Hi group-

Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old and recently divorced, and sick and tired of
drawing house plans.

I currently live near and work in Gainesville, FL. and because I want to
stay close to my 7 year old daughter, I'd like the school I go to be located
in Florida also. Unfortunately, neither the University of Florida or Santa
Fe Community College offer any sort of culinary programs whatsoever.
Therefore, my choices have been narrowed down to these two possibilities
that I'd like opinions on. Please keep in mind that cost of the school is
not really important, as my Dad has always promised me that he'd put me
through school, anytime, anywhere.

1. Orlando Culinary Academy / Le Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts, I like this
place because they offer a Bachelor's degree in culinary arts.
2. The Art Institute of Tampa - Florida / Associate's (only) in Culinary
Arts. These folks have been aggressively pursuing me since I filled out a
little form on their website, which kind of puts me off.

So, does anyone here have firsthand experience with either one of these
schools? I've worked (non fast food) restaurants before in several
capacities, but never at the level that I'd be at after attending one of
these programs, so I have a very basic idea of what I'm getting myself into
crazy hours, tons of stress, no life, etc... and I'm willing to accept
that, as my life right now is not at all what I thought it'd be at this
stage of my travels.

Thanks y'all !


--
TigBits
(o)Y(o)

TigBits wrote:

> Hi group-
>
> Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
> degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
> culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old and recently divorced, and sick and tired of
> drawing house plans.
>
> I currently live near and work in Gainesville, FL. and because I want to
> stay close to my 7 year old daughter, I'd like the school I go to be located
> in Florida also. Unfortunately, neither the University of Florida or Santa
> Fe Community College offer any sort of culinary programs whatsoever.
> Therefore, my choices have been narrowed down to these two possibilities
> that I'd like opinions on. Please keep in mind that cost of the school is
> not really important, as my Dad has always promised me that he'd put me
> through school, anytime, anywhere.
>
> 1. Orlando Culinary Academy / Le Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts, I like this
> place because they offer a Bachelor's degree in culinary arts.
> 2. The Art Institute of Tampa - Florida / Associate's (only) in Culinary
> Arts. These folks have been aggressively pursuing me since I filled out a
> little form on their website, which kind of puts me off.
>
> So, does anyone here have firsthand experience with either one of these
> schools? I've worked (non fast food) restaurants before in several
> capacities, but never at the level that I'd be at after attending one of
> these programs, so I have a very basic idea of what I'm getting myself into
> crazy hours, tons of stress, no life, etc... and I'm willing to accept
> that, as my life right now is not at all what I thought it'd be at this
> stage of my travels.
>
> Thanks y'all !
>
> --
> TigBits
> (o)Y(o)

Before you jump why not investigate the profession. The job can be a LOT of
hours.

Lou

> >
> > Thanks y'all !
> >
> > --
> > TigBits
> > (o)Y(o)
>
> Before you jump why not investigate the profession. The job can be a LOT
of
> hours.
>
> Lou
>

Hi-

I have looked into this pretty deeply. I already work 60-75 hours a week now
split between my regular day drafting job, and my moonlighting at home
drawing yet more houses. I've been keeping these hours for the better part
of 10 years now, and it's just getting old. I love food, love preparing
menus, get along well with people, I have a good sense of what a large
kitchen needs to run on a daily basis, and I can work long hours, after all,
I'm still pretty young!

I would welcome input from others who've made the leap from a profession
that they've become burnt out of to one in the culinary field. I'm not
looking to own my own restaurant, or even run a professional kitchen right
out of school. My short term goal after graduating would be to apply my
newly honed skills inan apprentice capacity, or hell -even a busboy in an
upper class resort setting in Southwest Florida, and see where that leads
me.

I am realistic about this change. I know I won't be the next Emeril (thank
God), or even that bad ass mofo Rick Bayless :-), as soon as I get a
diploma. I realize long hours and extreme dedication and hard work are
required to even succeed at a level that will keep me above the poverty
line. I don't want to be the next Food Network star - I just want to make
people happy with my food, run a tight kitchen and hopefully have a little
bit of fun while doing it.


--
TigBits
(o)Y(o)

TigBits wrote:

> > >
> > > Thanks y'all !
> > >
> > > --
> > > TigBits
> > > (o)Y(o)
> >
> > Before you jump why not investigate the profession. The job can be a LOT
> of
> > hours.
> >
> > Lou
> >
>
> Hi-
>
> I have looked into this pretty deeply. I already work 60-75 hours a week now
> split between my regular day drafting job, and my moonlighting at home
> drawing yet more houses. I've been keeping these hours for the better part
> of 10 years now, and it's just getting old. I love food, love preparing
> menus, get along well with people, I have a good sense of what a large
> kitchen needs to run on a daily basis, and I can work long hours, after all,
> I'm still pretty young!
>
> I would welcome input from others who've made the leap from a profession
> that they've become burnt out of to one in the culinary field. I'm not
> looking to own my own restaurant, or even run a professional kitchen right
> out of school. My short term goal after graduating would be to apply my
> newly honed skills inan apprentice capacity, or hell -even a busboy in an
> upper class resort setting in Southwest Florida, and see where that leads
> me.
>
> I am realistic about this change. I know I won't be the next Emeril (thank
> God), or even that bad ass mofo Rick Bayless :-), as soon as I get a
> diploma. I realize long hours and extreme dedication and hard work are
> required to even succeed at a level that will keep me above the poverty
> line. I don't want to be the next Food Network star - I just want to make
> people happy with my food, run a tight kitchen and hopefully have a little
> bit of fun while doing it.
>
> --
> TigBits
> (o)Y(o)

SAVE those thoughts, put them in either a letter or a resume. Very nicely
written.

Lou

On 2006-02-03, TigBits > wrote:

> people happy with my food, run a tight kitchen and hopefully have a little
> bit of fun while doing it.

You should do a Google groups archives search. This subject has been
flogged to death over the years by this and other food groups. The
consensus is, if you've got money to burn, go for it. Go to a
prestigious cooking school. But, it will get you only a slight edge
on all the other hard core chef wannabes that can't afford to go or
went to other less high profile schools like college and community
college programs. What's the count now? Over one thousand cooking
schools in the US, alone. Your starting wage in the real world will
still be at the burger flipper/fry cook level and you'll still have to
put in several years apprenticing to tempermental chefs to get real
world experience and build a resume. You have to remember you are
competing with people who want to be chefs so badly, the will
apprentice for free.

You say you have restaurant experience already. YOu may want to
consider cutting to the chase and using it to find a beginning
position under an established chef and starting there. Save you a lot
of time and money.

nb

TigBits wrote:
> 1. Orlando Culinary Academy / Le Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts, I like this
> place because they offer a Bachelor's degree in culinary arts.
> 2. The Art Institute of Tampa - Florida / Associate's (only) in Culinary
> Arts. These folks have been aggressively pursuing me since I filled out a
> little form on their website, which kind of puts me off.
>
> TigBits
> (o)Y(o)

First thing you need to do is get rid of that stupid screen-name if
you expect serious replies.

