I brined my first chicken ever. According to "Cooks Illustrated"
"Pan-Roasted Chicken Breasts" for 2 whole bone-in chicken breasts (weighing
total abt 3 lbs) , they leave them 30 minutes of brine (1 cup salt + 2
quarts water). I had 3 half bone-in chicken breasts weighing about the same
for each breast (3/4 lb. ea)

Here is an article which states (for a whole chicken)
"The length of time the chicken sits in the brine is variable (I didn't dare
say 'up to you'), but I'd say 8 hours is the minimum, 12 hours is fine, and
after that the texture notably changes. Saying that I've left the chicken in
the brine for 24 hours and still found it tasty, after 48 hours you are
going to have to cook it or eat it- unless you like supermarket ham. I've
never brined longer than that- But by the third day 'food safety' would
become an issue."

I am wondering what 30 minutes accomplishes.

The chicken was tasty. It was chicken bought at Costco -- their new
'natural' chicken, I believe without chemicals, or something to that extent.

I prepared a vermouth sauce (in this Cooks Ill. recipe) for the breasts and
poured some over the rice. With the sauce, It tasted similar to Hainanese
or Singapore Chicken-Rice.

These breasts were too large for actually putting on one's plate and cutting
into and eating. If these breast bones can be roasted and used for chicken
stock, it seems there should be a correct way to cut off semi-neatly this
meat in slices for serving on a plate. I should have done this before
plating, but didn't think of it, nor knew the proper way to tackle the job.

Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.

About all I see regarding slicing cooked chicken-breast is this
"Slice the breasts on a diagonal." Is this just about all there is to
slicing a BONE-IN chicken breast?
Thanks,
Dee Dee

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:

> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>
No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
but buying an injected bird is bad. I tried brining once and that was
enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
figure it out.

> About all I see regarding slicing cooked chicken-breast is this
> "Slice the breasts on a diagonal." Is this just about all there is to
> slicing a BONE-IN chicken breast?

Take it off the bone and *then* slice.
--

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

On Sat 11 Mar 2006 09:23:34p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it sf?

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>
>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>>
> No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
> but buying an injected bird is bad.

That confuses me, too!

I tried brining once and that was
> enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
> figure it out.

I've never brined a chicken. First, let me say that I do not like turkey.
One Thanksgiving I brined a bone-in turkey breast and rotisseried it in the
gas grill. It was the only turkey I can honestly say I enjoyed eating.

>> About all I see regarding slicing cooked chicken-breast is this
>> "Slice the breasts on a diagonal." Is this just about all there is to
>> slicing a BONE-IN chicken breast?
>
> Take it off the bone and *then* slice.

Good idea!

--
Wayne Boatwright o¿o
____________________

BIOYA

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> On Sat 11 Mar 2006 09:23:34p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it sf?
>
> > On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
> >
> >> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
> >>
> > No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
> > but buying an injected bird is bad.
>
> That confuses me, too!

Well since i have pretty well demonstrated i haven't a clue what i am
talking about, and purely as a hobbyist, i would suggest that brining is
a long process of hours and an injection of something in meat is a more
immediate process with out the time for particular processes to take
place, as in brining.

One can encourage injections though purely for flavor, injecting an
herbal butter, or fruit purees into various cuts of meat can be very
effective. "Larding" is similar when long strings of fat can be rolled
in various herbs and spices and "larded" with a "larding needle" into
various cuts of meat. Injecting various liquors and wines can be very
rewarding.

>
>
> I tried brining once and that was
> > enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
>
> > figure it out.
>
> I've never brined a chicken.

I keep meaning to, i considered brining last winters turkey but did
not. We get a local deli brined chicken that is so good i am tempted to
learn to do it myself, from what i have read here on RFC it seems a
simple enough process, but im still working on the difference between
pickling and brining, i keep thinking that if im going to brine why stop
at just salt and water. I have eaten ham soaked in coca cola and
thought it very good.

