I live in Argentina, where normal cheap ovens are gas ovens without a
thermostat. A knob allows me to adjust the size of the flame and that's
it. I know this is almost prehistoric by first world standards, but
it's normal here.

Since I often pull recipes from the net or foreign cook books (Betty
Crocker's and such) that give oven temperatures, I bought an oven
thermometer.

My experiences with the thermometer were not good...

Let's say the recipe called for a temperature of 180 C (Moderate heat).
I had to set the oven to the lowest setting for the temperate to stay
around this number (according to the thermometer). At first I assumed
my oven had a very high gas output, and the lowest setting was actually
moderate... but cooking took more than twice the time in the book.

When I repeated the recipe, I then set the flame to the middle setting.
It came out perfect, and in the exact time listed... throught the
cooking the thermometer marked between 210 C and 230 C.

This lead me to believe my thermometer was off... so some months later
I bought a new one (don't know about the first one, which is a
different brand, but this one is German made... both look the same as
oven thermometers sold in Amazon and other on-line vendors).

The experience with the new thermometer was the same... so I did a bit
of testing: I put both thermometers in the oven, heated it, and
compared: they both marked the same temperature (with no more than a
5-10 degree variation at some times). I moved one of the thermometers
around the oven, testing different locations (standing in the middle,
hanging from the front, etc.) and they both kept marking the same
temperature. So know I think my thermometers are working just fine.

Does anybody know what's going on here? Are gas oven temperatures
somehow different than electric oven temperatures? Should I be
adjusting by some factor?

On 25 Jun 2006 13:37:57 -0700, wrote:

>I live in Argentina, where normal cheap ovens are gas ovens without a
>thermostat. A knob allows me to adjust the size of the flame and that's
>it. I know this is almost prehistoric by first world standards, but
>it's normal here.
>
>Since I often pull recipes from the net or foreign cook books (Betty
>Crocker's and such) that give oven temperatures, I bought an oven
>thermometer.
>
>My experiences with the thermometer were not good...
>
>Let's say the recipe called for a temperature of 180 C (Moderate heat).
>I had to set the oven to the lowest setting for the temperate to stay
>around this number (according to the thermometer). At first I assumed
>my oven had a very high gas output, and the lowest setting was actually
>moderate... but cooking took more than twice the time in the book.
>
>When I repeated the recipe, I then set the flame to the middle setting.
>It came out perfect, and in the exact time listed... throught the
>cooking the thermometer marked between 210 C and 230 C.
>
>This lead me to believe my thermometer was off... so some months later
>I bought a new one (don't know about the first one, which is a
>different brand, but this one is German made... both look the same as
>oven thermometers sold in Amazon and other on-line vendors).
>
>The experience with the new thermometer was the same... so I did a bit
>of testing: I put both thermometers in the oven, heated it, and
>compared: they both marked the same temperature (with no more than a
>5-10 degree variation at some times). I moved one of the thermometers
>around the oven, testing different locations (standing in the middle,
>hanging from the front, etc.) and they both kept marking the same
>temperature. So know I think my thermometers are working just fine.
>
>Does anybody know what's going on here? Are gas oven temperatures
>somehow different than electric oven temperatures? Should I be
>adjusting by some factor?
>
two things-
1. what are you cooking and is there an altitude issue? Is there a
difference when you cook different recipes?
2. maybe your oven doesn't maintain the temperature at a constant
level. Perhaps opening the door causes swings in temperature. From
your moving the thermometer around experiment, it doesn't seem as
though you have hot spots, etc.

In the absence of being able to resolve your question, let experience
be your guide. Keep the thermometers but when the recipe calls for
180, set the oven at 210. Make similar adjustments for other
temperatures.

It seems odd that the lowest temperature on the oven would be 180C
(356F) by the thermometer. Even though the ovens are cheap, is there
a repair service that can calibrate them properly?

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

> Is it possible you're mixing up American and
> metric units? In 1999, NASA lost a spacecraft
> because of a similar error.
>
> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...56/ai_57155808

No, my books list both centigrades and farenheit degrees, and I'm using
centigrades which is what my thermometer uses. 180 C would be 350 F if
I remember correctly, so the chance for mistake in this aspect is slim.

> what are you cooking and is there an altitude issue?
> Is there a difference when you cook different recipes?