I attended that Art Institute of Ft. Lauderdale back in the late-80's
and got my associates in Visual Communications/Graphic Arts... I wasn't
overly impressed with their program once I completed it but the Art
Institute of Tampa may be different.
I think this is something you're going to have to figure out on your
own as each school i'm sure approaches their cooking programs
differently- you need to go with the one that best suites your plans...
talk to a school rep. and share your goals- see what each school has to
say, then go from their. Kev

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 16:10:27 +0000, TigBits wrote:


> 1. Orlando Culinary Academy / Le Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts

I have heard that an Ivy League education is cheaper..and that they
saddle a lot of want to be chefs with some serious loans that are hard to
pay off.. and the available jobs for new grads are not that good. Check
the completion stats.. large drop out rate.

Try working in a restaurant first. I totally believe in following you
dreams..some dreams turn into nightmares. Go slow and don't quit your day
job.

As others have said..it is a tough business. I don't think the grass is
greener there. Sorry for the sermon..3 kids 2 in college..sermons
just flow...(: Good luck!

notbob wrote:
> On 2006-02-03, TigBits > wrote:
>
>> people happy with my food, run a tight kitchen and hopefully have a
>> little bit of fun while doing it.
>
> You should do a Google groups archives search. This subject has been
> flogged to death over the years by this and other food groups. The
> consensus is, if you've got money to burn, go for it. Go to a
> prestigious cooking school. But, it will get you only a slight edge
> on all the other hard core chef wannabes that can't afford to go or
> went to other less high profile schools like college and community
> college programs. What's the count now? Over one thousand cooking
> schools in the US, alone. Your starting wage in the real world will
> still be at the burger flipper/fry cook level and you'll still have to
> put in several years apprenticing to tempermental chefs to get real
> world experience and build a resume. You have to remember you are
> competing with people who want to be chefs so badly, the will
> apprentice for free.
>
> You say you have restaurant experience already. YOu may want to
> consider cutting to the chase and using it to find a beginning
> position under an established chef and starting there. Save you a lot
> of time and money.
>
> nb

No joke, nb! Nothing says experience like experience. No way would I think
I could walk in with a degree and command a great salary and work less than
75 hours a week.

I can't tell if the OP means he/she is willing to work that many hours *or*
if he/she is ready to stop working those types of hours. News which is not
news - professional chefs work incredible hours and until/if you run your
own restaurant you aren't free to just come and go. You're there overseeing
everything from morning to night.

Purely IMHO, age 35 is a bit late to be getting into the professional
cooking game. The OP mentioned Emeril and Rick Bayless; they didn't just
spring from the foam and come out cooking. Whatever your opinon of these
folks and those who went before them, they put in a lot of hours in the
school of hard knocks before anyone ever heard of them.

Jill

In article >, wrote:

> TigBits wrote:

> > Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
> > degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
> > culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old and recently divorced, and sick and tired of
> > drawing house plans.
> >
> > I currently live near and work in Gainesville, FL. and because I want to
> > stay close to my 7 year old daughter, I'd like the school I go to be located
> > in Florida also. Unfortunately, neither the University of Florida or Santa
> > Fe Community College offer any sort of culinary programs whatsoever.
> > Therefore, my choices have been narrowed down to these two possibilities
> > that I'd like opinions on. Please keep in mind that cost of the school is
> > not really important, as my Dad has always promised me that he'd put me
> > through school, anytime, anywhere.
> >
> > 1. Orlando Culinary Academy / Le Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts, I like this
> > place because they offer a Bachelor's degree in culinary arts.
> > 2. The Art Institute of Tampa - Florida / Associate's (only) in Culinary
> > Arts. These folks have been aggressively pursuing me since I filled out a
> > little form on their website, which kind of puts me off.
> >
> > So, does anyone here have firsthand experience with either one of these
> > schools? I've worked (non fast food) restaurants before in several
> > capacities, but never at the level that I'd be at after attending one of
> > these programs, so I have a very basic idea of what I'm getting myself into
> > crazy hours, tons of stress, no life, etc... and I'm willing to accept
> > that, as my life right now is not at all what I thought it'd be at this
> > stage of my travels.

> Before you jump why not investigate the profession. The job can be a LOT of
> hours.

Sounds like he's already factored that in. He's also factored in the
outrageous cost (not that I know what those two places charge), and it
doesn't matter since he isn't paying for it.

What concerns me is his statement about "level that I'd be at after
attending one of these programs". My understanding is that right after
you get out, this diploma is worthless as far as money and
responsibility. My understanding and experience is very limited, and
doesn't apply to your coast. Still, you ought to check this out. The
people who run kitchens don't like culinary academy graduates. They
will attempt to give you the same level of responsibility and money as
the kid who just fell out of high school with no idea what to do, except
earn enough to buy food and pay the rent.

I've tried to argue with my daughter about this. Her roommate is a
student at CCA (California Culinary Academy). It's US$20000 (yup, four
zeroes) for nine months. But her friend knows what she's doing. OK.
Not my job, and certainly not my daughter's job. The sad thing is that
there is an excellent culinary academy right here at the junior college,
which I assume is really cheap.

--
Dan Abel

Petaluma, California, USA

On 2006-02-03, jmcquown > wrote:

> Purely IMHO, age 35 is a bit late to be getting into the professional
> cooking game. The OP mentioned Emeril and Rick Bayless; they didn't just
> spring from the foam and come out cooking. Whatever your opinon of these
> folks and those who went before them, they put in a lot of hours in the
> school of hard knocks before anyone ever heard of them.

I don't think starting late is a problem. Better late than never. But
yes, even the biggies paid their dues. Emeril was no overnight
wonder, having worked as a kid in the industry, completing a
university culinary program, and paying his dues in France before even
trying to get a good position in his home country. There are
exceptions, to be sure, but not many. Jumping right into the trenches
would also be a good way to discover if it's really what one wants. I
attended a small cooking school and discovered it was not, but then
I'm weird.

nb

(TigBits)WROTE:
Hi group-
Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in
the culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old and recently divorced, and sick and
tired of drawing house plans.
I currently live near and work in Gainesville, FL. and because I want to
stay close to my 7 year old daughter, I'd like the school I go to be
located in Florida also. Unfortunately, neither the University of
Florida or Santa Fe Community College offer any sort of culinary
programs whatsoever. Therefore, my choices have been narrowed down to
these two possibilities that I'd like opinions on. Please keep in mind
that cost of the school is not really important, as my Dad has always
promised me that he'd put me through school, anytime, anywhere.
1. Orlando Culinary Academy / Le Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts, I like this
place because they offer a Bachelor's degree in culinary arts.
2. The Art Institute of Tampa - Florida / Associate's (only) in Culinary
Arts. These folks have been aggressively pursuing me since I filled out
a little form on their website, which kind of puts me off.
So, does anyone here have firsthand experience with either one of these
schools? I've worked (non fast food) restaurants before in several
capacities, but never at the level that I'd be at after attending one of
these programs, so I have a very basic idea of what I'm getting myself
into crazy hours, tons of stress, no life, etc... and I'm willing to
accept that, as my life right now is not at all what I thought it'd be
at this stage of my travels.
Thanks y'all !-----------------------------------------------------
RESPONSE: Your post bought back memories of a few year ago when working
with dog groomers @ a dog day care center.