I keep thinking i want to brine with wine. But then that probly becomes
a marinade.
---
JL

> First, let me say that I do not like turkey.
> One Thanksgiving I brined a bone-in turkey breast and rotisseried it
> in the
> gas grill. It was the only turkey I can honestly say I enjoyed
> eating.
>
> >> About all I see regarding slicing cooked chicken-breast is this
> >> "Slice the breasts on a diagonal." Is this just about all there is
> to
> >> slicing a BONE-IN chicken breast?
> >
> > Take it off the bone and *then* slice.
>
> Good idea!
>
> --
> Wayne Boatwright o¿o
> ____________________
>
> BIOYA

On Sat 11 Mar 2006 10:51:44p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Joseph
Littleshoes?

> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
>> On Sat 11 Mar 2006 09:23:34p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it sf?
>>
>> > On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>> >
>> >> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>> >>
>> > No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
>> > but buying an injected bird is bad.
>>
>> That confuses me, too!
>
> Well since i have pretty well demonstrated i haven't a clue what i am
> talking about, and purely as a hobbyist, i would suggest that brining is
> a long process of hours and an injection of something in meat is a more
> immediate process with out the time for particular processes to take
> place, as in brining.

It seems to me that commercial injection is mainly to bulk up the meat and
extend shelf life, not really an "enhancement". Even the simplest of
brines can work wonders with a meat.

> One can encourage injections though purely for flavor, injecting an
> herbal butter, or fruit purees into various cuts of meat can be very
> effective. "Larding" is similar when long strings of fat can be rolled
> in various herbs and spices and "larded" with a "larding needle" into
> various cuts of meat. Injecting various liquors and wines can be very
> rewarding.

That's the only type of injection I would really want to use.

>> I tried brining once and that was
>> > enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
>>
>> > figure it out.
>>
>> I've never brined a chicken.
>
> I keep meaning to, i considered brining last winters turkey but did
> not. We get a local deli brined chicken that is so good i am tempted to
> learn to do it myself, from what i have read here on RFC it seems a
> simple enough process, but im still working on the difference between
> pickling and brining, i keep thinking that if im going to brine why stop
> at just salt and water. I have eaten ham soaked in coca cola and
> thought it very good.

This is the brine I used for the turkey breast. I brined it overnight.

1 cup lemon juice
3/4 cup fresh orange juice
1 cup Kosher salt
1 cup packed light brown sugar
1 cup chopped yellow onion
2 oranges, cut in half
3 cinnamon sticks
2 tablespoons whole cloves
2 tablespoons whole allspice berries
1 cup brandy

I have since used it to brine whole Cornish game hens with excellent
results. I stuffed the cavities with chunks of oranges.

> I keep thinking i want to brine with wine. But then that probly becomes
> a marinade.

Probably, depending on whether you're also using the salt.


--
Wayne Boatwright o¿o
____________________

BIOYA

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> On Sat 11 Mar 2006 10:51:44p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Joseph
>
> Littleshoes?
>
> > Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat 11 Mar 2006 09:23:34p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it sf?
>
> >>
> >> > On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
> >> >>
> >> > No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is
> good,
> >> > but buying an injected bird is bad.
> >>
> >> That confuses me, too!
> >
> > Well since i have pretty well demonstrated i haven't a clue what i
> am
> > talking about, and purely as a hobbyist, i would suggest that
> brining is
> > a long process of hours and an injection of something in meat is a
> more
> > immediate process with out the time for particular processes to take
>
> > place, as in brining.
>
> It seems to me that commercial injection is mainly to bulk up the meat
> and
> extend shelf life, not really an "enhancement". Even the simplest of
> brines can work wonders with a meat.
>
> > One can encourage injections though purely for flavor, injecting an
> > herbal butter, or fruit purees into various cuts of meat can be very
>
> > effective. "Larding" is similar when long strings of fat can be
> rolled
> > in various herbs and spices and "larded" with a "larding needle"
> into
> > various cuts of meat. Injecting various liquors and wines can be
> very
> > rewarding.
>
> That's the only type of injection I would really want to use.
>
> >> I tried brining once and that was
> >> > enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me
> to
> >>
> >> > figure it out.
> >>
> >> I've never brined a chicken.
> >
> > I keep meaning to, i considered brining last winters turkey but did
> > not. We get a local deli brined chicken that is so good i am
> tempted to
> > learn to do it myself, from what i have read here on RFC it seems a
> > simple enough process, but im still working on the difference
> between
> > pickling and brining, i keep thinking that if im going to brine why
> stop
> > at just salt and water. I have eaten ham soaked in coca cola and
> > thought it very good.
>
> This is the brine I used for the turkey breast. I brined it
> overnight.
>
> 1 cup lemon juice
> 3/4 cup fresh orange juice
> 1 cup Kosher salt
> 1 cup packed light brown sugar
> 1 cup chopped yellow onion
> 2 oranges, cut in half
> 3 cinnamon sticks
> 2 tablespoons whole cloves
> 2 tablespoons whole allspice berries
> 1 cup brandy
>
> I have since used it to brine whole Cornish game hens with excellent
> results. I stuffed the cavities with chunks of oranges.
>
> > I keep thinking i want to brine with wine. But then that probly
> becomes
> > a marinade.
>
> Probably, depending on whether you're also using the salt.

