In article .com>,
"Food Snob" > wrote:

> OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> > Need some help here, if you are trying to estimate protein grams and
> > calorie counts for dietary restriction, do you weigh the meat raw or
> > cooked?
> >
> > What do you do about bone-in chicken and meat weight estimates?
> >
> > I'm grilling some chicken drumsticks, what is the meat weight versus the
> > bone weight?
> >
> > I know I can just de-bone the cooked meat and weigh it by itself... ;-)
> > I'll have to wait until they cool enough to do that.
> >
> > But the first question still remains!
>
> You shouln't concern yourself with protein grams.
> Count carb calories.

That's not how PSMF is done.
You don't count calories, you cound protein grams and avoid starch/sugar
carbs totall.

Total calories come well below 1,000 Kc per day.

It's not called a "crash diet" for nothing. ;-)
I'd suggest you read the book I posted.

> If you must, count fat calories too, but mostly it's carbs. You know
> that already. The shit that makes us fat isn't protein. We are fat
> because we are sloppy with carbs, and we eat too much in general.
> The problem is not the drumsticks, but the side-dishes we can't help
> ourselves from eating with them. Again, you know that. Nobody ever
> got fat from chicken and salad greens. I'm half writing this to
> myself.

<lol>
Well, I've been eating only meat, and pigging out on celery.
With the meat has gone only 1 can per day of low sodium spinach or
string beans.

> Better than thinking about calories, think about reducing ravenous
> hunger. The only way to do that is low carb, high fat and lots of
> veggies.

You are preaching to the choir dear. I've been studying and attempting
low carb for about 5 years. The problem is sometimes just craving the
wrong foods, and the fact that for some screwball reason, your body
becomes resistant to low carbing after a few months! Some starchy carbs
are required at intervals to maintain a normal metabolism.


> That's the truth, and those of us who are overweight, and
> really want to lose just need to think, "Starches and sugars, bad, and
> greens, meat and nuts, good."
> Enjoy your chicken. Eliminate the bread, tortillas, potatoes, pastas.
> Carbs make you hungry.

I know.

> >
> > Thanks!
> > --
> > Peace, Om.
> >
> > "My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack
> > Nicholson
>
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

On Sat, 18 Feb 2006 06:10:11 GMT, JJ - RFC wrote:

> One time on Usenet, OmManiPadmeOmelet > said:

> > That's what killfiles are for. ;-)
>
> Agreed, but one of them masqueraded as a real poster. He gave bad
> information to newbies and so the regulars tended to argue with him
> a lot, which was hard to avoid reading unless you killfiled everyone.
> Worst of all, the guy had absolutely no sense of humor...

Kill the topics, jj. I do more of that than killing posters.
Remember to set an expiration, so your KF doesn't balloon.
--

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote in news:Omelet-
:

> In article >, Andy <q> wrote:
>
>> OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote in news:Omelet-
>> :
>>
>> > Be sure to get a hemoglobin A1C
>>
>>
>> Please explain!
>>
>> Andy
>
> Hemoglobin A1C shows your average glucose (blood sugar) levels over the
> past 90 days.
>
> A far, far more accurate estimation of Insulin resistance, and
> developing type II Diabetes.
>
> My Endocrinologist uses it exclusively. :-)



Om,

Today I went in for fasting bloodwork. I didn't get the Hemoglobin A1C
test as you suggested, rather just a glucose test.

I was pretty ****ed off about that. I said "but it's a more accurate
test."

They took an extra tube of blood and told me to call my doc. Well... I
called and he said there's no sign of high glucose levels (from last
year) AND he had the nerve to say that it's expensive (as if that was
more of his concern).

I just said fine and they hung up on me. Penn Care Assoc draws the lines
at this clinic and I'm damned fuming about it.

Am I wrong in my anger?

Andy

>
> Today I went in for fasting bloodwork. I didn't get the Hemoglobin A1C
> test as you suggested, rather just a glucose test.
>
> I was pretty ****ed off about that. I said "but it's a more accurate
> test."
>
> They took an extra tube of blood and told me to call my doc. Well... I
> called and he said there's no sign of high glucose levels (from last
> year) AND he had the nerve to say that it's expensive (as if that was
> more of his concern).
>
> I just said fine and they hung up on me. Penn Care Assoc draws the lines
> at this clinic and I'm damned fuming about it.
>
> Am I wrong in my anger?
>
> Andy

HELL NO!!!
When I in a counseling group for an ailment, a guest doctor there advocated
not getting certain blood tests on cancer patients because that money could
be saved to vaccinate the world's children. I kid you not! What did he
think a patient was going to do: 1) get the price of the test and write a
check for that amount to some nation that was vaccinating children. Maybe
the patient was already doing that, etc. etc. etc.
There are certain doctors who have their priorities confused; and are just
plain nuts!
Dee Dee

On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:00:45 -0600, OmManiPadmeOmelet
> wrote:


>Be sure to get a hemoglobin A1C

Unless there is some reason to run an HBA1c, it will not be done.

IIRC, you work in a lab, so you know that fasting BG is part of the
usual blood work conducted for routine exams. Unless the fasting BG or
a GTT is unusual or something else is suspected or being monitored for
some reason, they wouldn't even be able to code it to get an insurance
company to pay for an HBA1c.

Me? I get one every 3 months, but I am a diabetic. (Always below 6.0
for me)

Boron

Boron Elgar > wrote in
news
> they wouldn't even be able to code it to get an insurance
> company to pay for an HBA1c.


Well, I'm not Om, and I don't have insurance and the clinic knows that, but
I have the money. I don't know if you read I spent Christmas Day 2004-New
Years Day 2005 for acute pancreatitis.

