more or if they
> > just don't teach their kids anything any more. When I was dating, back
> > when dirt was new, very few men of my generation knew the protocols.
>
>
> Sorry, Elaine, but I have never heards of the protocols, either.
> I do know enough to pick up clues from hy host's behavior, but please
> let us in on your father's teaching--what is a host spupposed to say and
> what does it really mean?
>
> gloria p
>

Hi Gloria,

In a perfect world <g>... The host sets all the parameters - just like
he/she would do if entertaining in his/her own home. In one's own home, a
good host would never say, "Do you want an appetizer? I wasn't having
one, but if you want one, I'll run out and get you one."
( and a good guest
would never say, "Well as a matter of fact, I do. How soon can you be
back?" <g>).

There would just be an appetizer(s) and a guest would take it
or pass. So, being out at a restaurant is no different. The idea here is
not just about the money. It's making everyone feel comfortable so that it
is an enjoyable experience. Money is a factor. Just as if he were
entertaining at home, the host has the right to set some parameters. An
invitation to dinner is not, necessarily, a blank check for the guest and
shouldn't be a blank check forced on the host. In order to strike a
comfortable balance, the host should take charge -as he would do at home.
If he wants to offer an appetizer, he should do so. If not, he should be
clear to eliminate by skipping over it.

The short version is:

A.) The good host always announces what he is going to
have and gives the guest(s) ample time to look over the menu.[the good guest
makes his/her selection based on the price of the host's choice. (back in
the 1960s when Dad was teaching me, it was acceptable to go above the
host's price choice by no more than 50 cents <g>).]

B.) The good host always orders first - always. [the good guest stays
within the guidelines of the host]

The longer version:

The host would, generally, choose a restaurant
with which he(she) is familiar (not necessary, but helpful to him(her)).

Generally, prices vary a great deal and then there are many options, such
as cocktails, appetizers, wine, dessert, and after-dinner drinks in
addition to entrees. Some upscale places don't include "basics" such as
salad or bread.

A good guest doesn't want to be extravagant, yet one doesn't want to order
a small salad and a glass of water when the host intends a more pleasant
experience.

Once seated and while waiting for the waitperson, the host would announce
whether or not he will be having a cocktail, and if so, what cocktail that
will be, and whether or not he intends on having wine with dinner.

The size of the group really determines this. With a party of 2 or 3, it
is easy to order a bottle of wine with dinner and choose something that
compliments all orders, but with a party of 8 or 10 or so, it might
easier for each to order wine by the glass or carafe or half carafe -
whatever is available - that will compliment each meal, as the group
decides - or order several different kinds.

The host might say something like [to a party of 2 or 3 or so], "I would
enjoy a cocktail before dinner. [the guest either confirms or rejects] I
thought we might order a bottle of wine with dinner, if that is
agreeable. [guest(s) confirms or rejects] [this tells the guest not to
order a glass of wine as a "cocktail"].

Drinks ordered, the good host talks about the food.

If the host wants to include an appetizer:
"I think we should start with an appetizer (he looks at guest to get a
nod or a pass).

The good host offers some suggestions:

I enjoy "A" (which happens to be an appetizer for one), but "B" (an
appetizer for two or more) is also very good. The "C" is good and so are
X,Y, and Z. (The host should have clearly defined a price range here).
Which ones sound good to you? (to one or a small group). [This is the time
for the guest(s) to speak up, honestly, about preferences.] A little
exchange and a choice is made - either for indy appetizers or one to
share.

For larger groups, a host might suggest "a couple of appetizers for the
table" then make a couple of suggestions. [with each suggestion, each
guest "votes" with a silent nod (or no head shake) or verbally, as is
appropriate for the setting, as the host looks at him/her]. The number of
appetizers depends on the number of guests. "Friends" would probably be
more verbal and participate more, than say a business dinner with the
"big boss" as host or dinner with a group of "aquaintances" - business or
pleasure.

For the main course:

All the host need do is make his choice and announce it.

It is nice if he uses the "appetizer" approach so that the guest(s) can be
looking at the menu.

The host should be sure to give ample time for his guest(s) to go over the
menu - even if he needs to ask the wait person to come back. A good host
does not make conversational "small talk" during this time as the
guest(s) is(are) focusing on the menu. He should
*always* order first and then let the wait person go around the table.

This basic procedure should be followed for each phase, such as
cocktails, dessert, and after dinner drinks, etc.

It really does make for a pleasant evening. It's right up there with slow
dancing with a man that knows that the hand he has on your back is there
to give signals and guide and the arm that is holding your hand is to be a
solidly stable rudder so the woman doesn't have to guess where his feet
are going. sheesh.