Very interesting. I have been wanting to experiment with salt in the
marinade.
---
JL

>
>
> --
> Wayne Boatwright o¿o
> ____________________
>
> BIOYA

Joseph Littleshoes wrote:
> Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>
>>On Sat 11 Mar 2006 09:23:34p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it sf?
>>
>>>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>>>
>>>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.

I'd say that 30-minute brining is a token gesture. The formula posted is
too concentrated for my tastes. I'd cut the ratio to 1 cup salt to one
gallon water. Add whatever other flavorings you'd like, but be sparing.
They can sneak up and surprise you. For breasts on the bone, I'd do
about 6 hours. Boneless, maybe 4 hours. Whole chicken, skin-on, 24 hours.

Shrimp - 45 minutes. Fish filets - 1 1/2 hours. Pork - 12 hours per
pound. Game meats - same as pork.

>>>No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
>>>but buying an injected bird is bad.
>>
>>That confuses me, too!
>
> Well since i have pretty well demonstrated i haven't a clue what i am
> talking about, and purely as a hobbyist, i would suggest that brining is
> a long process of hours and an injection of something in meat is a more
> immediate process with out the time for particular processes to take
> place, as in brining.

That's all true. Brining affects all the cells in the meat by literally
changing their physical characteristics. A 5% brine solution is my
favorite concentration (cup salt, gallon water) because it balances time
against intensity. The processes happening when brining are complex and
involve both osmosis and diffusion - but aren't important to the
culinary understanding. Injection just puts liquid in the intercellular
spaces which can slowly migrate into cells, but not as efficiently.

The process is that the salinity of the brine cause migration of
water-based juices out of the meat. After a while, an equilibrium is
established which causes the process to reverse so the solution goes
into the meat bringing any flavor elements with it. Typically, the meat
will absorb enough water and seasonings to increase the weight between
12% and 17%

But since cooking denatures protein and causes it to release water-based
juices, it happens here even more. But not enough to negate the effects
of proper brining. Net effect is that brining will make the meat more
moist to the bite, more tender and it will cause it to cook a bit more
quickly. Pan juices can be too salty for gravy-making - taste before
trying it.

> One can encourage injections though purely for flavor, injecting an
> herbal butter, or fruit purees into various cuts of meat can be very
> effective. "Larding" is similar when long strings of fat can be rolled
> in various herbs and spices and "larded" with a "larding needle" into
> various cuts of meat. Injecting various liquors and wines can be very
> rewarding.

Larding is putting any fat through meats. My favorite way it to cut
bacon strips lengthwise and freeze them. Poke holes in roasts or birds
with a (freshly washed) sharpening steel and push the bacon pieces
through. Larding needles are tricky to use, and are difficult to find
nowadays, since fat became a four-letter word.

>>I tried brining once and that was
>>>enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
>>>figure it out.
>>
>>I've never brined a chicken.
>
> I keep meaning to, i considered brining last winters turkey but did
> not. We get a local deli brined chicken that is so good i am tempted to
> learn to do it myself, from what i have read here on RFC it seems a
> simple enough process, but im still working on the difference between
> pickling and brining,

Pickling is a preservation process. Brining, in this context, is a
flavoring, tenderizing and accelerated cooking time process. Pickling
usually uses much more concentrated solutions.

> i keep thinking that if im going to brine why stop
> at just salt and water. I have eaten ham soaked in coca cola and
> thought it very good.

The Coke formed a surface glaze. It very likely didn't penetrate very
deeply into the meat.