There's something amiss at my clinic and I'm ready to find a doctor who
owns a private practice and isn't a puppet as the likes of Penn Care Assoc.
clincic doctors.

Dammit.

Andy

In article >, Andy <q> wrote:

> OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote in news:Omelet-
> :
>
> > In article >, Andy <q> wrote:
> >
> >> OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote in news:Omelet-
> >> :
> >>
> >> > Be sure to get a hemoglobin A1C
> >>
> >>
> >> Please explain!
> >>
> >> Andy
> >
> > Hemoglobin A1C shows your average glucose (blood sugar) levels over the
> > past 90 days.
> >
> > A far, far more accurate estimation of Insulin resistance, and
> > developing type II Diabetes.
> >
> > My Endocrinologist uses it exclusively. :-)
>
>
>
> Om,
>
> Today I went in for fasting bloodwork. I didn't get the Hemoglobin A1C
> test as you suggested, rather just a glucose test.
>
> I was pretty ****ed off about that. I said "but it's a more accurate
> test."
>
> They took an extra tube of blood and told me to call my doc. Well... I
> called and he said there's no sign of high glucose levels (from last
> year) AND he had the nerve to say that it's expensive (as if that was
> more of his concern).
>
> I just said fine and they hung up on me. Penn Care Assoc draws the lines
> at this clinic and I'm damned fuming about it.
>
> Am I wrong in my anger?
>
> Andy

I would be......

There is a good reason that more docs are using that test to monitor.

If nothing else, it's the principle of the thing. I have yet to have a
doctor refuse to order a lab test that I have requested of them! Dr. R.
will write an order for anything I want, and my co-pay will cover any
labs requested as long as they are appropriate for the diagnosis code.

I'm careful to fall within those limits when I place my requests. <G>

A good doctor will allow us choices and listen to our concerns!
And not blow them off as "ignorance".

Especially when the doc might be ignorant too! I dumped one GP when he
told me that a low Total T3 was meaningless if the T4 and TSH were
within normal limits.

Bullshit. <G>
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

In article >,
"Dee Randall" > wrote:

> >
> > Today I went in for fasting bloodwork. I didn't get the Hemoglobin A1C
> > test as you suggested, rather just a glucose test.
> >
> > I was pretty ****ed off about that. I said "but it's a more accurate
> > test."
> >
> > They took an extra tube of blood and told me to call my doc. Well... I
> > called and he said there's no sign of high glucose levels (from last
> > year) AND he had the nerve to say that it's expensive (as if that was
> > more of his concern).
> >
> > I just said fine and they hung up on me. Penn Care Assoc draws the lines
> > at this clinic and I'm damned fuming about it.
> >
> > Am I wrong in my anger?
> >
> > Andy
>
> HELL NO!!!
> When I in a counseling group for an ailment, a guest doctor there advocated
> not getting certain blood tests on cancer patients because that money could
> be saved to vaccinate the world's children. I kid you not! What did he
> think a patient was going to do: 1) get the price of the test and write a
> check for that amount to some nation that was vaccinating children. Maybe
> the patient was already doing that, etc. etc. etc.
> There are certain doctors who have their priorities confused; and are just
> plain nuts!
> Dee Dee
>
>

Believe it or not, some docs don't want to order tests that they don't
know how to interpret... They are too busy to do the research. :-P

Doctors as individuals cannot know everything! There is too much. That
is what medical libraries are for, and why Medline on the 'net is such a
valuable resource!

It is important to me that a doctor ADMIT they are not sure of
something, but they know who to ask. <G> My endocrinologist was not sure
about my problem with a chronic low magnesium level, so she spoke with
another internest that did know, then got back to me. She was also not
sure which form of Magnesium was the most effective supplement, so
again, she spoke with another doctor that did know, and got back to me.
;-)

Now THAT is a doctor!

I'm blessed...
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

In article >,
Boron Elgar > wrote:

> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:00:45 -0600, OmManiPadmeOmelet
> > wrote:
>
>
> >Be sure to get a hemoglobin A1C
>
> Unless there is some reason to run an HBA1c, it will not be done.
>
> IIRC, you work in a lab, so you know that fasting BG is part of the
> usual blood work conducted for routine exams. Unless the fasting BG or
> a GTT is unusual or something else is suspected or being monitored for
> some reason, they wouldn't even be able to code it to get an insurance
> company to pay for an HBA1c.
>
> Me? I get one every 3 months, but I am a diabetic. (Always below 6.0
> for me)
>
> Boron

Fortunately, that test is being ordered more frequently now as a
SCREENING test for type II diabetes early onset as it's more indicative
than a fasting glucose. If you can catch that condition in time, it can
be corrected with diet (and Metformin) before it does irreversible
damage...

Insulin resistance with obesity is becoming more and more common
nowadays and often indicates a good chance of becoming a type II
diabetic.

A glucose tolerance test is not a bad thing, but it's kinda being phased
out now except for pre-natal workups.
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:21:46 -0600, Andy <q> wrote:

>Boron Elgar > wrote in
>news >
>> they wouldn't even be able to code it to get an insurance
>> company to pay for an HBA1c.
>
>
>Well, I'm not Om, and I don't have insurance and the clinic knows that, but
>I have the money. I don't know if you read I spent Christmas Day 2004-New
>Years Day 2005 for acute pancreatitis.

I was posting in reply to OM's advice, though.

