Hello all...

My sincere apologies if this posting is off topic. It seems like it could
fit in.

I am working on moving into and renovating a new home...it's my first, and
I'm learning quite a lot. The new home has a GE natural gas stove with an
oven and four surface burners--my parents have an old electric Hotpoint
dual-oven and four surface element stove. I've cooked on the old electric
stove my whole life now and really like using it. So when I saw that the new
home came with a gas stove, I was unsure about how well it would work for
someone who has used an electric stove all his life.

Long story short, the gas stove seems to work reasonably well, at least as
far as the oven is concerned. However, the surface burners are another
story. I frequently cook things that involve a good rolling boil, and this
stove just can't do it with some cookware and has a difficult time with
other cookware. Copper bottom Revere Ware seems to work acceptably, if only
barely. I have some "Circulon" brand cookware that isn't even usable on this
stove if you need a boil.

The gas valve is as open as it can be, and seems to work fine...it's not
stuck or hard to move.

According to the plate under the cooktop, where the model and serial number
are, the oven is rated at 12,000 BTUs and the surface burners at 8,000 or so
BTUs. If nothing else, this certainly sounds like enough heat *could* be
available. It seems like that should blow the electric stove away, though I
have no ratings for it. (However, it should be said that this is clearly a
cheap gas stove. It's a 1998-era "made for GE by White Consolidated
Industries" unit that goes so far as to have a totally mechanical 'digital'
clock and timer. GE denies even having made it, as they say the model number
does not exist when I go looking for the owner's manual.)

What--if anything--am I doing wrong here? Am I expecting too much from this
stove? Do I need to adjust this stove or calibrate it somehow?

William

"William R. Walsh" m>
wrote in message
>
> According to the plate under the cooktop, where the model and serial
> number
> are, the oven is rated at 12,000 BTUs and the surface burners at 8,000 or
> so
> BTUs. If nothing else, this certainly sounds like enough heat *could* be
> available. It seems like that should blow the electric stove away, though
> I
> have no ratings for it. (However, it should be said that this is clearly a
> cheap gas stove.

It is a cheap, underpowered range. A decent stove will have burners of 12k
or more. Whirlpool, for instance, makes one with two 13.5k burners and two
smaller 8k. Even a cheap $349 Whirlpool has a 12k burner and will make a
big difference.

Shop carefully and you'll find a nice gas range that will suit your needs.

"William R. Walsh" m>
wrote in message news:WvRpg.59485$1i1.38180@attbi_s72...
> Hello all...
>
> My sincere apologies if this posting is off topic. It seems like it could
> fit in.
>
> I am working on moving into and renovating a new home...it's my first, and
> I'm learning quite a lot. The new home has a GE natural gas stove with an
> oven and four surface burners--my parents have an old electric Hotpoint
> dual-oven and four surface element stove. I've cooked on the old electric
> stove my whole life now and really like using it. So when I saw that the
> new
> home came with a gas stove, I was unsure about how well it would work for
> someone who has used an electric stove all his life.
>
> Long story short, the gas stove seems to work reasonably well, at least as
> far as the oven is concerned. However, the surface burners are another
> story. I frequently cook things that involve a good rolling boil, and this
> stove just can't do it with some cookware and has a difficult time with
> other cookware. Copper bottom Revere Ware seems to work acceptably, if
> only
> barely. I have some "Circulon" brand cookware that isn't even usable on
> this
> stove if you need a boil.
>
> The gas valve is as open as it can be, and seems to work fine...it's not
> stuck or hard to move.
>
> According to the plate under the cooktop, where the model and serial
> number
> are, the oven is rated at 12,000 BTUs and the surface burners at 8,000 or
> so
> BTUs. If nothing else, this certainly sounds like enough heat *could* be
> available. It seems like that should blow the electric stove away, though
> I
> have no ratings for it. (However, it should be said that this is clearly a
> cheap gas stove. It's a 1998-era "made for GE by White Consolidated
> Industries" unit that goes so far as to have a totally mechanical
> 'digital'
> clock and timer. GE denies even having made it, as they say the model
> number
> does not exist when I go looking for the owner's manual.)
>
> What--if anything--am I doing wrong here? Am I expecting too much from
> this
> stove? Do I need to adjust this stove or calibrate it somehow?
>
> William
>
I'm about to buy a gas cooktop oven and have the same concern, particularly
about the oven. I do know that the "hot" burner on the cooktop today can
heat to 14,000 BTU. That may be part of your problem. I have more concern
about the oven heating to 550F, the temp.that I bake pizza.
BTW, your post would be much more effective on alt.food.equipment.
Kent