> I keep thinking i want to brine with wine. But then that probly becomes
> a marinade.

Marinades typically contain oil and an acid plus flavoring ingredients.
The point of marinades is to flavor the outer tiny bit of the meat.

>
>>First, let me say that I do not like turkey.
>>One Thanksgiving I brined a bone-in turkey breast and rotisseried it
>>in the gas grill. It was the only turkey I can honestly say I enjoyed
>>eating.
>>
>>
>>>>About all I see regarding slicing cooked chicken-breast is this
>>>>"Slice the breasts on a diagonal." Is this just about all there is
>>>>to slicing a BONE-IN chicken breast?
>>>
>>>Take it off the bone and *then* slice.
>>
>>Good idea!

Works for turkey, too. That way you have a slab of meat that doesn't
have top accommodate bones.

Pastorio

"Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
28.19...
> On Sat 11 Mar 2006 10:51:44p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Joseph
> Littleshoes?
>
> > Wayne Boatwright wrote:
> >
(snip)

>
> This is the brine I used for the turkey breast. I brined it overnight.
>
> 1 cup lemon juice
> 3/4 cup fresh orange juice
> 1 cup Kosher salt
> 1 cup packed light brown sugar
> 1 cup chopped yellow onion
> 2 oranges, cut in half
> 3 cinnamon sticks
> 2 tablespoons whole cloves
> 2 tablespoons whole allspice berries
> 1 cup brandy
>
> I have since used it to brine whole Cornish game hens with excellent
> results. I stuffed the cavities with chunks of oranges.
>


Thanks for the recipe, Wayne. I'm gonna borrow it. TFM® has his own brine
recipe, but it uses hot sauce which I don't do, so he's never brined
anything for me. This one sounds more up my alley.

kili

sf wrote on 11 Mar 2006 in rec.food.cooking

> I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
> but buying an injected bird is bad.

Well let's see injected ...you shoot/force fluids into the bird increasing
it's weight. Brining...you soak the bird in a flavoured salt bath causing
the salty flavoured fluid to replace via osmosis some of the normal fluids
in the bird.

Also I don't believe the injected birds are flavour tailored to your
personal taste. As you can with a brine. See the various brine recipes that
use garlic powder, oj concentrate etc...

Brining...You buy the bird then mess with it's weight, hence only paying
per lb for chicken, not the 15% weight increase that would be salted water
if it were injected.

--
-Alan

> If you brined your chicken and can't tell, then you didn't brine
> it right, IMO. There's a world of difference between un brined
> and brined. And home-brined and factory brined as well.
>
> -sw

Yes, I'm asking about why 30 minutes vs. other amounts of time. Do you have
any advice to give re brining a chicken breast, as to why only 30 minutes
vs. longer?
Thanks,
Dee Dee

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>
>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>> About all I see regarding slicing cooked chicken-breast is this
>> "Slice the breasts on a diagonal." Is this just about all there is to
>> slicing a BONE-IN chicken breast?
>
> Take it off the bone and *then* slice.
> --

Hmm. Such a simple statement but:

Here's the drill: You've cooked the breast that has the bone in. You've
let it sit 5 minutes to retain the juices. It's still warm. You want to
take the meat off the bone. With your hands? Is there a certain technique.
Is it easily slideable offible? Do you slice it OUT with out knife?
Totally confused about taking a warm tasty piece of chicken breast off it's
bone and not demolish it so as to cut it in nice slices. Have you done
this? Or others, have you done this. Some have said that it's a good idea,
have you done this?

I have one breast left, but it's cold, I feel it's probably congealed around
it's bone. As I see it, it would be a bigger problem. Would I just start
slicing it and see what meat is left on the bone? Take that extra meat off
if I'm going to bake the bones for stock?

Thanks,
Dee Dee


Thanks

On Sun 12 Mar 2006 12:17:11a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Steve
Wertz?

> On 12 Mar 2006 06:28:15 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
> <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>On Sat 11 Mar 2006 09:23:34p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it sf?
>>
>>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>>>
>>>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>>>>
>>> No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
>>> but buying an injected bird is bad.
>>
>>That confuses me, too!
>
> 1. You're paying for water
> 2. There's almost always phosphates in there
> 3. You control the brining.
>
> Some of those brined pork chops and brined chickens taste like
> hell to me.
>
> If you brined your chicken and can't tell, then you didn't brine
> it right, IMO. There's a world of difference between un brined
> and brined. And home-brined and factory brined as well.