Acute pancreatitis is awful. I have had it myself (morphine is your
friend), but unless it is caused by a blocked duct (due to gallstones
and easily fixed ) or a tumor (really more leaning towards chronic and
not so easily fixed), drinking (do you drink alcohol?), medications
(what medications are you on?) or a couple of other more rare
instances, its cause is often unknown.

Chronic pancreatitits is something else altogether and no need to go
into that here.

If your pancreas shuts down due to damage, sure, they you'd become the
equivalent of a T1 diabetic, and believe me, they'd notice it on your
tests and you'd notice it too, because if you are not producing any
insulin, you'd be symptomatic quickly.
>
>There's something amiss at my clinic and I'm ready to find a doctor who
>owns a private practice and isn't a puppet as the likes of Penn Care Assoc.
>clincic doctors.

That is a whole different ball of wax, and if at any time you feel
your medical care is inadequate or does not serve your needs, seek
better.
>
>Dammit.

Though this particular physician may, indeed, not suit your needs, and
granted, I really do not know your history other than what appears
above, and to top it off IANAD, but I still don't see the utility of
an HBA1c in this case.

Why do you want one? What are your last 3 fasting BG levels?

Boron

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Andy <q> wrote:
>
>> OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote in news:Omelet-
>> :
>>
>> > In article >, Andy <q> wrote:
>> >
>> >> OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote in news:Omelet-
>> >> :
>> >>
>> >> > Be sure to get a hemoglobin A1C
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Please explain!
>> >>
>> >> Andy
>> >
>> > Hemoglobin A1C shows your average glucose (blood sugar) levels over the
>> > past 90 days.
>> >
>> > A far, far more accurate estimation of Insulin resistance, and
>> > developing type II Diabetes.
>> >
>> > My Endocrinologist uses it exclusively. :-)
>>
>>
>>
>> Om,
>>
>> Today I went in for fasting bloodwork. I didn't get the Hemoglobin A1C
>> test as you suggested, rather just a glucose test.
>>
>> I was pretty ****ed off about that. I said "but it's a more accurate
>> test."
>>
>> They took an extra tube of blood and told me to call my doc. Well... I
>> called and he said there's no sign of high glucose levels (from last
>> year) AND he had the nerve to say that it's expensive (as if that was
>> more of his concern).
>>
>> I just said fine and they hung up on me. Penn Care Assoc draws the lines
>> at this clinic and I'm damned fuming about it.
>>
>> Am I wrong in my anger?
>>
>> Andy
>
> I would be......
>
> There is a good reason that more docs are using that test to monitor.
>
> If nothing else, it's the principle of the thing. I have yet to have a
> doctor refuse to order a lab test that I have requested of them! Dr. R.
> will write an order for anything I want, and my co-pay will cover any
> labs requested as long as they are appropriate for the diagnosis code.
>
> I'm careful to fall within those limits when I place my requests. <G>
>
> A good doctor will allow us choices and listen to our concerns!
> And not blow them off as "ignorance".
>
> Especially when the doc might be ignorant too! I dumped one GP when he
> told me that a low Total T3 was meaningless if the T4 and TSH were
> within normal limits.
>
> Bullshit. <G>
> --
At my doctor's last visit, regarding two different tests in the same day -
he had his nurse call me and tell me to take calcium (Dexascan - osteopenia)
and on the other test results, he had her call me and tell me to stop
calcium altogether. When I questioned this with some other nurse who called
to see what the trouble was with my thinking, I never got a return call when
she said she would look into it. There have been other things along these
lines, too. Time to look for ANOTHER doctor.
I say, Bullshit, too.
Dee Dee

In article >,
"Dee Randall" > wrote:

> At my doctor's last visit, regarding two different tests in the same day -
> he had his nurse call me and tell me to take calcium (Dexascan - osteopenia)
> and on the other test results, he had her call me and tell me to stop
> calcium altogether. When I questioned this with some other nurse who called
> to see what the trouble was with my thinking, I never got a return call when
> she said she would look into it. There have been other things along these
> lines, too. Time to look for ANOTHER doctor.
> I say, Bullshit, too.
> Dee Dee
>
>

<lol> Sounds like someone too busy to correlate results...

Why did they want you to stop taking Calcium?

And for the record, Calcium by itself is not really utilized properly
anyway.

Short story he

When I first started weight lifting and eating a high protein diet
wayyyyy back when when I was about 30, I started developing leg cramps.

Not just ANY leg cramps, but Quadricep cramping that would wake me up at
2 am and have me nearly passing out with the pain. :-( I have a very
high pain tolerance but this was about a 12 on a scale of 1 to 10!

Turns out that eating more protein tends to cause the kidneys to dump
more calcium, so you need a higher supplementation rate. One good reason
to eat yogurt and cottage cheese. <G>

Anyhoo, I tried 4 different types of calcium supplements over time with
varying results, but none of them were adequate for stopping those early
morning episodes of sheer hell. :-(

I spoke with one of or ER docs about it, (one that I knew had a side
practice of "complementary medicine" where he used nutritional and
herbal therapies in combination with standard medical practices).

He told me that the problem was that I was taking CALCIUM, by itself!!!
He said that calcium works together in balance with Magnesium and
Phosphorous to keep blood levels stable.

Duh.

I'd forgotten about the importance of mineral balance in infant bird
feeding that I'd learned from doing wildlife rescue... The metabolic
rate of baby birds is so high that the mineral balance is critical, and
vitamin D must also be supplemented, more so in the insect eaters like
Mockingbirds...... I lost a baby mockingbird to ricketts before I
learned that. <sigh>

Anyhoo, I started taking a balanced Cal/Mag/Phos multimineral with 1,000
mg. of calcium in it, and have not had any muscle cramps since!