No, Buenos Aires is located at sea level... so altitude shouldn't be an
issue.

> maybe your oven doesn't maintain the temperature at a constant
> level. Perhaps opening the door causes swings in temperature.
> From your moving the thermometer around experiment, it doesn't
> seem as though you have hot spots, etc.

Well... it sure doesn't mantain the temperature at a constant level.
Moderate setting starts at 210 C (according to the thermometer) but
then raises with time up to 230. This increase is quite slow. My oven
door has a glass window, so I can check the thermometer or the food
without opening the door... As far as I can tell opening the door for a
couple of seconds doesn't lower the temperature noticeably, but keeping
it open for 15-30 seconds can easily lower it as much as 30 degrees.

> In the absence of being able to resolve your question, let experience
> be your guide. Keep the thermometers but when the recipe calls for
> 180, set the oven at 210. Make similar adjustments for other
> temperatures.

This is all I can do for now... but I'd really love to be able to
exactly set the temperature to what the recipe calls for. Specially for
the most sensitive recipes... since so far I've been baking cakes,
cookies, scons and other stuff that can cope with deviations in the
temperature.

wrote on 25 Jun 2006 in rec.food.cooking

> This is all I can do for now... but I'd really love to be able to
> exactly set the temperature to what the recipe calls for. Specially for
> the most sensitive recipes... since so far I've been baking cakes,
> cookies, scons and other stuff that can cope with deviations in the
> temperature.
>

So the problem doesn't appear to be in the oven or the altitude....perhaps
it is in the baking pans...or in the cookbooks. Perhaps these are
translations to spainish cookbooks where the translator didn't care that
much for exactness? Perhaps you are using thicker than expected bakeware?

Post one of the recipes that should give us something to go on...and tell
us about your baking pans.

--
-Alan

The recipes are not in translated books. I have an american standard
edition of Betty Crocker's Cookbook and an Australian "Vegetarian
Coobook" from Konemann among others. One of the latest tests was with a
recipe for scons (pretty much standard), which called for moderate
oven, and the other was with Betty Crocker's Chocolate Chip Cookies. In
both cases the recipe called for moderate heat, and the right cooking
time was achieved by setting the flame to a middle setting... with the
thermometer at about 210-230 C. Having the thermometer mark 180 C meant
setting the flame to it's lowest power... and not taking too long, or
else the oven heated beyond this level.

I also recall having this problem with muffins and a completely
standard pizza recipe. (both of which took 2 to 3 times longer to cook
than the recipe said when setting the temperature according to the
thermometer).

In the case of the scons and the chocolate chip cookies I'm using a
standard alluminium baking tin. For the muffins I used a muffin tin
(with twelve sockets), and for the pizza I used an alluminium pizza
tray.

Mr Libido Incognito wrote:
> wrote on 25 Jun 2006 in rec.food.cooking
>
> > This is all I can do for now... but I'd really love to be able to
> > exactly set the temperature to what the recipe calls for. Specially for
> > the most sensitive recipes... since so far I've been baking cakes,
> > cookies, scons and other stuff that can cope with deviations in the
> > temperature.
> >
>
> So the problem doesn't appear to be in the oven or the altitude....perhaps
> it is in the baking pans...or in the cookbooks. Perhaps these are
> translations to spainish cookbooks where the translator didn't care that
> much for exactness? Perhaps you are using thicker than expected bakeware?
>
> Post one of the recipes that should give us something to go on...and tell
> us about your baking pans.
>
> --
> -Alan

Mark Thorson > wrote:

wrote:
>>
>> Does anybody know what's going on here? Are gas oven
>> temperatures somehow different than electric oven
>> temperatures? Should I be adjusting by some factor?
>
>Is it possible you're mixing up American and
>metric units? In 1999, NASA lost a spacecraft
>because of a similar error.
>
>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...56/ai_57155808

No, there's an urban legend that NASA lost a spacecraft because of
that - an urban legend so widely accepted that it has been repeated in
the major media.

D.
--
Touch-twice life. Eat. Drink. Laugh.

-Resolved: To be more temperate in my postings.
Oct 5th, 2004 JDL

Are you at a high altitude by chance...?

