The Bay of Abu Qir, Egypt, between the Rosetta mouth of the Nile and
Alexandria, is where the English defeated a French fleet in August
1798.

There is a cake (bombe) which has chestnut cream in it, named Aboukir,
and there is a petit-four made with almond paste and whole almonds,
also named Aboukir.

Any solid proof of a connection between the name of the place and the
name of the two desserts. My Larousse Gastronomique mentions Aboukir
Almonds but gives no background on the name; Alan Davidson is silent
on the topic (in The Penguin Companion to Food). No mention that I can
see in "A Culinary History of Food" (Flandrin et Montanari).

RWO wrote:

> The Bay of Abu Qir, Egypt, between the Rosetta mouth of the Nile and
> Alexandria, is where the English defeated a French fleet in August
> 1798.
>
> There is a cake (bombe) which has chestnut cream in it, named Aboukir,
> and there is a petit-four made with almond paste and whole almonds,
> also named Aboukir.
>
> Any solid proof of a connection between the name of the place and the
> name of the two desserts. My Larousse Gastronomique mentions Aboukir
> Almonds but gives no background on the name; Alan Davidson is silent
> on the topic (in The Penguin Companion to Food). No mention that I can
> see in "A Culinary History of Food" (Flandrin et Montanari).

Try geography as well as history: while California is currently the
world's largest almond producer, Egypt has been an exporter of almonds
for thousands of years. They were growing along the Nile in Biblical
times, along with peaches and apricots. They all figure largely in
North African cookery. The name probably derives from an almond growing
area, and the chestnut cream may originally have been a substitute for a
similar almond paste at a time of war when almonds were hard to come by.

--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 22:07:17 +0100, Kate Dicey
> wrote:

>RWO wrote:
>
>> The Bay of Abu Qir, Egypt, between the Rosetta mouth of the Nile and
>> Alexandria, is where the English defeated a French fleet in August
>> 1798.
>>
>> There is a cake (bombe) which has chestnut cream in it, named Aboukir,
>> and there is a petit-four made with almond paste and whole almonds,
>> also named Aboukir.
>>
>> Any solid proof of a connection between the name of the place and the
>> name of the two desserts. My Larousse Gastronomique mentions Aboukir
>> Almonds but gives no background on the name; Alan Davidson is silent
>> on the topic (in The Penguin Companion to Food). No mention that I can
>> see in "A Culinary History of Food" (Flandrin et Montanari).
>
>Try geography as well as history: while California is currently the
>world's largest almond producer, Egypt has been an exporter of almonds
>for thousands of years. They were growing along the Nile in Biblical
>times, along with peaches and apricots. They all figure largely in
>North African cookery. The name probably derives from an almond growing
>area, and the chestnut cream may originally have been a substitute for a
>similar almond paste at a time of war when almonds were hard to come by.


Hi Kate,

I wondered about that, too, but sources I read indicated that there
didn't seem to be any significant almond production in Egypt itself
before the Romans, despite the usual hyperbole you find on the 'Net,
and there doesn't seem to have been much in the past few hundred
years, either. They seem in Ancient Egyptian times to have largely
been an imported luxury for the very rich. Currently the economy in
the Abu Qir area, (which is now a suburb of Alexandria) appears to
centre on seafood fishing, fertilizer production, and gas wells.

RWO wrote:

> Hi Kate,
>
> I wondered about that, too, but sources I read indicated that there
> didn't seem to be any significant almond production in Egypt itself
> before the Romans, despite the usual hyperbole you find on the 'Net,
> and there doesn't seem to have been much in the past few hundred
> years, either. They seem in Ancient Egyptian times to have largely
> been an imported luxury for the very rich. Currently the economy in
> the Abu Qir area, (which is now a suburb of Alexandria) appears to
> centre on seafood fishing, fertilizer production, and gas wells.

Huh! Progress! Stinks, doesn't it! I'll look into the almond
growing history later, when I have more time.
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

RWO extrapolated from data available...

>
> The Bay of Abu Qir, Egypt, between the Rosetta mouth of the Nile and
> Alexandria, is where the English defeated a French fleet in August
> 1798.
>
> There is a cake (bombe) which has chestnut cream in it, named Aboukir,
> and there is a petit-four made with almond paste and whole almonds,
> also named Aboukir.

Were I guessing (in an educated fashion), I would ascribe the cake to the
fairly common Georgian tradition of naming dishes "featured" at celebratory
dinners for heroes, victories and the like Given the loss by magazine
explosion of the French flagship at Aboukir, a "bombe" seems particulary
fitting type dessert for connection to the naval engagement. Menu items
like this showed up at Lord Mayor's dinners honoring heroes and the like,
and certainly "fit" the tone and tenor of the times.

