In rec.food.cooking, Joe Cilinceon > wrote:
> Here is a 13" Griswold fry pan for you Griswold owners to look at. Based on
> this price on ebay I may just sell my 5 Griswold pans.

> http://cgi.ebay.com/Griswold-13-Cast...QQcmdZViewItem

> And the reserve isn't even meet yet.


Wow.

--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

In rec.food.cooking, limey > wrote:

> > wrote :

> Why not just eat a better diet?
> >
> Because I'm incapable of absorbing B-12, regardless of diet - and I've been
> through enough tests, thank you. Now I can only supplement, per the M.D.


Wow. I had no idea that such a condition existed. I just eat lots of
whole grains and figure that I'll be OK.

--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

In rec.food.cooking, OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote:

> The best source of B-vitamins is red meat,

How about stuff like brown rice, whole wheat, etc? Are they good sources?


--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

In article <Wg_sg.17507$_c1.8298@fed1read05>,
PastaLover > wrote:

> OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> > In article <UZXsg.17498$_c1.10099@fed1read05>,
> > PastaLover > wrote:
> >
> >
> wrote:
> >>
> >>>In rec.food.cooking, limey > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Yep, I give myself monthly shots of B-12, plus folic acid every day, plus
> >>>>iron pills. I'm thankful another r.f.c. poster told me about giving
> >>>>myself
> >>>>the shots, instead of dragging off to the M.D.'s office, waiting my turn,
> >>>>and having them do it for a fee. Part of the fun of getting older.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Why not just eat a better diet?
> >>>
> >>
> >>B vitamins are absorbed by the intestine. Various diseases or types of
> >>surgery sometimes limit how well this absorption occurs. Therefore, you
> >>can eat the best diet in the world and it ain't gonna help.
> >
> >
> > Very true.
> >
> > One thing that helps tho' is to take vitamins only in capsules and not
> > in compressed tablets. They dissolve more easily. That's why the
> > majority of "Twinlabs" brand vitamins are in capsules. It's one of the
> > better brands out there.
> >
> > There are also liquid vitamins available and that helps too.
>
> I have Crohn's disease and I take only liquid supplements when I can. Or
> chewable or capsules if necessary; but only as a secondary consideration
> to liquid. I've swallowed some very foul tasting stuff because if this.
>
> I'm doing much better now; on Remicade. It bypasses the stomach
> entirely--I go to my doctor's office once every 8 weeks for an IV infusion.

Crohn's sux.
Are you on Prednisone?
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
wrote:

> In rec.food.cooking, OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote:
>
> > I do the vast majority of my cooking in either the #10 or the #12
> > Griswold. :-)
>
> I'll bet they work very well.

They do indeed...

>
>
> > I will _not_ use aluminum.
> > It's too damned reactive.
>
> It depends on what you cook in it. Also, anodized aluminum is not so
> reactive. It has all the good qualities of aluminum, but eliminates on of
> the bad points.

I'd rather not worry about it. <G>
I like tomato and lemon too much.

>
> Do you simmer tomato sauce in your cast iron?

Sure do!

>
> > I have a #14 Griswold for roasting turkeys! That bugger will hold a 20
> > lb. turkey. :-)
>
> That sounds truly awesome. Did you inherit that?

Got it off ebay actually. :-)
Cheap. The idiot had taken a shop wheel to it. <sigh>
It's plenty re-seasoned now tho', but what he did lowered it's value. I
got the bid for a measly $45.00.

> Got any pics? I'd love
> to have something like that!

Not on hand... I'll save this post and take some for ya as soon as I get
a chance. :-)
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

In article >,
wrote:

> In rec.food.cooking, OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote:
>
> > The best source of B-vitamins is red meat,
>
> How about stuff like brown rice, whole wheat, etc? Are they good sources?
>

http://www.netfit.co.uk/vit3.htm

B-12 appears to come mostly from animal sources according to this site.
It depends on the B-vitamin.

I consume a low calorie diet so I just hedge my bets by taking a
B-complex capsule every day.
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

In rec.food.cooking, Mike H > wrote:
> wrote in :

> > Why do you want one with enamel on it?

> If you're going to do a lot of tomato based cooking, CI is reactive, which
> can be bad. IT's better to use an enameled CI Dutch oven for brasing or
> stewing acidic stuff.

Gotcha. Thanks.

--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

> wrote:
>In rec.food.cooking, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>
>> Calphalon is crap in any situation.
>
>What is so crappy about it? I have a few pieces which seem to perform
>well enough. It is just machined, anodized aluminum, with stainless
>handles riveted on. It is very simple, no-frills kind of stuff. I got it
>cheap at Amazon when this particular line was discontinued.

I got a small frying pan when they were on deep discount
at one of the home stores (Good whatever).

It just didn't perform well. I now use it as a meat
mallet. And I wish I had a real meat mallet.

However, I have tried to deliberately maim it in the
dishwasher. Haven't seen the pitting. Probably takes
more than one wash.

>> I have a cupboard full of All-Clad, and for one or two things
>> I wish I had a nicely seasoned Lodge skillet and a Le Creuset
>> enameled cast-iron dutch oven.
>
>I have a nice Lodge Dutch Oven that I got at their outlet store in TN for
>cheap. It was no fun carrying it on the plane, but now I enjoy using it
>very much. Why do you want one with enamel on it?

I have a thing for Le Creuset. Visions of coq au vin.
No worries about seasoning.

--Blair

OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> In article <Wg_sg.17507$_c1.8298@fed1read05>,
> PastaLover > wrote:
>
>
>>OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
>>
>>>In article <UZXsg.17498$_c1.10099@fed1read05>,
>>> PastaLover > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In rec.food.cooking, limey > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Yep, I give myself monthly shots of B-12, plus folic acid every day, plus
>>>>>>iron pills. I'm thankful another r.f.c. poster told me about giving
>>>>>>myself
>>>>>>the shots, instead of dragging off to the M.D.'s office, waiting my turn,
>>>>>>and having them do it for a fee. Part of the fun of getting older.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why not just eat a better diet?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>B vitamins are absorbed by the intestine. Various diseases or types of
>>>>surgery sometimes limit how well this absorption occurs. Therefore, you
>>>>can eat the best diet in the world and it ain't gonna help.
>>>
>>>
>>>Very true.
>>>
>>>One thing that helps tho' is to take vitamins only in capsules and not
>>>in compressed tablets. They dissolve more easily. That's why the
>>>majority of "Twinlabs" brand vitamins are in capsules. It's one of the
>>>better brands out there.
>>>
>>>There are also liquid vitamins available and that helps too.
>>
>>I have Crohn's disease and I take only liquid supplements when I can. Or
>>chewable or capsules if necessary; but only as a secondary consideration
>>to liquid. I've swallowed some very foul tasting stuff because if this.
>>
>>I'm doing much better now; on Remicade. It bypasses the stomach
>>entirely--I go to my doctor's office once every 8 weeks for an IV infusion.
>
>
> Crohn's sux.
> Are you on Prednisone?

No. But I was as a teen. Nasty stuff; almost as bad as the disease.

Azathioprine and the Remicade now.

