> Someone else mentioned coffee, which I am also "addicted" to.

Last I heard, the scientific evidence was pretty clear that there exists
an addictive personality type -- you either have it or you don't. If
you have it, anything can become an addiction: alcohol, tobacco, drugs,
gambling, sex, etc. If you don't have it, it's harder (but obviously
not impossible) for the addiction to take hold.

--
Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995
http://www.SteigerFamily.com
Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a
Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31
Remove "removethis" from address to reply

Sylvia wrote:
>
> > Someone else mentioned coffee, which I am also "addicted" to.
>
> Last I heard, the scientific evidence was pretty clear that there exists
> an addictive personality type


Caffeine is a physically addictive substance.




Brian Rodenborn

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 16:10:41 GMT, Sylvia
> wrote:

> > Aversion therapy, you mean?
>
>Aversion therapy would be associating taking a drink with some other
>negative outcome. I'm just taking advantage of a kid's normal "yuck"
>reaction to satisfy their normal curiosity at a time when they don't
>have peers urging them to drink into unconsciousness. No doubt part of
>the conditioning is that we don't drink much so there is no "adults
>only" mystique about drinking.

So far it's working with my daughter. Now, granted she's only four
years old, but when ever my wife and I are drinking something
alcoholic we'll offer her a taste.

Took all of one taste of my bourbon and water to convince her she
wanted nothing more to do with it. She actually tried mine and my
wife's glasses of wine before deciding she wanted nothing to do with
that either. Same for beer.

If we have wine with supper I pour her a small shot type glass of it.
She's not required to drink it. It's just there if she wants it and
so far she hasn't wanted any.

We plan to continue that way. No mystique, no 'it's grown up to
drink', no curiosity. She can have a taste when she wants it. When
she gets one she doesn't want anymore.

> Likewise, my son had expressed a desire
>to try a cigarette, so I bought one from a smoker yesterday and let him
>try it. He took a nice deep puff, coughed for three minutes, and
>complained for the next half-hour how awful his mouth tasted --
>completely satisfactory from my POV. My amateur conditioning may not
>stand up to peer pressure to smoke or drink, but I've given it my best
>shot. (We also discuss why people smoke/drink/do drugs, negative
>consequences, and why peers might want to pressure them to join in.)

My grandfather broke me from wanting to smoke in a similar manner.

He smoked, but my grandmother wouldn't let him smoke in the house.
One day while we were standing outside the garage so he could smoke a
cigarette I asked him for one. I was about ten at the time and he
didn't turn a hair. Just shook out one of his unfiltered Camels for
me then handed me a kitchen match to light it. All he said was "you
gotta drag deep."

He died at the age of 84 from congestive heart failure and emphysema
brought on by a lifetime of smoking, but from the day he gave me that
cigarette I've never had any interest in them further.

> > A lot of kids sip from parents drinks. Some become alcoholics,
>others not.
>
>Other than Gary, I've NEVER heard of a child given alcohol who later
>turned into an alcoholic. Your source for this statement?

My family has had it's share of alcoholics. If there is any rhyme or
reason of why one person turned into one while others did not it's
never been apparent to me.

......Alan.


Post no bills

>From: Craig Welch

>What utter nonsense. The beer might well be in aluminium kegs, and
>there's a certain sentimental attachment to wooden kegs. But the
>whole method of promulgation, with kegs, gas etc. provides a totally
>different drink to that in tins or bottles. A better one, without
>exception (unless the pub doesn't clean its lines often enough!)

Yup. I've had the good fortune to drink great handcrafted beers and can't
imagine how much better it could be 50 years ago, given the wide range of
superior ingredients available these days.

I'm very fond of bottled beers including, but not exclusive to Butte Creek
Organic Porter and Ale, St. Peter's Organic Ale; Pikes, Deschutes and Mirror
Pond, plus some excellent ones from England (imported here to Florida) that I
can't recall right now. URP!.

McMenamens in Eugene, OR made some pretty good beers, enjoyed solely on tap -
though they never did figure out the importance of a sterile pints washing
system that didn't include nasty cleaning agents that left a highly detectable
odor on them which seriously diminished my enjoyment of drinking "in". No
worries in Oregon, tho. It was legal to bring in your own container and have it
filled with tap beer and lambric to enjoy at home.

Ellen

In article >, wrote:


> Bull! Yuengling brewery, for one, sells unpastureized beer that
> is aged in wooden barrels, though it is shipped in aluminum kegs.
> Not sure what you think is/was more real about beer from 50 years
> ago, but the most common reason given for beer being different
> now is the pastureizing process.