pizza.

"William R. Walsh" m>
wrote:
> What--if anything--am I doing wrong here? Am I expecting too much from
> this
> stove? Do I need to adjust this stove or calibrate it somehow?

Maybe you're just not waiting long enough for it to come to a boil... you're
expecting too much. Gas stoves are notorious for taking a long time to bring
water to a boil compared to electric stoves. Even high powered residential
stoves can take a long time. 15 to 20 to 25 or more minutes is not out of
the ordinary.

The conversion factor for watts to Btus is about 3.4. So a 2,000 watt
electric element would generate 6,400 Btu and a 3,000 watt electric element
would generate 10,200 Btu. But the gas burner is far less efficient in
transfering the heat to the pot compared to an electric element. A lot of
the heat goes up and around the pot with gas compared to electric. My guess
is a 3,000 watt (or 10,200 Btu) electric element would boil water far faster
than a 15,000 Btu gas burner, so great is the difference.

On gas burners being adjusted properly, if the burner is "too lean", with
too much air getting in, they tend to be quite noisy (and maybe hard to
ignite). If the burner is "too rich", the flames are no longer all blue, but
have a lot of yellow or orange in them.

Regarding the age of your stove, I would think it is a lot older than 1998
if it has a mechanical digital clock. That almost sounds like late 1970s
vintage to me. I know I had a new GE electric stove in 1991, and it had a
blue (gas fluorescent?) digital clock. Alarm clocks with physical cards with
the numbers on them that flipped over were popular in the 1970s, so if
that's what this stove has, I'd expect it was from that era.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

On Sun, 02 Jul 2006 15:21:26 GMT, "William R. Walsh"
m> wrote:

>According to the plate under the cooktop, where the model and serial number
>are, the oven is rated at 12,000 BTUs and the surface burners at 8,000 or so
>BTUs. If nothing else, this certainly sounds like enough heat *could* be
>available. It seems like that should blow the electric stove away, though I
>have no ratings for it. (However, it should be said that this is clearly a
>cheap gas stove. It's a 1998-era "made for GE by White Consolidated
>Industries" unit that goes so far as to have a totally mechanical 'digital'
>clock and timer. GE denies even having made it, as they say the model number
>does not exist when I go looking for the owner's manual.)

Try calling White Consolidated Industries.

8000 BTU sounds kind of wimpy (the non-power burners on my stove are
9000) but you should be able to boil water depending on how much
water, the proper adjustments of the burner (see one of the other
posts in this thread, and the surrounding conditions that might cool
the pot faster than the burner can heat, eg. is your stove near an
open window? Do you have a powerful range hood? You might try
placing one of those folding aluminum spatter shields (not the mesh
ones to put on a frying pan) around the pot to keep the heat "safe"
from breezes).

folding spatter shield:
http://www.harrietcarter.com/Detail....4103_Froog le

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

William R. Walsh wrote:

>
> According to the plate under the cooktop, where the model and serial number
> are, the oven is rated at 12,000 BTUs and the surface burners at 8,000 or so
> BTUs. If nothing else, this certainly sounds like enough heat *could* be


Thats the problem, its a low end stove. Better ones will have two
burners with at least a 12,000 BTU rating.