I have no problem telling when I've brined it, and it's always good. I've
just never understood why all the commercially injected stuff. Profit,
probably.

--
Wayne Boatwright o¿o
____________________

BIOYA

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:23:34 -0800, sf >
wrote:

>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>
>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>>
>No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
>but buying an injected bird is bad. I tried brining once and that was
>enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
>figure it out.

Because when they inject, you have no control over what they inject. When
you brine it yourself, you can introduce other flavours. My favourite
brines include bitter orange juice and some other spices, not just salt and
water.

--
Siobhan Perricone
"Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family,
people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-o and all the other things I can
prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have."
- Penn Jillette from his "This I Believe" essay

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 07:01:26 GMT, Joseph Littleshoes >
wrote:

>> > I keep thinking i want to brine with wine. But then that probly
>> becomes
>> > a marinade.
>>
>> Probably, depending on whether you're also using the salt.
>
>Very interesting. I have been wanting to experiment with salt in the
>marinade.

What makes a brine a brine is that it has a high salt and water content so
that the liquid will move into the cells of the meat. Areas of high
concentration of salt naturally move to areas of low concentration of salt,
in doing so, the salty water brings along with it any flavours you've put
in it. So the meat is both moist and subtly flavoured. Using just salt
water only makes the meat moist (and you shouldn't let it sit around for a
long time after taking it out of the brine, or the same general principle
will work in reverse and the moisture will drip out).

So the important thing is to make sure you've got enough water and salt to
make this process work. Whatever else you put in, you need to get the salt
concentration right.

--
Siobhan Perricone
"Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family,
people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-o and all the other things I can
prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have."
- Penn Jillette from his "This I Believe" essay

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:03:52 -0500, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>>>>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>
>I'd say that 30-minute brining is a token gesture. The formula posted is
>too concentrated for my tastes.

Which is why 30 minutes is enough to give the moisture. Thirty minutes on
chicken breasts is not just a token gesture. This is a natural process
that starts working immediately, and a cut of chicken is small enough that
it doesn't take all that long for the salt water to move into it.

--
Siobhan Perricone
"Believing there is no God gives me more room for belief in family,
people, love, truth, beauty, sex, Jell-o and all the other things I can
prove and that make this life the best life I will ever have."
- Penn Jillette from his "This I Believe" essay

On Sun 12 Mar 2006 01:59:34a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it kilikini?

>
> "Wayne Boatwright" <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message
> 28.19...
>> On Sat 11 Mar 2006 10:51:44p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Joseph
>> Littleshoes?
>>
>> > Wayne Boatwright wrote:
>> >
> (snip)
>
>>
>> This is the brine I used for the turkey breast. I brined it overnight.
>>
>> 1 cup lemon juice
>> 3/4 cup fresh orange juice
>> 1 cup Kosher salt
>> 1 cup packed light brown sugar
>> 1 cup chopped yellow onion
>> 2 oranges, cut in half
>> 3 cinnamon sticks
>> 2 tablespoons whole cloves
>> 2 tablespoons whole allspice berries
>> 1 cup brandy
>>
>> I have since used it to brine whole Cornish game hens with excellent
>> results. I stuffed the cavities with chunks of oranges.
>>
>
>
> Thanks for the recipe, Wayne. I'm gonna borrow it. TFM® has his own
> brine recipe, but it uses hot sauce which I don't do, so he's never
> brined anything for me. This one sounds more up my alley.


You're welcome! Hope you like it!

Oops, a correction. This mixture needs to be combined with 1 gallon of
water. Sorry!

--
Wayne Boatwright o¿o
____________________

BIOYA

On Sun 12 Mar 2006 06:37:13a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Dee
Randall?

