Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
remember what.

Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
alternative?

On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 20:19:34 -0800, Abe > wrote:

>Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>remember what.

I also read this in Peter Reinhardt's book, The Bread Baker's
Apprentice. I will take a look and see if he recommends anything
else, but I don't think he does, as the yeast will activate even
without sugar. After all, most classic French and Italian type
breads only have flour, yeast, salt and water as the ingredients, and
they rise quite well without the addition of sugar.

But I could be wrong on this: let me look and see if there is anything
recommended.

Christine

Abe wrote:
> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
> remember what.
>
> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
> alternative?
>

http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/GEFP/index.htm

Click on 'Title' or 'Food or Topic' in the left column under EPISODE
INDEX. From there you can click on the transcript of the show.

>Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>remember what.
>Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>alternative?

If you're that worried about it, try an equal amount of honey instead
of the sugar. But I really feel compelled to say a few words here.

Having seen many of his shows, I am convinced that Alton Brown is 51%
science-minded cook and 49% goofball and as such he is prone to
crossing the line into questionable advice. Cane sugar works fine as a
"first course" for yeast in making bread. A tablespoon of sugar for
every two cups of bread flour will not give you bad bread or weird
results. It will, however, help your bread rise in less than seven
hours. I once watched Mr. Brown cook a steak by tossing it directly
onto burning charcoal on his show. He is just a little bit crazy
sometimes.

I've never used sugar, and never had a problem, even with very small amounts
of yeast.

"Abe" > wrote in message
...
> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
> remember what.
>
> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
> alternative?
>

Abe wrote:
> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
> remember what.
>
> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
> alternative?
>


Table sugar is sucrose, which is a double sugar made up of one glucose
and one fructose molecule tied together. IIRC, it is a "left handed"
sugar, where glucose and fructose are both "right handed." The yeast
has to break the bond between these sugars before it can utilize them --
but yeast has an enzyme (invertase?) that readily does this. Really,
the yeast doesn't mind doing this extra step.

Alton probably recommended honey or dextrose or maybe "invert sugar".
Use whatever sweetener you want; baker's yeast can use the starch in the
flour if it doesn't like your sugar. French bread contains no added
sugars at all.

Best regards,
Bob

Abe wrote:

> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
> remember what.
>
> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
> alternative?
>

I don't know his reason for not using table (assuming white) sugar in
yeast dough but I will tell you mine. White sugar is highly refined so
I avoid it. White sugar does not add any flavour to the bread. I use
molasses, honey, maple syup, or raw sugar. Molasses gives little
sweetness but contributes a dark colour and unique flavour. Honeys vary
in colour and flavour depending on where the bees were. I buy unrefined
honeys locally from 2 different beekeepers. Unrefined honey functions
as a natural preservative in bread and helps maintain moisture. Maple
syrup retains all of its nutrients even at high temperatures. I use
Canada #1 medium for cooking.

Abe wrote:
> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
> remember what.
>
> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
> alternative?

Alton Brown is full of it.

On 14 Mar 2006 15:57:11 -0800, "djs0302" > wrote:

>
>Abe wrote:
>> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>> remember what.
>>
>> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>> alternative?
>
>Alton Brown is full of it.

Not really.

Peter Reinhardt, who has been a baker for a long time, and who has
written some highly regarded books on bread baking has this to say in
his book The Bread Baker's Apprentice:

"During yeast fermentation, the yeast can feed properly ONLY on the
most simple sugars like glucose, and to a lesser extent, on
fructose...."

Later on in the same section on yeast fermentation:

"the yeast can't feed on sucrose, or table sugar, because it is a
two-chain sugar and thus too complex for the yeast."

Christine

Christine Dabney wrote:

> On 14 Mar 2006 15:57:11 -0800, "djs0302" > wrote:
>
>>Abe wrote:
>>
>>>Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>>>yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>>>utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>>>remember what.
>>>
>>>Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>>>alternative?
>>
>>Alton Brown is full of it.
>
>
> Not really.
>
> Peter Reinhardt, who has been a baker for a long time, and who has
> written some highly regarded books on bread baking has this to say in
> his book The Bread Baker's Apprentice:
>
> "During yeast fermentation, the yeast can feed properly ONLY on the
> most simple sugars like glucose, and to a lesser extent, on
> fructose...."
>
> Later on in the same section on yeast fermentation:
>
> "the yeast can't feed on sucrose, or table sugar, because it is a
> two-chain sugar and thus too complex for the yeast."


Then why is it that bread will rise perfectly well without any
added sugars?

One might get the wrong impression from what Reinhardt (and
Alton) is saying here, i.e. that some added sugar is important
for adequate fermentation.

Yeast *does* metabolize sucrose, just not quite as efficiently
as other simple sugars. It's a minor difference, however.