> available. It seems like that should blow the electric stove away, though I
> have no ratings for it. (However, it should be said that this is clearly a
> cheap gas stove. It's a 1998-era "made for GE by White Consolidated
> Industries" unit that goes so far as to have a totally mechanical 'digital'
> clock and timer. GE denies even having made it, as they say the model number
> does not exist when I go looking for the owner's manual.)
>
> What--if anything--am I doing wrong here? Am I expecting too much from this
> stove? Do I need to adjust this stove or calibrate it somehow?
>
> William
>
>

Hi!

> I do know that the "hot" burner on the cooktop today can
> heat to 14,000 BTU. That may be part of your problem.

I did some looking at gas stoves for sale in appliance stores today. I saw a
few units with 14,000BTU burners. Most seemed to have anything between
10,000~12,000 BTU burners.

> I have more concern
> about the oven heating to 550F, the temp.that I bake pizza.

The oven in my stove seems to work fine. My only real complaint is the
"oven" light stays on all the time, so I have to sit around and listen for
the thermostat to "clunk" when it has reached temperature for preheating.

475 degrees (F) is as far as I've taken mine (outside of the cleaning cycle,
which seemed to work fine and made the kitchen get hellishly hot after
overwhelming the A/C...) and it worked OK there.

> BTW, your post would be much more effective on alt.food.equipment.
> Kent

Thanks for the pointer.

William

Hi!

> Maybe you're just not waiting long enough for it to come to a boil...
> you're expecting too much. Gas stoves are notorious for taking a
> long time to bring water to a boil compared to electric stoves. Even
> high powered residential stoves can take a long time. 15 to 20 to 25
> or more minutes is not out of the ordinary.

I gave up on the thing after 25 minutes. It heated the water to a point, and
just plateaued (sp?) after that according to my infrared thermometer. At
best, the water got to be around 190 degrees (F).

My parents electric Hotpoint range (http://greyghost.dyndns.org/stove.jpg,
640x480, 46KB) has no problem getting things up to a very good and rapidly
rolling boil in about 12~16 minutes. I'd love to find one of those stoves
somewhere, but I'll bet they are hard to come by.

> On gas burners being adjusted properly, if the burner is "too lean",
> with too much air getting in, they tend to be quite noisy (and maybe
> hard to ignite). If the burner is "too rich", the flames are no longer all
> blue, but have a lot of yellow or orange in them.

The burner ignites fairly easily, and the flame is a nice steady blue color,
with the odd yellow/orange tip. There's some soft hissing from the burner as
it runs, but nothing more than any other gas appliance would make.

Interestingly enough, the burner controls are not completely independent of
one another. If another burner is turned on, the flame drops in intensity
with the other burners.

Is there any kind of standardized procedure for adjusting burners?

> Regarding the age of your stove, I would think it is a lot older
> than 1998 if it has a mechanical digital clock.

The design of the thing is very reminiscent of a late-80s stove. But the
date under the cooktop is clear--February 1998. It must have been a *very*
cheap stove. On the plus side, being as the clock uses the 60Hz AC line
frequency as its reference, it is very accurate.

The numbers roll over on a cylinder.

Thanks for the information. The more I think about this, the more I think of
selling this stove to someone who can use it. Since I'm going to be gutting
and rewiring the house, I think I'll just take the gas line out and put a
stove plug in its place.

William

wff_ng_7 wrote:
> Gas stoves are notorious for taking a long time to bring
> water to a boil compared to electric stoves. Even high powered residential
> stoves can take a long time. 15 to 20 to 25 or more minutes is not out of
> the ordinary.
>

That's a bizarre generalization. I cooked (unwillingly) on an electric
stove for 4 years before I renovated my kitchen to include a gas stove.
My gas stove kicks ass...I can bring a 12 qt. kettle of water to boil
in under 10 minutes; my old 'lectric couldn't even raise steam in that
amount of time. I say go for the gas.

Sandy

William R. Walsh m> wrote:

> Interestingly enough, the burner controls are not completely
> independent of one another. If another burner is turned on,
> the flame drops in intensity with the other burners.

That does not sound right at all. Sounds to me like
possibly a problem with your gas pressure rather than
the stove. I'd call the gas company -- maybe the gizmo
that converts the high-pressure line to normal household
pressure is out of whack.