I know that was long, sorry, but it still ****es me off royally that
most doctors keep stuffing calcium pills down women, and they really
don't do a hell of a lot of good.....
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 12:45:55 -0600, OmManiPadmeOmelet
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Boron Elgar > wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 16 Feb 2006 15:00:45 -0600, OmManiPadmeOmelet
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Be sure to get a hemoglobin A1C
>>
>> Unless there is some reason to run an HBA1c, it will not be done.
>>
>> IIRC, you work in a lab, so you know that fasting BG is part of the
>> usual blood work conducted for routine exams. Unless the fasting BG or
>> a GTT is unusual or something else is suspected or being monitored for
>> some reason, they wouldn't even be able to code it to get an insurance
>> company to pay for an HBA1c.
>>
>> Me? I get one every 3 months, but I am a diabetic. (Always below 6.0
>> for me)
>>
>> Boron
>
>Fortunately, that test is being ordered more frequently now as a
>SCREENING test for type II diabetes early onset as it's more indicative
>than a fasting glucose. If you can catch that condition in time, it can
>be corrected with diet (and Metformin) before it does irreversible
>damage...

Insulin resistance shows up in fasting BGs, too, if they are tracked
over time or repeated if out of range.....and unless there are some
other risk factors involved, some indication of metabolic syndrome,
the HBA1c is an unusual test to order. There has to be some reason
for it. It is not part of a "normal" screen. It just isn't and I have
seen no guidelines that suggest it should be.

>Insulin resistance with obesity is becoming more and more common
>nowadays and often indicates a good chance of becoming a type II
>diabetic.

But just being obese will not trigger any protocol for including an
HBA1c . I mean, it'd be swell and all, but unless something else shows
in the blood work, or other risk factors are involved, it is an
expensive test to use as a common screen and no medical source I have
seen recommends that it be used that way.

I had a real porky mama whose blood sugar was normal her whole life. I
had a skinny dad who developed diabetes in his 40s (along with a lot
of other skinniest on his side of the family). Go figure.

>A glucose tolerance test is not a bad thing, but it's kinda being phased
>out now except for pre-natal workups.

Quite true, but you'd be surprised at what some docs will order. AND
there are a lot of docs who will work with a patient to make sure that
they are treated for any developing insulin resistance in order to
prevent a diagnosis of diabetes being on the records. Once a diagnosis
like that is made, all hell can break loose with health insurance,
life insurance, etc. Even ordering an HBA1C can raise eyebrows at an
insurance company. Again, it has to be coded to be done and that means
some reason needs to be found to do it.

Boron

In article >,
Boron Elgar > wrote:

> Insulin resistance shows up in fasting BGs, too, if they are tracked
> over time or repeated if out of range.....and unless there are some
> other risk factors involved, some indication of metabolic syndrome,
> the HBA1c is an unusual test to order. There has to be some reason
> for it. It is not part of a "normal" screen. It just isn't and I have
> seen no guidelines that suggest it should be.

It's a recent development. :-)
It's happening at our hospital, especially with docs that do a lot of
weight loss work with their patients.

Granted, more docs still use it for tracking diabetic therapy, but we
are seeing more and more of them ordered with people's annual lab work.

When you only have 1 set of blood tests per year, the A1C is going to be
far more indicative of an "average" daily blood glucose level than a
random fasting BG.
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:36:02 -0600, OmManiPadmeOmelet
> wrote:

>In article >,
> Boron Elgar > wrote:
>
>> Insulin resistance shows up in fasting BGs, too, if they are tracked
>> over time or repeated if out of range.....and unless there are some
>> other risk factors involved, some indication of metabolic syndrome,
>> the HBA1c is an unusual test to order. There has to be some reason
>> for it. It is not part of a "normal" screen. It just isn't and I have
>> seen no guidelines that suggest it should be.
>
>It's a recent development. :-)

The increased usage is, but I'd like to see them get it past the
insurance companies without a diagnosis code to cover it.

>It's happening at our hospital, especially with docs that do a lot of
>weight loss work with their patients.

Docs doing a lot of weight loss work are dealing with a specialized
population.
>
>Granted, more docs still use it for tracking diabetic therapy, but we
>are seeing more and more of them ordered with people's annual lab work.

That is more likely do to the increase in diagnosed T2s and increase
in risk factors in the pop.
>
>When you only have 1 set of blood tests per year, the A1C is going to be
>far more indicative of an "average" daily blood glucose level than a
>random fasting BG.

But why do an expensive test without cause? Of course it is more
accurate than a random fasting BG, but spending money on unneeded
tests makes no sense. I think you'll find that there are reasons you
are running more HBA1cs, and that it is due to cause.

How fortuitous....

I just got off the phone with my GP, as I had lab work done on Monday
(pre-cert for minor surgery). I asked her about this and she told me
that she never orders it without some reason to do so and that a
annual physical in an otherwise healthy adult is not cause. It would
only be ordered for someone who is in a high risk category and being
watched or tracked (long term steroid use was one example she used) or
someone already diagnosed as diabetic.

Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?