That's my understanding also. My wife and I took a tour of the local
Budweiser factory some years back, before they gave tours. My wife was a
food chemist, and belonged to some foody tech group, so they gave a group
tour. I wasn't too impressed. 99% of the tour was focused on the
bottling line. I thought that was pretty boring. They were clear that
the beer going into the aluminum barrels was not pasteurized and the beer
in cans and bottles was. We did get a look at the tanks where the beer
was brewed. They made my house look tiny! Somebody asked about
"beechwood aged". The tour guide laughed, and walked up to this huge
tank, opened up a little door, and pulled out a tray with little chunks of
wood on it. I would guess that the volume of wood was about half a
gallon. The guide said they had some kind of story about the wood acting
as a catalyst to settle the yeast, but admitted that the wood couldn't
possibly alter the taste of the beer, given the volume of wood and the
size of the tank. At the end we were taken to the tasting room, where the
beer tasted much better than what you buy at the store. I'm convinced
that the only difference was that the beer in the tasting room was yanked
off the bottling line before it went into the pasteurizing machine.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

PENMART01 wrote:
If you're under 50 years old
> you've never tasted real draught beer on tap... in fact you've never taste any
> real beer.

Not quite true. I'm well under fifty, and have enjoyed many draughts on
tap in Europe. In fact years ago had some great Pilsen right in
Czechoslovakia not far from the factory that *still* had a horse drawn
wagon carrying those barrels around. So I've tasted some pretty good
damn beers.

Sylvia wrote:

> > A lot of kids sip from parents drinks. Some become alcoholics,
> others not.
>
> Other than Gary, I've NEVER heard of a child given alcohol who later
> turned into an alcoholic. Your source for this statement?

My sister. We grew up in an Italian household. We were allowed wine at
meals, and sips of mixed drinks or beer if we asked. Five kids. One
became an alcoholic.
Goomba

Sylvia writes:
>
>Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths

Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've driven
across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either direction.


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

PENMART01 wrote:

> >> While espresso may seem stronger in taste it does not have more caffeine.
> >> In all reality it has about a third of American style brewed coffee.
> >>
> >> Cristina
> >
> >I beg to differ. Whenever I drink even a small cup of expresso, I get a
> >definite buzz from it that lasts for hours. Maybe you ate thinking of
> >cappuccino or something else that's mixed with other things, but not the
> >expresso *I* know.
> >
> >Gary
>
> You are speaking of that black coffee caffeine jolt. With espresso the
> caffeine is more concentrated so that jolt will be immediate, but when drinking
> American style coffee black the effect of that jolt will soon catch up.
>
> A 2oz cup of typical espresso will contain caffeine about equal with a 6oz cup
> of typical American style coffee... naturally if mixed with milk or cream the
> available caffeine in either will not be so readily absorbed therefore that
> immediate caffeine jolt will not be experienced, but ultimately about the same
> amount of caffeine will eventually get absorbed, the milk/cream will act not
> only as buffer but also as a time release agent.

Hmmm... interesting. Thanks.

Gary



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Sylvia wrote:

> > It's called "conditioning".
>
> Unless your parents were urging you to drink or associating it with
> something positive (parental approval? being like dad?), conditioning
> wouldn't apply. Conditioning would be getting the kid past the initial
> "yuck" reaction to get used to it. Peter's margaritas aren't very
> strong either, but our kids still have no desire to try them more than
> once. Maybe I misunderstood, but it sounded like you actually liked the
> drinks, and that is more typical of a genetic predisposition than
> conditioning.

I can't speak for sis, but apparently I did like it, as I would go back and
forth trying to get sips of beer or highballs. But, sis didn't become an
alcoholic, and I did. If it were pure genetics, wouldn't we both have become
alcoholics?

Gary



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"A.T. Hagan" wrote:

> >It's a dark roast coffee, that uses a special machine to make very small, very
> >powerful coffee, sort of like Chicory and other coffees found in Louisiana.
> >
> >Gary
>
> With a flavor much reminescent of tar.
>
> .....Alan.

Yes, it's definitely an "acquired taste".

Gary



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Sylvia wrote:

> > I went out on my 21st birthday and had 21 different drinks.
>
> I think there is a genetic predisposition as well. Mine is a little
> different than yours: the taste interferes with my ability to drink. I
> set out to get drunk one night just to see what it feels like. (Yes, I
> was young and stupid.) I ordered a drink I like (sloe gin fizz) and
> drinking as fast as I could, I managed to get it down in only an hour
> and a half.
>
> --
> Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995
> http://www.SteigerFamily.com
> Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a
> Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31
> Remove "removethis" from address to reply

Speaking of aversion, when I was in basic training, we had a few days off,
so I proceeded to the EM club with the intent to get drunk for the first
time in my life. I choose Boone's Farm Apple Wine. Well, I did indeed get
drunk! But, my big mistake was taking that first (and last) bite of pizza!
Everything came back up, and *I* was a stinking, drunken mess that had to
be "escorted" back to the barracks, only to find that my bunk would not
hold still! After that, although I still drank, I could never again stand
Boone's Farm Apple Wine, and even the small made me sick.