The almond paste/almond petit four seems more likely a connection between
the substantial almond crop in the area, and the Larouuse entry may well be
the confirming evidence. Aboukir was never much if any of a port, and all
trade in the region flowed through Alex.

>
> Any solid proof of a connection between the name of the place and the
> name of the two desserts. My Larousse Gastronomique mentions Aboukir
> Almonds but gives no background on the name; Alan Davidson is silent
> on the topic (in The Penguin Companion to Food). No mention that I can
> see in "A Culinary History of Food" (Flandrin et Montanari).

TMO

On Tue, 06 Jul 2004 17:13:07 -0500, Olivers >
wrote:

>RWO extrapolated from data available...
>
>>
>> The Bay of Abu Qir, Egypt, between the Rosetta mouth of the Nile and
>> Alexandria, is where the English defeated a French fleet in August
>> 1798.
>>
>> There is a cake (bombe) which has chestnut cream in it, named Aboukir,
>> and there is a petit-four made with almond paste and whole almonds,
>> also named Aboukir.
>
>Were I guessing (in an educated fashion), I would ascribe the cake to the
>fairly common Georgian tradition of naming dishes "featured" at celebratory
>dinners for heroes, victories and the like Given the loss by magazine
>explosion of the French flagship at Aboukir, a "bombe" seems particulary
>fitting type dessert for connection to the naval engagement. Menu items
>like this showed up at Lord Mayor's dinners honoring heroes and the like,
>and certainly "fit" the tone and tenor of the times.
>
>The almond paste/almond petit four seems more likely a connection between
>the substantial almond crop in the area, and the Larouuse entry may well be
>the confirming evidence. Aboukir was never much if any of a port, and all
>trade in the region flowed through Alex.
>
>>
>> Any solid proof of a connection between the name of the place and the
>> name of the two desserts. My Larousse Gastronomique mentions Aboukir
>> Almonds but gives no background on the name; Alan Davidson is silent
>> on the topic (in The Penguin Companion to Food). No mention that I can
>> see in "A Culinary History of Food" (Flandrin et Montanari).
>
>TMO

well-reasoned, but the sticking point is, why would the French name
dishes to commemorate defeats? (after all, there would be so many,
wouldn't there? grin)

RWO wrote:

>
> well-reasoned, but the sticking point is, why would the French name
> dishes to commemorate defeats? (after all, there would be so many,
> wouldn't there? grin)
>
>
At the time, anything English in the way of food was given French names:
despite the French being our sworn enemies, anything French was
fashionable whereas English stuff was deeply ordinary, however good.
The habit of Frenchifying food and recipe names resulted in many English
food inventions being thought erroneously to be French.

Another part to this is that by the time of the victory feast, 'bombe'
would have become a technical term, and there was also the irony of
naming the dish in the defeated enemy's language. Just to rub salt in
their wounds!

It didn't just happen with food. Many women's fashion and garment terms
are French as well, or can be traced to French influence. Empire line
dresses, for example, where there is a seam just under the bust, and
which were so fashionable in the 1800-1820 period, started in France but
were the only accepted fashion in Great Britain and much of Europe, and
were named for the empire of Napoleon in which the fashion started.

Names happen for social and political reasons as much as for their place
of origin.
--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

Kate Dicey extrapolated from data available...


>
> Names happen for social and political reasons as much as for their place
> of origin.

I then conclude that the possibility of the dessert being named for the
battle is a possibility worth investigation. Certainly, even in 1800, the
culinary vocabulary of affluent English households had a "Frenchified"
touch.

The petit four, almonds on almonds, seems of later origin, and as "Turkish"
apricots, "Mocha" coffee, etc., may have "place or origin" foundation, or a
"Berliner" is or is not a doughnut, or better is it Arbroath (sp?)
smokies?....

TMO

RWO > wrote in
:

> well-reasoned, but the sticking point is, why would the French
> name dishes to commemorate defeats? (after all, there would be so
> many, wouldn't there? grin)

Actually, that's fairly narrow thinking on your part :-)

The British fleet destroyed the French fleet on 1-2 August 1798.
However, the French *had* a victory at Abu Qir, on 25 July 1799.