Woman came in and took position as a general helper in the day care side
after she had quit her job at the main corporate headquarters for K-Mart
in Troy Michigan.
She left behind a $70,000 plus numerous benefits job because of high
level stress & burn out.

Owners of day care did verify her stats and hired her for minimum wage,
no health insurance, for walking dogs outside with pooches not breaking
away from leashes and getting hit by cars plus picking up dog poo &
making sure dogs didn't kill one another during their play time inside.

This woman claimed she always wanted to work with animals and the day
care was near her home.
I personally thought this girl was krazy as hell dumping a job with
excellent pay & benefits in this day of age to work in a zoo.

Really don't know if she's still employed at the day care as I started
to feel like bolting into traffic myself place was driving me stir
krazy.

35 years old and willing to work as a bus boy I hope you don't end up
regretting this as I have had my share of that job title years ago when
a lot younger than you, it was back breaking unthankful job.

TigBits wrote:
My short term goal after graduating would be to apply my
> newly honed skills inan apprentice capacity, or hell -even a busboy in an
> upper class resort setting in Southwest Florida, and see where that leads
> me.


You don't need culinary school to get a job as a busboy. I know you've
said that you've researched this, and I believe you, but there's still
nothing like getting into a professional kitchen and getting your
proverbial feet wet. Part of your research should be working 6 months
in the front of the house as a waiter. Even with little or no
experience you should be able to get a job somewhere waiting tables.
The next part of your research should be working 6 months or more in the
back of the house. This will be harder to get without experience, but
you ought to be able to find something washing dishes or, better yet for
your purposes, prepping. Bakeries sometimes take on apprentices, and
that's good food experience too.


For me, the biggest surprise about the food industry was the people I
was working with. I had the worst time fitting in and working as a team
with people I didn't get along with or feel like friends with.


I don't know anything about the schools you mentioned but would like to
know more. I hope you'll keep the group informed on what you find out
and what you decide.


--Lia

TigBits wrote:
> Hi group-
>
> Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
> degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
> culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old.

I know this is going to sound horrendously brutal but it's the truth,
you are too old... by at least 15 years, more like 20. The truth is
that at your age people go to culinary school to pick up a few pointers
to improve their homemaker cooking skills some but will never be any
good as a pro. If you've had years of professional cooking experience
previously and want the degree to add to your resume then go for it...
otherwise you'll be wasting your time and money, because I seriously
doubt you'll last a week at any job above burger flipper. To first
enter the culinary field at 35 to become a professional cook is
tantamont to taking your first ballet lesson at 35 in hopes of becoming
a prima ballerina. For either ideally one must begin at about age
five. You can be the best home cook of everyone you know but put you
in a professional kitchen you'd not know up from down. Home cooking is
as different from professional cooking as night from day... the reason
many food tv celebrity cooks appear so clumsy and inept is because they
are pandering to home cooks, when in fact they themselves stink at home
style cooking. People who cook for a living rarely cook at home, and
they laugh at all the rage in expensive designer kitchens, because
none, absolutely NONE are designed for professional cooking.

Sheldon

kevnbro wrote:
> TigBits wrote:
> > folks have been aggressively pursuing me
> >
> > TigBits
> > (o)Y(o)
>
> First thing you need to do is get rid of that stupid screen-name if
> you expect serious replies.

Hey, don't knocker it... even if she can't cook a lick, once she gets
her TigBits in the door she's got it made. hehe

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 20:02:22 -0800, Sheldon wrote:

>
> kevnbro wrote:
>> TigBits wrote:
>> > folks have been aggressively pursuing me
>> >
>> > TigBits
>> > (o)Y(o)
>>
>> First thing you need to do is get rid of that stupid screen-name if
>> you expect serious replies.
>
> Hey, don't knocker it... even if she can't cook a lick, once she gets
> her TigBits in the door she's got it made. hehe

I was thinking TigBits .. formula1addict .. was a man.. my bad.

ms. tonya wrote:
> RESPONSE: Your post bought back memories of a few year ago when working
> with dog groomers @ a dog day care center.
>
> Woman came in and took position as a general helper in the day care side
> after she had quit her job at the main corporate headquarters for K-Mart
> in Troy Michigan.
> She left behind a $70,000 plus numerous benefits job because of high
> level stress & burn out.
>
> Owners of day care did verify her stats and hired her for minimum wage,
> no health insurance, for walking dogs outside with pooches not breaking
> away from leashes and getting hit by cars plus picking up dog poo &
> making sure dogs didn't kill one another during their play time inside.
>
> This woman claimed she always wanted to work with animals and the day
> care was near her home.
> I personally thought this girl was krazy as hell dumping a job with
> excellent pay & benefits in this day of age to work in a zoo.

I retired from a 15 year career as a molecular biologist in '99 and
eventually decided to work as a vet assistant/groomer at a feline
specialty hospital. I simply wanted out of the rat race, liked animals
and wanted to learn the vet business. My salary, prior, was well above
70K, and I had stock options, etc., was published and have patents.

I worked my way up to vet tech and ward manager and eventually quit
that job when I decided I wanted to focus more on my family. I do it
again in a heartbeat - loved so many things about it.

Money isn't everything.

>
> Really don't know if she's still employed at the day care as I started
> to feel like bolting into traffic myself place was driving me stir
> krazy.
>
> 35 years old and willing to work as a bus boy I hope you don't end up
> regretting this as I have had my share of that job title years ago when
> a lot younger than you, it was back breaking unthankful job.

Some people find the Zen in anything they do. A job doesn't have to be
glorious to be important. Without the bus boys, we wouldn't have clean
dishes, clean tables and clean dining spaces. I appreciate the "bus
boys" of the workforce - those people who work behind the scenes at min
wage doing meanial - but incredibly important - tasks.

If I didn't didn't have a good person to wash my glassware when I was a
scientist, all of my experiments would have failed. Never belittle the
importance of the "little guy".

-L.

Sheldon wrote:

> TigBits wrote:
> > Hi group-
> >
> > Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
> > degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
> > culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old.
>
> I know this is going to sound horrendously brutal but it's the truth,
> you are too old... by at least 15 years, more like 20. The truth is
> that at your age people go to culinary school to pick up a few pointers
> to improve their homemaker cooking skills some but will never be any
> good as a pro. If you've had years of professional cooking experience
> previously and want the degree to add to your resume then go for it...
> otherwise you'll be wasting your time and money, because I seriously
> doubt you'll last a week at any job above burger flipper. To first
> enter the culinary field at 35 to become a professional cook is
> tantamont to taking your first ballet lesson at 35 in hopes of becoming
> a prima ballerina. For either ideally one must begin at about age
> five. You can be the best home cook of everyone you know but put you
> in a professional kitchen you'd not know up from down. Home cooking is
> as different from professional cooking as night from day... the reason
> many food tv celebrity cooks appear so clumsy and inept is because they
> are pandering to home cooks, when in fact they themselves stink at home
> style cooking. People who cook for a living rarely cook at home, and
> they laugh at all the rage in expensive designer kitchens, because
> none, absolutely NONE are designed for professional cooking.
>
> Sheldon

And all this is based on personal experience???

