"Fred" > wrote in message
et...
:
: "Don B" > wrote in message
: om...
: > Hi, is anyone familiar with KitchenCraft cookware? My wife
has put
: > down a deposit to buy a set of this cookware that she saw
demonstrated
: > at our local fair. It comes with a lifetime warranty but does
it cook
: > any better than anything else? Is it worth the cost for what
you get?
: >
<snip>

: > Don
:
: Don the problem isn't the product. It is method of sale and
distribution.
: I have no experience with the cookware personally but I can
tell you that
: the method of distribution and sale is very expensive so you
will always pay
: more than you would pay for a similar product sold in a more
efficient
: manner.
:

<snip>

: Fred
:=========

Why THANK YOU Fred!! That is the EXACT point I was talking about
last week... the product is great but due to the sales
distribution the prices can be outrageous. Of course, that is
why I had originally recommended to a different poster (over on
r.f.c. and I think I said it to Don, as well...) that there are
several sellers at E-Bay that sell Waterless VERY affordably.
The reason being they don't do the demos and aren't trying to
sell 1 set of pots and pans while collecting commissions for 5 +
people!

<snipping what I just wrote to keep my blood pressure under
control>

Cyndi

"Rick & Cyndi" > wrote in message
news:5xZdb.629784$YN5.453312@sccrnsc01...
> "Fred" > wrote in message
> et...
> :
> : "Don B" > wrote in message
> : om...
> : > Hi, is anyone familiar with KitchenCraft cookware? My wife
> has put
> : > down a deposit to buy a set of this cookware that she saw
> demonstrated
> : > at our local fair. It comes with a lifetime warranty but does
> it cook
> : > any better than anything else? Is it worth the cost for what
> you get?
> : >
> <snip>
>
> : > Don
> :
> : Don the problem isn't the product. It is method of sale and
> distribution.
> : I have no experience with the cookware personally but I can
> tell you that
> : the method of distribution and sale is very expensive so you
> will always pay
> : more than you would pay for a similar product sold in a more
> efficient
> : manner.
> :
>
> <snip>
>
> : Fred
> :=========
>
> Why THANK YOU Fred!! That is the EXACT point I was talking about
> last week... the product is great but due to the sales
> distribution the prices can be outrageous. Of course, that is
> why I had originally recommended to a different poster (over on
> r.f.c. and I think I said it to Don, as well...) that there are
> several sellers at E-Bay that sell Waterless VERY affordably.
> The reason being they don't do the demos and aren't trying to
> sell 1 set of pots and pans while collecting commissions for 5 +
> people!
>

The price is only one issue here. I have looked at a number of sites of
manufacturers of this stuff. It is basically multi-ply cookware like
All-Clad. There is nothing that I can see that would make it any more
waterless or oil-less than other SS cookware. In fact, nearly every person
who complains about it says that food sticks to it. That would be
consistent with trying to cook in a SS pan without any oil or water. The
way that the pans are sold is not only expensive but it relies on making
false and deceptive claims to coerce people into buying the stuff and
justify the exorbitant price. I disagree that the product isn't part of
the problem. Apparently it doesn't perform as advertised. It may be as
good as cookware that costs less and doesn't claim that it saves energy,
improves your heath, cleans better than other cookware, and can be use
without water or oil. The problem is that it is faulty with respect to the
claims made about its features and benefits. That is costs a small fortune
due to the method of distribution only adds insult to injury.