Gary




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Sylvia wrote:

> > I don't think habituation or addiction to alcohol has everything to do
> > with early experiences.
>
> On that we agree. I believe there is also a genetic and a cultural
> component -- your young friends who had wine with dinner, were they
> European? If the culture is that a glass or two of wine with dinner is
> acceptable but getting drunk is unacceptable, that's the pattern they
> are likely to develop.
>
> Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths and the
> legislature keeps trying new laws to get rid of drunk driving. I am
> absolutely sure that until we change society's attitude from "I'm so
> drunk, let's go drive to Jack's house and play pool" to "I'm so drunk,
> let's take a cab to Jack's house and play pool" our drunk driving
> problem is going to remain awful.
>
> --
> Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995
> http://www.SteigerFamily.com
> Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a
> Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31
> Remove "removethis" from address to reply

I wonder if Wyoming's (Cheyenne's) drinking problem has anything to do with
having the nation's largest liquor "super market"??? )

Gary




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cristina wrote:

> Gary wrote:
> > I beg to differ. Whenever I drink even a small cup of expresso, I get
> > a definite buzz from it that lasts for hours. Maybe you ate thinking
> > of cappuccino or something else that's mixed with other things, but
> > not the expresso *I* know.
>
> The espresso that I have here in Italy is what I am talking about and yes it
> has less caffeine per serving. I think a lot of it is that we have been told
> over and over again by advertisers and coffee shops that espresso will give
> you that jolt so we (Americans) believe it and it becomes mind over matter.
> Funny thing, when my Italian friends need a quick wake up they make American
> style coffee.
>
> Cristina

But, I had no such presupposition about it when I went there, and had never even
heard of espresso beforehand. I just knew that if I had a long shift at the
radio station, a large glass of espresso WOULD keep me wired and wide awake for
the duration. )

Gary




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Sylvia wrote:

> > Someone else mentioned coffee, which I am also "addicted" to.
>
> Last I heard, the scientific evidence was pretty clear that there exists
> an addictive personality type -- you either have it or you don't. If
> you have it, anything can become an addiction: alcohol, tobacco, drugs,
> gambling, sex, etc. If you don't have it, it's harder (but obviously
> not impossible) for the addiction to take hold.
>
> --
> Sylvia Steiger RN, homeschooling mom since Nov 1995
> http://www.SteigerFamily.com
> Cheyenne WY, USDA zone 5a, Sunset zone 1a
> Home of the Wyoming Wind Festival, January 1-December 31
> Remove "removethis" from address to reply

I can't deny that. But, I can't help but recall a coffee shortage in America
some decades ago, too, and how so many otherwise respectable business people
were experiencing "withdrawals" because of the coffee shortage. I don't
think it can all be put down to addictive personalities.

Gary




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Craig Welch wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 06:36:48 -0600, Gary > wrote:
>
> >> >> What is 'expresso' coffee?
> >>
> >> >It's a dark roast coffee, that uses a special machine to make very small, very
> >> >powerful coffee, sort of like Chicory and other coffees found in Louisiana.
> >>
> >> Ah, sort of like espresso coffee?
>
> >My spell checker didn't know "espresso" and I was too tired to "think" about it
> >(probably would have helped if I had some espresso! )
>
> Odd. I just ran this post through the same spellcheck that you would
> have with your newsreader, and it knew 'espresso' but didn't know
> 'expresso'!
>
> --
> Craig

Hmmm... mine didn't catch it. But, with this goofy machine, that doesn't surprise me.
It often flags things and wants to replace them with the exact same thing I spelled
(usually hyphenated things).

Gary




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PENMART01 wrote:

> Sylvia writes:
>
>>Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
>
>
> Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've driven
> across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either direction.

Because they knew you were coming. The roads usually teem with eager
and bright residents and tourists. One word about you and pffffft.
Nobody wants to be nearby...

Pastorio

> ---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
> ---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
> Sheldon
> ````````````
> "Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."
>

Gary a écrit :

> I can't speak for sis, but apparently I did like it, as I would go back and
> forth trying to get sips of beer or highballs. But, sis didn't become an
> alcoholic, and I did. If it were pure genetics, wouldn't we both have become
> alcoholics?