A while back I was searching for some info for a European friend in an
Australian published Cookbook and I found a"useful information page" and
one topic was Oven Temps. It gave oven temps for both gas and electric,
but only when the temp hits the mod hot level does it list the two; i.e.190
(Gas)-210 (elec).

The proviso listed is that the flame in gas generates a drier heat which
cooks faster than a moister heat of an electric even if the temp setting is
the same. However, I recall reading somewhere that the burning of gas in
an enclosed area like an oven produces a moister heat than electric which is
why Bread is better baked in an electric oven. I will do some digging to
verify that but if someone already knows the answer perhaps they will share.
Meantime here is the chart, hope it helps you

very slow 120C , 250 f, gasmark 1/2
slow 150C, 300f, gasmark 2
mod slow 160C, 325f, gasmark 3
moderate 180C , 350f, gasmark 4
Mod Hot 190(G)- 210(e) C, 375-415f, gasmark 5
Hot 200 (g)-240(e)C, 400-475f, gasmark 6
very Hot 230(g)-260(e) C, 450-525f, gasmark 8

"A knob allows me to adjust the size of the flame and that's it. I know
this is almost prehistoric by first world standards, but it's normal here."

just curious. do you have gasmarks like the Europeans do?


> wrote in message
ps.com...
>I live in Argentina, where normal cheap ovens are gas ovens without a
> thermostat. >
> Since I often pull recipes from the net or foreign cook books (Betty
> Crocker's and such) that give oven temperatures, I bought an oven
> thermometer.
>
> My experiences with the thermometer were not good...
>
> Let's say the recipe called for a temperature of 180 C (Moderate heat).
> I had to set the oven to the lowest setting for the temperate to stay
> around this number (according to the thermometer). At first I assumed
> my oven had a very high gas output, and the lowest setting was actually
> moderate... but cooking took more than twice the time in the book.
>
> When I repeated the recipe, I then set the flame to the middle setting.
> It came out perfect, and in the exact time listed... throught the
> cooking the thermometer marked between 210 C and 230 C.
>
> This lead me to believe my thermometer was off... so some months later
> I bought a new one (don't know about the first one, which is a
> different brand, but this one is German made... both look the same as
> oven thermometers sold in Amazon and other on-line vendors).
>
> The experience with the new thermometer was the same... so I did a bit
> of testing: I put both thermometers in the oven, heated it, and
> compared: they both marked the same temperature (with no more than a
> 5-10 degree variation at some times). I moved one of the thermometers
> around the oven, testing different locations (standing in the middle,
> hanging from the front, etc.) and they both kept marking the same
> temperature. So know I think my thermometers are working just fine.
>
> Does anybody know what's going on here? Are gas oven temperatures
> somehow different than electric oven temperatures? Should I be
> adjusting by some factor?
>

wrote:
>> Is it possible you're mixing up American and
>> metric units? In 1999, NASA lost a spacecraft
>> because of a similar error.
>>
>> http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...56/ai_57155808
>
> No, my books list both centigrades and farenheit degrees, and I'm
> using centigrades which is what my thermometer uses. 180 C would be
> 350 F if I remember correctly, so the chance for mistake in this
> aspect is slim.
>
>> what are you cooking and is there an altitude issue?
>> Is there a difference when you cook different recipes?
>
> No, Buenos Aires is located at sea level... so altitude shouldn't be
> an issue.
>
>> maybe your oven doesn't maintain the temperature at a constant
>> level. Perhaps opening the door causes swings in temperature.
>> From your moving the thermometer around experiment, it doesn't
>> seem as though you have hot spots, etc.
>
> Well... it sure doesn't mantain the temperature at a constant level.
> Moderate setting starts at 210 C (according to the thermometer) but
> then raises with time up to 230. This increase is quite slow. My oven
> door has a glass window, so I can check the thermometer or the food
> without opening the door... As far as I can tell opening the door for
> a couple of seconds doesn't lower the temperature noticeably, but
> keeping it open for 15-30 seconds can easily lower it as much as 30
> degrees.
>
>> In the absence of being able to resolve your question, let experience
>> be your guide. Keep the thermometers but when the recipe calls for
>> 180, set the oven at 210. Make similar adjustments for other
>> temperatures.
>
> This is all I can do for now... but I'd really love to be able to
> exactly set the temperature to what the recipe calls for. Specially
> for the most sensitive recipes... since so far I've been baking cakes,
> cookies, scons and other stuff that can cope with deviations in the
> temperature.