TigBits wrote:
> Hi group-
>
> Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
> degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
> culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old and recently divorced, and sick and tired of
> drawing house plans.
>
> I currently live near and work in Gainesville, FL. and because I want to
> stay close to my 7 year old daughter, I'd like the school I go to be located
> in Florida also. Unfortunately, neither the University of Florida or Santa
> Fe Community College offer any sort of culinary programs whatsoever.
> Therefore, my choices have been narrowed down to these two possibilities
> that I'd like opinions on. Please keep in mind that cost of the school is
> not really important, as my Dad has always promised me that he'd put me
> through school, anytime, anywhere.
>
> 1. Orlando Culinary Academy / Le Cordon Bleu Culinary Arts, I like this
> place because they offer a Bachelor's degree in culinary arts.
> 2. The Art Institute of Tampa - Florida / Associate's (only) in Culinary
> Arts. These folks have been aggressively pursuing me since I filled out a
> little form on their website, which kind of puts me off.
>
> So, does anyone here have firsthand experience with either one of these
> schools? I've worked (non fast food) restaurants before in several
> capacities, but never at the level that I'd be at after attending one of
> these programs, so I have a very basic idea of what I'm getting myself into
> crazy hours, tons of stress, no life, etc... and I'm willing to accept
> that, as my life right now is not at all what I thought it'd be at this
> stage of my travels.
>
> Thanks y'all !
>
>
> --
> TigBits
> (o)Y(o)
I've never even been to Florida.

I'd suggest going to some good restaurants in your area and talking to
the chefs. People tend to like to talk about themselves . They may
have graduated from one or the other of your suggested schools. Even if
they have not, they may know about them, may even teach there
occasionally, and most likely have some students or grads working with
them. Twenty minutes or so over a coffee could give you some useful
information and they may even suggest some alternatives that you are
not aware of.

I would also sugggest that you do not discount the 'industrial' side of
cooking. There are a lot of places ranging from universities to jails
that require top-notch food service people with cooking and management
ability. There is less room for creativity but on the othe hand I
suspect that that the money is as good as in the restaurant trade and
the hours and stress ratios are better and very likely the bosses are
better Restaurant owners are not always noted for their great labour
relations. I don't know this however as my experience was all in the
industrial side.

BTW ignore the nay-sayers who say it is too late to change careers. A
friend of mine went back to grad school for a Ph.D and a successful
academic career in her 50's. She beat her daughter to the doctorate by
about 6 months
John Kane, Kingston ON Canada

Check out St. Augustine. They have a trade school there that has a
commercial culinary arts course. Not to expensive and fairly close to
Gainesville.

-L writes:
> >
> > I know this is going to sound horrendously brutal but it's the truth,
> > you are too old...
> >
> > Sheldon
>
> And all this is based on personal experience???

-Life experience.

I wouldn't be harping on personal experience if I were you, -Lewinsky.

Sheldon wrote:
> -L writes:
>
>>>I know this is going to sound horrendously brutal but it's the truth,
>>>you are too old...
>>>
>>>Sheldon
>>
>>And all this is based on personal experience???
>
> -Life experience.

<LOL> Looking at professional cooking from the outside. Great
experience... Bwah...

> I wouldn't be harping on personal experience if I were you

Couldn'ta said it better myself.

Pastorio

wrote:
> Sheldon wrote:
>
>>TigBits wrote:
>>
>>>Hi group-
>>>
>>>Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
>>>degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
>>>culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old.
>>
>>I know this is going to sound horrendously brutal but it's the truth,
>>you are too old... by at least 15 years, more like 20. The truth is
>>that at your age people go to culinary school to pick up a few pointers
>>to improve their homemaker cooking skills some but will never be any
>>good as a pro.

Utter nonsense. I've employed more than a few cooks who began their
culinary lives in their 30's and older. One graduated from school at 51.

>>If you've had years of professional cooking experience
>>previously and want the degree to add to your resume then go for it...
>>otherwise you'll be wasting your time and money, because I seriously
>>doubt you'll last a week at any job above burger flipper.

From your extensive experience in food service...? Moron.

Your serious doubts are worthless since you have never worked in a
restaurant, never operated one, never owned one. Outsider looking in.

>>To first
>>enter the culinary field at 35 to become a professional cook is
>>tantamont to taking your first ballet lesson at 35 in hopes of becoming
>>a prima ballerina. For either ideally one must begin at about age
>>five.

Absolute idiocy. Five, indeed... for culinary skills. Ridiculous.

>>You can be the best home cook of everyone you know but put you
>>in a professional kitchen you'd not know up from down.

Um that would be the reason to go to school. You obviously wouldn't know
that, never having been to culinary school.

>>Home cooking is
>>as different from professional cooking as night from day... the reason
>>many food tv celebrity cooks appear so clumsy and inept is because they
>>are pandering to home cooks, when in fact they themselves stink at home
>>style cooking. People who cook for a living rarely cook at home, and
>>they laugh at all the rage in expensive designer kitchens, because
>>none, absolutely NONE are designed for professional cooking.

Poor empty-shirt Sheldon still doing that poser thing. Sound and fury
signifying...

>>Sheldon
>
> And all this is based on personal experience???

Of course not. He's one of those armchair experts.