No, or you would be a woman ;-)
Seriously, there are many genetic characteristics that get passed to one sibling
only - except maybe (*maybe* only, I'm not even sure) for monozygot twins.

Nathalie in Switzerland

Gary > wrote:
> Sylvia wrote:

> > > It's called "conditioning".
> >
> > Unless your parents were urging you to drink or associating it with
> > something positive (parental approval? being like dad?), conditioning
> > wouldn't apply. Conditioning would be getting the kid past the initial
> > "yuck" reaction to get used to it. Peter's margaritas aren't very
> > strong either, but our kids still have no desire to try them more than
> > once. Maybe I misunderstood, but it sounded like you actually liked the
> > drinks, and that is more typical of a genetic predisposition than
> > conditioning.

> I can't speak for sis, but apparently I did like it, as I would go back and
> forth trying to get sips of beer or highballs. But, sis didn't become an
> alcoholic, and I did. If it were pure genetics, wouldn't we both have become
> alcoholics?

No. Not all the same genetic traits are inherited by children
of the same parents (except for identical twins). Siblings
might have different eye colors, for example. This does not mean
that alcoholism is purely genetic, but it can be, and probably is,
at least partly a genetic. Also, a genetic prediposition does
not guarantee something. Some people have a genetic predispostion
to certain types of cancer, but some of those people with that
genetic trait won't ever get cancer. Unlike eye color, there are
other factors that get involved with genetic predispositions.

Bill Ranck
Blacksburg, Va.

Hark! I heard (PENMART01) say:
> Sylvia writes:

> >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths

> Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
> driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
> direction.

Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
route we took (I-80, IIRC)...


--
j*ni m. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

wrote:

> Gary > wrote:
> > Sylvia wrote:
>
> > > > It's called "conditioning".
> > >
> > > Unless your parents were urging you to drink or associating it with
> > > something positive (parental approval? being like dad?), conditioning
> > > wouldn't apply. Conditioning would be getting the kid past the initial
> > > "yuck" reaction to get used to it. Peter's margaritas aren't very
> > > strong either, but our kids still have no desire to try them more than
> > > once. Maybe I misunderstood, but it sounded like you actually liked the
> > > drinks, and that is more typical of a genetic predisposition than
> > > conditioning.
>
> > I can't speak for sis, but apparently I did like it, as I would go back and
> > forth trying to get sips of beer or highballs. But, sis didn't become an
> > alcoholic, and I did. If it were pure genetics, wouldn't we both have become
> > alcoholics?
>
> No. Not all the same genetic traits are inherited by children
> of the same parents (except for identical twins). Siblings
> might have different eye colors, for example. This does not mean
> that alcoholism is purely genetic, but it can be, and probably is,
> at least partly a genetic. Also, a genetic prediposition does
> not guarantee something. Some people have a genetic predispostion
> to certain types of cancer, but some of those people with that
> genetic trait won't ever get cancer. Unlike eye color, there are
> other factors that get involved with genetic predispositions.
>
> Bill Ranck
> Blacksburg, Va.

Hmmm... sort of like sis' "fat gene" skipping a generation and showing up in her?

Gary




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j*ni wrote:

> Hark! I heard (PENMART01) say:
> > Sylvia writes:
>
> > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
>
> > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
> > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
> > direction.
>
> Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
> U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
> disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
> and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
> route we took (I-80, IIRC)...
>
> --
> j*ni m. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
> ...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

Be glad you don't have to deal with !@#$%^& tumble weeds! They are a real pain
(literally)! I have to deal with them all the time, and I have learned to hate
them.

Gary




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I've been trying to stay out of this and now find that I can't resist.
I'm not answering Gary specifically, more putting my two cents in for
the whole thread.

What makes an alcoholic is one of the most typical in the whole
nature/nurture debate. It is tricky because there's no single answer.
For every example, there's a counter example.

When we first learn about genetics, we usually get eye color as an
example. Eyes are blue or brown. (Green, gray, and hazel are all
considered, from a genetic standpoint, to be blue. Brown, dark brown,
and almost black are all considered, from a standpoint, to be brown.)
Environmental factors will have nothing to do with it. That includes
diet, early childhood trauma, exposure to sunlight. You name it, it has
nothing to do with it.

With alcoholism, it isn't like that. The best scientists at the moment
are now saying that genetics can give a person a predisposition to
alcoholism, and genetics can give a person a predispostion not to over
drink, but the circumstances of the way a person is brought up has a lot
to do with it too.

Brothers and sisters in the same family might have the same genetic
predisposition towards drinking. One, due to life experiences, might
end up an alcoholic. The other might not.