In article <Ecitg.17810$_c1.601@fed1read05>,
PastaLover > wrote:

> OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> > In article <Wg_sg.17507$_c1.8298@fed1read05>,
> > PastaLover > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> >>
> >>>In article <UZXsg.17498$_c1.10099@fed1read05>,
> >>> PastaLover > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>In rec.food.cooking, limey > wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>Yep, I give myself monthly shots of B-12, plus folic acid every day,
> >>>>>>plus
> >>>>>>iron pills. I'm thankful another r.f.c. poster told me about giving
> >>>>>>myself
> >>>>>>the shots, instead of dragging off to the M.D.'s office, waiting my
> >>>>>>turn,
> >>>>>>and having them do it for a fee. Part of the fun of getting older.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Why not just eat a better diet?
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>B vitamins are absorbed by the intestine. Various diseases or types of
> >>>>surgery sometimes limit how well this absorption occurs. Therefore, you
> >>>>can eat the best diet in the world and it ain't gonna help.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>Very true.
> >>>
> >>>One thing that helps tho' is to take vitamins only in capsules and not
> >>>in compressed tablets. They dissolve more easily. That's why the
> >>>majority of "Twinlabs" brand vitamins are in capsules. It's one of the
> >>>better brands out there.
> >>>
> >>>There are also liquid vitamins available and that helps too.
> >>
> >>I have Crohn's disease and I take only liquid supplements when I can. Or
> >>chewable or capsules if necessary; but only as a secondary consideration
> >>to liquid. I've swallowed some very foul tasting stuff because if this.
> >>
> >>I'm doing much better now; on Remicade. It bypasses the stomach
> >>entirely--I go to my doctor's office once every 8 weeks for an IV infusion.
> >
> >
> > Crohn's sux.
> > Are you on Prednisone?
>
> No. But I was as a teen. Nasty stuff; almost as bad as the disease.
>
> Azathioprine and the Remicade now.

I'm glad to hear that there is finally a good alternative therapy. :-)
Chrohn's is bad and prednisone used to be the drug of choice for it.

Do you use probiotics at all?
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

"OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
...
..

>>
>> Where in Texas do you live?
>
> San Marcos.
>
>>
>> Chris in Pearland, TX (burb of Houston)
>
> I know. ;-)
> The Houston area is pretty. Combines coastal area with pine forests...
> Our closest pine forest is Bastrop, about an hour or so away.
> --
> Peace!
> Om



I live close to Pearland in Sagemont Park. I think the prettiest part of
Tx. is in North East. That is where we are from so maybe that is why I feel
that way. Pine trees and red clay and hills. It is hot though.

In article > ,
"Phyllis Stone" > wrote:

> "OmManiPadmeOmelet" > wrote in message
> ...
> .
>
> >>
> >> Where in Texas do you live?
> >
> > San Marcos.
> >
> >>
> >> Chris in Pearland, TX (burb of Houston)
> >
> > I know. ;-)
> > The Houston area is pretty. Combines coastal area with pine forests...
> > Our closest pine forest is Bastrop, about an hour or so away.
> > --
> > Peace!
> > Om
>
>
>
> I live close to Pearland in Sagemont Park. I think the prettiest part of
> Tx. is in North East. That is where we are from so maybe that is why I feel
> that way. Pine trees and red clay and hills. It is hot though.

North East is up near Arkansas... More mountains.

I agree. :-)

West Texas kinda sux imho.
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

> > >> Where in Texas do you live?
> > >
> > > San Marcos.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Chris in Pearland, TX (burb of Houston)
> > >
> > > I know. ;-)
> > > The Houston area is pretty. Combines coastal area with pine forests...
> > > Our closest pine forest is Bastrop, about an hour or so away.
> > > --
> > > Peace!
> > > Om
> >
> >
> >
> > I live close to Pearland in Sagemont Park. I think the prettiest part
of
> > Tx. is in North East. That is where we are from so maybe that is why I
feel
> > that way. Pine trees and red clay and hills. It is hot though.
>
> North East is up near Arkansas... More mountains.
>
> I agree. :-)
>
> West Texas kinda sux imho.
> --
> Peace!
> Om


Yet another neighbor Phyllis! I pretty much know where you live. Our
family doctor (Michael Warneke if you happen to know him) He's at SE
Memorial and lives in Sagemont.

We've taken a number of trips from Friendswood/Pearland to Phoenix and
Flagstaff, AZ and prefer the northern route (going via the pandlehandle)
rather than going through El Paso...

Have ya'll ever been to Fort Stockton (to be avoided if at all possible
<g>)! Write me privately if ya'll feel like it.



Chris in Pearland, TX

In rec.food.cooking, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
> > wrote:
> >In rec.food.cooking, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
> >
> >> Calphalon is crap in any situation.
> >
> >What is so crappy about it? I have a few pieces which seem to perform
> >well enough. It is just machined, anodized aluminum, with stainless
> >handles riveted on. It is very simple, no-frills kind of stuff. I got it
> >cheap at Amazon when this particular line was discontinued.

> I got a small frying pan when they were on deep discount
> at one of the home stores (Good whatever).

> It just didn't perform well. I now use it as a meat
> mallet. And I wish I had a real meat mallet.

That's not much to go on if you conclude that it is crap in any situation.
And besides, there are a bunch of different lines under the brand
umbrella. There are some sold in home stores that I would not consider,
but there are other lines that are the highest quality (for what they
are). Mine are thick anodized aluminum, machined down to be smooth, with
stainless handles riveted on. The handles are pierced, so that the
badly-conducting stainless is thin where you don't grip it, keeping the
thick part cool.

They are just very simple, with the form dictated by the function. Really
nothing special. But they well for what they are - thick aluminum
pots and pans.

> I have a thing for Le Creuset. Visions of coq au vin.
> No worries about seasoning.

Too rich for my blood. I like simple and direct, authentic stuff. But
that being said, those Le Creusets sure do look nice...

--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

> wrote:
>In rec.food.cooking, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>> It just didn't perform well. I now use it as a meat
>> mallet. And I wish I had a real meat mallet.
>
>That's not much to go on if you conclude that it is crap in any situation.
>And besides, there are a bunch of different lines under the brand
>umbrella. There are some sold in home stores that I would not consider,
>but there are other lines that are the highest quality (for what they
>are). Mine are thick anodized aluminum, machined down to be smooth, with
>stainless handles riveted on. The handles are pierced, so that the
>badly-conducting stainless is thin where you don't grip it, keeping the
>thick part cool.

That's the one.

>They are just very simple, with the form dictated by the function. Really
>nothing special. But they well for what they are - thick aluminum
>pots and pans.

They don't do the non-stick thing they promised.
Might as well be bare steel. I have bare steel.
I also have non-stick. I've never found a reason
to recommend Calphalon.

>> I have a thing for Le Creuset. Visions of coq au vin.
>> No worries about seasoning.
>
>Too rich for my blood. I like simple and direct, authentic stuff. But
>that being said, those Le Creusets sure do look nice...

Yeah. Ridiculously expensive for cast iron with baked-on
paint; almost 18th-century technology.

--Blair

mike wrote:
> hello,
>
> lately when i look at our non-stick pans/skillets i notice where some of the
> finish is scraped and scratched. somehow it must be getting in the food.
>
> thinking of going back to cast iron. the prices are all over the place. i
> saw a 3 piece skillet set by ol'martha stewart for $16 at k-mart and a
> single 11" cast iron skillet for over $100 at a cooking specialty store.
>
> is cast iron "cast iron," if you know what i'm trying to ask? are there
> vaying degrees of quality? anyone here use martha's cast iron stuff?
>
> thanks,
>
> mike


Hello,

I have used real cast iron skillets for years and I have several
Wal-Mart pig iron cast iron skillets as well. The real cast iron will
have a stamp in the bottom of them like it will say made. USA size 9 or
size A to Z and/or the name of her caster, these old girl are very
heavy and the heat more even then the one from Martha Steward or
Wal-Mart or camping one. The real cast iron is real pour iron mixed
with sand, because of this real cast and cold water will kill the
skillet or pan they break like glass., the new pig iron they cast is
like sand iron junk mix. The new junk is bumpy looking and the got this
weird blacking stuff on the this junk peels off after awhile. Most of
my real cast irons I found in garage sales of older dearies or antiques
shops or farmer sales. With real cast iron they can be use the skillets
and dutchovens as bakeware as well. The pig iron skillets from Wal-mart
etc, are not as durable. I was taught will real cast iron you NEVER
allow them to sit in a sink of water they rust. NEVER place in a
dishwasher, you will kill the cooking surface for lack of a better
word. Wash by wash by hand and dry by placing them on the stove top
over high heat gas or eletric, the water boil away and the skillet will
dry itself. Allow it to cool by placing off the burner onto the back
one. When it cools completely you store in oven or oven bottom, Never
place in a self for fear of rust and/or warping. The real cast need to
reseasoned two times a month. This done with bacon grease or lard.
Meduim heat melt the grease or lard it is always a small dab to begin
with, first remove the skillet or pan first left cool enough it will
not burn you when do step two,then with a cloth towel or paper towels,
start rubbing the melted fats all over the inside pan the lip of the
pan and handle top. If then extra fats pour out and rub until it is
shiny and slick to the touch. This seasoning is easier to cook on. Like
eggs will stick if no oil when cooking is used but that is true of
non-stick pans.. Then when eggs are done I just wipe out and use a
squeeze of dawn and water wash and dry them again like the before. The
reason, why I use cast iron I will burn regular pans to the elment or
spirder, lol. I'm an awesome cook, because I use what I was taught to
cook with, all I can say is thanks granny. I also use the old fashion
real enamal ware as so for the same reason. LOL I never burn a meal
with the real McCoys, lol. I hope this helps out?
EM

OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> In article <Ecitg.17810$_c1.601@fed1read05>,
> PastaLover > wrote:
>
>
>>OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
>>
>>>In article <Wg_sg.17507$_c1.8298@fed1read05>,
>>> PastaLover > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In article <UZXsg.17498$_c1.10099@fed1read05>,
>>>>>PastaLover > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In rec.food.cooking, limey > wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Yep, I give myself monthly shots of B-12, plus folic acid every day,
>>>>>>>>plus
>>>>>>>>iron pills. I'm thankful another r.f.c. poster told me about giving
>>>>>>>>myself
>>>>>>>>the shots, instead of dragging off to the M.D.'s office, waiting my
>>>>>>>>turn,
>>>>>>>>and having them do it for a fee. Part of the fun of getting older.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Why not just eat a better diet?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>B vitamins are absorbed by the intestine. Various diseases or types of
>>>>>>surgery sometimes limit how well this absorption occurs. Therefore, you
>>>>>>can eat the best diet in the world and it ain't gonna help.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Very true.
>>>>>
>>>>>One thing that helps tho' is to take vitamins only in capsules and not
>>>>>in compressed tablets. They dissolve more easily. That's why the
>>>>>majority of "Twinlabs" brand vitamins are in capsules. It's one of the
>>>>>better brands out there.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are also liquid vitamins available and that helps too.
>>>>
>>>>I have Crohn's disease and I take only liquid supplements when I can. Or
>>>>chewable or capsules if necessary; but only as a secondary consideration
>>>>to liquid. I've swallowed some very foul tasting stuff because if this.
>>>>
>>>>I'm doing much better now; on Remicade. It bypasses the stomach
>>>>entirely--I go to my doctor's office once every 8 weeks for an IV infusion.
>>>
>>>
>>>Crohn's sux.
>>>Are you on Prednisone?
>>
>>No. But I was as a teen. Nasty stuff; almost as bad as the disease.
>>
>>Azathioprine and the Remicade now.
>
>
> I'm glad to hear that there is finally a good alternative therapy. :-)
> Chrohn's is bad and prednisone used to be the drug of choice for it.
>
> Do you use probiotics at all?

Yes.

In rec.food.cooking, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

> They don't do the non-stick thing they promised.

I was unaware that they were supposed to be nonstick. I just assumed that
they needed some oil or butter, so I wasn't disappointed.

> Might as well be bare steel. I have bare steel.

Except that steel is a lousy conductor of heat, and IIRC, doesn't hold
heat very well either. Aluminum, OTOH, is both an excellent conductor and
a good holder of heat.


--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

On 13 Jul 2006 18:36:00 -0700, "bastettkatt"
> wrote:

> I hope this helps out?

Lots of interesting information. Thank you!

Carol

In article <6fDtg.17878$_c1.8470@fed1read05>,
PastaLover > wrote:

> > Do you use probiotics at all?
>
> Yes.

Ok. :-)

I know it's not the same as Chrone's but I've had IBS all my life and a
good MD that also is a nutripath recommended those. I find that they
help a lot.

Chrone's however is an autoimmune condition if IRRC?
That's tough to beat, but some people recommend antihistamines...

Have you heard anything about that?
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

"bastettkatt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> mike wrote:
> > hello,
> >
> > lately when i look at our non-stick pans/skillets i notice where some of
the
> > finish is scraped and scratched. somehow it must be getting in the food.
> >
> > thinking of going back to cast iron. the prices are all over the place.
i
> > saw a 3 piece skillet set by ol'martha stewart for $16 at k-mart and a
> > single 11" cast iron skillet for over $100 at a cooking specialty
store.
> >
> > is cast iron "cast iron," if you know what i'm trying to ask? are there
> > vaying degrees of quality? anyone here use martha's cast iron stuff?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > mike
>
>
> Hello,
>
> I have used real cast iron skillets for years and I have several
> Wal-Mart pig iron cast iron skillets as well. The real cast iron will
> have a stamp in the bottom of them like it will say made. USA size 9 or
> size A to Z and/or the name of her caster, these old girl are very
> heavy and the heat more even then the one from Martha Steward or
> Wal-Mart or camping one. The real cast iron is real pour iron mixed
> with sand, because of this real cast and cold water will kill the
> skillet or pan they break like glass., the new pig iron they cast is
> like sand iron junk mix.

I have a 150 yr old pan, a 100+ yr old 3 foot long lumberjack grill,
some 80 yr old pans and some younger, skillets to dutch ovens, with one as
new as 5 yrs old.
As an engineer, I have spec'd cast iron for pours up to several tons and
have personally poured small pours the size of a medallion.

1) There are two major categories of cast iron - grey (the basic stuff) and
white. Other categories include ductile/nodular, ductile/nodular austenitic,
and malleable cast iron, all basically grey iron with stuff added and the
mix adjusted. The basic formula hasn't changed since the 1800s,
White is more abrasion, corrosion, and heat resistant than grey types,
but the price is that it is brittle (10-15 ft lbs Charpy impact for grey
iron vs 3-5 lbs Charpy for white)
( Grey is excellent for damping and is used in things like engine blocks;
white is used in furnace grates and hot acid immersed parts; ductile is more
impact resistant and is used in things like crankshafts; ductile austenitic
is more seawater resistant and is used in valves and kettles.)
There are also special grades, like non-magnetic cast iron.

2) all cast iron has the same specific heat (basically, how much heat per
pound it can hold)

3) Thermal conductivity of all cast iron is within 20% of nominal. (in other
words, the burner has more effect than the type of iron)

4) There is no "sand" in cast iron. Silica (sand or silicon dioxide) is
removed when iron is made from ore. Almost all cast irons have about 1-2%
Silicon in the alloy
(but there is a special white iron chlorine-resistant type, very brittle,
at 14% Silicon).

"Green sand" is used to make the molds into which cast iron is poured. The
coarser the sand in the mold, the coarser the cast finish.


>The new junk is bumpy looking and the got this
> weird blacking stuff on the this junk peels off after awhile.

That would be the factory baked-on seasoning. It is different than the
seasoning you use, according to your description (and different than the one
I use, BTW). IMHO, I think the factory seasoning is a waste.

Most of
> my real cast irons I found in garage sales of older dearies or antiques
> shops or farmer sales. With real cast iron they can be use the skillets
> and dutchovens as bakeware as well. The pig iron skillets from Wal-mart
> etc, are not as durable.

Can't speak to the WalMart chinese-vendor cast iron - God knows what is in
that stuff.

> I was taught will real cast iron you NEVER
> allow them to sit in a sink of water they rust. NEVER place in a
> dishwasher, you will kill the cooking surface for lack of a better
> word. Wash by wash by hand and dry by placing them on the stove top
> over high heat gas or eletric, the water boil away and the skillet will
> dry itself. Allow it to cool by placing off the burner onto the back
> one. When it cools completely you store in oven or oven bottom, Never
> place in a self for fear of rust and/or warping.