Here's the real deal. Go for whatever pumps you up. If it's a passion,
follow it. If it's not, walk the other way. Foodservice is hard,
demanding work, decently paid if you're higher up in the order of
things, and long hours. Suggestions:
1) read "kitchen confidential" by Tony Bourdain. Read "The making of a
chef" and "The soul of a chef" by Michael Ruhlman. See if it resonates
with you.
2) go talk to lots of people who are doing what you see yourself doing
after graduation. Don't just pick their brains, wring them dry. It's a
life-change you're talking about.
3) see how important it is to you to be working in a kitchen by taking a
part-time job in one. Any job. Any kitchen. Work there three months. Get
used to not seeing your daughter.
4) Read this column I wrote about opening your own restaurant. Lots of
it applies if you just want to work in the field rather than owning:
-------------------------------------------
You don’t really want to open a restaurant
There is this notion abroad that, because you can cook a good dinner at
home for some friends, you can operate a restaurant. Let me say this
clearly. Unmistakably. With no room for misinterpretation. You’re crazy
to even entertain the notion.
Seems a bit harsh, wouldn't you say? I mean, we're reasonably bright
people and we should be able to deal with something as simple as a
restaurant. It isn't rocket science, exactly. How difficult can it be?
This from George Orwell in his novel, "Down and Out in Paris and London:"
"... would be the fearful noise and disorder during rush hours. It is
something so different from the steady work in a shop or a factory that
it looks at first sight like mere bad management. But it is really quite
unavoidable ... by its nature it comes in rushes and cannot be
economized. You cannot, for instance, grill a steak two hours before it
is wanted; you have to wait till the last moment, by which time a mass
of other work has accumulated, and then do it all together, in frantic
haste. The result is that at meal times everyone is doing two men's
work, which is impossible without noise and quarreling. Indeed, the
quarrels are a necessary part of the process, for the pace would never
be kept up if everyone did not accuse everyone else of idling. It was
for this reason that during the rush hour the whole staff cursed like
demons."
Got it? Restaurants are no place for civilized people to work in. Let's
paint a small picture here. It's based on the past few weeks in a
kitchen where I'm the chef and a couple decades that qualified me to be
doing it. (Chef, in classic terminology means he's the guy who runs the
kitchen - the head cook, final culinary authority, and the person who
manages the operation. Nowadays, it too often means someone who only
cooks and, while that's certainly an honorable profession I've spent a
good portion of my life doing, it isn't the full meaning.) .
In the kitchen, every kitchen, a kind of system develops based on the
needs of the kind of business it is. People come to restaurants and
clubs to dine. That assumes they want their food soon. Along with
everyone else who just walked through the door. The servers cruise
serenely through the dining room (the good ones) and attend to the
diners while the kitchen staff takes raw and partially-cooked foods to
the final state for delivery to customers.
Step with me through the swinging doors to the kitchen. The first thing
you notice is the noise. Kitchens are loud because of the velocity
everyone moves at. Pans bang against stovetops, spoons against pot
walls. Dish machines hiss and splash and steam up eyeglasses. Empty
saute pans thrown into the metal bucket for the dishwasher to come pick
up. Whisks beating a kind of musical time to the soprano notes from the
deep fryer and the kerchunk as the ice machine drops another hundred
cubes. There's a rhythm to it all and it's a fast, hard, loud one. Cooks
and prep people barking orders to each other.
Then the wall of heat hits you. Kitchens are very hot. In the middle of
a meal service time, it can get over 100F back there. You stand facing a
deep fryer with 50 pounds of fat at 365 degrees Fahrenheit. Next to that
is the charbroiler and the surface grates can get up near 800F. The
flattop grill is cooler, just 350F. The burners on the stove - 8 of them
- for saute pans to finish the vegetables and entrees. Odd double
boilers with hot sauces and broths, steam softly hissing out of the
bottom pan. The overhead range hood roars as it tries to suck hot air
away from the cook line faster than it can be heated.
There's little small talk. People are telling each other what needs to
be done and they offer status reports. It doesn't sound polite. Everyone
speaks loudly because of the background noise and they usually sound
angry because they're almost shouting. If you don't have a
well-developed sense of urgency, the whole process looks like anarchy.
In fact, it's more like a raucous ballet on a wet, slippery floor.
Tickets are coming in faster than they can call them. As each
arrives, the cook calls out to the others what's on the ticket so they
can do their parts. What kind of salad. Which appetizer - "app" in the
trade. Soup? Entree? Accompaniments? Special requests or needs? Got it.
Next ticket.
The language is abrupt and without the social lubricants. No pleases
and thank yous in the heat of battle. You won't hear, "Bob, may I please
have two New York strips medium rare, a baby filet medium well and three
ribeyes medium. I also need two snapper specials and would appreciate
the four pasta carbonaras as soon as you can get to them. Thank you."
"Certainly, Gary. And the grilled portabella mushrooms are nearing
completion and should be done in less than five minutes."
What you hear is this machine gun shout, "two newyorks midrare... baby
filet midwell... three ribs mid... two snappers... four carbonaras."
Forty-three words compressed to thirteen. And so it goes. "Gary; ports
in 5." Nineteen words to 4. And it shows no sign of letting up since
there are a bunch of checks hanging up to be done.
But in the meantime, a server just rang in three tables within two
minutes. Since he couldn't take the orders that fast, it's obvious he's
been holding them and is counting on the kitchen to cooperate in getting
the earlier tickets done so they could ship them first. He's screaming
for apps on a ticket with a time stamp barely two minutes old.
It's too, too easy to get caught up in the frenzy of the moment. The
biggest trick is to know when to sprint and when to stop to regroup.
Taking that small second's pit stop to make sure everything is covered.
Doing it all on the fly, the passion carrying the process. Shouts and
seeming rudeness the hallmark of the moment. And when it's past, to
revert to the normal, seemingly rude discourse that's still somehow
respectful of the others that made the process a team exercise. The
smiles that say "We did it again and we did it well."
Anyone who belongs in the kitchen will learn those lessons. Everyone
else needs to content themselves with enjoying the results of the process.
So, this restaurant you want to open...

On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 11:28:24 -0500, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>1) read "kitchen confidential" by Tony Bourdain. Read "The making of a
>chef" and "The soul of a chef" by Michael Ruhlman. See if it resonates
>with you.

Also, read Becoming A Chef, by Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page.

Christine

In article >,
"Bob (this one)" > wrote:

> Absolute idiocy. Five, indeed... for culinary skills. Ridiculous.

Mom let me fry my first egg at age 5. :-)

She helped me of course.......
--
Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Bob (this one)" > wrote:
>
>> Absolute idiocy. Five, indeed... for culinary skills. Ridiculous.
>
> Mom let me fry my first egg at age 5. :-)
>
> She helped me of course.......
> --
> Om.

Probably told this befo
Went to a neighbor's house (far away - in the country) for a visit. A girl
my age (about 5) asked me if I wanted to go into the kitchen with her and
make some eggs. It was a wooden stove -- no heat was on -- and there was a
large cast-iron skillet filled 2/3 full of bacon grease. She cracked some
eggs into it and we stood there watching for them to cook. I'll never
forget it.
Dee Dee

wrote:
>
> BTW ignore the nay-sayers who say it is too late to change careers. A
> friend of mine went back to grad school for a Ph.D

A person can sit in a classroom at any age.

> and a successful academic career in her 50's.

Define successful at academia... if you mean teacher say so, quit
equivacating... anyone with a degree in anything can very easily obtain
a degree in education, just takes sitting on ones tuchis for a few more
credits... but of course I don't for one second believe any of your
fercocktah fairytale, were what you said true you'd have indicated a
degree in *what*. Liar!

Cooking requires innate talent, like music, athletics, art... you must
be born with the natural ability, you can't acquire it... all that
formal instruction can do is help add some grooming to what one can
already do very well, probably learn no more than than a litany of
snooty french expressions. A cooking school can no sooner teach
someone with no natural talent to cook than all the piano lessons in
the world can teach someone with a tin ear to become a concert pianist.
Homemakers with their JOC, their condensed/dried soup collections, and
their foodtv are not the kind of cooks that can earn anything more than
one could from a PTA bake sale. And even those who do possess natural
ability, chances of becoming a world renowned chef are the same as some
kid with a guitar and a dream becoming a rock star. The kid with the
guitar and the dream can join the many thousands who are lucky to get
his trio a steady weekend gig doing bar mitzvahs , and the typical
cooking school graduate, if they have any natural talant at all, are
lucky to land a job sweating away twelve hour shifts like a circus
monkey for peanuts at one of the chains like olive garden. And that's
the truth. And I do know from personal experience, very intimate
personal experience... I never personally owned a restaurant but most
everyone in my family, including my parents, has owned many, bakeries
too, a couple quite notable. I've worked in bakeries, kosher bakeries,
and kosher delis, since pre-school, at four I knew to make kreplach, at
five my grandmother put me in charge of the fermented pickles and
mustard, by six my granfather had me pickling corned beef and put me in
charge of maintaining the tubing for real draft beer in wooden barrels.
Very few of yoose has ever tasted real beer... that pish vasser brewed
in stainless steel ain't beer.

"Bob (this one)" wrote:

snipped due to length <sigh>

> Anyone who belongs in the kitchen will learn those lessons. Everyone
> else needs to content themselves with enjoying the results of the process.
>

Great post. Will save. Snipped so 'net police stay calm.