Brothers and sisters in the same family might have different genetic
predispositions towards drinking. The same differences in genetics that
cause them to look different can cause them to have differences in the
way their bodies react to alcohol.

There is also the matter of degree. Instead of thinking of the genes
for alcoholism as being yes or no, on or off, think of it as a scale
from most likely to become an alcoholic to least likely to become an
alcoholic.

I like Matt Ridley's _Genome_ on the subject.

--Lia

Hark! I heard Gary > say:
> j*ni wrote:
> > Hark! I heard (PENMART01) say:
> > > Sylvia writes:

> > > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths

> > > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
> > > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
> > > direction.

> > Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
> > U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
> > disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
> > and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
> > route we took (I-80, IIRC)...

> Be glad you don't have to deal with !@#$%^& tumble weeds! They are a real pain
> (literally)! I have to deal with them all the time, and I have learned to hate
> them.

Really? What's the problem? Remember, I've never actually seen one...


--
j*ni p. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

In article >, Gary > wrote:

> j*ni wrote:


> > and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
> > route we took (I-80, IIRC)...


> Be glad you don't have to deal with !@#$%^& tumble weeds! They are a real pain
> (literally)! I have to deal with them all the time, and I have learned to hate
> them.


I hear you! I feel the same way about snow. I have to laugh (or cringe)
when people talk about making a special trip just to see snow. I saw
enough snow in my first twenty years to last me the rest of my life. If I
never see snow again in person, I'll be perfectly happy. I live in sunny
California now, and it has snowed at my house exactly once in the 25 years
I've lived there.

--
Dan Abel
Sonoma State University
AIS

>>I can't deny that. But, I can't help but recall a >>coffee shortage in
America some decades >>ago, too, and how so many otherwise >>respectable
business people were >>experiencing "withdrawals" because of the
>>coffee shortage. I don't think it can all be put >>down to addictive
personalities.
>>Gary .
..
You can't ascribe stuff to "addictive personality" because it prolly
doesn't exist. I live 25 minutes on the Beltway from NIH, and they
haven't preached tht trash for 30 years. With respect to coffee,
clearly that is addictive to persons with certain profiles. The
withdrawal headache, the mild nausea due to withdrawal, the cravings,
the desparate need to re-dose.......Sounds like a junkie to me. And, it
sounds like me if my dosing schedule is messed with.
Addict as I have been since age 5 or 6, I have never been hassled by a
cop for being caffienate in public. No judge has ordered me into the
Maxwell House for the Caffeine dependent.

~~~Gina~~~

>j*ni wrote:
>
>> (PENMART01) said:
>> > Sylvia writes:
>>
>> > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
>>
>> > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
>> > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
>> > direction.
>>
>> Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
>> U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
>> disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
>> and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
>> route we took (I-80, IIRC)...

I don't think there are any tumbleweeds in Wyoming, try Texas.

Wyoming is a huge state, a long way across... can drive all day and still not
be into the next state, and Wyoming's population per sq mi. is the lowest in
the lower 48. Unless you're near Yellowstone or the Grand Tetons (even during
tourist season there aren't anything approching traffic jams except within the
parks) you're not going to encounter much traffic, if any, anywhere else except
for within the major cities. As low as it is Wyoming's bison population is
probably higher than for people... so maybe those were drunken bison hurtling
down the interstate....

Information Please Almanac:
Today's Question: http://aol1.infoplease.com/askeds/6-10-00askeds.html

What is the least populous state in the United States?

The Answer:

According to national census figures, Wyoming is the least populous state in
the country with an estimated 479,743 residents spread out over more than
97,000 square miles.
---


---= BOYCOTT FRENCH--GERMAN (belgium) =---
---= Move UNITED NATIONS To Paris =---
Sheldon
````````````
"Life would be devoid of all meaning were it without tribulation."

On 01 Oct 2003 21:18:32 GMT, (PENMART01) wrote:

>>j*ni wrote:
>>
>>> (PENMART01) said:
>>> > Sylvia writes:
>>>
>>> > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
>>>
>>> > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
>>> > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
>>> > direction.
>>>
>>> Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
>>> U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
>>> disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
>>> and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
>>> route we took (I-80, IIRC)...
>
>I don't think there are any tumbleweeds in Wyoming, try Texas.
>

>Sheldon

There is tumble weed in parts of Montana, Interior of BC, Southern
Alberta and in Saskatchewan. So maybe Wyoming is "blessed" also.
Some of it gets pretty big around and can move right along when there
is a good wind up.

