arminius wrote:
> "gringogirl" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> www.numbersusa.com click on urban sprawl in left hand column
> Between 1982 and 1997 America converted approximately 25 million acres
> (39,000 square miles) of rural land - forests, rangeland, pastures,
> cropland, and wetlands - to developed land: that is, sub-divisions,
> freeways, factories, strip malls, airports, and the like.
>
> Over a 20-year period (1970-1990), the 100 largest Urbanized Areas in
> the United States sprawled out over an additional 14,545 square miles.
> That was more than 9 million acres of
>
> · natural habitats,
> · farmland
> · and other rural space that were covered over by the asphalt,
> buildings and sub-divisions of suburbia. And that was just for the half
> of Americans who live in those 100 cities.
>
> Americans have become increasingly alarmed, making urban sprawl one of
> the nation's hottest political issues.
>
> The Chamber of Commerce is still shaking pom-poms and proclaiming "growth is
> good".
> Anything for a quick buck.
>
> Hank
>
>
One of the main reasons for Urban Sprawl is the fact that people WANT
it. That is the main reason it is so popular. I have lived in high
density areas in the past. I now live in a low density area. We have
no apartments and no high rises where we live on the North Shore of Lake
Travis. This is an area that was first developed over thirty years ago,
but is growing fairly rapidly. Much of our shopping is done in areas
that you would consider "sprawl:. We have few, if any, reasons to visit
the central city except occasionally.

I have lived and worked in a number of high density areas over the
years, including places like NYC and Toronto. I have visited and worked
in most of the major population centers in this country on business.
When my wife and I prepared for my retirement in 1995, we spent several
of the preceding years visiting a number of areas to see where we'd like
to live.

We quickly ruled out the high density areas.

We enjoy our quality of life much better now than when we were living in
high density. You and the elitists "city designer" types may keep it.

Also, don't be surprised if many others feel the same way we do.

Regards...

Tom

"arminius" <richard > wrote in message
>
> The Chamber of Commerce is still shaking pom-poms and proclaiming "growth
> is
> good".
> Anything for a quick buck.
>

Right, to avoid growth the government should euthanise people over 60 and
sterilize people over 21.

"gringogirl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
www.numbersusa.com click on urban sprawl in left hand column
Between 1982 and 1997 America converted approximately 25 million acres
(39,000 square miles) of rural land - forests, rangeland, pastures,
cropland, and wetlands - to developed land: that is, sub-divisions,
freeways, factories, strip malls, airports, and the like.

Over a 20-year period (1970-1990), the 100 largest Urbanized Areas in
the United States sprawled out over an additional 14,545 square miles.
That was more than 9 million acres of

· natural habitats,
· farmland
· and other rural space that were covered over by the asphalt,
buildings and sub-divisions of suburbia. And that was just for the half
of Americans who live in those 100 cities.

Americans have become increasingly alarmed, making urban sprawl one of
the nation's hottest political issues.

The Chamber of Commerce is still shaking pom-poms and proclaiming "growth is
good".
Anything for a quick buck.

Hank

arminius wrote:
>
> "gringogirl" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> www.numbersusa.com click on urban sprawl in left hand column
> Between 1982 and 1997 America converted approximately 25 million acres
> (39,000 square miles) of rural land - forests, rangeland, pastures,
> cropland, and wetlands - to developed land: that is, sub-divisions,
> freeways, factories, strip malls, airports, and the like.
>
> Over a 20-year period (1970-1990), the 100 largest Urbanized Areas in
> the United States sprawled out over an additional 14,545 square miles.
> That was more than 9 million acres of
>
> · natural habitats,
> · farmland
> · and other rural space that were covered over by the asphalt,

[snip]

Do you know what this means?

Buy stock in asphalt companies.

--
Paul Hovnanian
------------------------------------------------------------------
"The beauty of a chainsaw is that you don't have to start it. Just
show up with it." - Joe Walsh, on checking in to hotels

tom spillman wrote:
> We enjoy our quality of life much better now than when we were living in
> high density. You and the elitists "city designer" types may keep it.
>
> Also, don't be surprised if many others feel the same way we do.

Agreed, I'd live out in what some of my peers regard as the boonies /
BFE because I don't have a need for the clubs, "fine" shopping, "fine"
dining, etc. that many label as draws for high density areas. However,
I do have a need for jobs and there aren't many high paying jobs outside
of the city. As soon as I no longer need a job I will be sure to try
and relocate somewhere quiet/peaceful/slow as long as it offers
broadband and cable.

PS: I know Austin doesn't have fine dining and fine shopping compared to
larger cities, no need to debate that point with me.