Lou

notbob wrote:

> I don't think starting late is a problem. Better late than never. But
> yes, even the biggies paid their dues. Emeril was no overnight
> wonder, having worked as a kid in the industry, completing a
> university culinary program, and paying his dues in France before even
> trying to get a good position in his home country. There are
> exceptions, to be sure, but not many. Jumping right into the trenches
> would also be a good way to discover if it's really what one wants. I
> attended a small cooking school and discovered it was not, but then
> I'm weird.


Nope nb, you are just practical :-)

--
Best
Greg

jmcquown wrote:

> notbob wrote:
> > You should do a Google groups archives search. This subject has been
> > flogged to death over the years by this and other food groups. The
> > consensus is, if you've got money to burn, go for it. Go to a
> > prestigious cooking school. But, it will get you only a slight edge
> > on all the other hard core chef wannabes that can't afford to go or
> > went to other less high profile schools like college and community
> > college programs. What's the count now? Over one thousand cooking
> > schools in the US, alone. Your starting wage in the real world will
> > still be at the burger flipper/fry cook level and you'll still have to
> > put in several years apprenticing to tempermental chefs to get real
> > world experience and build a resume. You have to remember you are
> > competing with people who want to be chefs so badly, the will
> > apprentice for free.
> >
> > You say you have restaurant experience already. YOu may want to
> > consider cutting to the chase and using it to find a beginning
> > position under an established chef and starting there. Save you a lot
> > of time and money.
> >
> > nb
>
> No joke, nb! Nothing says experience like experience. No way would I
think
> I could walk in with a degree and command a great salary and work less
than
> 75 hours a week.


No kidding. This culinary school thing is getting to be a real racket...


> I can't tell if the OP means he/she is willing to work that many hours
*or*
> if he/she is ready to stop working those types of hours. News which is
not
> news - professional chefs work incredible hours and until/if you run your
> own restaurant you aren't free to just come and go. You're there
overseeing
> everything from morning to night.


All too true. A few years back a chef friend finally got her "dream" - her
own restaurant. Got great reviews, had a good business, had a great
location (in Chicago's Old Town). She was lucky if she got one day a week
off. The jig was eventually up when a neighborhood restaurateur - real
estate mogul bought the building and leased it to a pal - no more resto for
my friend :-|

The attrition rate for new restos is *very* high, in her case the real
estate factor came into play. So even if you have a successful place, there
is no guarantee it will last...

She now works for an established independent steak house; she still works
very hard but she gets two days a week off, plus great pay (profit sharing)
and benefits. It's stable, and in the f&b bizz that counts for a LOT. Her
bosses love her and allow her plenty of latitude for "experiment", e.g. she
can try out new dishes if she wants...


> Purely IMHO, age 35 is a bit late to be getting into the professional
> cooking game. The OP mentioned Emeril and Rick Bayless; they didn't just
> spring from the foam and come out cooking. Whatever your opinon of these
> folks and those who went before them, they put in a lot of hours in the
> school of hard knocks before anyone ever heard of them.
>


Cooking is one of those "fire in the belly" type of things, you gotta have
that drive or you'll be verily disappointed...

Just because you "enjoy" cooking doesn't necessarily mean that it would be a
wise career move (I mean just because you're good in bed doesn't mean that
you should do sex for a living, right? ;-)

One chef (in NYC, forget who) wrote that some of these new cooking school
graduates (mostly middle - aged men who had left lucrative professional
careers to attend culinary school) would come onto the job the first day all
bright - eyed and bushy - tailed. At the end of that first day he would
look at some of them and as he said "You could look at their eyes and tell
that the dream had died...".

To anyone contemplating a culinary career I'd recommend getting a dish -
washing gig in a restaurant, ANY restaurant. If you can hack it for six
months only *then* should you consider a cooking career...

--
Best
Greg

Dan Abel wrote:

> What concerns me is his statement about "level that I'd be at after
> attending one of these programs". My understanding is that right after
> you get out, this diploma is worthless as far as money and
> responsibility. My understanding and experience is very limited, and
> doesn't apply to your coast. Still, you ought to check this out. The
> people who run kitchens don't like culinary academy graduates.


From what I know (what people in the bizz tell me) that's pretty true...many
consider that culinary school grads haven't "paid their dues" career - wise.
They generally will have more respect for someone who worked their way up
from the bottom (waitressing or washing dishes...), culinary school grads
are somewhat derided because many have an "entitlement" attitude - and such
an attitude is lethal in the food bizz.


They
> will attempt to give you the same level of responsibility and money as
> the kid who just fell out of high school with no idea what to do, except
> earn enough to buy food and pay the rent.


You are spot - on...

I know any number of culinary school grads who are still making ten bux or
so an hour. And the jobs that they have (salad prep, pantry person, etc.)
won't even allow them the luxury of paying rent unless they have roommates,
in their 30's 40's they are still living like college students on a strict
budget (median rent for a small one - bedroom apartment in the Chicago metro
area is about a thousand bux per month, on either coast it's higher; you
could I 'spose work in smaller burgs but that ten bux an hour would probably
be TOP pay in such places).

--
Best
Greg

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> You don't need culinary school to get a job as a busboy. I know you've
> said that you've researched this, and I believe you, but there's still
> nothing like getting into a professional kitchen and getting your
> proverbial feet wet. Part of your research should be working 6 months
> in the front of the house as a waiter. Even with little or no
> experience you should be able to get a job somewhere waiting tables.
> The next part of your research should be working 6 months or more in the
> back of the house. This will be harder to get without experience, but
> you ought to be able to find something washing dishes or, better yet for
> your purposes, prepping. Bakeries sometimes take on apprentices, and
> that's good food experience too.


All excellent advice...


> For me, the biggest surprise about the food industry was the people I
> was working with. I had the worst time fitting in and working as a team
> with people I didn't get along with or feel like friends with.
>


Yup, it's a "team" working environment, unless you are head honcho you MUST
sublimate any individual urges and work as one with your co - workers. To
use an analogy, you are a worker bee in a bee hive, worker bees that don't
work are cast out of the hive and killed or starved.. If you can't blend in
you will be toast (and BURNT toast...and VERY soon too)...

--
Best
Greg

> wrote:

> Sheldon wrote:
>
> > TigBits wrote:
> > > Hi group-
> > >
> > > Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete
180
> > > degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree
in the
> > > culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old.
> >
> > I know this is going to sound horrendously brutal but it's the truth,
> > you are too old... by at least 15 years, more like 20. The truth is
> > that at your age people go to culinary school to pick up a few pointers
> > to improve their homemaker cooking skills some but will never be any
> > good as a pro. If you've had years of professional cooking experience
> > previously and want the degree to add to your resume then go for it...
> > otherwise you'll be wasting your time and money, because I seriously
> > doubt you'll last a week at any job above burger flipper. To first
> > enter the culinary field at 35 to become a professional cook is
> > tantamont to taking your first ballet lesson at 35 in hopes of becoming
> > a prima ballerina. For either ideally one must begin at about age
> > five. You can be the best home cook of everyone you know but put you
> > in a professional kitchen you'd not know up from down. Home cooking is
> > as different from professional cooking as night from day... the reason
> > many food tv celebrity cooks appear so clumsy and inept is because they
> > are pandering to home cooks, when in fact they themselves stink at home
> > style cooking. People who cook for a living rarely cook at home, and
> > they laugh at all the rage in expensive designer kitchens, because
> > none, absolutely NONE are designed for professional cooking.
> >
> > Sheldon
>
> And all this is based on personal experience???