Boron

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dee Randall" > wrote:
>
>> At my doctor's last visit, regarding two different tests in the same
>> day -
>> he had his nurse call me and tell me to take calcium (Dexascan -
>> osteopenia)
>> and on the other test results, he had her call me and tell me to stop
>> calcium altogether. When I questioned this with some other nurse who
>> called
>> to see what the trouble was with my thinking, I never got a return call
>> when
>> she said she would look into it. There have been other things along
>> these
>> lines, too. Time to look for ANOTHER doctor.
>> I say, Bullshit, too.
>> Dee Dee
>>
>>
>
> <lol> Sounds like someone too busy to correlate results...
>
> Why did they want you to stop taking Calcium?
>
> And for the record, Calcium by itself is not really utilized properly
> anyway.
>
> Short story he
>
> When I first started weight lifting and eating a high protein diet
> wayyyyy back when when I was about 30, I started developing leg cramps.
>
> Not just ANY leg cramps, but Quadricep cramping that would wake me up at
> 2 am and have me nearly passing out with the pain. :-( I have a very
> high pain tolerance but this was about a 12 on a scale of 1 to 10!
>
> Turns out that eating more protein tends to cause the kidneys to dump
> more calcium, so you need a higher supplementation rate. One good reason
> to eat yogurt and cottage cheese. <G>
>
> Anyhoo, I tried 4 different types of calcium supplements over time with
> varying results, but none of them were adequate for stopping those early
> morning episodes of sheer hell. :-(
>
> I spoke with one of or ER docs about it, (one that I knew had a side
> practice of "complementary medicine" where he used nutritional and
> herbal therapies in combination with standard medical practices).
>
> He told me that the problem was that I was taking CALCIUM, by itself!!!
> He said that calcium works together in balance with Magnesium and
> Phosphorous to keep blood levels stable.
>

Thanks for the information. Yes, I know about the balance. DH gets legs
cramps awful and he pops about 5 sublingual magnesium pills under his tongue
when this happens (he does take calcium & phosphorous supplements.)

I am not a big believer in calcium supplements. I do believe in eating
cheese and yogurt and not necessarily milk. I've read the stastics on the
Bantu who do not drink milk and don't get osteoporosis. When I stopped
supplementing and stopped drinking milk, but eating cheese, I acutally
gained 6% bone. (I do take a regimen of vitamins, but basically they are at
the rates that are mostly recommended and I don't overdo any of them.)

However, my blood test results have always showed a couple of .points (as
in .3) points over the calcium level of around 10. I've been told that it is
nothing to worry about this smaller .point number above normal; and I've
also been told that the reason for a higher level of calcium in the blood
backs up the fact that you are leaching calcium from the bone and it is
showing up in the blood.

The doctor said to take more calcium because I was still a little under the
numbers on the Dexascan and still considered having osteopenia. That was
the first call. Then the second call he related to the 'blood test' being a
few .points over and he said to not take calcium. I had discussed the above
average calcium level previously and he said there was nothing to worry
about. Now all of a sudden he tells me to stop taking calcium. It was the
nurse who relayed this information to me, but his notes on the report
confirm that these were his recommendations in both instances.

A day before the above relaying of information, the nurse wrote me a note
and said that my spine showed better improvement and my hips less; when
actually any person could read the chart and see that it was actually the
opposite. She said she got this information from the doctor's words.

This is not a matter of great importance in the great scheme of things, but
if and when something greater does happen I don't want anything to do with
these rattled people. There have been a few things that I consider more
crucial to my health that has happened. This has just been the straw that
broke the camel's back.
Thanks for listening.
Dee Dee

In article >,
Boron Elgar > wrote:

> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 13:36:02 -0600, OmManiPadmeOmelet
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Boron Elgar > wrote:
> >
> >> Insulin resistance shows up in fasting BGs, too, if they are tracked
> >> over time or repeated if out of range.....and unless there are some
> >> other risk factors involved, some indication of metabolic syndrome,
> >> the HBA1c is an unusual test to order. There has to be some reason
> >> for it. It is not part of a "normal" screen. It just isn't and I have
> >> seen no guidelines that suggest it should be.
> >
> >It's a recent development. :-)
>
> The increased usage is, but I'd like to see them get it past the
> insurance companies without a diagnosis code to cover it.

Docs are going to be skilled at coding...
Obesity is rampant in the US and puts one at higher risk for Type II.
IMHO that seems to justify it?

>
> >It's happening at our hospital, especially with docs that do a lot of
> >weight loss work with their patients.
>
> Docs doing a lot of weight loss work are dealing with a specialized
> population.

Yah. About 60% of the US population. :-(

> >
> >Granted, more docs still use it for tracking diabetic therapy, but we
> >are seeing more and more of them ordered with people's annual lab work.
>
> That is more likely do to the increase in diagnosed T2s and increase
> in risk factors in the pop.

I see you just made my point, thanks!

> >
> >When you only have 1 set of blood tests per year, the A1C is going to be
> >far more indicative of an "average" daily blood glucose level than a
> >random fasting BG.
>
> But why do an expensive test without cause? Of course it is more
> accurate than a random fasting BG, but spending money on unneeded
> tests makes no sense. I think you'll find that there are reasons you
> are running more HBA1cs, and that it is due to cause.

I see your point there, but again it has to do with the fact that adult
onset type II can come on rather quickly and cause a lot of damage
before you pick it up. The cost for that test at our hospital, including
the venipuncture and administrative fees is $75.00.

A standard profile runs more than that and if it's only annual, well,
let's just say it's not a bad idea!

Indications? If you feel you are at risk for whatever reason, I'd say
that's indication enough?

>
> How fortuitous....
>
> I just got off the phone with my GP, as I had lab work done on Monday
> (pre-cert for minor surgery). I asked her about this and she told me
> that she never orders it without some reason to do so and that a
> annual physical in an otherwise healthy adult is not cause. It would
> only be ordered for someone who is in a high risk category and being
> watched or tracked (long term steroid use was one example she used) or
> someone already diagnosed as diabetic.
>
> Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
> your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?