--
gorf

arminius wrote:
> Americans have become increasingly alarmed, making urban sprawl one of
> the nation's hottest political issues.
>

I have yet to hear anyone give a definition of what "sprawl" is and
what it is not.
Or to state what an optimal desired population density per square mile
would be.

Sprawl, like "sustainability" is just a buzzword used by left-wing nuts
to agitate for ever increasing goverment control and reduction of
individual freedom in the name of "planning".

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> arminius wrote:
> > Americans have become increasingly alarmed, making urban sprawl one of
> > the nation's hottest political issues.
> >
>
> I have yet to hear anyone give a definition of what "sprawl" is and
> what it is not.
> Or to state what an optimal desired population density per square mile
> would be.
>
> Sprawl, like "sustainability" is just a buzzword used by left-wing nuts
> to agitate for ever increasing goverment control and reduction of
> individual freedom in the name of "planning".
>

Sprawl is like porn, you know it when you see it.

For me, sprawl becomes obscene when it starts fragmenting wildlife movement,
and introducing alien species of plants and animals.

You might call me a "left-wing nut", but if assisting developers through
subsidies in the way of utilities and free infrastructure isn't a form of
welfare, I don't know what is. Name one place where sprawl, and "increasing
the tax base" has actually brought down taxes and I'll move there.

Alan
Charlotte, NC (a poster child for sprawl)

Alan wrote:

> You might call me a "left-wing nut",

OK

>but if assisting developers
> through subsidies in the way of utilities and free infrastructure
> isn't a form of welfare, I don't know what is.

Actually, most jurisdictions require the developer to not only pay for the
infrastructure to be developed, but to pay impact fees to schools and other
public utilities for every housing unit built. And of course this total cost
is passed onto the home buyer as part of the home's purchase cost.

> Name one place where
> sprawl, and "increasing the tax base" has actually brought down taxes
> and I'll move there.

Las Vegas. East Wenatchee, WA. Seattle. Portland. etc. etc........ Start
packing :-)

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:02:42 GMT, "Alan"
> wrote:

>
> wrote in message
roups.com...
>>
>> arminius wrote:
>> > Americans have become increasingly alarmed, making urban sprawl one of
>> > the nation's hottest political issues.
>> >
>>
>> I have yet to hear anyone give a definition of what "sprawl" is and
>> what it is not.
>> Or to state what an optimal desired population density per square mile
>> would be.
>>
>> Sprawl, like "sustainability" is just a buzzword used by left-wing nuts
>> to agitate for ever increasing goverment control and reduction of
>> individual freedom in the name of "planning".
>>
>
>Sprawl is like porn, you know it when you see it.

And Playboy is like Hustler, right?

>For me, sprawl becomes obscene when it starts fragmenting wildlife movement,
>and introducing alien species of plants and animals.

This would doom the purse Yorkies of Plam Springs...

>You might call me a "left-wing nut", but if assisting developers through
>subsidies in the way of utilities and free infrastructure isn't a form of
>welfare, I don't know what is.

Gee..it also builds local property tax revenues...

>Name one place where sprawl, and "increasing
>the tax base" has actually brought down taxes and I'll move there.

Name one place where it has not increased services and infrastructure.

>Alan
>Charlotte, NC (a poster child for sprawl)

Sprawl without zoning is like a brat with no beer.

"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
...
>
> Actually, most jurisdictions require the developer to not only pay for the
> infrastructure to be developed, but to pay impact fees to schools and
other
> public utilities for every housing unit built. And of course this total
cost
> is passed onto the home buyer as part of the home's purchase cost.

Actually, the impact fees, if paid, are only a token amount of the total
expense. We still don't have impact fees here in most cities and towns in
NC. If you're a developer here you can expect the county and state to pay
for half your road costs and Duke Energy to run power to your sites...even
if it means across the neighboring farmer's land....unless he hires a lawyer
or stands out in the field with a shot gun.

>
> > Name one place where
> > sprawl, and "increasing the tax base" has actually brought down taxes
> > and I'll move there.
>
> Las Vegas. East Wenatchee, WA. Seattle. Portland. etc. etc........ Start
> packing :-)

As in the case of Portland, many of the cities you cite have limitations
controlling sprawl. Charlotte is a poster child of sprawl and encourages
unbridled development, Portland is the poster child for limiting sprawl :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_growth_boundary . If Portland's taxes
property taxes have fallen then you have just helped to prove my argument
that sprawl increases taxes. I'll read up on your other examples.

Alan

"ef_hutterite" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:02:42 GMT, "Alan"

>
> Name one place where it has not increased services and infrastructure.

My home city. The roads are a mess and the air averages 4% over the EPA
unhealthy threshold.