Steve

"William R. Walsh" m>
wrote in message


> Interestingly enough, the burner controls are not completely independent
> of
> one another. If another burner is turned on, the flame drops in intensity
> with the other burners.
>
> Is there any kind of standardized procedure for adjusting burners?

Something is wrong here. In all my years of using gas stoves, never did I
see one where the flame changes due to another burner lighting. You may
have a gas pressure problem, or a restriction in the piping.

Given the size of the burners, the stove is a cheapie, but it should still
not do that. If it is the regulator on the meter or piping to the stove, a
new model will not be any better. Get it check out. Often your gas company
will do it for free or low cost.

> wrote:
> That's a bizarre generalization. I cooked (unwillingly) on an electric
> stove for 4 years before I renovated my kitchen to include a gas stove.
> My gas stove kicks ass...I can bring a 12 qt. kettle of water to boil
> in under 10 minutes; my old 'lectric couldn't even raise steam in that
> amount of time. I say go for the gas.

I find that very hard to believe. Take a look at the following article:

http://www.departures.com/ad/ad_1103_cookranges.html

This article matches very closely the experiences I've had.

The only way I could see you getting the results you describe is to start
with hot water from the tap at 140 degrees F. Perhaps then you could reach a
boil in the time frame you mention. But it is highly recommended my most
health experts to use cold water from the tap, as hot water poses risks from
things such as lead and other metals leaching out of the hot water heater
due to long term storage at high temperatures. The above article I reference
does the testing with cold water starting at 60 degrees F. Even that is
optimistic depending on the climate and time of year. At my house in the mid
Atlantic USA, I've measured the cold tap water as low as 43 degrees F in mid
winter. With my 9,000 Btu gas stove burners and that temperature cold water,
it would take considerably longer than the longest time seen in the test of
21 minutes. And those tests are for a mere 6 quarts of water. Your 12 quarts
would take even longer (if it is the recommended cold water).

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

"William R. Walsh" m>
wrote:
> I gave up on the thing after 25 minutes. It heated the water to a point,
> and
> just plateaued (sp?) after that according to my infrared thermometer. At
> best, the water got to be around 190 degrees (F).

That probably wasn't long enough, depending how much water was in the pot
and what the starting temperature of the water was. Take a look at the
following article I referenced in another post about how long it takes even
on a high powered gas stove:

http://www.departures.com/ad/ad_1103_cookranges.html

I'm not sure the accuracy of an infrared thermometer for measuring that. I
use a cheap $10-15 digital meat thermometer to measure the temperatures of
things, like simmering stock or deep frying oil. This thermometer is
inserted directly in the liquid, as opposed to doing it remotely via
infrared.

> My parents electric Hotpoint range (http://greyghost.dyndns.org/stove.jpg,
> 640x480, 46KB) has no problem getting things up to a very good and rapidly
> rolling boil in about 12~16 minutes. I'd love to find one of those stoves
> somewhere, but I'll bet they are hard to come by.

That stove probably isn't particularly high powered, but it is electric. It
appears to have standard coil burners of the era. Stoves of that width (40
inches) were common enough from the 1940s through 1960s. That particular one
looks to be from around the mid 1960s. Hotpoint tends to be GE's low priced
and/or builders brand. In general, they were not high end. My father used to
buy hundreds of Hotpoint stoves when he was in the apartment building
business back in the 1960s.

GE and other manufacturers still make 40 inch stoves that are a lot like
that one. Here's a pointer to one of GE's current electric models in that
size:

http://products.geappliances.com/App...W&SITEID=GE A

(Model JCP67FWW, if that link doesn't work... start at www.ge.com and work
from there)

> Interestingly enough, the burner controls are not completely independent
> of
> one another. If another burner is turned on, the flame drops in intensity
> with the other burners.

That doesn't sound right, as other posters have mentioned. Perhaps a gas
pressure problem. There might be a very slight decrease in flame size when
another burner is started, but it should hardly be detectable.