Harry

"Harry Demidavicius" > wrote in message
...
: On 01 Oct 2003 21:18:32 GMT, (PENMART01)
wrote:
:
: >>j*ni wrote:
: >>
: >>> (PENMART01) said:
: >>> > Sylvia writes:
: >>>
: >>> > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
: >>>
: >>> > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a
boulder... I've
: >>> > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another
car in either
: >>> > direction.
: >>>
: >>> Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across
the
: >>> U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was
rather
: >>> disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or
houses
: >>> and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was
the
: >>> route we took (I-80, IIRC)...
: >
: >I don't think there are any tumbleweeds in Wyoming, try Texas.
: >
:
: >Sheldon
:
: There is tumble weed in parts of Montana, Interior of BC,
Southern
: Alberta and in Saskatchewan. So maybe Wyoming is "blessed"
also.
: Some of it gets pretty big around and can move right along when
there
: is a good wind up.
:
: Harry
: ==========

Well if not having tumbleweeds makes WY "blessed"... it's
probably it's ONLY blessing. Ewwww, too many memories of driving
through blizzards and/or wind storms.

No, that's untrue, I do have good memories of the 2 Little
America Truck/Rest stops. Great food and friendly workers there.
Beyond that though, nahhhhhhh.

As far as tumbleweeds go, I have one. I rescued it when I was
driving through Texas. I wasn't too far from both the Mexico and
the New Mexico borders. I used to keep it in a corner in one of
the guest rooms... looked neat just "sitting" there.

Cyndi
<Remove a "b" to reply>

Hark! I heard "Rick & Cyndi" > say:

<big snip>

> No, that's untrue, I do have good memories of the 2 Little
> America Truck/Rest stops. Great food and friendly workers there.

LOL! I remember Little America -- we saw roadside signs for miles
about that place for over 100 miles before we got there. I have to
say, we weren't terribly impressed, but I think that's because we
kept seeing those damn signs and got all worked up. Hey, it can
get pretty boring driving across country with a time limit, a
crappy car, and all of your belongings in a U-Haul trailer.
Thanks goodness I'll never have to do *that* again.

> Beyond that though, nahhhhhhh.
>
> As far as tumbleweeds go, I have one. I rescued it when I was
> driving through Texas. I wasn't too far from both the Mexico and
> the New Mexico borders. I used to keep it in a corner in one of
> the guest rooms... looked neat just "sitting" there.

Hmm, I guess Sheldon is right, I need to go to Texas to get my
tumblin' tumbleweed... :-)


--
j*ni p. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

Hark! I heard (j*ni p.) say:

> we saw roadside signs for miles about that place for over 100 miles

Whoops! Ah well, nothing like the reduncency of reduncency...



--
j*ni p. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

Julia Altshuler wrote:

> I've been trying to stay out of this and now find that I can't resist.
> I'm not answering Gary specifically, more putting my two cents in for
> the whole thread.
>
> What makes an alcoholic is one of the most typical in the whole
> nature/nurture debate. It is tricky because there's no single answer.
> For every example, there's a counter example.
>
> When we first learn about genetics, we usually get eye color as an
> example. Eyes are blue or brown. (Green, gray, and hazel are all
> considered, from a genetic standpoint, to be blue. Brown, dark brown,
> and almost black are all considered, from a standpoint, to be brown.)
> Environmental factors will have nothing to do with it. That includes
> diet, early childhood trauma, exposure to sunlight. You name it, it has
> nothing to do with it.
>
> With alcoholism, it isn't like that. The best scientists at the moment
> are now saying that genetics can give a person a predisposition to
> alcoholism, and genetics can give a person a predispostion not to over
> drink, but the circumstances of the way a person is brought up has a lot
> to do with it too.
>
> Brothers and sisters in the same family might have the same genetic
> predisposition towards drinking. One, due to life experiences, might
> end up an alcoholic. The other might not.
>
> Brothers and sisters in the same family might have different genetic
> predispositions towards drinking. The same differences in genetics that
> cause them to look different can cause them to have differences in the
> way their bodies react to alcohol.
>
> There is also the matter of degree. Instead of thinking of the genes
> for alcoholism as being yes or no, on or off, think of it as a scale
> from most likely to become an alcoholic to least likely to become an
> alcoholic.
>
> I like Matt Ridley's _Genome_ on the subject.
>
> --Lia

I can accept that genetics may play a part in an "addictive" personality
(shouldn't that be "addictable"?), but I can't accept that a child's genes
were "changed" to match a parent's drinking habits.