It's all absolutely true, even the point about chefs rarely cooking at
home...I know several accomplished chef friends, they have fairly bare
refrigerators (but they have nice olio and vinegars and groovy wine and
likker collections - as chefs they are often gifted with nice free stuff by
the liquor and fancy food reps who visit their workplaces). At home they
subsist on fairly plebian fare, e.g. generic haute dawgs, Stouffers frozen
mac 'n cheese, crockpot chili/soup, Tombstone pizza, chop suey take - out,
etc...one of these folx has NEVER even used his oven, it's pristine and
factory - new after having had it for five years.

They are extremely slender because basically since they are around food
constantly they just never have a big appetite...food reminds them of, well,
WORK :-)

They'll make a big production out of entertaining about two times a year,
usually around the holidays (they can get prime meats, etc. and it's always
divine). Believe me the last thing they want to do when they haul their
tired butts home is to spend ANY time in the kitchen (and they both have
professional house cleaners do their house cleaning too, they do enough
cleaning at work...)

[One year I snagged entrance to the Chicago Restaurant Show at McCormick
Place (this is closed to the general public, it's only open to
"professionals" in the food trade). I excitedly called one of them up,
saying it'd be a fun thing to do. She said "WHAT!?" That's the LAST thing
I'd want to do on my day off!" Lol...]

OTOH I enjoy cooking for them and so entertain them fairly often. I'll make
them whatever they want, and it's usually everyday hearty fare like fried
chicken, Swiss steak, gumbo, simple stir - fries, etc. that they request.
When I first met them I was all intimidated about cooking for them but my
fears were baseless, they consider me a fairly accomplished cook...and
knowing them cooking is definitely NOT something I'd ever consider doing for
a living.

--
Best
Greg

Christine Dabney wrote:

> On Sat, 04 Feb 2006 11:28:24 -0500, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
> >1) read "kitchen confidential" by Tony Bourdain. Read "The making of a
> >chef" and "The soul of a chef" by Michael Ruhlman. See if it resonates
> >with you.
>
> Also, read Becoming A Chef, by Andrew Dornenburg and Karen Page.
>


Several weeks ago the Wednesday "Dining and Wine" section of the _New York
Times_ had an article by one of their writers about his one - week
"underground" gig as a waiter at a Boston area resto. Very eye - opening
and *very* brutal experience for him...

You could pull it from the $$ archive of the paper if you're interested or
find it at a library...

--
Best
Greg

Gregory Morrow wrote:
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Sheldon wrote:
>>
>>
>>>TigBits wrote:
>>>
>>>>Hi group-
>>>>
>>>>Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete
>
> 180
>
>>>>degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree
>
> in the
>
>>>>culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old.
>>>
>>>I know this is going to sound horrendously brutal but it's the truth,
>>>you are too old... by at least 15 years, more like 20. The truth is
>>>that at your age people go to culinary school to pick up a few pointers
>>>to improve their homemaker cooking skills some but will never be any
>>>good as a pro. If you've had years of professional cooking experience
>>>previously and want the degree to add to your resume then go for it...
>>>otherwise you'll be wasting your time and money, because I seriously
>>>doubt you'll last a week at any job above burger flipper. To first
>>>enter the culinary field at 35 to become a professional cook is
>>>tantamont to taking your first ballet lesson at 35 in hopes of becoming
>>>a prima ballerina. For either ideally one must begin at about age
>>>five. You can be the best home cook of everyone you know but put you
>>>in a professional kitchen you'd not know up from down. Home cooking is
>>>as different from professional cooking as night from day... the reason
>>>many food tv celebrity cooks appear so clumsy and inept is because they
>>>are pandering to home cooks, when in fact they themselves stink at home
>>>style cooking. People who cook for a living rarely cook at home, and
>>>they laugh at all the rage in expensive designer kitchens, because
>>>none, absolutely NONE are designed for professional cooking.
>>>
>>>Sheldon
>>
>>And all this is based on personal experience???
>
>
>
> It's all absolutely true,

Sorry. No. Very little of it is true. Cooking is no more a "calling"
than carpentry or plumbing. They're all crafts and skills. Virtually
anyone with a viewpoint that's at all methodical can become a cook. To
be sure, being a chef - actually being the "chief" of the kitchen -
requires a great deal of information immediately at hand. It requires
knowledge, much of which comes from experience. And a good bit of
theoretical information about every aspect of kitchen operations. But
one needn't grill 5,000 steaks to learn how to do it. One needn't bake
100 cakes to know how to do it. Professional recipes are technical
statements with precise measures where needed and precise steps where
needed. Learning the basic techniques employed in commercial kitchens is
maybe a two-year project.

Sheldon, full of crap as usual, equates *all* restaurant cooking with
highest difficulty professional cooking. As though the cook needs to put
out a tour de force every time. Cooks have to put out *identical*
versions of the menu items, not skyrockets and fireworks.

The simple fact is that I've had literally dozens of late-life cooks
working for me in resorts, country clubs and free-standing restaurants.
The ones who do it because they seriously want to will persist. Some
were outstanding, some were good, some were average and some were bad.
Just like the other employees, whether culinary school grads, European
apprentices, or scions of restaurant families.

> even the point about chefs rarely cooking at
> home...I know several accomplished chef friends, they have fairly bare
> refrigerators (but they have nice olio and vinegars and groovy wine and
> likker collections - as chefs they are often gifted with nice free stuff by
> the liquor and fancy food reps who visit their workplaces). At home they
> subsist on fairly plebian fare, e.g. generic haute dawgs, Stouffers frozen
> mac 'n cheese, crockpot chili/soup, Tombstone pizza, chop suey take - out,
> etc...one of these folx has NEVER even used his oven, it's pristine and
> factory - new after having had it for five years.

Maybe your friends. And maybe Sheldon's friends. But as a chef and
restaurant operator for 30 years, with many, many friends and
acquaintances in foodservice, the people you characterize are hardly the
norm. Do read "Kitchen Confidential."

> They are extremely slender because basically since they are around food
> constantly they just never have a big appetite...food reminds them of, well,
> WORK :-)

Slender cooks. What a startling new idea. Maybe take a look at the sizes
that chef coats come in.

> They'll make a big production out of entertaining about two times a year,
> usually around the holidays (they can get prime meats, etc. and it's always
> divine). Believe me the last thing they want to do when they haul their
> tired butts home is to spend ANY time in the kitchen (and they both have
> professional house cleaners do their house cleaning too, they do enough
> cleaning at work...)

Wow. This is one of the more skewed versions of what it's like to be
part of professional foodservice. Two is hardly a representative
sampling of the universe.

> [One year I snagged entrance to the Chicago Restaurant Show at McCormick
> Place (this is closed to the general public, it's only open to
> "professionals" in the food trade). I excitedly called one of them up,
> saying it'd be a fun thing to do. She said "WHAT!?" That's the LAST thing
> I'd want to do on my day off!" Lol...]