Basically correct - it sounds like you create the black oxide and then wash
it off with soap..
Don't bet the house, but I think that if you did not clean it with soap
and still did what you do, you would get the black oxide to stay and build
up. But whatever works for you is what counts.

Cast iron is one big mass of stress concentrations, which is why it is so
stable. If a casting is odd shaped and just been cast, it will warp itself
stable in the first two years.
However, a pan is regular and doesn't warp sitting on a shelf, and unless
it is defective, you pretty much can't warp it.

>The real cast need to
> reseasoned two times a month.

With a few exceptions (like when my children cooked tomatoes in one), my
oldest pans to my newest pans have never been reseasoned in 30 years, and
some of them are only used a couple times a year. However, my seasoning
method is a little different than yours.
Oil-seasoned pans (like your method) retain oil, some types of which will
go rancid fairly quickly if there is a fairly heavy coat of oil on the pan.

>This done with bacon grease or lard.

The animal fats are probably why you have to season them twice a month. Oil
starts to go rancid. ( Olive oil takes longer to go bad.)

> Meduim heat melt the grease or lard it is always a small dab to begin
> with, first remove the skillet or pan first left cool enough it will
> not burn you when do step two,then with a cloth towel or paper towels,
> start rubbing the melted fats all over the inside pan the lip of the
> pan and handle top. If then extra fats pour out and rub until it is
> shiny and slick to the touch. This seasoning is easier to cook on.


Apparently there are at least three things called "seasoning", using either
one or a combination of the following:

a) Coating a hot pan with oil -seals the pan kind of like paint would.

b) coating a pan with oil and then heating it for an hour or more, until the
oil turns to varnish -seals the pan almost exactly like a baked on paint
does. If it were linseed oil, you would get paint/varnish on the pan.

c) creating a black-iron oxide surface on the iron by cleaning the oiled
surface when quite hot with a dab of water and a natural bristle brush
- it's creating the same oxide as the black on a gun barrel, an oxide
type which seals the barrel steel against red rust, The black oxide seals
the iron in the pan pan similar to what oxidizing does for aluminum
naturally.
(It is important with this last method that you always add a bit of oil
before cooking in the pan -otherwise you are cooking on dry iron.)


Like
> eggs will stick if no oil when cooking is used but that is true of
> non-stick pans.. Then when eggs are done I just wipe out and use a
> squeeze of dawn and water wash and dry them again like the before.

Yes - since you use soap, you will need to replace the oil the soap takes
off, so your seasoning method works if you replace the oil you wash off.
My pans have never been in water and have never had any soap on them in
my 30+ yrs of having them. (That came from some European chefs I knew who
were all denigrating American restaurants because they washed their pans in
soap and water.)

The
> reason, why I use cast iron I will burn regular pans to the elment or
> spirder, lol. I'm an awesome cook, because I use what I was taught to
> cook with, all I can say is thanks granny. I also use the old fashion
> real enamal ware as so for the same reason.

Spewaking of enamelware - An interesting thing about the old enamelware I
have noticed, doing cooking over open fires (not open flames!) with big
coffee pots and soup pots- if you don't scrub the enamelware with anything
abrasive ever in its life, the smoke and soot and etc. washes off with a wet
soapy terry rag-
but if you use an abrasive pad even once, it then sticks forevermore and
you are doomed to scrubbing the outside as long as you own that scrubbed
pot.



LOL I never burn a meal
> with the real McCoys, lol. I hope this helps out?

Thanx for the input - it really brought one of the seasoning methods into
clearer focus.

(Of course, I will still use MY method of seasoning :-)) )

take care..


> EM
>

OmManiPadmeOmelet wrote:
> In article <6fDtg.17878$_c1.8470@fed1read05>,
> PastaLover > wrote:
>
>
>>>Do you use probiotics at all?
>>
>>Yes.
>
>
> Ok. :-)
>
> I know it's not the same as Chrone's but I've had IBS all my life and a
> good MD that also is a nutripath recommended those. I find that they
> help a lot.
>
> Chrone's however is an autoimmune condition if IRRC?
> That's tough to beat, but some people recommend antihistamines...
>
> Have you heard anything about that?

Yes. Some Crohn's research out of Vancouver suggests that Crohn's might
have at least a minor allergy component.

> wrote:
>In rec.food.cooking, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>
>> They don't do the non-stick thing they promised.
>
>I was unaware that they were supposed to be nonstick. I just assumed that
>they needed some oil or butter, so I wasn't disappointed.
>
>> Might as well be bare steel. I have bare steel.
>
>Except that steel is a lousy conductor of heat, and IIRC, doesn't hold
>heat very well either. Aluminum, OTOH, is both an excellent conductor and
>a good holder of heat.

Bare steel sandwiching aluminum. The good pans.

--Blair

hob > wrote:
>2) all cast iron has the same specific heat (basically, how much heat per
>pound it can hold)

If that's really true, it's surprising, considering
the chemical differences and its other differentiated
properties.

>3) Thermal conductivity of all cast iron is within 20% of nominal. (in other
>words, the burner has more effect than the type of iron)

Lemme check something.

Thought so.

The specific heat of cast iron is the same as
steel.

But the thermal conductivities can be very different,
with shiny nickel steels about 1/5th as conductive.

So the heat capacity that we all attribute to cast iron
seems to be coming from the enormous weight of the pan.
And the higher conductivity means cast iron is more capable
of releasing its heat to the food.

Cast iron pans are thin because cast iron can't be made
into a pan as thin as a steel pan.

Aluminum has about 3 times the conductivity of cast iron,
and about 1.5 times the heat capacity, but has chemical
reactions with food, and damages easily. Cast iron
reacts with some foods, too, but steel doesn't.

So All-Clad wrapped a thick layer of aluminum in two very
thin layers of nickel steel. The thinness of the steel
means its thermal properties are overwhelmed by those
of the aluminum in determining the overall properties of
the pan.

Thus, aluminum and cast-iron pans are inferior to steel-
sandwiched aluminum for almost all uses.

The cast-iron pan will still deliver a more even sear, and
moderate an uneven heat source better, but that's because
of its mass. Aluminum is one third the density of cast
iron; to have the same total heat capacity, the aluminum
would layer have to be 2/3rds as heavy as a cast-iron pan.
Thus to have the same searing properties, an All-Clad pan
would have to be twice as thick as a cast iron pan. It
would still be lighter.

> Cast iron is one big mass of stress concentrations, which is why it is so
>stable. If a casting is odd shaped and just been cast, it will warp itself
>stable in the first two years.

Um, how does it know what the "right" shape is? And why don't
more pans that look good out of the casting end up warping
stable into odd shapes later?

And do manufacturers allow pans to age for two years before
final inspection and shipping?

> However, a pan is regular and doesn't warp sitting on a shelf, and unless
>it is defective, you pretty much can't warp it.


>>This done with bacon grease or lard.
>
>The animal fats are probably why you have to season them twice a month. Oil
>starts to go rancid. ( Olive oil takes longer to go bad.)

Oil that's been cooked that hot shouldn't have anything left
in it to go rancid. Your pans with the 30-year seasoning
have a lot of animal-fat stuff in them, too.

Two reasons I don't think animal fat is the problem.

>c) creating a black-iron oxide surface on the iron by cleaning the oiled
>surface when quite hot with a dab of water and a natural bristle brush
> - it's creating the same oxide as the black on a gun barrel, an oxide
>type which seals the barrel steel against red rust, The black oxide seals
>the iron in the pan pan similar to what oxidizing does for aluminum
>naturally.
> (It is important with this last method that you always add a bit of oil
>before cooking in the pan -otherwise you are cooking on dry iron.)

Sounds like a thoroughly unseasoned pan. You're
supposed to be able to clean a seasoned pan by wiping
it out.

> My pans have never been in water and have never had any soap on them in
>my 30+ yrs of having them. (That came from some European chefs I knew who
>were all denigrating American restaurants because they washed their pans in
>soap and water.)