WIthout a built-in thermostat, you are going to have to do what the
thermostat would do automatically: that is, adjust the flame up and down
over the cooking time to achieve a more-or-less steady temperature. Sounds
like a royal pain to me.

One thing you might do is start by adjusting the temperature to about 25
degrees F *above* the temperature you want before placing the food in the
oven. Then, when you've put the food in the oven, turn the flame down
slightly. That should result in a starting temperature about where you want
it. When the food has warmed up, you'll probably have to lower the flame
slightly more, or the oven will just keep getting hotter and hotter. Argh.
And chance of obtaining an oven with a thermostat? Hos about a countertop
convection oven?

Is the oven vent open/unblocked?


> wrote in message
ps.com...
> I live in Argentina, where normal cheap ovens are gas ovens without a
> thermostat. A knob allows me to adjust the size of the flame and that's
> it. I know this is almost prehistoric by first world standards, but
> it's normal here.
>
> Since I often pull recipes from the net or foreign cook books (Betty
> Crocker's and such) that give oven temperatures, I bought an oven
> thermometer.
>
> My experiences with the thermometer were not good...
>
> Let's say the recipe called for a temperature of 180 C (Moderate heat).
> I had to set the oven to the lowest setting for the temperate to stay
> around this number (according to the thermometer). At first I assumed
> my oven had a very high gas output, and the lowest setting was actually
> moderate... but cooking took more than twice the time in the book.
>
> When I repeated the recipe, I then set the flame to the middle setting.
> It came out perfect, and in the exact time listed... throught the
> cooking the thermometer marked between 210 C and 230 C.
>
> This lead me to believe my thermometer was off... so some months later
> I bought a new one (don't know about the first one, which is a
> different brand, but this one is German made... both look the same as
> oven thermometers sold in Amazon and other on-line vendors).
>
> The experience with the new thermometer was the same... so I did a bit
> of testing: I put both thermometers in the oven, heated it, and
> compared: they both marked the same temperature (with no more than a
> 5-10 degree variation at some times). I moved one of the thermometers
> around the oven, testing different locations (standing in the middle,
> hanging from the front, etc.) and they both kept marking the same
> temperature. So know I think my thermometers are working just fine.
>
> Does anybody know what's going on here? Are gas oven temperatures
> somehow different than electric oven temperatures? Should I be
> adjusting by some factor?
>

Gunner wrote:
> The proviso listed is that the flame in gas generates a drier heat which
> cooks faster than a moister heat of an electric even if the temp setting is
> the same.

The table you give shows the opposite to my experience... I have to
cook at higher temperatures than the ones listed in electric ovens.
Still, knowing that there might be a difference between the gas and the
electric ovens running at the same temperatures fills me with hope :-)

On the subject of gasmarks, my oven doesn't have any. I mean... it has,
but they're not numbered and they don't conform to any standard
(standards are, AFAIK, 8 or 10 gasmarks... mine has like 14 dots around
the knob). It wouldn't be of much use, since there's no thermostat, I
guess...

To answer other questions:

- I tried playing thermostat, and checking the temperature constantly
while slightly adjusting the flame. But to get a 180 C temperature
(moderate) eventually meant shutting down the flame entirely, since
even at the lowest setting it measured more than that.

- My oven doesn't have any vents... it's not a convection oven or
anything.

On 27 Jun 2006 06:13:18 -0700, wrote:

>- My oven doesn't have any vents... it's not a convection oven or
>anything.
>
Look harder :> There will be a vent somewhe in the back for
example). (Although I can't remember why it's germane to this
discussion).