>
> "sf" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>>
>>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>>> About all I see regarding slicing cooked chicken-breast is this
>>> "Slice the breasts on a diagonal." Is this just about all there is to
>>> slicing a BONE-IN chicken breast?
>>
>> Take it off the bone and *then* slice.
>> --
>
> Hmm. Such a simple statement but:
>
> Here's the drill: You've cooked the breast that has the bone in.
> You've let it sit 5 minutes to retain the juices. It's still warm. You
> want to take the meat off the bone. With your hands? Is there a
> certain technique. Is it easily slideable offible? Do you slice it OUT
> with out knife? Totally confused about taking a warm tasty piece of
> chicken breast off it's bone and not demolish it so as to cut it in nice
> slices. Have you done this? Or others, have you done this. Some have
> said that it's a good idea, have you done this?

I haven't done this with chicken breasts, but I have done it with turkey
and capon breasts. While the meat is still warm, using gloved hands I
gently work the entire hunk of meat away from the bone. It usually comes
away in one unbroken piece which is then easily sliced. I also do that
when I plan to slice it cold. As soon as it's off the bone, I wrap tightly
in plastic wrap, then foil.

> I have one breast left, but it's cold, I feel it's probably congealed
> around it's bone. As I see it, it would be a bigger problem. Would I
> just start slicing it and see what meat is left on the bone? Take that
> extra meat off if I'm going to bake the bones for stock?

Slice down as far as you can, then remove the remainder with your fingers.
There undoubtedly be meat that you cannot remove with the knife.

--
Wayne Boatwright o¿o
____________________

BIOYA

Wayne Boatwright wrote:

> On Sun 12 Mar 2006 12:17:11a, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it Steve
> Wertz?
>
> > On 12 Mar 2006 06:28:15 +0100, Wayne Boatwright
> > <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>On Sat 11 Mar 2006 09:23:34p, Thus Spake Zarathustra, or was it sf?
> >>
> >>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
> >>>
> > If you brined your chicken and can't tell, then you didn't brine
> > it right, IMO. There's a world of difference between un brined
> > and brined. And home-brined and factory brined as well.
>
> I have no problem telling when I've brined it, and it's always good.
> I've
> just never understood why all the commercially injected stuff.
> Profit,
> probably.

Ooops...my mistake i thought you meant home injection via a 'flavorator'
or other injection system.
---
JL

>
>
> --
> Wayne Boatwright o¿o
> ____________________
>
> BIOYA

Dee Randall wrote:

> I have one breast left, but it's cold, I feel it's probably congealed around
> it's bone. As I see it, it would be a bigger problem. Would I just start
> slicing it and see what meat is left on the bone? Take that extra meat off
> if I'm going to bake the bones for stock?

Actually, it's very easy to remove the meat from the bone. You don't
need a knife. Slide your finger between the meat and the bone (starting
at the keel-edge and poking all the way to the outer edge) and then
slide it to the ends, keeping tightly to the bone. The meat comes off in
a tidy piece.

To get cooked meat off, use a fork. Slide it under the meat against the
bone. Hold the bone down and lift the meat. Most of it will come off
rather neatly. If it looks like it won't, slide the fork back and forth
under the meat and finish lifting.

Pastorio

On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:44:24 -0500, Siobhan Perricone wrote:

> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:23:34 -0800, sf >
> wrote:
>
> >On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
> >
> >> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
> >>
> >No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
> >but buying an injected bird is bad. I tried brining once and that was
> >enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
> >figure it out.
>
> Because when they inject, you have no control over what they inject. When
> you brine it yourself, you can introduce other flavours. My favourite
> brines include bitter orange juice and some other spices, not just salt and
> water.

The one time I brined a bird was so long ago I don't remember what the
recipe was, but the end result was I didn't think it was worth the
time or the trouble. Quite honestly, I wouldn't consider a citrus
brine. I'm not all a-twitter about sticking a lemon inside my chicken
either. I like a savory flavor on a crispy skin and I want my chicken
meat to taste like chicken.
--

Practice safe eating. Always use condiments.

Siobhan Perricone wrote:
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 03:03:52 -0500, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>>
>> I'd say that 30-minute brining is a token gesture. The formula
>> posted is too concentrated for my tastes.

The original brine formula was: 1 cup salt + 2 quarts water

I'm going to answer two of your posts to this topic together here,
Siobhan. As I thought about it, some things I "knew" didn't mesh, so I
went out looking. I had to do that most annoying of things - change my
mind. I misunderstood some of the mechanisms and some of the biology of
meat structure.