> Is there any kind of standardized procedure for adjusting burners?

Normally under the cooktop, behind the burner knobs are the gas valves.
There is a gas "jet" right behind that, spewing as into a larger tube
leading to the burner. Around that larger tube is normally an adjustable
"shutter" that allows one to change the amount of air that is mixed with the
gas. Good adjustment is a mostly blue flame, with the occassional yellow or
orange tip. That sounds like what you've got already.

> Thanks for the information. The more I think about this, the more I think
> of
> selling this stove to someone who can use it. Since I'm going to be
> gutting
> and rewiring the house, I think I'll just take the gas line out and put a
> stove plug in its place.

That might be a whole lot more involved that you think. A house set up for
gas (stove, water heater, dryer) often has smaller electrical service coming
in than one set up for electric. You might have to have the main service
panel and incoming service line upgraded depending on what's there. In my
current house, I have 100 amp service and a fuse box. I have gas heat, gas
water heater, gas stove, and gas dryer. My A/C is provided by a district
chilled water system, so it is not using electricity either (except for the
blower). With the service I have, I could only do either an electric dryer
or an electric stove, but not both without a major upgrade to the electric
service.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

wff_ng_7 wrote:

>
>
> Maybe you're just not waiting long enough for it to come to a boil... you're
> expecting too much. Gas stoves are notorious for taking a long time to bring
> water to a boil compared to electric stoves. Even high powered residential
> stoves can take a long time. 15 to 20 to 25 or more minutes is not out of
> the ordinary.
>

I have used both and have never seen what you are describing.

"William R. Walsh" m>
wrote:
> I gave up on the thing after 25 minutes. It heated the water to a point,
> and
> just plateaued (sp?) after that according to my infrared thermometer. At
> best, the water got to be around 190 degrees (F).
>
> My parents electric Hotpoint range (http://greyghost.dyndns.org/stove.jpg,
> 640x480, 46KB) has no problem getting things up to a very good and rapidly
> rolling boil in about 12~16 minutes. I'd love to find one of those stoves
> somewhere, but I'll bet they are hard to come by.

Just another reference point to compare your stove... I did a test on my gas
stove this morning to confirm my thoughts that boiling water (in large
quantities) took "a long time". I measured how long.

My stove has 9,000 Btu burners, a little bit more than yours.

I filled an aluminum stock pot with 6 quarts of water which was at 75
degrees F. I turned the burner on high, with the cover on the pot. I
measured the temperature at 15 minutes, and it was about 190 degrees. At 19
minutes, the water came to a full rolling boil.

Starting with the same amount of water at the same temperature, your stove
should take somewhat longer (8,000 Btu vs. 9,000 Btu burners). If you have
the top off the pot, it will take longer. If your water is colder, it will
take longer. In another post I mentioned a test that had been done using
high powered residential gas stoves. That test was run with 6 quarts of 60
degree water on burners between 15,000 and 18,000 Btu. The longest took 24
minutes. Imagine how long it would take with my 45 degree winter tap water
and only 9,000 Btu!

You might want to do a similar test using a known quantity of water at a
known temperature to tell whether your stove is performing normally. You can
then decide whether this gas stove, or any gas stove is going to fit your
needs. For me, I rarely boil large quantities of water, 3 quarts being the
largest amount I do regularly. The response of gas... being able to turn the
heat up and down instantly, is far more important to me than the speed of
boiling water. I have heard that there are electric stoves that have
somewhat similar response to gas, but those are out of the question for me
anyway due to my electrical service.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

On Mon, 03 Jul 2006 04:00:45 GMT, "wff_ng_7" >
wrote:

>
> http://www.departures.com/ad/ad_1103_cookranges.html

Very interesting article (though most of the ranges were out of my
price range).

But one important thing I learned was that sealed burners are not so
good! (See the section "Air Flow"). When I was looking for a stove I
thought that was a positive attribute because of the ease of cleaning.
I have gas-through-glass which is the same thing. Oh well, I probably
would have bought Darth anyway...