Gary




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"j*ni p." wrote:

> Hark! I heard Gary > say:
> > j*ni wrote:
> > > Hark! I heard (PENMART01) say:
> > > > Sylvia writes:
>
> > > > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
>
> > > > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
> > > > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
> > > > direction.
>
> > > Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
> > > U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
> > > disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
> > > and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
> > > route we took (I-80, IIRC)...
>
> > Be glad you don't have to deal with !@#$%^& tumble weeds! They are a real pain
> > (literally)! I have to deal with them all the time, and I have learned to hate
> > them.
>
> Really? What's the problem? Remember, I've never actually seen one...
>
> --
> j*ni p. ~ mom, gamer, novice cook ~
> ...fish heads, fish heads, eat them up, yum!

They are prickly and you must handle them carefully or wear gloves. Since they are
so "loose knit", it's hard to burn them; they go up in a flash but don't leave any
coals to keep the fire going. They get firmly lodged (with lots of wind, which we
have here, too) under anything they can, even places you wouldn't think they could
(cars, mobile homes, etc.). Horses won't eat them, even when they are still green.
Trying to use a weed eater on them is almost impossible; they are so tough that they
use up line faster than they are destroyed. They clog up farm fences, too. They are
just a major nuisance.

But, this past summer, I found a novel way to deal with them. It was part of my job
to round them up and put them into the dumpster, so, I make a long "stringer" (like
for fish), with a long spike on one end and a piece of wood tied across the other
end of a rope. I would run it through them and make a giant "string of pearls", then
drag it into our large dumpster, untie the piece of wood, then pull the rope out.

BTW, tumble weeds tumble in order to spread their seeds.

Gary




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Dan Abel wrote:

> In article >, Gary > wrote:
>
> > j*ni wrote:
>
> > > and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
> > > route we took (I-80, IIRC)...
>
> > Be glad you don't have to deal with !@#$%^& tumble weeds! They are a real pain
> > (literally)! I have to deal with them all the time, and I have learned to hate
> > them.
>
> I hear you! I feel the same way about snow. I have to laugh (or cringe)
> when people talk about making a special trip just to see snow. I saw
> enough snow in my first twenty years to last me the rest of my life. If I
> never see snow again in person, I'll be perfectly happy. I live in sunny
> California now, and it has snowed at my house exactly once in the 25 years
> I've lived there.
>
> --
> Dan Abel
> Sonoma State University
> AIS
>

Yep. This will be my second winter in Wyoming, and last year's 29 year record
blizzard was enough for me! And, they say it'll be a bad winter this year, too!
*sigh* I thought last year was bad! God only knows what's in store if it is a bad
winter. I wana move back south already!

Gary




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Gina * wrote:

> >>I can't deny that. But, I can't help but recall a >>coffee shortage in
> America some decades >>ago, too, and how so many otherwise >>respectable
> business people were >>experiencing "withdrawals" because of the
> >>coffee shortage. I don't think it can all be put >>down to addictive
> personalities.
> >>Gary .
> .
> You can't ascribe stuff to "addictive personality" because it prolly
> doesn't exist. I live 25 minutes on the Beltway from NIH, and they
> haven't preached tht trash for 30 years. With respect to coffee,
> clearly that is addictive to persons with certain profiles. The
> withdrawal headache, the mild nausea due to withdrawal, the cravings,
> the desparate need to re-dose.......Sounds like a junkie to me. And, it
> sounds like me if my dosing schedule is messed with.
> Addict as I have been since age 5 or 6, I have never been hassled by a
> cop for being caffienate in public. No judge has ordered me into the
> Maxwell House for the Caffeine dependent.
>
> ~~~Gina~~~

No, but I remember parodies done about the lack of coffee and how it was
effecting corporate America! )

BTW, anyone ever tried "JOLT Cola"?

Gary




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PENMART01 wrote:

> >j*ni wrote:
> >
> >> (PENMART01) said:
> >> > Sylvia writes:
> >>
> >> > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
> >>
> >> > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
> >> > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
> >> > direction.
> >>
> >> Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
> >> U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
> >> disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
> >> and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
> >> route we took (I-80, IIRC)...
>
> I don't think there are any tumbleweeds in Wyoming, try Texas.

Bull corn! I have spent most of my life in Texas, and never even saw a tumbleweed
until I moved to Arizona. But, they are all over Cheyenne, Wyoming, and I can
verify that. Maybe you are not quite sure what a tumbleweed is.