> Which is why 30 minutes is enough to give the moisture. Thirty
> minutes on chicken breasts is not just a token gesture. This is a
> natural process that starts working immediately,

For them as haven't been following all this, here's a site that details
rather tidily some of the physical processes at work in brining meat.
<http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/kinetic/diffus.html>

> and a cut of chicken is small enough that it doesn't take all that
> long for the salt water to move into it.

Sorta. The greater the concentration, the faster it will begin, and
theoretically, the faster it will proceed to completion. If it's
permitted to go to completion. But if it's only immersed for a short
time, the brine will only affect a small number of cells. It won't get
to the innermost cells any more quickly, and may actually be slowed by
the turgor of the outer cells.

If it were so that 30 minutes is enough time to get a true brine in a
large half-breast still on the bone, a whole chicken shouldn't take
appreciably longer. But it does.

------------
> What makes a brine a brine is that it has a high salt and water
> content so that the liquid will move into the cells of the meat.

Seawater is roughly a 3.7% salt solution (5 ounces/gallon - 1/2 cup). A
saturated brine is about a 26% solution (3 pounds/gallon - 3 2/3 cups).
Culinary brines customarily run between 3% and 7% (1/2 cup/gallon to 1
cup/gallon). Some brines for special applications (brining salmon for
smoking, for example) can run higher.

> Areas of high concentration of salt naturally move to areas of low
> concentration of salt,

The concentration of solutes in the cells needs to be considered here as
well.

Osmosis - Diffusion of fluid through a semipermeable membrane from a
solution with a low solute concentration to a solution with a higher
solute concentration until there is an equal concentration of fluid on
both sides of the membrane.

Diffusion - Diffusion is the movement of particles from higher chemical
potential to lower chemical potential (chemical potential can in most
cases of diffusion be represented by a change in concentration).

But it's still more complex than that.

Here's a note from an online forum:
<http://www.bioedonline.org/forums/messageview.cfm?thread=1775>
----------- begin quote -------------
"This is the explanation I found on CooksIllustrated.com:
"Many have attributed the added juiciness of brined chicken to
osmosis—the flow of water across a barrier from a place with a higher
water concentration (the brine) to a place with a lower one (the chicken)."

"I decided to test this explanation. If osmosis is in fact the source of
the added juiciness of brined meat, I reasoned, then a bucket of pure
unsalted water should add moisture at least as well as a brine, because
water alone has the highest water concentration possible: 100 percent.
After soaking one chicken in brine and another in water for the same
amount of time, I found that both had gained moisture, about 6 percent
by weight. Satisfied that osmosis was indeed the force driving the
addition of moisture to meat during brining, I roasted the two birds,
along with a third straight out of the package. I would soon discover
that osmosis was not the only reason why brined meat cooked up juicy.
During roasting, the chicken taken straight from the package lost 18
percent of its original weight, and the chicken soaked in water lost 12
percent of its presoak weight. Remarkably, the brined bird shed only a
mere 7 percent of its starting weight. Looking at my test results, I
realized that the benefit of brining could not be explained by osmosis
alone. Salt, too, was playing a crucial role by aiding in the retention
of water.

"Table salt is made up of two ions, sodium and chloride, that are
oppositely charged. Proteins, such as those in meat, are large molecules
that contain a mosaic of charges, negative and positive. When proteins
are placed in a solution containing salt, they readjust their shape to
accommodate the opposing charges. This rearrangement of the protein
molecules compromises the structural integrity of the meat, reducing its
overall toughness. It also creates gaps that fill up with water. The
added salt makes the water less likely to evaporate during cooking, and
the result is meat that is both juicy and tender."
------- end quote ---------------

A food scientist I know said that the stages of processing start with
the brine extracting liquid from the cells, then reversing and having
the saline enter the cell. He said turgor was the clue there; he
measured it during the process. The cells become flaccid then replete.
He also said he couldn't explain why it did that.

> in doing so, the salty water brings along with it any flavours you've
> put in it. So the meat is both moist and subtly flavoured.

With a high percentage saline brine, the meat will taste salty if fully
brined.

> Using just salt water only makes the meat moist (and you shouldn't
> let it sit around for a long time after taking it out of the brine,
> or the same general principle will work in reverse and the moisture
> will drip out).

There are two major ways I've used to handle brined meats:

1) Remove from brine, rinse surfaces to remove salt and immediately cook.