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Gunner wrote:
> > The proviso listed is that the flame in gas generates a drier heat which
> > cooks faster than a moister heat of an electric even if the temp setting
is
> > the same.
>
> The table you give shows the opposite to my experience... I have to
> cook at higher temperatures than the ones listed in electric ovens.
> Still, knowing that there might be a difference between the gas and the
> electric ovens running at the same temperatures fills me with hope :-)
>
> On the subject of gasmarks, my oven doesn't have any. I mean... it has,
> but they're not numbered and they don't conform to any standard
> (standards are, AFAIK, 8 or 10 gasmarks... mine has like 14 dots around
> the knob). It wouldn't be of much use, since there's no thermostat, I
> guess...
>
> To answer other questions:
>
> - I tried playing thermostat, and checking the temperature constantly
> while slightly adjusting the flame. But to get a 180 C temperature
> (moderate) eventually meant shutting down the flame entirely, since
> even at the lowest setting it measured more than that.
>
> - My oven doesn't have any vents... it's not a convection oven or
> anything.

all ovens have vents - especially gas ovens -

1) some ovens used one of the back burners, other have a slot in the rear of
the oven - other wise you would steam your foopd, not bake it.

2) If you use a natural gas oven with propane, they will run very hot.

3) However, the thermostat (long rod along oven wall - in clips and not
touching wall) should regulate the flame and keep the oven from overheating.

It is usually a long thin chamber in the oven connected to a very small
diameter copper tube, all filled with air - the air expands in the tube as
the tmep goes up and pushes on a diaphragm that is in the gas valve.

A tiny leak or kink -- and there is poor or no regulation.

fwiw

fwiw

>

hob wrote:

> all ovens have vents - especially gas ovens -
>
> 1) some ovens used one of the back burners, other have a slot in the rear of
> the oven - other wise you would steam your foopd, not bake it.
>
> 2) If you use a natural gas oven with propane, they will run very hot.
>
> 3) However, the thermostat (long rod along oven wall - in clips and not
> touching wall) should regulate the flame and keep the oven from overheating.
>
> It is usually a long thin chamber in the oven connected to a very small
> diameter copper tube, all filled with air - the air expands in the tube as
> the tmep goes up and pushes on a diaphragm that is in the gas valve.
>


But he said he had an oven that wasn't temperature regulated and only
flame intensity could be adjusted so it likely wouldn't have that. His
oven seems to be very similar to a typical outdoor gas grill where you
can only adjust the size of the flame.


> A tiny leak or kink -- and there is poor or no regulation.
>
> fwiw
>
> fwiw
>
>
>
>

: 2) If you use a natural gas oven with propane, they will run very hot.

Nope, they will run cool. LPG has less BTU output that NG, and NG runs at
a much lower pressure than LPG. So running on propane they will burn
inefficiently and fairly cool.

Now, if you reverse the situation and run an oven configured for propane
on Natural Gas, the oven will run very hot.

> wrote in message ...
> : 2) If you use a natural gas oven with propane, they will run very hot.
>
> Nope, they will run cool. LPG has less BTU output that NG, and NG runs at
> a much lower pressure than LPG. So running on propane they will burn
> inefficiently and fairly cool.
>
> Now, if you reverse the situation and run an oven configured for propane
> on Natural Gas, the oven will run very hot.

I'm not sure what the end result will be, however, Propane has 2500 BTU.SCF and Natural Gas is ~1000 BTU/SCF.

"Al Reid" > writes:
> I'm not sure what the end result will be, however, Propane has 2500
> BTU.SCF and Natural Gas is ~1000 BTU/SCF.

It varies, depending on the burner configuration and orifice and
regulator settings, but generally propane runs slightly hotter than
NG, due to the higher heating value, and if you have a setup that can
use the higher delivery pressure of LP (not common in ranges and oven,
but common in outdoor burners), then LP can generate a lot more heat,
but requires more air.

This also why you can plumb propane lines a lot smaller than NG lines
(if your codes allow it, sometimes they don't).

In the end, usually LP and NG in a home range or oven usually end up
performing almost identically. As an aside, note that most
hydrocarbon fuels (methane, propane, gasoline, diesel, kerosene, etc)
all have roughly the same energy content per mass, around 45 kJ/kg
lower heater value. Alcohols have a lower energy content, and
hydrogen has a higher content.