>
> >Alan
> >Charlotte, NC (a poster child for sprawl)

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:47:15 GMT, "Alan"
> wrote:

>
>
>"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Actually, most jurisdictions require the developer to not only pay for the
>> infrastructure to be developed, but to pay impact fees to schools and
>other
>> public utilities for every housing unit built. And of course this total
>cost
>> is passed onto the home buyer as part of the home's purchase cost.
>
>Actually, the impact fees, if paid, are only a token amount of the total
>expense. We still don't have impact fees here in most cities and towns in
>NC. If you're a developer here you can expect the county and state to pay
>for half your road costs and Duke Energy to run power to your sites...even
>if it means across the neighboring farmer's land....unless he hires a lawyer
>or stands out in the field with a shot gun.

But is that what they do before or after they sell out to developers?

>> > Name one place where
>> > sprawl, and "increasing the tax base" has actually brought down taxes
>> > and I'll move there.
>>
>> Las Vegas. East Wenatchee, WA. Seattle. Portland. etc. etc........ Start
>> packing :-)
>
>As in the case of Portland, many of the cities you cite have limitations
>controlling sprawl. Charlotte is a poster child of sprawl and encourages
>unbridled development, Portland is the poster child for limiting sprawl :
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_growth_boundary . If Portland's taxes
>property taxes have fallen then you have just helped to prove my argument
>that sprawl increases taxes.

Eh?

Could it be that with more citizens in total the PER CAPITA property
tax rate has diminished?

Think.

> I'll read up on your other examples.
>
>Alan
>

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:49:18 GMT, "Alan"
> wrote:

>
>
>
>"ef_hutterite" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:02:42 GMT, "Alan"
>
>>
>> Name one place where it has not increased services and infrastructure.
>
>My home city.

Ya sure about that?

There aren't more stores, schools, stoplights, post offices, etc?

>The roads are a mess and the air averages 4% over the EPA
>unhealthy threshold.

Roads tend to lag anywhere there is rapid growth and air quality is a
raw measure of total emissions AND inversion propensity.

"ef_hutterite" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:47:15 GMT, "Alan"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
> >
> >Actually, the impact fees, if paid, are only a token amount of the total
> >expense. We still don't have impact fees here in most cities and towns in
> >NC. If you're a developer here you can expect the county and state to pay
> >for half your road costs and Duke Energy to run power to your
sites...even
> >if it means across the neighboring farmer's land....unless he hires a
lawyer
> >or stands out in the field with a shot gun.
>
> But is that what they do before or after they sell out to developers?

After. I know personally. I have some land I am restricting through a land
conservancy. A neighbor sold his 90 acres to a developer. Next thing I know,
the utility company all but demanded me to sign a sheet authorizing them to
cut a right-of-way through the middle of my 150 year old oak forest. The
only way I got them, and the other utility people, off my back was to
threaten a lawsuit which would delay the developer's progress. The developer
persuaded the neighbor across the stree to let them run the lines across his
property.

>
> >> > Name one place where
> >> > sprawl, and "increasing the tax base" has actually brought down taxes
> >> > and I'll move there.
> >>
> >> Las Vegas. East Wenatchee, WA. Seattle. Portland. etc. etc........
Start
> >> packing :-)
> >
> >As in the case of Portland, many of the cities you cite have limitations
> >controlling sprawl. Charlotte is a poster child of sprawl and encourages
> >unbridled development, Portland is the poster child for limiting sprawl :
> >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_growth_boundary . If Portland's taxes
> >property taxes have fallen then you have just helped to prove my argument
> >that sprawl increases taxes.
>
> Eh?
>
> Could it be that with more citizens in total the PER CAPITA property
> tax rate has diminished?

Could it be higher density is less expensive for infrastructure than sprawl?
It costs the same to run a sewer line down a street that has 100 people or
5. You collect more taxes from 100 people.

>
> Think.

Here's an article that came out just today in our local Observer:
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/observer/15070108.htm

Rarely a week goes by we don't have similar articles.

Alan

ef_hutterite wrote:

> Think.

kOoK-kOo ef_hutterite of the Alien Abduction Anal Probing Fame...


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authors

"ef_hutterite" > wrote in message > >>
> >> Name one place where it has not increased services and infrastructure.
> >
> >My home city.
>
> Ya sure about that?
>
> There aren't more stores, schools, stoplights, post offices, etc?

How many Targets And Wal Marts do you need? We've got plenty to go around.