"Vox Humana"

<snip>
:
: The price is only one issue here. I have looked at a number of
sites of
: manufacturers of this stuff. It is basically multi-ply
cookware like
: All-Clad. There is nothing that I can see that would make it
any more
: waterless or oil-less than other SS cookware. In fact, nearly
every person
: who complains about it says that food sticks to it. That would
be
: consistent with trying to cook in a SS pan without any oil or
water. The
: way that the pans are sold is not only expensive but it relies
on making
: false and deceptive claims to coerce people into buying the
stuff and
: justify the exorbitant price. I disagree that the product
isn't part of
: the problem. Apparently it doesn't perform as advertised. It
may be as
: good as cookware that costs less and doesn't claim that it
saves energy,
: improves your heath, cleans better than other cookware, and can
be use
: without water or oil. The problem is that it is faulty with
respect to the
: claims made about its features and benefits. That is costs a
small fortune
: due to the method of distribution only adds insult to injury.
:
===========

So "who" is complaining about Waterless cookware sticking? I
have it and have NEVER had a problem with sticking... and as I
have REPEATEDLY stated, I did NOT pay a fortune for it because I
bought mine from a non-demo source. I have yet to see any faulty
claims...

I have it, I use it, and KNOW first-hand how the cookware
performs... perfectly!

What I really dislike about these Waterless threads is all of
the negative statements from people that have never even cooked
with the cookware. If you don't know FROM YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE -
then friggin' say so and quit talking out your asses! I am sick
and tired of people using superior tones about shit they don't
know a damn thing about! If you DON'T KNOW then don't try to
pass it off as though you do.

Cyndi
<Remove a "b" to reply>

"Rick & Cyndi" > wrote in message
news:gD%db.630388$YN5.454266@sccrnsc01...
> "Vox Humana"
> ===========
>
> So "who" is complaining about Waterless cookware sticking?

I posted some messages where people complained about the sticking problem.
If there was something different about the cookware I might be able to give
it the benefit of the doubt. I did look at at least three website that
discussed the construction of the pans. They all were SS with anywhere from
two to five sheets of metal bonded between the inner and outer SS layers. I
don't see how that would make them any more or less waterless, oilless,
easier to clean, or less sticky than other similarly constructed cookware.
If you know please tell me. I also gave examples of how people were given
high pressure sales pitches and when they weren't satisfied the company was
unwilling to take the merchandise back. At least two of the messages that I
posted said that the handles on their cookware were always loose. One
message related how the sales pitch cited false and misleading information
about other cookware to position the waterless cookware in a better light.

You can find lots of opinions about this stuff online. Even the lower
priced ($699.00!!!!) set of Neova cookware got a bad review at Epinons --
Too expensive for the quality was the conclusion. The stuff had phenolic
handles. You can't put that under the broiler or in a very hot oven. Sure,
some people liked it. There is a tendency for people to like things once
they have plunked down $700 for some off-brand pots. No one wants to admit
to being taken. Furthermore, many people just don't do their research and
don't know that they could achieve the same thing in a far less expensive
set of cookware.
------------
From Epinions.com

I decided to give this cookware a trial period .
I followed all the directions and cleaned and seasoned the pots according to
the directions.
It was too hard for our family anyways to get used to.
The manufactuer recommends that you cook only on low setting . My husband
did not have the patience I wasn't any better cooking took forever.
Simple things that took me usually 20 minutes to cook were now taking
between 2 and 3 hours.To us it wasn't worth it we don't have that kind of
time.

I did not notice a big diffrence in the taste of the food either in terms of
flavor in their brochure they state that things are more flaverful and
healthy.
It was a nice sized set though everything that you could possibly need and
more.
On a postive note I did notice that when food was burned in the pots they
did clean up nice and looked as good as new.
But for the price I was disappointed I expected alot more than I recived.One
of the plastic circles on the lids broke immed after being accidently
dropped on a vinyl floor so I expected better quality for the price.

Cooking became a chore after using these pots and pans so I sent them back
they were too pricey for us anyways so that made me feel better.
I was out of the shipping and handling though after the trial period, but it
was nice to experience the product and than have the option of returning the
product if you were not satisfied how many companys offer a trial like
that.Few if any.If your curious I suggest you try the set worst case you can
return it mabey you will have a better experience than me.