--
Richard W Kaszeta

http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

"Richard Kaszeta" > wrote in message ...
> "Al Reid" > writes:
> > I'm not sure what the end result will be, however, Propane has 2500
> > BTU.SCF and Natural Gas is ~1000 BTU/SCF.
>
> It varies, depending on the burner configuration and orifice and
> regulator settings, but generally propane runs slightly hotter than
> NG, due to the higher heating value, and if you have a setup that can
> use the higher delivery pressure of LP (not common in ranges and oven,
> but common in outdoor burners), then LP can generate a lot more heat,
> but requires more air.
>
> This also why you can plumb propane lines a lot smaller than NG lines
> (if your codes allow it, sometimes they don't).
>
> In the end, usually LP and NG in a home range or oven usually end up
> performing almost identically. As an aside, note that most
> hydrocarbon fuels (methane, propane, gasoline, diesel, kerosene, etc)
> all have roughly the same energy content per mass, around 45 kJ/kg
> lower heater value. Alcohols have a lower energy content, and
> hydrogen has a higher content.
>
> --
> Richard W Kaszeta
>
> http://www.kaszeta.org/rich

All that is correct. For the same heat input and supply pressure the orifices are smaller when using propane. Whether the flame
temperature will be higher of lower depends on the air supply and mixing rates. If there isn't enough air available, the propane
will burn rich, resulting in a lower flame temperature, CO and unburned hydrocarbons. Assuming that the gas (NG or propane or
whatever) is burned near a stoichiometric mixture, you will get about 100 btu/SCF or combustion air. So for the same air supply,
less propane needs to be supplied. I've worked for many years on industrial furnaces and other combustion systems, but have
absolutely no experience with residential ovens.

--
Al Reid

> wrote in message
...
> : 2) If you use a natural gas oven with propane, they will run very hot.
>
> Nope, they will run cool. LPG has less BTU output that NG, and NG runs at
> a much lower pressure than LPG. So running on propane they will burn
> inefficiently and fairly cool.

I understand that there are a couple of differences between LP and NG
appliances: orifice size, line size, and pressure (n.and maybe burner port
size (the holes around the ring wherte the gas comes out to burn)


1) LP has over twice as much energy per cu ft as NG.

2) If you have orifices sized to deliver 12,000 BTU for an oven when using
NG at a given temp and pressure, and you put LP gas through those same
orifices at that temperature and pressure, you will have maybe 25,000 BTU
delivered into the oven.

Thus if you feed a natural gas oven's orifices with propane, they will run
hot at the low end, where the minimum amount of gas allowed by the valve
provides more heat than the oven loses, and thuis the temperature balance is
struck by the minimum BTU fed and heat loss, rather than the amount of
energy let in by the valve and the heat loss (I hope that was explained
clearly).

The thermostat should still work in the higher temperature ranges.

3) There are also problems with using a LP rated gas valve with NG - LP
pressure runs around 11" water, and NG around 4" water - and because of
orifice characteristics and gas weight, it gets kind of messy when the
pressure changes.
(I also think the valves deteriorate if the wrong fuel is used in the
valve.)

Considering pressure (off the top of my head on this):
having LP running through a NG valve delivers less LP gas than an LP
valve would, BUT I believe that roughly the same amount of gas is delivered
as if it were NG and thus delivers about twice-plus the energy to the oven.

If you run NG through an LP valve and it enters the NG-sized orifice at
11", then the NG is coming in at a higher pressure, and it may limit in the
NG orifice.

If the NG enters an LP-sized orifice at higher pressure, I htink it will
would run about the same or cooler as LP.

fwiw


>
> Now, if you reverse the situation and run an oven configured for propane
> on Natural Gas, the oven will run very hot

>I live in Argentina, where normal cheap ovens are gas ovens without a
>thermostat. A knob allows me to adjust the size of the flame and that's
>it. I know this is almost prehistoric by first world standards, but
>it's normal here.

Everyone else seems to be working well on the real problem, so thought
I would be pedantic instead.

Old World
New World
Third World

Oh pshaw, on Sat 01 Jul 2006 04:08:43p, Sean Berger meant to say...

>>I live in Argentina, where normal cheap ovens are gas ovens without a
>>thermostat. A knob allows me to adjust the size of the flame and that's
>>it. I know this is almost prehistoric by first world standards, but
>>it's normal here.
>
> Everyone else seems to be working well on the real problem, so thought
> I would be pedantic instead.
>
> Old World
> New World
> Third World

My grandmother, who lived in rural Mississippi, cooked and baked on a wood-
fired stove without thermostat or even thermometer. Oven temps were
determined by how long you could keep your hand inside. :-) Her baked goods
were exceptional.

--
Wayne Boatwright @¿@¬
_____________________