That person is not a professional, then. The job title doesn't define
professionalism. A constant quest for improvement does. A relentless
gathering of more and more information. Staying abreast of the latest
developments does. Finding ways to improve the products of the
operation. And finding ways to save and make more money. It's a business
and needs to be considered as such. Finding ways to make the grindingly
hard work a bit easier. That's what the show is about.

Pastorio

> OTOH I enjoy cooking for them and so entertain them fairly often. I'll make
> them whatever they want, and it's usually everyday hearty fare like fried
> chicken, Swiss steak, gumbo, simple stir - fries, etc. that they request.
> When I first met them I was all intimidated about cooking for them but my
> fears were baseless, they consider me a fairly accomplished cook...and
> knowing them cooking is definitely NOT something I'd ever consider doing for
> a living.

I realize the original poster is long gone, but I did think of one more
observation that might help: The people who fare the best in
professional kitchens tend to be athletic. They're the ones with the
coordination and athletic ability to do several things at once. They
move fast and gracefully.


I once worked with a man who played football. (I'm not sure in exactly
what capacity, but it was pretty high up there. I'm tempted to say he
played for a pro team but can't say that definitely. Maybe he was
trying for pro sports-- something like that.) The man was great on the
line. It was the way he was so light on his feet. You knew he had
practice using his body. He was graceful. He knew what he was doing
with the way he could run down the line, operate several saute pans at
once; even the way he could flip the food in a pan over with a flip of
his wrist. It wasn't for show; he could just do it. I'm making him
sound effeminate when I say he was graceful, but it wasn't that; he just
knew what he was doing.


Cooks need endurance skills too. There's long hours and heat. There's
also a way of going from slow and steady to full speed in nothing flat,
then being able to go from full speed to full relaxation. I could never
switch gears fast enough.


Someone who is used to working long hours in a business capacity might
realize dreams to work in food service in the management end of it,
crunching numbers, ordering food, costing out meals, planning catered
parties, even designing menus. A hotel and restaurant school that
taught more of the business end would be better than the one that has
every student in the kitchen. A class or two in the kitchen is a good
idea for someone hoping for this sort of career so they have some idea
of what to expect from the management end.


--Lia

On Sun, 05 Feb 2006 19:45:29 GMT, "Gregory Morrow"
<gregorymorrowEMERGENCYCANCELLATIONARCHIMEDES@eart hlink.net> wrote:


>Several weeks ago the Wednesday "Dining and Wine" section of the _New York
>Times_ had an article by one of their writers about his one - week
>"underground" gig as a waiter at a Boston area resto. Very eye - opening
>and *very* brutal experience for him...
>
>You could pull it from the $$ archive of the paper if you're interested or
>find it at a library...

It was about two weeks ago, and it was the restaurant critic of the
New York Times, Frank Bruni. Good article.

Christine

TigBits wrote:
> Hi group-
>
> Due to some recent major changes in my life, I'm debating a complete 180
> degree change in my career, and I'm seriously contemplating a degree in the
> culinary arts. I'm 35 yrs old and recently divorced, and sick and tired of
....
> (o)Y(o)

if you wanna drink yourself to death!

OR

you could be an air traffic controller
that is one degree of stress MORE than a waiter has

Chef is good, but you marry the job! I just can't see it.

Drawing house plans? you bored? you working from home?

maybe if you could work from home you wouldn't feel the way you do

Dee Randall wrote:
> "OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
> >
> > Mom let me fry my first egg at age 5. :-)
> >
> > She helped me of course.......
> > --
> > Om.
>
> Probably told this befo
> Went to a neighbor's house (far away - in the country) for a visit. A girl
> my age (about 5) asked me if I wanted to go into the kitchen with her and
> make some eggs. It was a wooden stove -- no heat was on -- and there was a
> large cast-iron skillet filled 2/3 full of bacon grease. She cracked some
> eggs into it and we stood there watching for them to cook. I'll never
> forget it.

There's absolutely no reason a five year old can't cook. There are
three year olds that can play golf better than many 40 year olds who
have been playing for 25 years... seen it for myself just last summer
at a special tournament at Thunderheart, amazing.

I learned to bake bread with a giant coal stove at my grandmother's
side, gigantic round loaves of Russian Black bread with crust a half
inch thick, dropped from a first floor window could kill a man, I was
three. There was no packaged bread then, you either baked your own
from scratch or paid exhorbitant prices at bakeries, like 5¢/loaf. My
grandmother ran a tourist home in the borshst belt, what nowadays is
called a B & B... only then there were all year boarders, she prepared
three hearty meals a day for about twelve adults and me. I haven't had
bread that good since, probably because the dough rose all night under
the sheets in my grandmother's bed. Any three year old can bake bread
once shown how... but to do it well one must have natural talent.

Sheldon wrote:
> Dee Randall wrote:
>
>>"OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
>>
>>>Mom let me fry my first egg at age 5. :-)
>>>
>>>She helped me of course.......
>>>--
>>>Om.
>>
>>Probably told this befo
>>Went to a neighbor's house (far away - in the country) for a visit. A girl
>>my age (about 5) asked me if I wanted to go into the kitchen with her and
>>make some eggs. It was a wooden stove -- no heat was on -- and there was a
>>large cast-iron skillet filled 2/3 full of bacon grease. She cracked some
>>eggs into it and we stood there watching for them to cook. I'll never
>>forget it.
>
>
> There's absolutely no reason a five year old can't cook. There are
> three year olds that can play golf better than many 40 year olds who
> have been playing for 25 years... seen it for myself just last summer
> at a special tournament at Thunderheart, amazing.
>
> I learned to bake bread with a giant coal stove at my grandmother's
> side, gigantic round loaves of Russian Black bread with crust a half
> inch thick, dropped from a first floor window could kill a man, I was
> three. There was no packaged bread then, you either baked your own
> from scratch or paid exhorbitant prices at bakeries, like 5¢/loaf. My
> grandmother ran a tourist home in the borshst belt, what nowadays is
> called a B & B... only then there were all year boarders, she prepared
> three hearty meals a day for about twelve adults and me. I haven't had
> bread that good since, probably because the dough rose all night under
> the sheets in my grandmother's bed. Any three year old can bake bread
> once shown how... but to do it well one must have natural talent.
>

Yum the bread sounds good - and it sounds like somewhere that would be
wonderful to have dinner.

As for kids cooking - you are right...my kids (3 and 5 ) help me in the
kitchen all the time. I think the only thing slowing them down is my
being very cautious with them getting hurt (burned, cut, falling off the
stool etc etc) My 3 year old can make her own scrambled eggs.
Beginning to end. All I do is turn on the burner and give her a little
help with cracking the eggs. Other than that - she really has it down.
They love to cook and I enjoy having someone in the kitchen to share
with (my husband DOES NOT cook - anything - ever lol) They also love to
watch cooking shows on TV. Another fun thing. It doesn't really matter
to them who it is (or what they are making) My oldest prefers Alton
Brown and Paula Deen - they youngest likes Rachael Ray (I think because
she is sort of like a preschool teacher with all the grinning)

*shrug* I hope the kids learn to cook and enjoy it

Roberta (in VA)