The set was avaliable in one full payment or in installments with the
installments there is a $15.00 non returnable service fee they state s/h is
free to deliver and they throw in a cook book but we all know better than
that don't we.
I guess I should mention that I cooked on a electric smooth top stove.


Recommended
No

Amount Paid (US$): 699.00

"Vox Humana" & Cyndi" chatted about Waterless

<snip>

Well... I have the distinct advantage of being a former salesman
of Waterless cookware back in the 80s - but it was for a short
time because I didn't like the way the way they were priced and I
wasn't going to try to force somebody to pay for something that
even I couldn't afford. I was one of those few, hard to find
salesman that refused to do those hard sales...! I treated
everyone the way I would want to be treated. Period! By the
same time, I vowed that if I ever could get the cookware at a
decent price I would do it - in a heartbeat!

Many years later, I found that there were/are several sellers on
E-Bay that sell it for only $200.00 I got them and I love them.
I've never had any problems with mine and every set that I've
seen (by various companies) have great warrantees (sp?)... any of
those people that complained about loose handles (or anything
else) should have contacted either their sales rep or the
specific company and I'm willing to bet those pieces would have
been replaced.

Waterless cookware is similar to anything else you want to buy,
in the sense that you have to shop around. You can buy a
spoonrest at some fancy-schmancy store for $ 20.00 and you can
buy one that probably looks the same at Wal-Mart for $3.00 . The
name on the underside will be different but the construction and
quality are most likely similar. My $200. set of cookware looks
pretty close to the same thing I sold in the 80s which had a
price of... IIRC $ 1147.00 !! ... the steam release valve and
the brand name are different but it performs exactly the same.
The big difference was back then, I went into somebody's home and
showed the cookware. If they bought it 5 people in the office
made a commission... the set I bought @ E-bay paid the one person
I bought it from (and technically, the manufacturer she got it
from). With "KitchenCraft" you're paying for the guy to get a
booth (or amphitheatre) at an event and paying for his commission
and several of the people above him, at his home office... The
price bites because you're not "just" paying for the cookware.

--
Cyndi
<Remove a "b" to reply>

"Rick & Cyndi" > wrote in news:c51eb.372991
:

>
> "Vox Humana" & Cyndi" chatted about Waterless
>
> <snip>
>
> Well... I have the distinct advantage of being a former salesman
> of Waterless cookware back in the 80s - but it was for a short
> time because I didn't like the way the way they were priced and I
> wasn't going to try to force somebody to pay for something that
> even I couldn't afford. I was one of those few, hard to find
> salesman that refused to do those hard sales...! I treated
> everyone the way I would want to be treated. Period! By the
> same time, I vowed that if I ever could get the cookware at a
> decent price I would do it - in a heartbeat!
>
> Many years later, I found that there were/are several sellers on
> E-Bay that sell it for only $200.00 I got them and I love them.
> I've never had any problems with mine and every set that I've
> seen (by various companies) have great warrantees (sp?)... any of
> those people that complained about loose handles (or anything
> else) should have contacted either their sales rep or the
> specific company and I'm willing to bet those pieces would have
> been replaced.
>
> Waterless cookware is similar to anything else you want to buy,
> in the sense that you have to shop around. You can buy a
> spoonrest at some fancy-schmancy store for $ 20.00 and you can
> buy one that probably looks the same at Wal-Mart for $3.00 . The
> name on the underside will be different but the construction and
> quality are most likely similar. My $200. set of cookware looks
> pretty close to the same thing I sold in the 80s which had a
> price of... IIRC $ 1147.00 !! ... the steam release valve and
> the brand name are different but it performs exactly the same.
> The big difference was back then, I went into somebody's home and
> showed the cookware. If they bought it 5 people in the office
> made a commission... the set I bought @ E-bay paid the one person
> I bought it from (and technically, the manufacturer she got it
> from). With "KitchenCraft" you're paying for the guy to get a
> booth (or amphitheatre) at an event and paying for his commission
> and several of the people above him, at his home office... The
> price bites because you're not "just" paying for the cookware.
>

Cyndi,

In support of Vox, I have two bones to pick with what you are saying.