I've only talked to my own doc. She orders them as an annual test on all
of her patients because she feels it is far more accurate.....

>
> Boron
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

>
> Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
> your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
>
> Boron

OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read the
fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I do
not remember at the moment.
This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but I
was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting the
CT.

In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the h....
absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel didn't
required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.

Why was no one ordering them?
It goes both ways.
Dee Dee

In article >,
"Dee Randall" > wrote:

> "OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Dee Randall" > wrote:
> >
> >> At my doctor's last visit, regarding two different tests in the same
> >> day -
> >> he had his nurse call me and tell me to take calcium (Dexascan -
> >> osteopenia)
> >> and on the other test results, he had her call me and tell me to stop
> >> calcium altogether. When I questioned this with some other nurse who
> >> called
> >> to see what the trouble was with my thinking, I never got a return call
> >> when
> >> she said she would look into it. There have been other things along
> >> these
> >> lines, too. Time to look for ANOTHER doctor.
> >> I say, Bullshit, too.
> >> Dee Dee
> >>
> >>
> >
> > <lol> Sounds like someone too busy to correlate results...
> >
> > Why did they want you to stop taking Calcium?
> >
> > And for the record, Calcium by itself is not really utilized properly
> > anyway.
> >
> > Short story he
> >
> > When I first started weight lifting and eating a high protein diet
> > wayyyyy back when when I was about 30, I started developing leg cramps.
> >
> > Not just ANY leg cramps, but Quadricep cramping that would wake me up at
> > 2 am and have me nearly passing out with the pain. :-( I have a very
> > high pain tolerance but this was about a 12 on a scale of 1 to 10!
> >
> > Turns out that eating more protein tends to cause the kidneys to dump
> > more calcium, so you need a higher supplementation rate. One good reason
> > to eat yogurt and cottage cheese. <G>
> >
> > Anyhoo, I tried 4 different types of calcium supplements over time with
> > varying results, but none of them were adequate for stopping those early
> > morning episodes of sheer hell. :-(
> >
> > I spoke with one of or ER docs about it, (one that I knew had a side
> > practice of "complementary medicine" where he used nutritional and
> > herbal therapies in combination with standard medical practices).
> >
> > He told me that the problem was that I was taking CALCIUM, by itself!!!
> > He said that calcium works together in balance with Magnesium and
> > Phosphorous to keep blood levels stable.
> >
>
> Thanks for the information. Yes, I know about the balance. DH gets legs
> cramps awful and he pops about 5 sublingual magnesium pills under his tongue
> when this happens (he does take calcium & phosphorous supplements.)
>
> I am not a big believer in calcium supplements. I do believe in eating
> cheese and yogurt and not necessarily milk. I've read the stastics on the
> Bantu who do not drink milk and don't get osteoporosis. When I stopped
> supplementing and stopped drinking milk, but eating cheese, I acutally
> gained 6% bone. (I do take a regimen of vitamins, but basically they are at
> the rates that are mostly recommended and I don't overdo any of them.)
>
> However, my blood test results have always showed a couple of .points (as
> in .3) points over the calcium level of around 10. I've been told that it is
> nothing to worry about this smaller .point number above normal; and I've
> also been told that the reason for a higher level of calcium in the blood
> backs up the fact that you are leaching calcium from the bone and it is
> showing up in the blood.
>
> The doctor said to take more calcium because I was still a little under the
> numbers on the Dexascan and still considered having osteopenia. That was
> the first call. Then the second call he related to the 'blood test' being a
> few .points over and he said to not take calcium. I had discussed the above
> average calcium level previously and he said there was nothing to worry
> about. Now all of a sudden he tells me to stop taking calcium. It was the
> nurse who relayed this information to me, but his notes on the report
> confirm that these were his recommendations in both instances.
>
> A day before the above relaying of information, the nurse wrote me a note
> and said that my spine showed better improvement and my hips less; when
> actually any person could read the chart and see that it was actually the
> opposite. She said she got this information from the doctor's words.
>
> This is not a matter of great importance in the great scheme of things, but
> if and when something greater does happen I don't want anything to do with
> these rattled people. There have been a few things that I consider more
> crucial to my health that has happened. This has just been the straw that
> broke the camel's back.
> Thanks for listening.
> Dee Dee

Understood. :-)

The brand I take is "Now", sort of a generic vitamin. Their "full
spectrum minerals". They are quite affordable and it's 2 pills per day
with food.

Cheese is going to be higher in Calcium as it's sorta condensed and
concentrated.

I'm glad things are working for ya!
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

Dee Randall wrote:

> OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read the
> fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
> submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I do
> not remember at the moment.
> This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but I
> was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting the
> CT.
>
> In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the h....
> absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel didn't
> required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
>
> Why was no one ordering them?
> It goes both ways.
> Dee Dee
>
Generally for a CT scan with contrast, they want those renal functions
cleared by a current BUN, Creatinine. They want to know you'll be able
to clear the contrast material quickly.
Often the person who orders the "cat scan" just forgets to order that
lab test in advance. Or perhaps you did have one on file from a recent
visit? It is part of the common chemistry panel drawn.
Goomba

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:14:12 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> wrote:

>>
>> Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
>> your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
>>
>> Boron
>
>OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read the
>fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
>submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I do
>not remember at the moment.
>This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but I
>was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting the
>CT.
>
>In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the h....
>absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel didn't
>required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
>
>Why was no one ordering them?
>It goes both ways.
>Dee Dee
>
>

That is one of three things...one, that the Xray facility/doc screwed
up, two, that you had the test previously and the results had been
faxed over to the facilty by your doc, three, the test was not really
needed as a pre-req or perhaps not in your particular case and the
line was just not crossed out on the form.