The other week I caught two guys walking out of my store with $800 dollars
worth of merchandise. I followed them out to their truck, got a description
and license tag. I even had witnesses watch. I thought that would be enough.
Wrong. In the words of our local police, " We're too busy to worry about
such small stuff". He said, "next time" I should just stop them myself,
whatever that means. I guess it means I'm supposed to chase them down and
take matters into my own hands. That's such a different tune from what I
heard when I grew up.

>
> >The roads are a mess and the air averages 4% over the EPA
> >unhealthy threshold.
>
> Roads tend to lag anywhere there is rapid growth and air quality is a
> raw measure of total emissions AND inversion propensity.

And, still our taxes soar.

Portland is looking better and better.

Alan

On 19 Jul 2006 13:25:01 -0700,
wrote:

>Alien

Steve, get ahold of yourself man!

Here - read this entire website and never bother me for kooko
entertainment links again:

http://www.zetatalk.com/

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:28:51 GMT, "Alan"
> wrote:

>"ef_hutterite" > wrote in message > >>
>> >> Name one place where it has not increased services and infrastructure.
>> >
>> >My home city.
>>
>> Ya sure about that?
>>
>> There aren't more stores, schools, stoplights, post offices, etc?
>
>How many Targets And Wal Marts do you need? We've got plenty to go around.

Just enough to make the drive real short.

>The other week I caught two guys walking out of my store with $800 dollars
>worth of merchandise. I followed them out to their truck, got a description
>and license tag. I even had witnesses watch. I thought that would be enough.
>Wrong. In the words of our local police, " We're too busy to worry about
>such small stuff". He said, "next time" I should just stop them myself,
>whatever that means. I guess it means I'm supposed to chase them down and
>take matters into my own hands. That's such a different tune from what I
>heard when I grew up.

Sad, I'd put that in the local papers and TV and get some action if it
were me.

>> >The roads are a mess and the air averages 4% over the EPA
>> >unhealthy threshold.
>>
>> Roads tend to lag anywhere there is rapid growth and air quality is a
>> raw measure of total emissions AND inversion propensity.
>
>And, still our taxes soar.

Lagging indicator.

>Portland is looking better and better.

Well, if ya don't mind a lot cooler climate, it's a pretty town.

Salting the slugs can be amusing too.

Alan wrote:

> Actually, the impact fees, if paid, are only a token amount of the
> total expense. We still don't have impact fees here in most cities
> and towns in NC. If you're a developer here you can expect the county
> and state to pay for half your road costs and Duke Energy to run
> power to your sites...even if it means across the neighboring
> farmer's land....unless he hires a lawyer or stands out in the field
> with a shot gun.

Having lived in NC, I know your statements are BS. Self evident in the
hyperbole is your statement indicating infringement on private land, unless
there is a covenated right-of-way.

> As in the case of Portland, many of the cities you cite have
> limitations controlling sprawl.

No, they don't. They have very specific planning regulations that govern the
permitting process, but they DO NOT limit housing development.

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_growth_boundary . If Portland's
> taxes property taxes have fallen then you have just helped to prove
> my argument that sprawl increases taxes.

Yeah, that sentence makes all sorts of sense.

Wikipedia, that's what we should all rely on as a factual basis to support
your claims. Let's see now, who has actually developed property in each of
the examples I've provided? How's about going through the building
permitting processes in each jurisdiction? Oh, you haven't? Well, that makes
one of us that knows what he's talking about.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

Alan wrote:
> After. I know personally. I have some land I am restricting through a
> land conservancy. A neighbor sold his 90 acres to a developer. Next
> thing I know, the utility company all but demanded me to sign a sheet
> authorizing them to cut a right-of-way through the middle of my 150
> year old oak forest. The only way I got them, and the other utility
> people, off my back was to threaten a lawsuit which would delay the
> developer's progress. The developer persuaded the neighbor across the
> stree to let them run the lines across his property.

So, the utility couldn't "force" its way through your property. Gee, that
proves your point.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

In article >,
ef_hutterite > wrote:
>
>Salting the slugs can be amusing too.
>

Get yourself one of those 6 volt Ray-o-Vac's too.

Then you've got Salt *and* Battery.

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:51:46 -0700, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote:

>Alan wrote:
>> After. I know personally. I have some land I am restricting through a
>> land conservancy. A neighbor sold his 90 acres to a developer. Next
>> thing I know, the utility company all but demanded me to sign a sheet
>> authorizing them to cut a right-of-way through the middle of my 150
>> year old oak forest. The only way I got them, and the other utility
>> people, off my back was to threaten a lawsuit which would delay the
>> developer's progress. The developer persuaded the neighbor across the
>> stree to let them run the lines across his property.
>
>So, the utility couldn't "force" its way through your property. Gee, that
>proves your point.