In hindsight, my dad wasn't nearly as stoopid as I thought when I was a
teenager. go figure! <VBG>

Elaine, too

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:30:26 GMT, sarah bennett
> wrote:

>Kathy in NZ wrote:
>> On 17 Jan 2006 09:28:58 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:

>> Your experience of people ordering enough to take home to feed
>> themselves for several meals and also offering to leave a tip is
>> foreign to me. Firstly because we don't tip in NZ. The amount on the
>> restaurant bill is the total bill. It is not necessary to leave tips
>> in NZ, though I accept you must tip in some countries.
>
>they must pay waitstaff better in NZ. Here in the US, it is legally
>mandated that you do not have to pay them more than $@ and change per
>hour, because they are expected to make up the rest with tips.
>

>saerah

Yes waitstaff are paid a proper wage. That's not to say it's a high
wage, but they earn more than the legal minimum hourly rate and don't
rely on tips. New Zealanders don't want to see tipping become a way of
life here. People are paid to do their job. They shouldn't have to be
paid extra to do it willingly. Tourists are advised tipping is
unnecessary everywhere and to everyone here. That's not to say
waitstaff wouldn't like to be tipped, they would, but only because
it's icing on the cake. I am only referring here to NZ, not the
necessity to tip in the US.

Kathy in NZ

On Tue, 17 Jan 2006, jake wrote:

>
> > am I the only one who has no problem dividing a bill properly? If no one
> > is treating me to a dinner, I order whatever I want, and pay for it.
> > There is no way that I would split a bill evenly. Why do you guys do it
> > that way?
> >
> I do it because of group pressure from people who have already entered
> the stadium of semi-drunkenness (when the bill arrives) and who don't
> give nearly as much thought to budgets as I do. Or who may simply never
> have been as poor as I have been and thus have a different understanding
> of money. I feel very uncomfortable bringing the subject up (it 5:1).
>

I agree that you could keep a running total of your part and put that in
and let them make up the rest.

The easiest thing to do is: when the waitperson approaches the table, say,
"I'd like a separate ticket, please".

If you're sharing a pizza, announce: I'll toss in my share of the pizza.
Do the math and toss your share of the pizza into the center of the table.

If they rib you about it, announce, jovially, when I start drinking as
much as you do, I'll pay as much as you do.

or

"Gee, do I look like the booze subsidy? ha ha.

or

haha. I'm only trying to help you guys out. I feel guilty helping to get
you drunk everytime we come here by subsidizing your booze bill.

Or (As we say in the South), I didn't take you to raise (haha). If you're
gonna drink so much, you're going to have to pay for it yourself.

Blow it off and move on - insisting on your own ticket.
If they can't deal with it, but you feel put upon by paying extra, find
some new friends.

I'm old and blunt. Life is too short to feel "buyer's remorse" when you've
let yourself be put in a situation that isn't right by people who are
doing the wrong thing. Stand up for what is fair here. If they have a
problem with it, then they aren't "friends" worth having. If you value
their brand of friendship more than the money it costs you, then accept
that as the price of the friendship and don't allow any buyer's remorse.

Elaine, too

In article . com>,
wrote:

> well, I kinda agree with him. Nothing on that list particularly
> appeals to me either. What ever happened to chocolate chip cookies or
> chocolate cake or even apple pie? Brownies aren't bad but not many
> people know how to make them so they aren't hard on the edges and
> undercooked in the middle.
>
> chula

<cough>
--
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com, updated 1-15-2006, RIP Connie Drew

In article
>,
Elaine Parrish > wrote:
(Daddy's Menu Ordering When Someone Else is Buying class snipped)
>
> It really does make for a pleasant evening. It's right up there with slow
> dancing with a man that knows that the hand he has on your back is there
> to give signals and guide and the arm that is holding your hand is to be a
> solidly stable rudder so the woman doesn't have to guess where his feet
> are going. sheesh.
>
> In hindsight, my dad wasn't nearly as stoopid as I thought when I was a
> teenager. go figure! <VBG>
>
> Elaine, too

Are you sure you and Miss Manners aren't half-sisters? Do you REALLY
know where your dad was on some of those nights when he wasn't home?
"-) Go, Dad!! Your father's grace and manner remind me of a woman with
whom I once worked: When we went to lunch and someone else was picking
up the check, she'd always order large (with enough to take home) with a
laughing, "Well, since Tim is buying, I'll have _FITB_." Your story
reminds me of hers because it was an opposite attitude and behavior. :-/

I believe I'll pass this along to Beck for lessons with Sam. Thanks,
Elaine.
--
http://www.jamlady.eboard.com, updated 1-15-2006, RIP Connie Drew

On Thu 19 Jan 2006 06:26:22a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Melba's
Jammin'?