Sue(tm)
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself!

"Curly Sue" > wrote:
> But one important thing I learned was that sealed burners are not so
> good! (See the section "Air Flow"). When I was looking for a stove I
> thought that was a positive attribute because of the ease of cleaning.
> I have gas-through-glass which is the same thing. Oh well, I probably
> would have bought Darth anyway...

I went through the pros and cons of seal burners with my sister earlier this
year when she remodeled her kitchen. I convinced her that the advantages
weren't really all that great and there are disadvantages. She ended up
getting an open burner Viking.

The open burner Viking (and a lot of other professional style stoves) has a
nice arrangement for cleaning. I like the slide out trays below everything
that catch the junk that falls through.

I guess one of the things I said to my sister that convinced her was how
often does one really clean down there. It depends on your cooking style and
attentiveness. Though I clean the drip pans under the burners and the
overall porcelain cooktop often enough, I don't do the area below the
cooktop very often. Perhaps every two years or so. It just doesn't get that
dirty down there. If my cooking style was different, sealed burners might be
more important to me.

--
( #wff_ng_7# at #verizon# period #net# )

Hi!

> That probably wasn't long enough, depending how much water
> was in the pot and what the starting temperature of the water was.

Hmmm. I don't remember how much water was in the pot at the time. The
temperature of the water was somewhere in the neighborhood of 70~75 degrees
(F).

All the while I was thinking "it is dinner time...and I want my dinner!" :-)

> I'm not sure the accuracy of an infrared thermometer for measuring that.

I don't know either...but one of the uses suggested in the manual is
cooking. When looking at things in the oven, it compares favorably (within
two or three degrees) with the average meat thermometer.

> GE and other manufacturers still make 40 inch stoves that are a lot like
> that one. Here's a pointer to one of GE's current electric models in that
> size:

That I'm glad to know. I am stove shopping right now and may just try to get
a big long stove...the lack of a "work space" to the side of the stove
burners is bothering me. I've been stacking things on top above the light,
to the side on a roll around cart and just everywhere I could.

> That doesn't sound right, as other posters have mentioned. Perhaps a gas
> pressure problem. There might be a very slight decrease in flame size when
> another burner is started, but it should hardly be detectable.

I really hate to call the gas company, but I'd believe it. The gas meter was
completely shot--when they first turned the gas on, nothing but a whisper
would would come out of any of the burners on the stove and the furnace
wouldn't fire at all.

While they did replace the gas meter, perhaps there is more to be done.

> Normally under the cooktop, behind the burner knobs are the gas
> valves.

That's probably how this stove works, but I can't seem to get access to that
after lifting the cooktop up. There's a metal "pan" under the cooktop that
blocks access to the burner knobs. I can, however, see the ignitors and
burners.

> That might be a whole lot more involved that you think. A house set
> up for gas (stove, water heater, dryer) often has smaller electrical
> service coming in than one set up for electric.

I am going to rewire the entire home with 200 amp service. The wiring in
place now is a hodge-podge trainwreck. As it stands, the house has 60 amp
service running through a 100 amp main breaker and way too many outlets on
each circuit for my liking. Grounding is inconsistent at best.

I'm not afraid of doing that. I'd have to seek professional installation for
an upgraded panel/meter box, but I can do branch circuits, stove wiring and
stuff along those lines. I already did a lot of rewiring in my parents home
to solve many "stupid" problems created by overloading and laziness.

Thanks again for the information.

William

William R. Walsh m> wrote:

> I am going to rewire the entire home with 200 amp service. The
> wiring in place now is a hodge-podge trainwreck. As it stands,
> the house has 60 amp service running through a 100 amp main
> breaker and way too many outlets on each circuit for my
> liking. Grounding is inconsistent at best.

Grounding should be cleaned up, however the National Electric
Code permits any number of outlets on a circuit -- they
just have to be in a single chain, and not branched.
Check for branch lines and tapping off of circuits in the
middle. Those should be cleaned up.

good luck

Steve