For the linguistically impaired, this is roughly translated from:

http://aigleconquerant.free.fr/batailles/aboukir.htm

An army of 15000 Turks, escorted by the British admiral Sydney Smith
and commanded by Mustapha Pasha, disembarked at Aboukir on 15 July
(1799) and comandeered the fort. Bonaparte attacked on 25 July,
without waiting for Kléber (a seemingly common behaviour on his
part), with 10000 foot soldiers and the 1000 cavalry of Murat. The
latter charged the fort and took Mustapha prisoner. The Turks
routed. Some sought refuge in the fort but were forced to capitulate
a week later. Bonaparte returned to France as the news of this
victory was made known.

So there...there's your French victory. Don't always make the easy
assumption that it's only about ONE thing. Bonaparte won many more
battles than he lost which is why he was reviled and considered a
threat to English ambitions. Also, he is probably the most
celebrated commander in terms of names for food items related to his
battles.

--

Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?

Gimli, son of Gloín

RWO > wrote in
:

> well-reasoned, but the sticking point is, why would the French
> name dishes to commemorate defeats? (after all, there would be so
> many, wouldn't there? grin)

Actually, that's fairly narrow thinking on your part :-)

The British fleet destroyed the French fleet on 1-2 August 1798.
However, the French *had* a victory at Abu Qir, on 25 July 1799.

For the linguistically impaired, this is roughly translated from:

http://aigleconquerant.free.fr/batailles/aboukir.htm

An army of 15000 Turks, escorted by the British admiral Sydney Smith
and commanded by Mustapha Pasha, disembarked at Aboukir on 15 July
(1799) and comandeered the fort. Bonaparte attacked on 25 July,
without waiting for Kléber (a seemingly common behaviour on his
part), with 10000 foot soldiers and the 1000 cavalry of Murat. The
latter charged the fort and took Mustapha prisoner. The Turks
routed. Some sought refuge in the fort but were forced to capitulate
a week later. Bonaparte returned to France as the news of this
victory was made known.

So there...there's your French victory. Don't always make the easy
assumption that it's only about ONE thing. Bonaparte won many more
battles than he lost which is why he was reviled and considered a
threat to English ambitions. Also, he is probably the most
celebrated commander in terms of names for food items related to his
battles.

--

Certainty of death. Small chance of success. What are we waiting for?

Gimli, son of Gloín

Olivers wrote:

> Kate Dicey extrapolated from data available...
>
>
>
>>Names happen for social and political reasons as much as for their place
>>of origin.
>
>
> I then conclude that the possibility of the dessert being named for the
> battle is a possibility worth investigation. Certainly, even in 1800, the
> culinary vocabulary of affluent English households had a "Frenchified"
> touch.
>
> The petit four, almonds on almonds, seems of later origin, and as "Turkish"
> apricots, "Mocha" coffee, etc., may have "place or origin" foundation, or a
> "Berliner" is or is not a doughnut, or better is it Arbroath (sp?)
> smokies?....
>
> TMO

The only Arbroath smokies come from Arbroath - the name is protected,
like Wensleydale cheese. Dunno about the others!


--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

Olivers wrote:

> Kate Dicey extrapolated from data available...
>
>
>
>>Names happen for social and political reasons as much as for their place
>>of origin.
>
>
> I then conclude that the possibility of the dessert being named for the
> battle is a possibility worth investigation. Certainly, even in 1800, the
> culinary vocabulary of affluent English households had a "Frenchified"
> touch.
>
> The petit four, almonds on almonds, seems of later origin, and as "Turkish"
> apricots, "Mocha" coffee, etc., may have "place or origin" foundation, or a
> "Berliner" is or is not a doughnut, or better is it Arbroath (sp?)
> smokies?....
>
> TMO

The only Arbroath smokies come from Arbroath - the name is protected,
like Wensleydale cheese. Dunno about the others!


--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

> The only Arbroath smokies come from Arbroath - the name is protected,
> like Wensleydale cheese.

Which must really **** off the people of Auchmithie as they invented
them.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

> The only Arbroath smokies come from Arbroath - the name is protected,
> like Wensleydale cheese.

Which must really **** off the people of Auchmithie as they invented
them.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

bogus address wrote:

>>The only Arbroath smokies come from Arbroath - the name is protected,
>>like Wensleydale cheese.
>
>
> Which must really **** off the people of Auchmithie as they invented
> them.
>
> ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.
>
Probably! They should have got a better publicity manager!

--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

bogus address wrote:

>>The only Arbroath smokies come from Arbroath - the name is protected,
>>like Wensleydale cheese.
>
>
> Which must really **** off the people of Auchmithie as they invented
> them.
>
> ========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
> Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
> <http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
> Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.
>
Probably! They should have got a better publicity manager!

--
Kate XXXXXX
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.diceyhome.free-online.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!