Yeast feeds perfectly well on maltose, a sugar produced
by the action of the enzyme amylase on damaged starches.
Damaged starches are produced in large amounts by the
wheat milling process. Large enough for the yeast, anyway.

In bread, sugar is mainly a flavoring agent. It makes the
bread sweeter. The yeast doesn't need it though. In fact, in
large enough amounts it will actually inhibit fermentation.
This is true of any sugar, or any solute for that matter.

In my opinion, this is one area where Alton Brown is rather
is "full of it" as was suggested. Kind of like his beer
episode. He's not perfect.

--
Reg

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:55:11 GMT, Reg > wrote:

>Then why is it that bread will rise perfectly well without any
>added sugars?

Again, more from Reinhardt:

"There is a small amount of these simple sugars (glucose and fructose)
naturally present in flour, mostly due to starch damage caused during
the milling process, in which some of the glucose strands are bruised.
This is what allows French bread to rise even though no sugar is added
to the dough.

While the dough is fermenting, the amylase and diastase enyzmes go to
work on the starches, breaking down the complex starch molecules into
simpler components by breaking out the sugars."

Christine

On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:55:11 GMT, Reg > wrote:

>One might get the wrong impression from what Reinhardt (and
>Alton) is saying here, i.e. that some added sugar is important
>for adequate fermentation.

Reinhardt does not say that some added sugar is important for added
fermentation.

Christine

Christine Dabney wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:55:11 GMT, Reg > wrote:
>
>
>>Then why is it that bread will rise perfectly well without any
>>added sugars?
>
>
> Again, more from Reinhardt:
>
> "There is a small amount of these simple sugars (glucose and fructose)
> naturally present in flour, mostly due to starch damage caused during
> the milling process, in which some of the glucose strands are bruised.
> This is what allows French bread to rise even though no sugar is added
> to the dough.
>
> While the dough is fermenting, the amylase and diastase enyzmes go to
> work on the starches, breaking down the complex starch molecules into
> simpler components by breaking out the sugars."
>
> Christine

Yes, exactly what I said. You know, the part you snipped.

--
Reg

Christine Dabney wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Mar 2006 00:55:11 GMT, Reg > wrote:
>
>
>>One might get the wrong impression from what Reinhardt (and
>>Alton) is saying here, i.e. that some added sugar is important
>>for adequate fermentation.
>
>
> Reinhardt does not say that some added sugar is important for added
> fermentation.


And his point about sucrose has little or no significance with
regard to bread fermentation.

--
Reg

On 14 Mar 2006 02:52:17 -0800, "Christopher Helms"
> wrote:

>>Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>>yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>>utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>>remember what.
>>Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>>alternative?
>
>If you're that worried about it, try an equal amount of honey instead
>of the sugar. But I really feel compelled to say a few words here.
>
>Having seen many of his shows, I am convinced that Alton Brown is 51%
>science-minded cook and 49% goofball and as such he is prone to
>crossing the line into questionable advice. Cane sugar works fine as a
>"first course" for yeast in making bread. A tablespoon of sugar for
>every two cups of bread flour will not give you bad bread or weird
>results. It will, however, help your bread rise in less than seven
>hours. I once watched Mr. Brown cook a steak by tossing it directly
>onto burning charcoal on his show. He is just a little bit crazy
>sometimes.


If you want to add sugar to your yeast bread dough, you may, of
course, but it is not needed to make the dough rise.

If your bread is taking 7 hours to rise, you have something else
functioning in your recipe or technique that is causing it to take
that long.

With sourdough breads, a 7 hour rise is not unusual, but it is for
yeast added breads unless you are retarding the dough in the
refrigerator.

Boron

"djs0302" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Abe wrote:
>> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>> remember what.
>>
>> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>> alternative?
>
> Alton Brown is full of it.
>

Gee, what an insightful and intelligent comment. I bet you completed the 7th
grade, maybe even the 8th, wow! We shall eagerly await your next Olympian
pronouncement.


--
Peter Aitken

Peter Aitken wrote:
>
> Gee, what an insightful and intelligent comment. I bet you completed the 7th
> grade, maybe even the 8th, wow! We shall eagerly await your next Olympian
> pronouncement.
>
>
> --
> Peter Aitken

Shut up.

djs0302 wrote:
> Peter Aitken wrote:
>
>>Gee, what an insightful and intelligent comment. I bet you completed the 7th
>>grade, maybe even the 8th, wow! We shall eagerly await your next Olympian
>>pronouncement.
>
> Shut up.

Ouch. Peter, I don't know if you can withstand much more of this
dazzling - if spare - repartee. I mean the damage inflicted on you is
probably terminal. Nearly.