1. The construction and physical characteristics of waterless cookware.

You have never explained why this cookware you used to sell (or the
current versions) are in any way better than any of the many brands of
good-quality cookware that have stainless steel cooking surfaces, bottoms
that are sufficiently thick (according to the material used) to heat
evenly, and tight lids. How is "waterless" cookware different and
better? Don't repeat yourself about vitamins and taste (results), tell
us how the construction is different/better than other good-quality
cookware.

2. Cooking techniques that retain flavor and vitamins.

You have never explained why nuking in the microwave is not equivalent to
"waterless" cooking. Come on, say why using the same amount of water in
a covered vessel, heated to the same extent, to cook the same amount of
vegetables would give different results depending on whether a) the heat
source that turns the water to steam was a burner and the surface on
which the vegetables rest is stainless steel or b) the heat source that
turns the water to steam is microwaves and the surface on which the
vegetables rest is glass or ceramic or plastic. Are you saying that
steam created by conducted heat is different from steam created by
directly exciting the water molecules? Are you saying that the
difference affects the retention of vitamins? (Remember that microwaves
work because their frequency matches up with water molecules.) Are you
saying that stainless steel, which is supposed to not react with food,
gives different flavor results than glass or ceramic, which also are not
supposed to react with food?

Along these lines it is not at all clear to me that you loose less
vitamins by cooking that the boiling point than you do at, say, normal
oven temperatures. Can you cite any scientific analysis to back up the
claim about retaining more vitamins because the vegetables are being
steamed instead of sauteed, roasted, or grilled?

The last observation that I will make in support of Vox's comments has to
do with claims. You constantly compare "waterless" cooking with some
worst case - the sort of case that one hopes and expects is really rare.
Sales people are (sometimes) trained to do that. But one hopes that few
people cook their veggies with 1/2 stick of butter or drown them in water
before boiling them to death, and very, very, few people do not have a
microwave. No doubt there are a few bad examples like that out there,
but the arguments that you are making are most effective with the most
gullible audience that doesn't know much about cooking techniques and is
willing to accept assertions such as yours without any experience that
tells them otherwise. Combine that with your refusal to admit that other
cooking methods might give similar results without requiring special
"waterless" cookware, and I think that Vox has plenty of good reason to
say what she has.

Debbie

P.S.If you really want to get good flavor, you are best off using at
least a little fat. Not oceans, but at least a small amount, depending
on the cooking method. Some chemicals that give flavor dissolve in
oil/fat and not in water. This will carry the flavors of herbs and
spices and help spread it through the dish. Further, if you want nice,
intense flavors, try roasting or grilling your veggies. That takes
waterless cooking one step further; instead of losing flavor to water
that is poured down the drain, you are actually removing water from the
food and intensifying its flavor.

--
Anti-spam advisory: The email address used to post this article is a
throw-away address. It will be invalidated and replaced with another if
and when it is found by spammers.

"Rick & Cyndi" > wrote in message
. net...

> Well... I have the distinct advantage of being a former salesman
> of Waterless cookware back in the 80s - but it was for a short
> time because I didn't like the way the way they were priced and I
> wasn't going to try to force somebody to pay for something that
> even I couldn't afford.

You keep missing the point. If this stuff was so great why wouldn't a
reputable company manufacture and sell in in a more conventional manner?
Why, until the advent of ebay, could this cookware only be sold through a
demo/hardsell approach? If it can't stand up to the regular rigors of the
marketplace then how good can it be? If junk like Calphalon can be sold
conventionally but this stuff can't, well . . .

And for the record, just a few months ago I was at my county fair and sat
through the demo and tasted the food. There was nothing wrong with the food
but it was nothing so special about it to change how I cook.

Rich