@) Rinse and then put brined meats in the fridge, uncovered, for a while
- I do at least 8 hours, usually 12 or so. Yes, some liquid will
"purge," but a "pellicle" will form on the surface. A thin film that
seems to reduce purge of both fats and water-based juices in cooking. I
get a measured finished loss of initial weight around 7% or 8%, less
than the 10% to 12% or so that have been normal with brined meats I've
cooked immediately. Unbrined meats will generally purge twice the brined
loss, depending on degree of doneness - more done, more loss. In the
quoted note above, the experimenter got numbers in approximately the
same ranges as mine. People who brine and smoke fish or meats routinely
go the pellicle route.

> So the important thing is to make sure you've got enough water and
> salt to make this process work. Whatever else you put in, you need
> to get the salt concentration right.

Finely ground salt is roughly 10 ounces weight per cup. Brine solutions
for home use are best between 5% and 7% - roughly 2/3 cup to 1 cup per
gallon, although some people will go as low as seawater at a bit over
3%. The one in the original post was 1 cup salt + 2 quarts water - more
than 13% solution - four times saltier than seawater.

A 5% solution will finally reach an equilibrium where the meat won't
absorb any more liquid, and it won't seem salty in the eating. All
solutions will seek equilibrium, but some will be too weak (3%) and some
too strong (7% - for my tastes). The flavor improvement is optimal and
there's small chance of messing it up. Adding sugar, (generally about
1/4 to 1/2 the amount of salt) lowers osmotic pressure slightly, effectively
raising the brine concentration, but it's not generally enough to stop
the process.

The reason, in this case, for the short time in the recipe is probably
because they don't want the meat to be fully brined. If it were, it
would be extremely salty. Net effect is that only the outer cells will be
brined in that short time. I would characterize that more as seasoning
than true brining where the whole piece of meat is affected.

And, yes, it would improve the flavor of the meat as long as you got
some surface in each bite, but it wouldn't cause as much absorption as a
lower concentration brine with the meat left in it for a longer period
of time. So it wouldn't get the moisture and tenderness value of brining.

Zowie, this is a complicated thing... But it sure does make the meats
taste and eat better. I think I'm ready for the quiz now...

No, seriously...

Pastorio

"Steve Wertz" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:30:23 -0500, "Dee Randall"
> > wrote:
>
>>> If you brined your chicken and can't tell, then you didn't brine
>>> it right, IMO. There's a world of difference between un brined
>>> and brined. And home-brined and factory brined as well.
>>
>>Yes, I'm asking about why 30 minutes vs. other amounts of time. Do you
>>have
>>any advice to give re brining a chicken breast, as to why only 30 minutes
>>vs. longer?
>
> I've seen that episode and I thought 30 minutes was waste of time.
> No brine is going to penetrate the meat in 30 minutes. You want
> to get the meat thoroughly saturated. Not just the outer 1/2".
>
> I brine by chicken pieces for 5-7 hours, or usually overnight with
> a slightly less salty brine than I'd use for the 7 hour brine.
>
> -sw

Thanks for your opinion. I value it.
Dee Dee

"sf" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 12 Mar 2006 08:44:24 -0500, Siobhan Perricone wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:23:34 -0800, sf >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 19:27:59 -0500, Dee Randall wrote:
>> >
>> >> Any help appreciated regarding 30-minute brining.
>> >>
>> >No help here. I'm constantly confoosled about why brining is good,
>> >but buying an injected bird is bad. I tried brining once and that was
>> >enough to convince me there wasn't a big enough difference for me to
>> >figure it out.
>>
>> Because when they inject, you have no control over what they inject.
>> When
>> you brine it yourself, you can introduce other flavours. My favourite
>> brines include bitter orange juice and some other spices, not just salt
>> and
>> water.
>
> The one time I brined a bird was so long ago I don't remember what the
> recipe was, but the end result was I didn't think it was worth the
> time or the trouble. Quite honestly, I wouldn't consider a citrus
> brine. I'm not all a-twitter about sticking a lemon inside my chicken
> either. I like a savory flavor on a crispy skin and I want my chicken
> meat to taste like chicken.

The brine suggested by CI was salt & water.
Thanks,
Dee Dee