Gary



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Harry Demidavicius wrote:

> On 01 Oct 2003 21:18:32 GMT, (PENMART01) wrote:
>
> >>j*ni wrote:
> >>
> >>> (PENMART01) said:
> >>> > Sylvia writes:
> >>>
> >>> > >Wyoming has a horrible problem with drunk driving deaths
> >>>
> >>> > Well they must be running off the road into a ditch or a boulder... I've
> >>> > driven across Wyoming many a time and never saw another car in either
> >>> > direction.
> >>>
> >>> Heh! Sheldon, you reminded me of my one driving trip across the
> >>> U.S. (from Central PA to Western WA), back in 1989. I was rather
> >>> disappointed with Wyoming -- we saw almost no cars or houses
> >>> and I didn't get to see a tumblin' tumbleweed. Maybe it was the
> >>> route we took (I-80, IIRC)...
> >
> >I don't think there are any tumbleweeds in Wyoming, try Texas.
> >
>
> >Sheldon
>
> There is tumble weed in parts of Montana, Interior of BC, Southern
> Alberta and in Saskatchewan. So maybe Wyoming is "blessed" also.
> Some of it gets pretty big around and can move right along when there
> is a good wind up.
>
> Harry

Yes, I encountered one that was over 3' across! If you hit one of those going down
the road, and it gets lodged under your car, you WILL be stopping soon to get it
out.

Gary




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Rick & Cyndi wrote:

> : There is tumble weed in parts of Montana, Interior of BC,
> Southern
> : Alberta and in Saskatchewan. So maybe Wyoming is "blessed"
> also.
> : Some of it gets pretty big around and can move right along when
> there
> : is a good wind up.
> :
> : Harry
> : ==========
>
> Well if not having tumbleweeds makes WY "blessed"... it's
> probably it's ONLY blessing. Ewwww, too many memories of driving
> through blizzards and/or wind storms.

Yes, the wind here gets fierce!!! And, studies have shown that people
commit suicide (here) much more often when the wind is up. I can't
figure this out, but people swear it's true. I hate the wind, but I
don't think I'm gonna off myself because of it!

Once it was so windy, that I had to "walk" to work backwards! (Or get my
face and glasses sand blasted). I could hardly stand (that evening, they
reported gusts to 88 mph near here).

> No, that's untrue, I do have good memories of the 2 Little
> America Truck/Rest stops. Great food and friendly workers there.
> Beyond that though, nahhhhhhh.

Having lived here just over a year now, I have nothing good to say about
Wyoming. It is a dead-end, poverty state. They have no future because
they live in the past - they live in the past because they have no
future. As soon as I can raise enough money, I'm heading back to a
civilized state.

> As far as tumbleweeds go, I have one. I rescued it when I was
> driving through Texas. I wasn't too far from both the Mexico and
> the New Mexico borders. I used to keep it in a corner in one of
> the guest rooms... looked neat just "sitting" there.

*hehe* Paint it, give it a name and decorate it with Christmas lights!
Maybe I could capitalize on them by selling them to states that don't
have them.

Gary




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"Gary" < Cyndi wrote:

<snip>
:
: > As far as tumbleweeds go, I have one. I rescued it when I
was
: > driving through Texas. I wasn't too far from both the Mexico
and
: > the New Mexico borders. I used to keep it in a corner in one
of
: > the guest rooms... looked neat just "sitting" there.
:
: *hehe* Paint it, give it a name and decorate it with Christmas
lights!
: Maybe I could capitalize on them by selling them to states that
don't
: have them.
:
: Gary
: ==========

That's it Gary!! *That's* your ticket out of there!!

Collect, decorate and sell them! You'd probably make a mint!
Especially, if you had the right website and could have your site
linked on some other sites... Just think, postage wouldn't kill
anyone because the buggers are so light weight... By George
(Gary), I think you've got it!

--
Cyndi
<Remove a "b" to reply>

Rick & Cyndi wrote:

> "Gary" < Cyndi wrote:
>
> <snip>
> :
> : > As far as tumbleweeds go, I have one. I rescued it when I
> was
> : > driving through Texas. I wasn't too far from both the Mexico
> and
> : > the New Mexico borders. I used to keep it in a corner in one
> of
> : > the guest rooms... looked neat just "sitting" there.
> :
> : *hehe* Paint it, give it a name and decorate it with Christmas
> lights!
> : Maybe I could capitalize on them by selling them to states that
> don't
> : have them.
> :
> : Gary
> : ==========
>
> That's it Gary!! *That's* your ticket out of there!!
>
> Collect, decorate and sell them! You'd probably make a mint!
> Especially, if you had the right website and could have your site
> linked on some other sites... Just think, postage wouldn't kill
> anyone because the buggers are so light weight... By George
> (Gary), I think you've got it!
>
> --
> Cyndi
> <Remove a "b" to reply>

Well, now you have me half way thinking about it. What an ironic way to
get out of a state that I hate, huh? )

Gary




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