I bet they're coated with varnish. It'd be cool to see
how thick it is. Can I saw your pan in half to get a
cross-section?

--Blair

Hi there, I prefer to buy the expensive ones ( pre-seasoned ), actually
I had bought both, but to season a cast iron skillet you may need some
time and love because it takes time.

The best of the best are "Le Creuset" from France and also the
expensive ones, but we just love our cast iron skillets.

Maybe next week I will buy another cast iron but bigger for frying
fish.

Nothing compares with a well seasoned cast iron, once you cook with
them, you will love forever, your meals will taste better and that is
priceless.

Regards from Mexico,


Alex.:

In rec.food.cooking, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

> >> Might as well be bare steel. I have bare steel.
> >
> >Except that steel is a lousy conductor of heat, and IIRC, doesn't hold
> >heat very well either. Aluminum, OTOH, is both an excellent conductor and
> >a good holder of heat.

> Bare steel sandwiching aluminum. The good pans.

Might as well be anodized aluminum. I have anodized aluminum. And they
are not crappy, IME. They perform well, are light, and are cheap.

--
A nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves.
--Edward R. Murrow

hob wrote:
> "bastettkatt" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > mike wrote:
> > > hello,
> > >
> > > lately when i look at our non-stick pans/skillets i notice where some of
> the
> > > finish is scraped and scratched. somehow it must be getting in the food.
> > >
> > > thinking of going back to cast iron. the prices are all over the place.
> i
> > > saw a 3 piece skillet set by ol'martha stewart for $16 at k-mart and a
> > > single 11" cast iron skillet for over $100 at a cooking specialty
> store.
> > >
> > > is cast iron "cast iron," if you know what i'm trying to ask? are there
> > > vaying degrees of quality? anyone here use martha's cast iron stuff?
> > >
> > > thanks,
> > >
> > > mike
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > I have used real cast iron skillets for years and I have several
> > Wal-Mart pig iron cast iron skillets as well. The real cast iron will
> > have a stamp in the bottom of them like it will say made. USA size 9 or
> > size A to Z and/or the name of her caster, these old girl are very
> > heavy and the heat more even then the one from Martha Steward or
> > Wal-Mart or camping one. The real cast iron is real pour iron mixed
> > with sand, because of this real cast and cold water will kill the
> > skillet or pan they break like glass., the new pig iron they cast is
> > like sand iron junk mix.
>
> I have a 150 yr old pan, a 100+ yr old 3 foot long lumberjack grill,
> some 80 yr old pans and some younger, skillets to dutch ovens, with one as
> new as 5 yrs old.
> As an engineer, I have spec'd cast iron for pours up to several tons and
> have personally poured small pours the size of a medallion.
>
> 1) There are two major categories of cast iron - grey (the basic stuff) and
> white. Other categories include ductile/nodular, ductile/nodular austenitic,
> and malleable cast iron, all basically grey iron with stuff added and the
> mix adjusted. The basic formula hasn't changed since the 1800s,
> White is more abrasion, corrosion, and heat resistant than grey types,
> but the price is that it is brittle (10-15 ft lbs Charpy impact for grey
> iron vs 3-5 lbs Charpy for white)
> ( Grey is excellent for damping and is used in things like engine blocks;
> white is used in furnace grates and hot acid immersed parts; ductile is more
> impact resistant and is used in things like crankshafts; ductile austenitic
> is more seawater resistant and is used in valves and kettles.)
> There are also special grades, like non-magnetic cast iron.
>
> 2) all cast iron has the same specific heat (basically, how much heat per
> pound it can hold)
>
> 3) Thermal conductivity of all cast iron is within 20% of nominal. (in other
> words, the burner has more effect than the type of iron)
>
> 4) There is no "sand" in cast iron. Silica (sand or silicon dioxide) is
> removed when iron is made from ore. Almost all cast irons have about 1-2%
> Silicon in the alloy
> (but there is a special white iron chlorine-resistant type, very brittle,
> at 14% Silicon).
>
> "Green sand" is used to make the molds into which cast iron is poured. The
> coarser the sand in the mold, the coarser the cast finish.
>
>
> >The new junk is bumpy looking and the got this
> > weird blacking stuff on the this junk peels off after awhile.
>
> That would be the factory baked-on seasoning. It is different than the
> seasoning you use, according to your description (and different than the one
> I use, BTW). IMHO, I think the factory seasoning is a waste.
>
> Most of
> > my real cast irons I found in garage sales of older dearies or antiques
> > shops or farmer sales. With real cast iron they can be use the skillets
> > and dutchovens as bakeware as well. The pig iron skillets from Wal-mart
> > etc, are not as durable.
>
> Can't speak to the WalMart chinese-vendor cast iron - God knows what is in
> that stuff.
>
> > I was taught will real cast iron you NEVER
> > allow them to sit in a sink of water they rust. NEVER place in a
> > dishwasher, you will kill the cooking surface for lack of a better
> > word. Wash by wash by hand and dry by placing them on the stove top
> > over high heat gas or eletric, the water boil away and the skillet will
> > dry itself. Allow it to cool by placing off the burner onto the back
> > one. When it cools completely you store in oven or oven bottom, Never
> > place in a self for fear of rust and/or warping.
>
> Basically correct - it sounds like you create the black oxide and then wash
> it off with soap..
> Don't bet the house, but I think that if you did not clean it with soap
> and still did what you do, you would get the black oxide to stay and build
> up. But whatever works for you is what counts.
>
> Cast iron is one big mass of stress concentrations, which is why it is so
> stable. If a casting is odd shaped and just been cast, it will warp itself
> stable in the first two years.
> However, a pan is regular and doesn't warp sitting on a shelf, and unless
> it is defective, you pretty much can't warp it.
>
> >The real cast need to
> > reseasoned two times a month.
>
> With a few exceptions (like when my children cooked tomatoes in one), my
> oldest pans to my newest pans have never been reseasoned in 30 years, and
> some of them are only used a couple times a year. However, my seasoning
> method is a little different than yours.
> Oil-seasoned pans (like your method) retain oil, some types of which will
> go rancid fairly quickly if there is a fairly heavy coat of oil on the pan.
>
> >This done with bacon grease or lard.
>
> The animal fats are probably why you have to season them twice a month. Oil
> starts to go rancid. ( Olive oil takes longer to go bad.)
>
> > Meduim heat melt the grease or lard it is always a small dab to begin
> > with, first remove the skillet or pan first left cool enough it will
> > not burn you when do step two,then with a cloth towel or paper towels,
> > start rubbing the melted fats all over the inside pan the lip of the
> > pan and handle top. If then extra fats pour out and rub until it is
> > shiny and slick to the touch. This seasoning is easier to cook on.
>
>
> Apparently there are at least three things called "seasoning", using either
> one or a combination of the following:
>
> a) Coating a hot pan with oil -seals the pan kind of like paint would.
>
> b) coating a pan with oil and then heating it for an hour or more, until the
> oil turns to varnish -seals the pan almost exactly like a baked on paint
> does. If it were linseed oil, you would get paint/varnish on the pan.
>
> c) creating a black-iron oxide surface on the iron by cleaning the oiled
> surface when quite hot with a dab of water and a natural bristle brush
> - it's creating the same oxide as the black on a gun barrel, an oxide
> type which seals the barrel steel against red rust, The black oxide seals
> the iron in the pan pan similar to what oxidizing does for aluminum
> naturally.
> (It is important with this last method that you always add a bit of oil
> before cooking in the pan -otherwise you are cooking on dry iron.)
>
>
> Like
> > eggs will stick if no oil when cooking is used but that is true of
> > non-stick pans.. Then when eggs are done I just wipe out and use a
> > squeeze of dawn and water wash and dry them again like the before.
>
> Yes - since you use soap, you will need to replace the oil the soap takes
> off, so your seasoning method works if you replace the oil you wash off.
> My pans have never been in water and have never had any soap on them in
> my 30+ yrs of having them. (That came from some European chefs I knew who
> were all denigrating American restaurants because they washed their pans in
> soap and water.)
>
> The
> > reason, why I use cast iron I will burn regular pans to the elment or
> > spirder, lol. I'm an awesome cook, because I use what I was taught to
> > cook with, all I can say is thanks granny. I also use the old fashion
> > real enamal ware as so for the same reason.
>
> Spewaking of enamelware - An interesting thing about the old enamelware I
> have noticed, doing cooking over open fires (not open flames!) with big
> coffee pots and soup pots- if you don't scrub the enamelware with anything
> abrasive ever in its life, the smoke and soot and etc. washes off with a wet
> soapy terry rag-
> but if you use an abrasive pad even once, it then sticks forevermore and
> you are doomed to scrubbing the outside as long as you own that scrubbed
> pot.
>
>
>
> LOL I never burn a meal
> > with the real McCoys, lol. I hope this helps out?
>
> Thanx for the input - it really brought one of the seasoning methods into
> clearer focus.
>
> (Of course, I will still use MY method of seasoning :-)) )
>
> take care..
>
>
> > EM
> >Hob ty for your information, I use the dawn to make my ol' man happy, and him cooking with my cast that is an oh hell no do not go there issuse, lol. I have no idea what he cooking in my 9 inch but, I had to bury it in hot white coals from a bonfire to make it right again. We live in a house that is an 125 year old 4 bedroom farm house and it is a landmark on 120 acres,90% of the land is wood and field, the driveway is half mile deep and land on both side of the drive is hay and mice are bad where we live. From the fields and the 125 year old 4 story barn is still in very good shape that is next to the house and to the house they will come for water and cool place to live and food if they can find it. Another reason why I wash. Yes the chefs' of the world are awesome and full tons of great info, but them and most folks are not hardcore farmlife and they have state of the art kitchens .But for me I like the way I do it, because that knowledge was passed to me, from grannies and aunties and I was taught the to be taught the old ways was better than the new in alot of ways. I do very thing from hand and use their recipes and I do make my own meds with these cast irons as this is what I will pass it on. But thanks for your info, my ol man will find it useful, but I'm too old and stubborn and a hateful old growl to change my ways.