Give me a few minutes and I can probably come up with several more
reasons.

Why didn't you question this at the facility and call your doc's
office right away? If you saw something that seemed untoward, you
should have been proactive and followed up. Better safe than sorry. A
patient who reads carefully and questions things might avoid an error.

Boron

In article >,
"Dee Randall" > wrote:

> >
> > Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
> > your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
> >
> > Boron
>
> OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read the
> fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
> submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I do
> not remember at the moment.
> This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but I
> was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting the
> CT.
>
> In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the h....
> absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel didn't
> required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
>
> Why was no one ordering them?
> It goes both ways.
> Dee Dee
>
>
>

Creatinine... It's a kidney function test.
If the CT was being done using x-ray contrast media, that stuff is
eliminated by the kidneys and they dose it based on whether or not you
have normal renal function.

If they were not injecting you with dye, you did not need that blood
test.

HTH? :-)
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

Dee Randall wrote:

> The doctor did not order it; nor did the receptionist or technician have any
> clue as to what I was speaking about when I brought it up and showed it to
> them on the paper I was signing. Luckily I keep a file of my medical
> history with me when I go to any doctor's office. I had a recent BUN, but
> actually not recent enough according to their rules -- but they were
> satisfied. However, they were satisfied without it, too - heh?
>
> The same type of thing happened with my Dexascan, telling me that it would
> be compared to the previous scans - about 5 of them, but there was no
> comparison made. Too much of an effort, I guess.
> Thanks for your response, Goomba.
> Dee Dee

But the question that needs answering is: Did they inject contrast at
all or was it a CT without contrast? If they weren't going to inject
contrast, no lab test was necessary and it was just mentioned in a
standard consent form.
How do you know no comparison was made with the previous dexascan?
Goomba

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:14:12 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> > wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
>>> your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
>>>
>>> Boron
>>
>>OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read
>>the
>>fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
>>submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I
>>do
>>not remember at the moment.
>>This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but
>>I
>>was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting
>>the
>>CT.
>>
>>In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the
>>h....
>>absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel
>>didn't
>>required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
>>
>>Why was no one ordering them?
>>It goes both ways.
>>Dee Dee
>>
>>
>
> That is one of three things...one, that the Xray facility/doc screwed
> up, two, that you had the test previously and the results had been
> faxed over to the facilty by your doc, three, the test was not really
> needed as a pre-req or perhaps not in your particular case and the
> line was just not crossed out on the form.
>
> Give me a few minutes and I can probably come up with several more
> reasons.
>
> Why didn't you question this at the facility and call your doc's
> office right away? If you saw something that seemed untoward, you
> should have been proactive and followed up. Better safe than sorry. A
> patient who reads carefully and questions things might avoid an error.
>
> Boron

Boron, I was the one that was proactive about the whole thing. I was the
one that read it carefully and brought it to their attention. The imaging
facility was the one who was dragging their heels, not knowing what I was
speaking about. This is a requirement for everyone age 70 and over, and my
age was on the application, but there were two requirements which I met, age
being just one of them. I was not asked for a report of my blood test. They
acted like it wasn't important, and actually they acted like they'd never
heard of it before. Yes, I would've called my doctor's office to get a
faxed order to take the test, but I had recent blood test reports in the car
with me which they accepted but according to the rules on the form, they
weren't current enough -- I went with it because an MD there said, it's OK.
Actually just sick of this type of thing happening almost everytime I have
anything to do with the medical field. I'm so glad that I have my husband
as my advocate with me at all times.
Dee Dee

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dee Randall" > wrote:
>
>> >
>> > Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
>> > your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
>> >
>> > Boron
>>
>> OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read
>> the
>> fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
>> submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I
>> do
>> not remember at the moment.
>> This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but
>> I
>> was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting
>> the
>> CT.
>>
>> In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the
>> h....
>> absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel
>> didn't
>> required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
>>
>> Why was no one ordering them?
>> It goes both ways.
>> Dee Dee
>>
>>
>>
>
> Creatinine... It's a kidney function test.
> If the CT was being done using x-ray contrast media, that stuff is
> eliminated by the kidneys and they dose it based on whether or not you
> have normal renal function.
>
> If they were not injecting you with dye, you did not need that blood
> test.
>

Yes, this was another one of the screw-ups. When I emailed them the
prescription they said I didn't need a contrast; but when I got there, they
said the prescription called for contrast. This is another time my
attention to detail helped, I had a copy of my prescription and it did not
call for contrast, but he said, we do contrast in cases like yours. The
nurse reading the prescription when I emailed it, if it had called for a
contrast, could have alerted me to getting a current BUN.

I used to be a court-reporter and this is the type of thing gets more
complicated the more you discuss it and question what happened-- AARRGH.
Dee Dee

In article >,
"Dee Randall" > wrote:

> "Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 15:14:12 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> > > wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
> >>> your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
> >>>
> >>> Boron
> >>
> >>OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read
> >>the
> >>fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
> >>submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I
> >>do
> >>not remember at the moment.
> >>This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but
> >>I
> >>was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting
> >>the
> >>CT.
> >>
> >>In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the
> >>h....
> >>absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel
> >>didn't
> >>required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
> >>
> >>Why was no one ordering them?
> >>It goes both ways.
> >>Dee Dee
> >>
> >>
> >
> > That is one of three things...one, that the Xray facility/doc screwed
> > up, two, that you had the test previously and the results had been
> > faxed over to the facilty by your doc, three, the test was not really
> > needed as a pre-req or perhaps not in your particular case and the
> > line was just not crossed out on the form.
> >
> > Give me a few minutes and I can probably come up with several more
> > reasons.
> >
> > Why didn't you question this at the facility and call your doc's
> > office right away? If you saw something that seemed untoward, you
> > should have been proactive and followed up. Better safe than sorry. A
> > patient who reads carefully and questions things might avoid an error.
> >
> > Boron
>
> Boron, I was the one that was proactive about the whole thing. I was the
> one that read it carefully and brought it to their attention. The imaging
> facility was the one who was dragging their heels, not knowing what I was
> speaking about. This is a requirement for everyone age 70 and over, and my
> age was on the application, but there were two requirements which I met, age
> being just one of them. I was not asked for a report of my blood test. They
> acted like it wasn't important, and actually they acted like they'd never
> heard of it before. Yes, I would've called my doctor's office to get a
> faxed order to take the test, but I had recent blood test reports in the car
> with me which they accepted but according to the rules on the form, they
> weren't current enough -- I went with it because an MD there said, it's OK.
> Actually just sick of this type of thing happening almost everytime I have
> anything to do with the medical field. I'm so glad that I have my husband
> as my advocate with me at all times.
> Dee Dee
>
>
>

That's the problem with some big facilities. :-( It's almost like you
are nothing but a number on an assembly line....

I'm glad the place I work at is still small enough to treat our
customers like individual humans!

Our CT/Radiology people call the lab themselves to ask for and wait for
the renal function testing prior to starting the procedure! I get those
calls all the time when I'm working Chemistry.
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

In article >,
"Dee Randall" > wrote:

> "OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
> > "Dee Randall" > wrote:
> >
> >> >
> >> > Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests in
> >> > your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
> >> >
> >> > Boron
> >>
> >> OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I read
> >> the
> >> fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without the
> >> submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing, which I
> >> do
> >> not remember at the moment.
> >> This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day, but
> >> I
> >> was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for getting
> >> the
> >> CT.
> >>
> >> In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the
> >> h....
> >> absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel
> >> didn't
> >> required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
> >>
> >> Why was no one ordering them?
> >> It goes both ways.
> >> Dee Dee
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> > Creatinine... It's a kidney function test.
> > If the CT was being done using x-ray contrast media, that stuff is
> > eliminated by the kidneys and they dose it based on whether or not you
> > have normal renal function.
> >
> > If they were not injecting you with dye, you did not need that blood
> > test.
> >
>
> Yes, this was another one of the screw-ups. When I emailed them the
> prescription they said I didn't need a contrast; but when I got there, they
> said the prescription called for contrast. This is another time my
> attention to detail helped, I had a copy of my prescription and it did not
> call for contrast, but he said, we do contrast in cases like yours. The
> nurse reading the prescription when I emailed it, if it had called for a
> contrast, could have alerted me to getting a current BUN.
>
> I used to be a court-reporter and this is the type of thing gets more
> complicated the more you discuss it and question what happened-- AARRGH.
> Dee Dee
>

You need to send a formal complaint to the facility's CEO.

Seriously.
--
Peace, Om.

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a son-of-a-bitch." -Jack Nicholson

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Dee Randall" > wrote:
>
>> "OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > In article >,
>> > "Dee Randall" > wrote:
>> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Why not go talk to some of these docs who are ordering these tests
>> >> > in
>> >> > your hospital and find out why they are ordering them?
>> >> >
>> >> > Boron
>> >>
>> >> OTOH, I had a CT a few weeks ago, signed papers for it, etc. when I
>> >> read
>> >> the
>> >> fine print (on the front page) that this CT would NOT be done without
>> >> the
>> >> submission of proof of blood test level of one particular thing,
>> >> which I
>> >> do
>> >> not remember at the moment.
>> >> This was an imaging facility/office where people come and go all day,
>> >> but
>> >> I
>> >> was not asked if I had had this blood test as a requirement for
>> >> getting
>> >> the
>> >> CT.
>> >>
>> >> In my case I should be asking the doctors at that facility why in the
>> >> h....
>> >> absolutely no one had ordered this test prior, or reception personnel
>> >> didn't
>> >> required that I had the papers to prove that I had had it done.
>> >>
>> >> Why was no one ordering them?
>> >> It goes both ways.
>> >> Dee Dee
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> > Creatinine... It's a kidney function test.
>> > If the CT was being done using x-ray contrast media, that stuff is
>> > eliminated by the kidneys and they dose it based on whether or not you
>> > have normal renal function.
>> >
>> > If they were not injecting you with dye, you did not need that blood
>> > test.
>> >
>>
>> Yes, this was another one of the screw-ups. When I emailed them the
>> prescription they said I didn't need a contrast; but when I got there,
>> they
>> said the prescription called for contrast. This is another time my
>> attention to detail helped, I had a copy of my prescription and it did
>> not
>> call for contrast, but he said, we do contrast in cases like yours. The
>> nurse reading the prescription when I emailed it, if it had called for a
>> contrast, could have alerted me to getting a current BUN.
>>
>> I used to be a court-reporter and this is the type of thing gets more
>> complicated the more you discuss it and question what happened-- AARRGH.
>> Dee Dee
>>
>
> You need to send a formal complaint to the facility's CEO.
>
> Seriously.
> --

To get involved further with any people at the medical facility takes
moments/hours/days off my life that would not be worth it to me. My skin is
not thick enough for it. I think there is a time in life when we all feel a
little fragile even though we still have a tiger inside. This is that time
for me.
Thanks for your support.
Dee Dee