I mean you know a lot of good science and stuff. Practical info. But
look at the contrast between your posting and this one. I'm sure you can
see how overmatched you are.

No, seriously...

Pastorio

On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:09:21 -0800, Christine Dabney
> wrote:

>On 14 Mar 2006 15:57:11 -0800, "djs0302" > wrote:
>
>>
>>Abe wrote:
>>> Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>>> yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>>> utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>>> remember what.
>>>
>>> Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>>> alternative?
>>
>>Alton Brown is full of it.
>
>Not really.
>
>Peter Reinhardt, who has been a baker for a long time, and who has
>written some highly regarded books on bread baking has this to say in
>his book The Bread Baker's Apprentice:
>
>"During yeast fermentation, the yeast can feed properly ONLY on the
>most simple sugars like glucose, and to a lesser extent, on
>fructose...."
>
>Later on in the same section on yeast fermentation:
>
>"the yeast can't feed on sucrose, or table sugar, because it is a
>two-chain sugar and thus too complex for the yeast."
>
>Christine

Alton explained this in his show on beer making. He said to put the
surar in a pan with some water and bring it to a boil. This changes
the sugar to a compound that the yeast can use.
Jerry

JERRY MINASI wrote:
> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:09:21 -0800, Christine Dabney
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On 14 Mar 2006 15:57:11 -0800, "djs0302" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Abe wrote:
>>>
>>>>Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>>>>yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>>>>utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>>>>remember what.
>>>>
>>>>Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>>>>alternative?
>>>
>>>Alton Brown is full of it.
>>
>>Not really.
>>
>>Peter Reinhardt, who has been a baker for a long time, and who has
>>written some highly regarded books on bread baking has this to say in
>>his book The Bread Baker's Apprentice:
>>
>>"During yeast fermentation, the yeast can feed properly ONLY on the
>>most simple sugars like glucose, and to a lesser extent, on
>>fructose...."
>>
>>Later on in the same section on yeast fermentation:
>>
>>"the yeast can't feed on sucrose, or table sugar, because it is a
>>two-chain sugar and thus too complex for the yeast."
>>
>>Christine
>
>
> Alton explained this in his show on beer making. He said to put the
> surar in a pan with some water and bring it to a boil. This changes
> the sugar to a compound that the yeast can use.
> Jerry


But it's not true, even if Alton Brown *and* Peter Reinhardt said it.
Yeast can easily split the sucrose into its component glucose and
fructose. (I think I've said that before.) If you don't believe me,
dissolve some table sugar in warm water and add yeast; see what happens.

Boiling sugar in water is not enough to invert it. Boiling it for a
long time with a little acid will do it, but it's not necessary. BTW,
maltose, the sugar that is fermented when making beer, is also a double
sugar. It contains two glucose molecules.

What you have here is self-appointed experts borrowing ideas from each
other when neither knows what he is talking about.

Bob

JERRY MINASI wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Mar 2006 16:09:21 -0800, Christine Dabney
> > wrote:
>
>
>>On 14 Mar 2006 15:57:11 -0800, "djs0302" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Abe wrote:
>>>
>>>>Alton brown said in a show that table sugar is not good for using in a
>>>>yeast dough because of its structure. Supposedly the yeast can't
>>>>utilize it well. He recommended using something else instead - I can't
>>>>remember what.
>>>>
>>>>Is this true about using table sugar? If so, what's a better
>>>>alternative?
>>>
>>>Alton Brown is full of it.
>>
>>Not really.
>>
>>Peter Reinhardt, who has been a baker for a long time, and who has
>>written some highly regarded books on bread baking has this to say in
>>his book The Bread Baker's Apprentice:
>>
>>"During yeast fermentation, the yeast can feed properly ONLY on the
>>most simple sugars like glucose, and to a lesser extent, on
>>fructose...."
>>
>>Later on in the same section on yeast fermentation:
>>
>>"the yeast can't feed on sucrose, or table sugar, because it is a
>>two-chain sugar and thus too complex for the yeast."
>>
>>Christine
>
>
> Alton explained this in his show on beer making. He said to put the
> surar in a pan with some water and bring it to a boil. This changes
> the sugar to a compound that the yeast can use.
> Jerry


Alton is stating something that is true, strictly speaking,
but isn't really relevant, at least for the conditions
that the average home baker works in.

He's implying sucrose (table sugar) doesn't feed yeast
very well. Total bullshit.

I've been baking for many years and have experimented with
many differerent type of sugars to augment fermentation.
Maltose (malt sugar), sucrose, fructose, etc.

Experience (as opposed to just reading) will show you
that sucrose feeds yeast just fine. Take several
different types of sugars and add it to warm water
and yeast in measured amounts. The amount of fermentation
will be very close for all of them.

--
Reg