"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> hob > wrote:
> >2) all cast iron has the same specific heat (basically, how much heat per
> >pound it can hold)
>
> If that's really true, it's surprising, considering
> the chemical differences and its other differentiated
> properties.

the Materials Selector lists all of the cast irons as 0.13 specific heat

Aluminum is 0.23 (holds nearly twice as much heat as cast iron)

>
> >3) Thermal conductivity of all cast iron is within 20% of nominal. (in
other
> >words, the burner has more effect than the type of iron)
>
> Lemme check something.
>
> Thought so.
>
> The specific heat of cast iron is the same as
> steel.

No. Steel is a quarter less - around 0.10. Austenitic Stainless is closer
to cast iron - around 0.12

>
> But the thermal conductivities can be very different,
> with shiny nickel steels about 1/5th as conductive.
>

Cast iron is around 30, relative to stainless conductivity at around 9.
Thus "nickel steel" is about 1/3 of steel and cast iron.

> So the heat capacity that we all attribute to cast iron
> seems to be coming from the enormous weight of the pan.

No. Poor human perception - "it heats slower, so the heat must be stored in
the metal, therefore weight has soemthing to do with it." Incorrect
assumptions.

It conducts less, so it is less efficient at transferring heat from the
burner.

Pound for pound, aluminum holds more heat and gets hot faster because it is
more efficient at transferring burner heat from the burner -stores more,
conducts better.

> And the higher conductivity means cast iron is more capable
> of releasing its heat to the food.
>

more capable than? The higher conductivity of aluminum maens it will release
its heat faster.

> Cast iron pans are thin because cast iron can't be made
> into a pan as thin as a steel pan.
>

It can. But with more fabrciation loss - and why?

> Aluminum has about 3 times the conductivity of cast iron,
> and about 1.5 times the heat capacity, but has chemical
> reactions with food, and damages easily. Cast iron
> reacts with some foods, too, but steel doesn't.
>
> So All-Clad wrapped a thick layer of aluminum in two very
> thin layers of nickel steel. The thinness of the steel
> means its thermal properties are overwhelmed by those
> of the aluminum in determining the overall properties of
> the pan.

yes.

>
> Thus, aluminum and cast-iron pans are inferior to steel-
> sandwiched aluminum for almost all uses.
>

Only if you assume the surface of the particular metal does not affect the
cooking process, and that the oxides have the same properties as the base
metal - a false assumption.

> The cast-iron pan will still deliver a more even sear, and
> moderate an uneven heat source better, but that's because
> of its mass.

An assumption not demonstrated nor proven.

Aluminum is one third the density of cast
> iron; to have the same total heat capacity, the aluminum
> would layer have to be 2/3rds as heavy as a cast-iron pan.

Yes.


> Thus to have the same searing properties, an All-Clad pan
> would have to be twice as thick as a cast iron pan. It
> would still be lighter.
>

but it will still lack the oxide layer.

> > Cast iron is one big mass of stress concentrations, which is why it is
so
> >stable. If a casting is odd shaped and just been cast, it will warp
itself
> >stable in the first two years.
>
> Um, how does it know what the "right" shape is?

There is no "right" shape. A regualr shape relieves equally. An irregualr
shape relives unevenly.

And why don't
> more pans that look good out of the casting end up warping
> stable into odd shapes later?
>

Pans are regular. Thus the original comment that cast "cast iron" pans don't
warp.

> And do manufacturers allow pans to age for two years before
> final inspection and shipping?

No need. The pans are regular geometric shapes

>
> > However, a pan is regular and doesn't warp sitting on a shelf, and
unless
> >it is defective, you pretty much can't warp it.
>
>
> >>This done with bacon grease or lard.
> >
> >The animal fats are probably why you have to season them twice a month.
Oil
> >starts to go rancid. ( Olive oil takes longer to go bad.)
>
> Oil that's been cooked that hot shouldn't have anything left
> in it to go rancid. Your pans with the 30-year seasoning
> have a lot of animal-fat stuff in them, too.
>

what is rancid? Oxidation creating acid. Even smoked oil goes rancid.

> Two reasons I don't think animal fat is the problem.
>
> >c) creating a black-iron oxide surface on the iron by cleaning the oiled
> >surface when quite hot with a dab of water and a natural bristle brush
> > - it's creating the same oxide as the black on a gun barrel, an oxide
> >type which seals the barrel steel against red rust, The black oxide seals
> >the iron in the pan pan similar to what oxidizing does for aluminum
> >naturally.
> > (It is important with this last method that you always add a bit of
oil
> >before cooking in the pan -otherwise you are cooking on dry iron.)
>
> Sounds like a thoroughly unseasoned pan. You're
> supposed to be able to clean a seasoned pan by wiping
> it out.
>

says who? Oil-baked-to-varnish seasoning heathens, perhaps.

> > My pans have never been in water and have never had any soap on them
in
> >my 30+ yrs of having them. (That came from some European chefs I knew
who
> >were all denigrating American restaurants because they washed their pans
in
> >soap and water.)
>
> I bet they're coated with varnish. It'd be cool to see
> how thick it is. Can I saw your pan in half to get a
> cross-section?

There is NO oil residue on the cooking surfaces of my pans. None. Nada. And
smooth as a 2 mu finish. All oxide, no varnish.

And no, you can't touch my pans, you oil-to-varnish-seasoning heathen !!!

:-)

>
> --Blair

Sorry about the top post, but an afterthought to the reply post I just did

I also have had a LeCrueset set for twenty years or so, with three
skillets/pans with iron surfaces, and they are nowhere as good a cooking
surface as my regular cast iron skillets.
They are much better than the stainless skillet and the aluminum pans we
used to have, and a better browner than my commercial teflon-ceramic, but
not as good as my cast iron.