> In article
> >,
> Elaine Parrish > wrote:
> (Daddy's Menu Ordering When Someone Else is Buying class snipped)
>>
>> It really does make for a pleasant evening. It's right up there with
>> slow dancing with a man that knows that the hand he has on your back is
>> there to give signals and guide and the arm that is holding your hand
>> is to be a solidly stable rudder so the woman doesn't have to guess
>> where his feet are going. sheesh.
>>
>> In hindsight, my dad wasn't nearly as stoopid as I thought when I was a
>> teenager. go figure! <VBG>
>>
>> Elaine, too
>
> Are you sure you and Miss Manners aren't half-sisters? Do you REALLY
> know where your dad was on some of those nights when he wasn't home?
> "-) Go, Dad!! Your father's grace and manner remind me of a woman with
> whom I once worked: When we went to lunch and someone else was picking
> up the check, she'd always order large (with enough to take home) with a
> laughing, "Well, since Tim is buying, I'll have _FITB_." Your story
> reminds me of hers because it was an opposite attitude and behavior.
> :-/
>
> I believe I'll pass this along to Beck for lessons with Sam. Thanks,
> Elaine.

Barb, many Southerns were and still are raised this way. I was, too, as
were all of my cousins, and it's the way they have raised/taught their
children. There's a sensibility in the South that isn't quite like
anywhere else. A place where you still hear "yes, m'am? and "no, m'am"
*always* with your elders, regardless your own age.

--
Wayne Boatwright Õ¿Õ¬
________________________________________

Okay, okay, I take it back! UnScrew you!

wrote:

> well, I kinda agree with him. Nothing on that list particularly
> appeals to me either. What ever happened to chocolate chip cookies or
> chocolate cake or even apple pie? Brownies aren't bad but not many
> people know how to make them so they aren't hard on the edges and
> undercooked in the middle.

There is nothing wrong with apple pie or chocolate chip cookies, except
that we did not have any on hand. The brownies were not hard on the
outside and undercooked in the middle , though some of the Black Forest
bars were . I had a dozen options for dessert, some of them had been
brought by his mother.

My problem was more with the way he vocalized his disappointment, whining
like a 3 year old. He was over 30. The same nephew had a similar reaction
when he came for my mother's birthday in the summer. I had made a fresh
peach pie, which my mother prefers to birthday cake, and his brother, who
is a chef, had brought a nice cake. The picky eater whine " I don't like
peach pie" and when I suggested the cake " I'm not eating anything he
made". There is no pleasing this kid anyway, so I have no interest in
wasting my time trying. I prefer to go to the effort for people who enjoy
it. The pie was excellent and the other nephew's cake was incredible.

"Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote

> On Thu 19 Jan 2006 06:26:22a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Melba's
> Jammin'?

>> Elaine Parrish > wrote:
>> (Daddy's Menu Ordering When Someone Else is Buying class snipped)

>> I believe I'll pass this along to Beck for lessons with Sam. Thanks,
>> Elaine.
>
> Barb, many Southerns were and still are raised this way. I was, too, as
> were all of my cousins, and it's the way they have raised/taught their
> children.

Apparently, many of us Northerners were, as well, but I do need to
point out that Elaine thinks her hosts are cheap and can't afford
dinner.

(smile) nancy

"Kathy in NZ" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 15:30:26 GMT, sarah bennett
> > wrote:
>
>>Kathy in NZ wrote:
>>> On 17 Jan 2006 09:28:58 -0800, "Sheldon" > wrote:
>
>>> Your experience of people ordering enough to take home to feed
>>> themselves for several meals and also offering to leave a tip is
>>> foreign to me. Firstly because we don't tip in NZ. The amount on the
>>> restaurant bill is the total bill. It is not necessary to leave tips
>>> in NZ, though I accept you must tip in some countries.
>>
>>they must pay waitstaff better in NZ. Here in the US, it is legally
>>mandated that you do not have to pay them more than $@ and change per
>>hour, because they are expected to make up the rest with tips.
>>
>
>>saerah
>
> Yes waitstaff are paid a proper wage. That's not to say it's a high
> wage, but they earn more than the legal minimum hourly rate and don't
> rely on tips. New Zealanders don't want to see tipping become a way of
> life here. People are paid to do their job. They shouldn't have to be
> paid extra to do it willingly. Tourists are advised tipping is
> unnecessary everywhere and to everyone here. That's not to say
> waitstaff wouldn't like to be tipped, they would, but only because
> it's icing on the cake. I am only referring here to NZ, not the
> necessity to tip in the US.
>
> Kathy in NZ


It's the same in Australia. Any form of employment gets a proper wage.

Jen