Heh...wonder what easements he has and doesn't knowabout...

ef_hutterite wrote:

> Heh...wonder what easements he has and doesn't knowabout...

:-) He needs to look it up on Wikipedia.

--
Dave
www.davebbq.com

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:58:33 -0700, "Dave Bugg" >
wrote:

>ef_hutterite wrote:
>
>> Heh...wonder what easements he has and doesn't knowabout...
>
>:-) He needs to look it up on Wikipedia.

<G>

On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 20:28:51 GMT, "Alan"
> wrote:


>And, still our taxes soar.
>
>Portland is looking better and better.

Nah, you need a limited government kinda place. Haiti would be good.
Non-existant taxes. No traffic jams since there are no roads and the
people are too poor to afford any anyway. Real "law of the jungle".
And since guns are illegal, it really is "survival of the fittest".
Get a big, sharp machete.

Somalia would be a second choice, much the same as Haiti, but you have
to pray to mohammed. Don't and the religious police will chop your
head off.

"Dave Bugg" > wrote in message
...
> Alan wrote:
>
> > Actually, the impact fees, if paid, are only a token amount of the
> > total expense. We still don't have impact fees here in most cities
> > and towns in NC. If you're a developer here you can expect the county
> > and state to pay for half your road costs and Duke Energy to run
> > power to your sites...even if it means across the neighboring
> > farmer's land....unless he hires a lawyer or stands out in the field
> > with a shot gun.
>
> Having lived in NC, I know your statements are BS. Self evident in the
> hyperbole is your statement indicating infringement on private land,
unless
> there is a covenated right-of-way.

Having had the wonderful experience happen to me personally in Cabarrus
County, (right outside Charlotte) then I can tell you never owned land next
to a development and was confronted by crews from Duke Energy, the cable
company, the water and sewer people. To top everything off, the developer's
retaining pond broke upstream of my creek and flooded my property,
devastating my creek. There's a cost that can't be accurately accessed since
that one was all about stress.

>
> > As in the case of Portland, many of the cities you cite have
> > limitations controlling sprawl.
>
> No, they don't. They have very specific planning regulations that govern
the
> permitting process, but they DO NOT limit housing development.
>
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_growth_boundary . If Portland's
> > taxes property taxes have fallen then you have just helped to prove
> > my argument that sprawl increases taxes.
>
> Yeah, that sentence makes all sorts of sense.
>
> Wikipedia, that's what we should all rely on as a factual basis to support
> your claims. Let's see now, who has actually developed property in each of
> the examples I've provided? How's about going through the building
> permitting processes in each jurisdiction? Oh, you haven't? Well, that mak
es
> one of us that knows what he's talking about.

Oh, you're a developer. It all makes sense. I have several
developer/buddies. They've found nice little niches in in-fill projects.
Charlotte's become so spread out that the next market seems to be people
moving closer to town. They still enjoy some 'benefits' from the utility
department I would never think about asking for in my own business. In fact,
I'm charged an Impervious Soil tax on vacant land next to our building.
That's supposed to be an impact fee of sorts. Ironically, the land is
forested, but the idiots downtown can't understand that.

Head up I-84 some time towards The Columbia River Gorge and note how
development stops at the county line. See for yourself.

Alan

Sure won't find any answers here.

Alan


"ef_hutterite" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:58:33 -0700, "Dave Bugg" >
> wrote:
>
> >ef_hutterite wrote:
> >
> >> Heh...wonder what easements he has and doesn't knowabout...
> >
> >:-) He needs to look it up on Wikipedia.
>
> <G>
>
>

> "Dave Bugg" > wrote in message

> .... There's a cost
> that can't be accurately accessed since that one was all about stress.

S, it's all about your stress, then. Valium works.

> Oh, you're a developer. It all makes sense.

No.

> I have several developer/buddies. They've found nice little niches in
> in-fill
> projects.

Uh huh. The important point is I ain't yer buddy, and what yer buddies do
has nothing to do with squat.

>Charlotte's become so spread out that the next market seems
> to be people moving closer to town. They still enjoy some 'benefits'
> from the utility department I would never think about asking for in
> my own business. In fact, I'm charged an Impervious Soil tax on
> vacant land next to our building. That's supposed to be an impact fee
> of sorts. Ironically, the land is forested, but the idiots downtown
> can't understand that.

So you hate paying your fair share.

> Head up I-84 some time towards The Columbia River Gorge and note how
> development stops at the county line. See for yourself.

I do that once a month. Most of the land in the Gorge in Multnomah County is
either State of Federal land. No development has ever been able to take
place on it. Private land is still being developed.
--
Dave
www.davebbq.com