Same handling for cleaning, same foods, etc. But they never "smoothed
out" like my other cast iron pans.

fwiw.
-

"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
...
> hob > wrote:
> >2) all cast iron has the same specific heat (basically, how much heat per
> >pound it can hold)
>
> If that's really true, it's surprising, considering
> the chemical differences and its other differentiated
> properties.
>
> >3) Thermal conductivity of all cast iron is within 20% of nominal. (in
other
> >words, the burner has more effect than the type of iron)
>
> Lemme check something.
>
> Thought so.
>
> The specific heat of cast iron is the same as
> steel.
>
> But the thermal conductivities can be very different,
> with shiny nickel steels about 1/5th as conductive.
>
> So the heat capacity that we all attribute to cast iron
> seems to be coming from the enormous weight of the pan.
> And the higher conductivity means cast iron is more capable
> of releasing its heat to the food.
>
> Cast iron pans are thin because cast iron can't be made
> into a pan as thin as a steel pan.
>
> Aluminum has about 3 times the conductivity of cast iron,
> and about 1.5 times the heat capacity, but has chemical
> reactions with food, and damages easily. Cast iron
> reacts with some foods, too, but steel doesn't.
>
> So All-Clad wrapped a thick layer of aluminum in two very
> thin layers of nickel steel. The thinness of the steel
> means its thermal properties are overwhelmed by those
> of the aluminum in determining the overall properties of
> the pan.
>
> Thus, aluminum and cast-iron pans are inferior to steel-
> sandwiched aluminum for almost all uses.
>
> The cast-iron pan will still deliver a more even sear, and
> moderate an uneven heat source better, but that's because
> of its mass. Aluminum is one third the density of cast
> iron; to have the same total heat capacity, the aluminum
> would layer have to be 2/3rds as heavy as a cast-iron pan.
> Thus to have the same searing properties, an All-Clad pan
> would have to be twice as thick as a cast iron pan. It
> would still be lighter.
>
> > Cast iron is one big mass of stress concentrations, which is why it is
so
> >stable. If a casting is odd shaped and just been cast, it will warp
itself
> >stable in the first two years.
>
> Um, how does it know what the "right" shape is? And why don't
> more pans that look good out of the casting end up warping
> stable into odd shapes later?
>
> And do manufacturers allow pans to age for two years before
> final inspection and shipping?
>
> > However, a pan is regular and doesn't warp sitting on a shelf, and
unless
> >it is defective, you pretty much can't warp it.
>
>
> >>This done with bacon grease or lard.
> >
> >The animal fats are probably why you have to season them twice a month.
Oil
> >starts to go rancid. ( Olive oil takes longer to go bad.)
>
> Oil that's been cooked that hot shouldn't have anything left
> in it to go rancid. Your pans with the 30-year seasoning
> have a lot of animal-fat stuff in them, too.
>
> Two reasons I don't think animal fat is the problem.
>
> >c) creating a black-iron oxide surface on the iron by cleaning the oiled
> >surface when quite hot with a dab of water and a natural bristle brush
> > - it's creating the same oxide as the black on a gun barrel, an oxide
> >type which seals the barrel steel against red rust, The black oxide seals
> >the iron in the pan pan similar to what oxidizing does for aluminum
> >naturally.
> > (It is important with this last method that you always add a bit of
oil
> >before cooking in the pan -otherwise you are cooking on dry iron.)
>
> Sounds like a thoroughly unseasoned pan. You're
> supposed to be able to clean a seasoned pan by wiping
> it out.
>
> > My pans have never been in water and have never had any soap on them
in
> >my 30+ yrs of having them. (That came from some European chefs I knew
who
> >were all denigrating American restaurants because they washed their pans
in
> >soap and water.)
>
> I bet they're coated with varnish. It'd be cool to see
> how thick it is. Can I saw your pan in half to get a
> cross-section?
>
> --Blair

<-> wrote:
>On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:41:06 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>>Bare steel sandwiching aluminum. The good pans.
>
>How about heavy cast aluminum.

Heat very slightly better than the sandwich, but scratch
easier and react way easier.

>I have one, and it's the best skillet I"ve had, bar none!

Everybody has one of those.

--Blair

In article >,
Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

> <-> wrote:
> >On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:41:06 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
> >>Bare steel sandwiching aluminum. The good pans.
> >
> >How about heavy cast aluminum.
>
> Heat very slightly better than the sandwich, but scratch
> easier and react way easier.
>
> >I have one, and it's the best skillet I"ve had, bar none!
>
> Everybody has one of those.
>
> --Blair

I don't own _any_ aluminum cookware, and I never will.
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote:
>In article >,
> Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>> <-> wrote:
>> >On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:41:06 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
>> >>Bare steel sandwiching aluminum. The good pans.
>> >
>> >How about heavy cast aluminum.
>> >I have one, and it's the best skillet I"ve had, bar none!
>>
>> Everybody has one of those.
>
>I don't own _any_ aluminum cookware, and I never will.

I meant "best skillet I've ever had".

--Blair

hob > wrote:
>"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
m...
>> The specific heat of cast iron is the same as
>> steel.
>
>No. Steel is a quarter less - around 0.10. Austenitic Stainless is closer
>to cast iron - around 0.12

Small difference compared with the 2x-5x differences in
other properties. And in the table I was looking at, most
of the steels were the same as cast iron.

And the closeness, even just among cast irons, is still
surprising. I'm going to have to dig out my copy of
Pauling and look at the morphological basis for specific
heat. This stuff is all about bonding properties and the
varying chemical mixtures should be producing varying
thermal properties.

>> But the thermal conductivities can be very different,
>> with shiny nickel steels about 1/5th as conductive.
>
>Cast iron is around 30, relative to stainless conductivity at around 9.
>Thus "nickel steel" is about 1/3 of steel and cast iron.

Again, differing tables. Most of the nickel steels were
about 1/5th the cast irons in the ones I saw.

>> So the heat capacity that we all attribute to cast iron
>> seems to be coming from the enormous weight of the pan.
>
>No. Poor human perception - "it heats slower, so the heat must be stored in
>the metal, therefore weight has soemthing to do with it." Incorrect
>assumptions.
>
> It conducts less, so it is less efficient at transferring heat from the
>burner.

You just contradicted the numbers. You're saying cast
iron conducts less, when the conductivity is 3-5 times
that of steel.

The fact is, for the same thickness, cast iron will
conduct heat much faster, which means it will react to
changes in heat much faster. But that's not what happens.
What happens is cast iron pans are thicker than steel pans
(steel pans are made thin because they can be made durable
using much less material, which improves economics along
the entire supply chain). So the cast iron soaks up
more heat. Which is exactly what is observed.

>Pound for pound, aluminum holds more heat and gets hot faster because it is
>more efficient at transferring burner heat from the burner -stores more,
>conducts better.

This is true, but up to here, we hadn't been discussing aluminum
to this point in this post.

>> And the higher conductivity means cast iron is more capable
>> of releasing its heat to the food.
>
>more capable than? The higher conductivity of aluminum maens it will release
>its heat faster.

Again, not part of the picture yet.

>> Cast iron pans are thin because cast iron can't be made
>> into a pan as thin as a steel pan.
>
>It can. But with more fabrciation loss - and why?

That should say "Cast iron pans are THICK ..."

As for why anyone would make a thin cast-iron pan, well,
the only reason would be to get responsiveness. It would
be much more responsive than the equivalent thickness of
steel. But it's hard to make. Steel and aluminum are easy
to roll into thin plate that cna be pressed into thin pans.

>> The cast-iron pan will still deliver a more even sear, and
>> moderate an uneven heat source better, but that's because
>> of its mass.
>
>An assumption not demonstrated nor proven.

Um, you're the one assuming it's been neither demonstrated
nor proven. I think it's been demonstrated a lot over
the decades, and proved by the simple calculations here.

>> Oil that's been cooked that hot shouldn't have anything left
>> in it to go rancid. Your pans with the 30-year seasoning
>> have a lot of animal-fat stuff in them, too.
>
>what is rancid? Oxidation creating acid. Even smoked oil goes rancid.

But the point is, seasoning a pan is no different from
cooking fatty food in a pan. Using an impure oil to
season a pan shouldn't have any more repercussion than
the centuries-old technique of frying bacon in it.

>> Sounds like a thoroughly unseasoned pan. You're
>> supposed to be able to clean a seasoned pan by wiping
>> it out.
>
>says who? Oil-baked-to-varnish seasoning heathens, perhaps.

In all these years I've never seen anyone but you call
iron oxide "seasoning".

How can you tell that your pans aren't varnished?

>> I bet they're coated with varnish. It'd be cool to see
>> how thick it is. Can I saw your pan in half to get a
>> cross-section?
>
>There is NO oil residue on the cooking surfaces of my pans. None. Nada. And
>smooth as a 2 mu finish. All oxide, no varnish.
>
>And no, you can't touch my pans, you oil-to-varnish-seasoning heathen !!!

Someone should scrub off all that crusty black stuff.

--Blair

In article >,
Blair P. Houghton > wrote:

> OmManiPadmeOmelet > wrote:
> >In article >,
> > Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
> >> <-> wrote:
> >> >On Sat, 15 Jul 2006 20:41:06 GMT, Blair P. Houghton > wrote:
> >> >>Bare steel sandwiching aluminum. The good pans.
> >> >
> >> >How about heavy cast aluminum.
> >> >I have one, and it's the best skillet I"ve had, bar none!
> >>
> >> Everybody has one of those.
> >
> >I don't own _any_ aluminum cookware, and I never will.
>
> I meant "best skillet I've ever had".
>
> --Blair

Oh. :-)

Ok. Mine is my #12 Griswold.......
--
Peace!
Om

"My mother never saw the irony in calling me a Son of a bitch"
-- Jack Nicholson

"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
. ..
> hob > wrote:
> >"Blair P. Houghton" > wrote in message
> m...
> >> The specific heat of cast iron is the same as
> >> steel.
> >
> >No. Steel is a quarter less - around 0.10. Austenitic Stainless is
closer
> >to cast iron - around 0.12
>
> Small difference compared with the 2x-5x differences in
> other properties. And in the table I was looking at, most
> of the steels were the same as cast iron.
>
> And the closeness, even just among cast irons, is still
> surprising. I'm going to have to dig out my copy of
> Pauling and look at the morphological basis for specific
> heat. This stuff is all about bonding properties and the
> varying chemical mixtures should be producing varying
> thermal properties.
>
> >> But the thermal conductivities can be very different,
> >> with shiny nickel steels about 1/5th as conductive.
> >
> >Cast iron is around 30, relative to stainless conductivity at around 9.
> >Thus "nickel steel" is about 1/3 of steel and cast iron.
>
> Again, differing tables. Most of the nickel steels were
> about 1/5th the cast irons in the ones I saw.
>
> >> So the heat capacity that we all attribute to cast iron
> >> seems to be coming from the enormous weight of the pan.
> >
> >No. Poor human perception - "it heats slower, so the heat must be stored
in
> >the metal, therefore weight has soemthing to do with it." Incorrect
> >assumptions.
> >
> > It conducts less, so it is less efficient at transferring heat from the
> >burner.
>
> You just contradicted the numbers. You're saying cast
> iron conducts less, when the conductivity is 3-5 times
> that of steel.

I was referring to "fast heaters" like aluminum, vs cast iron - not
comparing steel to cast iron.

>
> The fact is, for the same thickness, cast iron will
> conduct heat much faster, which means it will react to
> changes in heat much faster. But that's not what happens.
> What happens is cast iron pans are thicker than steel pans
> (steel pans are made thin because they can be made durable
> using much less material, which improves economics along
> the entire supply chain). So the cast iron soaks up
> more heat. Which is exactly what is observed.
>
> >Pound for pound, aluminum holds more heat and gets hot faster because it
is
> >more efficient at transferring burner heat from the burner -stores more,
> >conducts better.
>
> This is true, but up to here, we hadn't been discussing aluminum
> to this point in this post.
>

I was.

> >> And the higher conductivity means cast iron is more capable
> >> of releasing its heat to the food.
> >
> >more capable than? The higher conductivity of aluminum maens it will
release
> >its heat faster.
>
> Again, not part of the picture yet.
>

For me it was, since perception is aluminum vs cast iron, not normally cast
iron vs stainless steel

> >> Cast iron pans are thin because cast iron can't be made
> >> into a pan as thin as a steel pan.
> >
> >It can. But with more fabrciation loss - and why?
>
> That should say "Cast iron pans are THICK ..."
>
> As for why anyone would make a thin cast-iron pan, well,
> the only reason would be to get responsiveness. It would
> be much more responsive than the equivalent thickness of
> steel. But it's hard to make. Steel and aluminum are easy
> to roll into thin plate that cna be pressed into thin pans.
>
> >> The cast-iron pan will still deliver a more even sear, and
> >> moderate an uneven heat source better, but that's because
> >> of its mass.
> >
> >An assumption not demonstrated nor proven.
>
> Um, you're the one assuming it's been neither demonstrated
> nor proven. I think it's been demonstrated a lot over
> the decades, and proved by the simple calculations here.

You say because of its "mass" - I can moderate the heat with any material by
using enough mass, not only cast iron mass.
And you assumed it was the mass of cast iron

>
> >> Oil that's been cooked that hot shouldn't have anything left
> >> in it to go rancid. Your pans with the 30-year seasoning
> >> have a lot of animal-fat stuff in them, too.
> >
> >what is rancid? Oxidation creating acid. Even smoked oil goes rancid.
>
> But the point is, seasoning a pan is no different from
> cooking fatty food in a pan.

By method one (oil wipe) . The second method of seasoning (oil bake)
requires sufficient time for the oil to turn to varnish. Cooking fatty food
does not oxidize the surface film.
..

>Using an impure oil to
> season a pan shouldn't have any more repercussion than
> the centuries-old technique of frying bacon in it.
>
> >> Sounds like a thoroughly unseasoned pan. You're
> >> supposed to be able to clean a seasoned pan by wiping
> >> it out.
> >
> >says who? Oil-baked-to-varnish seasoning heathens, perhaps.
> erric oxides, or identify the oxidized oil
> In all these years I've never seen anyone but you call
> iron oxide "seasoning".
>

Have you ever seen any quantification of ironware seasoning before?

I would also daresay you had not heard the black iron on cast iron referred
to as ferrous oxide before now, either, even though it's as obvious as hide
on a cow..

Or recognized that that seasoning a pan with oil and heat results in the
very same compound as old fashioned paint, even though it's as obvious as
the same hide.

In all your years, you have probably not discussed energy density fractures
or n-dimensional membrane theory, either.

Most cooks do not have the background to identify and quantify many things.
That does not mean it does not exist, or that their magical explanations of
present and sufficient use are correct..

> How can you tell that your pans aren't varnished?

I sure as hell can tell a varnished surface from a non-varnished surface and
from oxide - in my sleep.

>
> >> I bet they're coated with varnish. It'd be cool to see
> >> how thick it is. Can I saw your pan in half to get a
> >> cross-section?
> >
> >There is NO oil residue on the cooking surfaces of my pans. None. Nada.
And
> >smooth as a 2 mu finish. All oxide, no varnish.
> >
> >And no, you can't touch my pans, you oil-to-varnish-seasoning heathen
!!!
>
> Someone should scrub off all that crusty black stuff.
>

no crusty black stuff on my pans- it is all very smooth black stuff

> --Blair

hob > wrote:
>
>In all your years, you have probably not discussed energy density fractures
>or n-dimensional membrane theory, either.

Don't bet on it.

>> How can you tell that your pans aren't varnished?
>
>I sure as hell can tell a varnished surface from a non-varnished surface and
>from oxide - in my sleep.

You're dreaming.

--Blair